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mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:12:00 -
[121]
Originally by: SencneS Why I'm getting lectured on how to personally value my time is astonishing...
Because you are using it as argument in a discussion about the profitability of PI and whether it is a viable income source compared to other proffessions, based on ACTIVE time spent setting it up and maintaining it.
You don't see me using some ****ed up argument about my time spent pvping and calculating profitability on that. Then using some formula based on that and my personal preference of pvping in an attempt to estimate the tendency of ppl doing PI or not at current product value.
I really, REALLY, hope you are trolling because the level of stupidity in your posts and the amount of posting is starting to resemble the forum version of a bad case of diarrhea.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:19:00 -
[122]
Originally by: mental maverick Because you are using it as argument in a discussion about the profitability of PI and whether it is a viable income source compared to other proffessions, based on ACTIVE time spent setting it up and maintaining it.
err no, someone proclaimed I value my time as "free" I mealy said no it has cost, and this is how it costs..
So nice try but you're wrong. It wasn't used in any way about profitability of PI. It's was mentioned because someone said my time was free..
Amarr for Life |
Dr Oktober
Analogue Limited Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:31:00 -
[123]
So in other words, yes you did use it an argument.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:44:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Dr Oktober So in other words, yes you did use it an argument.
That would only be correct if I had said - "Everyone should be using this forumla to calculate their PI profitability." Which I have never said. And I wouldn't be so stupid as to say "Everyone is valuing their time in PI." Because I know some people value their time as "Free".
What you and others are apprently trying to do is shove words into my mouth, in which I will happy point to the fact that the whole time I'm saying "If I wanted to..." or "Here is how I would personally...". Which is something you and the few posters above are missing..
The PI Profitability is just that, PI Profitability before the "Value of time" is even included, why? Because everyone values their own personal time differently. What they personally have to determine is --> IF <-- they where looking at PI, what is the BASE (Which I've given) and then take out their very own time cost..
So you can stop trying to shove words into my mouth they don't fit.
Amarr for Life |
RAW23
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:52:00 -
[125]
Edited by: RAW23 on 09/07/2010 16:52:50 Edited my previous post to correct the typo.
But, that aside, your formula still has it that the cost of your time is lower the more you make per active hour.
As to it being a personal approach, that doesn't protect it from charges of not making sense. People are just pointing out to you that if you choose to value your time in this way then you choose to value your time irrationally.
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Dr Oktober
Analogue Limited Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.09 16:55:00 -
[126]
Me? first time I've posted in this thread an I'm not trying to shove anything in anyone's mouth.
Just saying that your statement of not using the argument of your price/time is patently false. You did use it in an argument, in your own defence.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:05:00 -
[127]
Originally by: RAW23 But, that aside, your formula still has it that the cost of your time is lower the more you make per active hour.
As to it being a personal approach, that doesn't protect it from charges of not making sense. People are just pointing out to you that if you choose to value your time in this way then you choose to value your time irrationally.
I don't consider it irrational, I'm more of a manufacturer at heart.. Where ISK/Hour/Slot is very much an accepted calculation to determine of a BPO's "Value" in production. It certainly helped me determine which missile I should manufacture first when I ran that 200+ item munition business.
Applying that same concept to time for everything else is hardly irrational. Manufactures look at "Overall sale/profit (Depends on who you are) of the manufactured item" / Total time it takes to make = ISK/Hour/Slot. That's how much that BPO is worth per hour in production. So taking that same concept and applying it to "Personal Time" is as valid as any other personal time valuation method.. How you can call it irrational is a bit of a stretch. RAW, Come on dude we know each other better then this..
Amarr for Life |
mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:30:00 -
[128]
Originally by: SencneS So you can stop trying to shove words into my mouth they don't fit.
I don't know about that seeing as it does look more than big enough...
Cba to quote all the stupid stuff you've posted in this, and other threads on the same topic, but it started with you making the statement "20k for GSs, in your dreams!"
At which point it was explained to you that 20k is probably only half way to its true value, with a slight disregard for stockpiles, considering the effort required to produce them.
This is when you post your setup as to how you would do it and the amount of active time required to maintain said setup. Turns out you made about 25 mil per active h according to your estimates, which I thought were a bit optimistic but ok. 25 mil per active h is still not very good compared to other professions in EVE, which was subsequently explained to you.
And que your flawed formula for valuing time, as an argument, in extent, defending your "20k GSs, in your dreams!" statement.
And now I really am getting worried I'm being trolled, cause this is getting quite ridiculous tbh...
