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Drastic13
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Posted - 2010.06.30 23:37:00 -
[1]
Assuming both are tricked out with nice mods... How much better for fast killing Lvl 4's is a CNR over a Tengu? Im not talking about blitzing necessarily, cuz I salvage (just FYI)
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knentil
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Posted - 2010.07.01 01:11:00 -
[2]
Edited by: knentil on 01/07/2010 01:15:03 Im not sure a CNR comes close to the DPS of a Heavy Missile II tengu.
Ill check.
Edit: with the fits I can come up with: getting about 790 DPS with tengu ( I think was also with +5% ROF and +5% Heavy DMg) 917 DPS with CNR
Using faction BCU's and T2 missiles
your DPS will but much high with T2 torps, but most ppl don't like the range sufferage.
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Drastic13
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Posted - 2010.07.01 01:36:00 -
[3]
Thx for the reply... I didn't realize they'd be so close in dps.
Is there any other factor to consider that would widen the gap in kill speed?
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Yoinkerman
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Posted - 2010.07.01 02:18:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Yoinkerman on 01/07/2010 02:21:10 Depends on what you like essentially.
If you want to stand in one spot and be a turret, use the cnr.
If you want to press buttons and play the game, a tengu.
A tengu has a higher ROF while applying lower volley dmg while the cnr has higher volley dmg with slower ROF.
They both have around the same missile explosion radius.
And the cnr has drones. Which really helps against elite frigates.
EDIT: it's only the same radius if you use cn missiles instead of t2 cruise. If you use t2 fury the applied dps against anything lower than smaller than a BC it drops ridiculously low.
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stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.07.01 04:32:00 -
[5]
Try this thread for more info on Tengu vs CNR.
Basically, a Tengu's HMLs can achieve the same killing power as the CNR's cruise missiles, but only with kinetic missiles, and the CNR has light drones with which to kill frigs in parallel and the option to use three sentries to supplement firepower.
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:02:00 -
[6]
I use tengu with HAM missiles. range 44km, DPS 988 with implants. Tengu > CNR for sure
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IR Seriouscat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:29:00 -
[7]
And 0 dps over 44km. CNR>Tengu for sure.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.01 06:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: knentil but most ppl don't like the range sufferage.
I hate it when range votes. Ruins all the elections.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 07:08:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/07/2010 07:11:27
Originally by: PokinoCupra I use tengu with HAM missiles. range 44km, DPS 988 with implants. Tengu > CNR for sure
First, lets agree that your theoretical 988 DPS comes from 6 HAMs (Terror Rage), 4 CN BCUs, ZME2000, ZMM1000, [ZMS1000]. Comments: - Your HAM Tengu reloads every [0.75 / 0.015] * 1.94098 = 97 seconds. A comparative CNR reloads [1.35/0.05] * 6.40524 = 172 seconds. From experience, the Tengu usually has to reload in every room where the CNR either doesn't have to reload in the mission or can reload between rooms. This means that your 988 Kin DPS becomes 896 Kin DPS to the CNRs 838+99 (assuming Hobs). I'm sorry if this seems unfair to you, but Them's The Breaks. - Due to an extremely high ROF, your Tengu (HML or HAM!) has a high propensity to wasting volleys. Wasted volleys further lower your DPS. - Your HAM Tengu lacks proper damage type selection. Best case scenario you're "on an even footing" and facing kinetic weak enemies like Guristas/Serpentis - but in you've got at least even odds of losing 15-20% of your DPS relative to being able to shoot the Best Resist. - Regardless of your 45km range, I know for sure that you're wasting time approaching enemies because of HAM's lower range. This can be mitigated, but it cannot be eliminated. This is the same problem that ends up hurting the Golem - except that you'll find yourself way off the next gate in the Tengu while the Golem never really moved off the next gate. - The Tengu (especially a HAM variant) has to move. This makes for flat more effort to run the mission than a CNR. - The Tengu must shoot frigs - either because its catastrophic to the tank or because the next gate won't unlock without them dead. Either way you waste time locking and shooting frigs that a CNR doesn't have to. - The Tengu can't properly make use of a painter because the Tengu's ROF so drastically exceeds a painter's cycle time. This can be mitigated but it cannot be eliminated. This actually ends up hurting the Tengu's effective damage more than the larger explo velocity/radius hurts the CNR. - Consider a T2 Accelerator. And HML.