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:33:00 -
[129]
Edited by: RAW23 on 09/07/2010 17:33:58
Originally by: SencneS How you can call it irrational is a bit of a stretch. RAW, Come on dude we know each other better then this..
I've got to be honest, it's because I have been reading and responding to your posts for a while now that I don't hesitate to call some of your views irrational.
That's not to say I don't appreciate some of your posting, especially concerning information about ebank. It's just your reasoning I find consistently problematic.
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Darthion Illys
Amarr Tyrans d'Or Tyrans d'0r
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Posted - 2010.07.09 17:35:00 -
[130]
Edited by: Darthion Illys on 09/07/2010 17:35:37 Guidance Systems are now up to 14.8k/u, btw.
What that means, is that you -should- have bought it at 7k/u, where/when SencneS said you shouldn't.
Update - Typos and stuff.
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Grozen
Caldari Titan Core New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:04:00 -
[131]
Its still not to late to enter cuz its going to 45k-60k/pu and that's the minimum.Nobody that is making it will bother selling it at produce price. knowledge is power |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:16:00 -
[132]
Originally by: mental maverick stuff
The problem is you're mixing two conversations into one.
The last 2-3 pages have been mostly about how I value and calculate my own personal time. It's actually been pretty detrailing all things considered.
None the less, the whole "Value of time" started back on page 3 post 67 As you can see I replied to Kieselguhr Kid who said and I quote
Originally by: Kieselguhr Kid "It doesn't matter what it costs to produce if you buy the items, because my time is free"
That's actually the single point in which the discussion has turned into TWO different points. On post 71, Kieselguhr Kid actually said "you are correct; using this calculation, your time is not free." It actually tried to go a different route again at that point, when he introduced the "I'm making P3 instead of selling the more profitable P2" people then commented on how onlu 900K per hour is so little. The discussion actually went on this line not even really mentioning Guidance Systems just how time little 900K is all the way till I attempted to bring the discussion back to Guidance Systems on post 87 Which didn't even mention Time value and the sheet I had created at the time didn't even include any concept of it.
However, this doesn't stop people harping on how I value time. Maria Yumeno and I have been trying to keep the thread about Guidance System actually discussing setups and logistics chains for Planets to make Guidance Systems the most optimal way. The whole time not even mentioning anything to do with the value of time.
Post 99, yet again another Goon talking about profitability but it's more of a troll on how the P2s are worth more, even though that "tertiary" discussion ended 28 posts before hand, goons in their sheep ways posted for 5 posts about it, I simple ignored them.
Then RAW comes in fires up a question about how I value time, in his post he doesn't even mention anything to do with PI, just literally wants to know why I value my time that way. The thread is detailed again, despite almost a page of Maria Yumeno and I talking about Guidance Systems planets and their optimal setups. Actually from that point PI is not even the focus of discussion it's just about how time is valued.
Now there is a real LOOSE connection to PI, but it's like everyone talking hypothetically about how time should be calculated and using the original number I spat out about how profitable Guidance Systems are. No where is it really stated that value of time was included as part of PI profitability. That's actually kinda dangerous because people do value their time differently.
I don't know how you value you time, I really don't care so I'm not going to tell you how you should value you time. What I can tell you is, if you build Guidance Systems and when you go to sell them here is what you could make. I'm always careful to not assume anyone's value of time. In fact the PI Profitability is totally missing value of time, how many clicks it would it take, how much hauling, how much market activity.
You can think Kieselguhr Kid for derailing the thread the first time, RAW23 for derailing it the second, but I have to tell ya, You're also detrailing it now. Of cause I accept full responsibility for assisting in the detailing by continuing to reply to yours, RAW's and anyone who questions how I value my time personally.
Amarr for Life |
Sol Fallstaff
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:26:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Sol Fallstaff on 09/07/2010 18:26:53 Why would anyone want to make it at the price its currently at ?, if you did need some for production you'd be better off using the raw materials to build another item in the same tier which is selling for a decent price and buying the Guidance Systems you need.. least this way you'll get a lot more of them than you would by making them
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:32:00 -
[134]
Edited by: SencneS on 09/07/2010 18:32:53
Originally by: Sol Fallstaff Why would anyone want to make it at the price its currently at ?, if you did need some for production you'd be better off using the raw materials to build another item in the same tier which is selling for a decent price and buying the Guidance Systems you need.. least this way you'll get a lot more of them than you would by making them
You wouldn't, there is plenty of other things that are better. But if you wanted to, you'd have to do what I did and find out how much it'll make a month. I pointed this out long ago, but as usually the real useful information is lose in a sea of trolls.