TL;DR: The HAM Tengu is only better in the eyes of EFT Warriors who can't properly conceptualize what the numbers mean. The extra range from HML compared to the extra damage from HAMs makes HML actually a better choice most of the time.
-Liang
Ed: Moar Reasons! -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 07:52:00 -
[10]
nice post over there. and have you tryed tengu? i guess not when you posted that. i dont care about reload time. also your DPS on CNR....your DRONES 99DPS have to travel till they hit target (of course frigs will come close but till they come it will take some time so your 99DPS is 0 DPS for some time), also i can say to your DPS math that time you will need to align and warp ill be already on mish and ill kill 3 BS when you enter pocket ^^ most of mishs im STANDING on one place, most of enemies are in range of HAM, depends on tactics. warp in, kill BS that will orbit at 44km+, then kill others. i dont use TP, i use WEB, its way more better than singe TP, and it have shorter cycle times. if you care about range you can go for HML tengu with like 840 dps at 100+km. but...why when 44 is enough.
about traveling....if i need to catch some NPC, im goin 600+m/s its pretty fast btw. i dont say that CNR is bad, its good ship, but tengu is better. Nice DPS, Fast travel, HUGE tank....what else you need.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:04:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 01/07/2010 08:05:35
Originally by: PokinoCupra nice post over there. and have you tryed tengu? i guess not when you posted that.
Yes, I have. That's why I'm able to rattle off some of the things that aren't immediately obvious via EFT. :)
Quote: i dont care about reload time.
Then you're a fool.
Quote: also your DPS on CNR....your DRONES 99DPS have to travel till they hit target (of course frigs will come close but till they come it will take some time so your 99DPS is 0 DPS for some time)
Sure, its true... but its still free DPS in excess of the Tengu's.
Quote: also i can say to your DPS math that time you will need to align and warp ill be already on mish and ill kill 3 BS when you enter pocket ^^
You have potentially a 7-14 second advantage over the CNR (12.4-5.4).
Quote: most of mishs im STANDING on one place, most of enemies are in range of HAM, depends on tactics. warp in, kill BS that will orbit at 44km+, then kill others.
Cool now you're wasting time just like the Golem does. That's the reason people choose a CNR over the higher damaging Golem.
Quote: i dont use TP, i use WEB, its way more better than singe TP, and it have shorter cycle times.
Awesome, now you just have to wait until it gets in range and then wait a few more seconds for the other ship to slow down enough to make a difference... unlike with a painter which is immediately available.
Quote: if you care about range you can go for HML tengu with like 840 dps at 100+km. but...why when 44 is enough.
Because 44km categorically is not enough.
Quote: about traveling....if i need to catch some NPC, im goin 600+m/s its pretty fast btw.
600 m/s << 8860 m/s. What, you thought your HAM Tengu was faster than a cruise missile?
Quote: i dont say that CNR is bad, its good ship, but tengu is better.
No...... it isn't.
Quote: Nice DPS, Fast travel, HUGE tank....what else you need.
Variable damage types, hardly ever having to move, drones so you don't have to **** around with frigs, not having to reload in every room....
-Liang
Ed: Oh, better/easier logistics too. It's a ****ing PITA to cart so many T2 missiles around! The Tengu really chews through them.... :) -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: PokinoCupra nice post over there. and have you tryed tengu? i guess not when you posted that. i dont care about reload time. also your DPS on CNR....your DRONES 99DPS have to travel till they hit target (of course frigs will come close but till they come it will take some time so your 99DPS is 0 DPS for some time), also i can say to your DPS math that time you will need to align and warp ill be already on mish and ill kill 3 BS when you enter pocket ^^ most of mishs im STANDING on one place, most of enemies are in range of HAM, depends on tactics. warp in, kill BS that will orbit at 44km+, then kill others. i dont use TP, i use WEB, its way more better than singe TP, and it have shorter cycle times. if you care about range you can go for HML tengu with like 840 dps at 100+km. but...why when 44 is enough.
about traveling....if i need to catch some NPC, im goin 600+m/s its pretty fast btw. i dont say that CNR is bad, its good ship, but tengu is better. Nice DPS, Fast travel, HUGE tank....what else you need.