This is why I suggested if you where going to make these you should use a supply chain with a stop-gap. Like a Production planet in which you build the P1/P2 then P3 later. You never know at any time the Goons dreams could come true and these thing are worth 100K a piece in which you could easily switch to making these thing. But until that point the best thing would be literally use stop-gap so the P2s are not automatically fed into the Advance Processor.
That's what I've kinda recommended, but the whole point is. If someone WAS to make them now, how much profit could they get. Well the sheet I created is now broken because I played with it too much so don't use that. Use your own calculation.
Amarr for Life |
Icanti
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:42:00 -
[135]
Originally by: SencneS You never know at any time the Goons dreams could come true
I would just like to point out, I am not a goon, or the alt of a goon.
Just someone who looked at the market and wondered what the hell was going on.
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Kieselguhr Kid
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:46:00 -
[136]
Originally by: SencneS
However, this doesn't stop people harping on how I value time. Maria Yumeno and I have been trying to keep the thread about Guidance System actually discussing setups and logistics chains for Planets to make Guidance Systems the most optimal way.
How to make GS in the most optimal way:
1)buy them from the market for anything under 44k a unit rather than lose money producing them
you're welcome
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Phoebe Halliwel
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:48:00 -
[137]
SencneS, if those posts were about how you value your time; either assert that and walk away or engage in a dialogue and expect criticism, you don't have to take criticisms personally.
People who post "their formula" for activity tend to imply theirs is either the best way, or optimal, then rationalise why or ask for feedback. Problem seems to be here, other people comment to you that yours appears irrational, and you are unwilling to accept it except by stating it's personal preference, then going into more detail to explain your rationale. There's nothing to debate then is there? If you want to debate it, take the criticism on board, if not just stop posting to justify yourself. No one else has really had opportunity to post their formula for calculating PI profitability in terms of time spent active/inactive because the discussion is almost a monologue from you.
I've used a few irrational formulas myself on occasion, others probably do, but it's not worth posting them on the eve-o forums, as they wont get any constructive feedback and I'm not interested in any in the first place. If it works for me that's all I need. Who cares what other people think, do you really need their approval either way? Can't really use a personal standard to debunk someone else's argument.... if it makes no sense to anyone else or they refuse to accept it's validity.
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pmchem
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:55:00 -
[138]
Originally by: SencneS
You can thank Kieselguhr Kid for derailing the thread the first time, RAW23 for derailing it the second
Can I please get an honorable mention for my top of page 2 post? Come on man.
Your isk/hour estimate is shortsighted because you fail to take into account the real value of the intermediates you produce -- and own. Say it's a 2 step process, state 1-->2-->3. You are calculating profits for the process "1-->3". But it's possible to calculate profits for "1-->2" and "2-->3". When "2-->3" is negative, you really should just stop at "1-->2" unless you want to make profits disappear (like ebank did with its investors' isk).
This has been stated about 5 different ways but you seem to refuse to come to terms with it.
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Time2Whine
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Posted - 2010.07.09 18:59:00 -
[139]
Originally by: SencneS
You can thank Kieselguhr Kid for derailing the thread the first time, RAW23 for derailing it the second
This thread would be doing a lot better if you gave up trying to save face in it... just sayin'...
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mental maverick
Duty. Duty. Private Security
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Posted - 2010.07.09 19:27:00 -
[140]
As I said before, I cba to cross reference everything you posted SencneS as my only means of internet is currently my phone and its a pita to do.
But pls, for the love of god man, read your posts again on pages 2 and 3. I get the feeling you only see the parts of your, and others, posts that is of benefit to you in your argument.
Way before anybody was questioning your way of valuing time you clearly stated that you thought 20k GSs wasn't a possibility and proceeded to use your own planet setup to back it up.
How is it that you don't see this? I'm really at a loss here as to how to explain the flaws in your argument. It's like your deaf to anything else but your own voice, and even then you only hear what you want to hear.
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.09 19:41:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel SencneS, if those posts were about how you value your time; either assert that and walk away or engage in a dialogue and expect criticism, you don't have to take criticisms personally.
People who post "their formula" for activity tend to imply theirs is either the best way, or optimal, then rationalise why or ask for feedback. Problem seems to be here, other people comment to you that yours appears irrational, and you are unwilling to accept it except by stating it's personal preference, then going into more detail to explain your rationale. There's nothing to debate then is there? If you want to debate it, take the criticism on board, if not just stop posting to justify yourself. No one else has really had opportunity to post their formula for calculating PI profitability in terms of time spent active/inactive because the discussion is almost a monologue from you.