Please share the 840DPS HML Tengu fit, I can only do 715 with 4 CNBCUs and 6 T2 launchers with Fury Scourges. Thanks.
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PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:15:00 -
[13]
tengu can lock targets faster, thats also advantage when take into consideration relative DPS, about aligning. now are most of mishs 1 jump away, so thats aligning to gate and then to pocket. so it will be more seconds :) and if is some BS really far....i just use javelin missilles for that one target.
tengu is more practical ship. you can swap subsystems and go plexing into 0,0, in your CNR its just risky and probably it will not stand that damage, so tengu is like many ships in one and you are not forced to buy another ones for that. So Tengu > CNR.
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PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:21:00 -
[14]
842 max dps = 4x CN BCU, T2 bay loading acc, implants ZMM1000 and ZHM2000, range 113,9 km.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: PokinoCupra tengu can lock targets faster
Lock time is a total non-issue after the first couple seconds of the mission (and even then its pretty fast given you're locking battleships). The only reason you're so hot over lock time (which I already addressed, mind you) is because the Tengu has to lock frigates.
Quote: about aligning. now are most of mishs 1 jump away, so thats aligning to gate and then to pocket. so it will be more seconds :)
Station, Gate, mission Gate. 21 seconds in your scenario.
Quote: and if is some BS really far....i just use javelin missilles for that one target.
You just wasted 20 seconds on reloading.
Quote: tengu is more practical ship. you can swap subsystems and go plexing into 0,0, in your CNR its just risky and probably it will not stand that damage, so tengu is like many ships in one and you are not forced to buy another ones for that.
This is a TOTAL FAIL of a reason. You should never mix your mission and 0.0 NPCing ships - and ultimately if you have to dock then you might as well have gotten a different ship.
Quote: So Tengu > CNR.
No... it really isn't.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: PokinoCupra tengu can lock targets faster, thats also advantage when take into consideration relative DPS,
That's only a concern when you first enter a room, after that it only matters if you kill targets faster than you can lock them. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:45:00 -
[17]
So much theorycrafting and no timed l4s with full skilled tengus and cnrs with 5% hardwirings and t2 rigs. Somebody with sisi installed go test it in some caldari missions /assault, extravaganza.../ so we can see the difference.
No one so far answered ops question how much faster cnr is...
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PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 08:55:00 -
[18]
Ok so lets say this.
L4 blockade, 0 jumps to mish. total time 21 minutes in tengu. ALL targets dead. Your time in CNR?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: PokinoCupra Ok so lets say this.
L4 blockade, 0 jumps to mish. total time 21 minutes in tengu. ALL targets dead. Your time in CNR?
Which blockade?
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:11:00 -
[20]
Edited by: PokinoCupra on 01/07/2010 09:12:46 your CNR is dealing all dmg types so does it matter? :)
L4 serpentis blockade. im in gallente space (for now) im declining mishs against drones, amar, caldari. most of mishs i have against serpentis / mordus so i use just full potential of ship. once per some time i get sansha slave trader. but thats quick one, part 2/2 is really tough but my shield does not drop below 85%. i know some ppl that had to warp out of that one in raven / CNR
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TriIIian
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:13:00 -
[21]
CNR DPS with medium drones 996DPS out to a range of 93 km
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GyokZoli
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: PokinoCupra 842 max dps = 4x CN BCU, T2 bay loading acc, implants ZMM1000 and ZHM2000, range 113,9 km.
Ahh, ok. But implants don't matter since you can also use 'em for the CNR.
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PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:29:00 -
[23]
Edited by: PokinoCupra on 01/07/2010 09:31:30 Edited by: PokinoCupra on 01/07/2010 09:30:39
Originally by: TriIIian CNR DPS with medium drones 996DPS out to a range of 93 km
and i bet you have all skills at lvl V. im not saying that tengu is WAY MORE BETTER, its just a little bit better. but still is
please dont spam anymore. put here your mishion times in CNR and we will see.
to HML tengu, its max possible DPS it can have for reasonable price. you can put there 4x estamels BCU for better dps :D
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.07.01 09:45:00 -
[24]
Originally by: PokinoCupra im not saying that tengu is WAY MORE BETTER, its just a little bit better. but still is
àexcept for the time you have to waste getting in range, switching missiles, ineffectually chasing small targets, wasting DPS even on large targets, and all that other stuff that makes it slower.
You see, DPS is only good if you can apply it. The Tengu you describe cannot, and what it can apply only happens in short bursts. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 10:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: PokinoCupra im not saying that tengu is WAY MORE BETTER, its just a little bit better. but still is
àexcept for the time you have to waste getting in range, switching missiles, ineffectually chasing small targets, wasting DPS even on large targets, and all that other stuff that makes it slower.
You see, DPS is only good if you can apply it. The Tengu you describe cannot, and what it can apply only happens in short bursts.
switching missiles...that happends just 0-1x per mish. most of time im standing on one place or moving while shooting and i have no "dead minutes" while im not shooting. chasing small targets? frigates run from you? they are max 9km or so. destroyers are on 14km. if you know how to do mish in short range tengu, then its good. and you will learn that in short time.
really show me time for that L4 blockade in your CNR, dunno if other blockades differ from serp one..... so if you do it nowdays just post your time.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.07.01 10:16:00 -
[26]
Originally by: PokinoCupra [switching missiles...that happends just 0-1x per mish.
Then guess what: you're not getting the DPS you're claiming.
Quote: chasing small targets? frigates run from you? they are max 9km or so. destroyers are on 14km.
No, your missiles are ineffectually chasing small targets (and you're tying up your main damage dealer with something it's not well suited for), when other ships wouldn't have to give them a second thought because those small targets will automatically almost without any need for user input.
Quote: really show me time for that L4 blockade in your CNR, dunno if other blockades differ from serp one.....
I don't ever get any L4 blockades, nor do I fly a CNR, but yes, they're all slightly different from one another. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
PokinoCupra
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Posted - 2010.07.01 10:27:00 -
[27]
and you want to tell me that you are getting 100% from your dps right? even your drones are nonstop working on 100% right? :D ok ty for nice conversation. give here some times and not just words.
fly safe
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Backho
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Posted - 2010.07.01 10:30:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Backho on 01/07/2010 10:30:53
Quote: mission times and we see
This is my Raven mission times. Cruise CNR will be slightly faster for battle missions Torp CNR will make damsel incredibly fast.
3.1m SP IV missile support skills. 3% implants IV drone interface. T1 Drones
Mission NameTimes recon 1/311 recon 2/37 recon 3/38 (100mn AB Drake) Infil outpost12 right Zazz7 duo death7 Unauthorize MP9 Assault8 Damsel14 Cargo delivery6 Gurista Spies 7 Intercept Sabo10 Gone Berserk8 Smug Int16 Pirate Inv9 Massive Atk15 Stop thief7 Angel Ext28 R-Slave trader 1/26 (10mn MWD Drake) R-slave traer 2/29 Rogue Drone H15 Gurista EXT19 The score17 Vengeance22 Wildcat strike9 (10mn AB Drake) Attack of the Drone8 World collide18-20 (depending if the A-spies web or not)
All missions taken one jump. From journal start time, to time i click "mission completed"
Avg isk/hour across 3-6 hours gameplay (I stop after a storyline and a half) = 45-50m consistent isk/hour not counting loot, with 1k ISK/LP conversion.
Skipped Enemies Abound Silence the infor Courrier M's
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Poeser Rufus
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Posted - 2010.07.01 10:35:00 -
[29]
ITT: PokinoCupra trolling in Liangs Backyard...
You can argue bout anything in S&M or M&C, but when it comes to Level 4 Mission times in CNR/TENGU/GOLEM you really should believe Liang
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Free Machine
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Posted - 2010.07.01 10:45:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Free Machine on 01/07/2010 10:45:47 I just quited my caldari missioning char and bought this laser missioning char.
But i can confirm what liang said. I have maxed out missile and support skills for cnr and tengu but never went for golem due to range restrictions.
I have tried the HAM tengu but found that it is not better then CNR against non kinetic weak Npc and even against kinetic weak Npc's my time was slightly slower or just on par with the CNR.
You can argue as much as you like but i did a lifetime of missions in caldari space against gurista and other npc factions and i say that 40 km ++ is not enough.
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