I've used a few irrational formulas myself on occasion, others probably do, but it's not worth posting them on the eve-o forums, as they wont get any constructive feedback and I'm not interested in any in the first place. If it works for me that's all I need. Who cares what other people think, do you really need their approval either way? Can't really use a personal standard to debunk someone else's argument.... if it makes no sense to anyone else or they refuse to accept it's validity.
That wasn't really the case though, I didn't say "Here this is the best formula", it was simply posted to as a rebuttal to someone believing I value my time free. One, I might add, that I do put a cost on my time. I even asked how other people value their time. Go look for yourself if you don't believe its in there. Only a couple replied. Now you'll probably roll your eyes at this, but in case you missed it, apart from Mme and RAW literally who had legitimate questions as to why, the rest of the posts where nothing but trolls and I actually ignored almost all of them. You want me to ignore those people who are legitimately interested in why I do that? WHY being the key here. RAW even said "I'm Struggling to work out why you put these two numbers together..." What you're suggesting is I just ignore that, that's kinda rude don't you think?
Despite what you're suggesting I have read what others suggest, or even pointed out why they think my calculations are incorrect. And sure I've tried to justify one of two. Why? Because I don't think they quiet understand where I'm coming from. Calling it irrational really rubbed me the wrong way because the whole "He is doing something irrational" is a an odd argument. What may seem irrational to someone maybe completely rational to them. I can tell from your post you would understand that.
What I don't understand is why you choose to post when you clearly didn't read the whole subsection of posts on this thread about it. Not the first time you've chosen to intellectuality troll me when you didn't read the thread. You might want to do that next time.
Amarr for Life |
Phoebe Halliwel
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Posted - 2010.07.09 20:19:00 -
[142]
Originally by: SencneS What may seem irrational to someone maybe completely rational to them. I can tell from your post you would understand that.
I do, just don't know if there's much point trying to convince others in a public setting, when their opinion is irrelevant anyway (depending on how needy you are for their approval).
Originally by: SencneS What I don't understand is why you choose to post when you clearly didn't read the whole subsection of posts on this thread about it. Not the first time you've chosen to intellectuality troll me when you didn't read the thread. You might want to do that next time.
I'm not reading that drivel again!
I don't understand why you post either, so let's leave it at that
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.07.09 20:22:00 -
[143]
Edited by: SencneS on 09/07/2010 20:23:11
Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel
Originally by: SencneS What may seem irrational to someone maybe completely rational to them. I can tell from your post you would understand that.
I do, just don't know if there's much point trying to convince others in a public setting, when their opinion is irrelevant anyway (depending on how needy you are for their approval).
Originally by: SencneS What I don't understand is why you choose to post when you clearly didn't read the whole subsection of posts on this thread about it. Not the first time you've chosen to intellectuality troll me when you didn't read the thread. You might want to do that next time.
I'm not reading that drivel again!
I don't understand why you post either, so let's leave it at that
Sounds reasonable to me, I bid you a good day good lady.
Edit:- Changed Sex..
Amarr for Life |
J'J'J'Jita
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Posted - 2010.07.10 14:58:00 -
[144]
GS hanging out at 12.2/14.1, a nice solid "buy" given the discussion in this thread.
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Arthor Dark
Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.10 16:15:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Arthor Dark on 10/07/2010 16:26:23
Right now, going by jita buy prices for the mats (Water-cooled CPU: 2681 and Transmitter: 2850) to make 1 GS, it would cost 18,436 isk (2681*3.33+2850*3.33) So, it's still better to just sell the t2 mats and not make the GS. However, as the GS are being consumed at about 10m / month, even the stockpiles won't be able to forestall that demand and the price for GS will increase again.
Mind you, this analysis of the t2s that make GS is incorrect anyways, as nobody is actually using them to produce GS, therefore, there is much less demand for these 2 t2 items, and therefore their prices are as low as they are right now. Once it gets to a point that Water-cooled CPUs and Transmitters are actually used in production of GS, their consumption will jump to atleast 33.3m units per month each. At that point their price will also increase in similar fashion to GS price. So, taken with a grain of salt, it may be profitable to buy those t2 items now as well, at their current prices.
This may also be a good time to stock up on some t2 drones, because each one takes 1-4 (large drones 4, medium 2, small 1) to manufacture.
Also, each Recursive Computing Module (t4) takes 6 GS to make, and this t4 is used in about half of all POS modules - a demand previously not accounted for in the 10m / month due to drone manufacturing alone as was previously the sole demand for GS.
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Arthor Dark
Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.10 16:31:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Arthor Dark on 10/07/2010 16:33:15 The 10m units of GS / month above is actually an low value for the consumption. This 10m/month is solely based on the Forge region and solely due to drone construction, which did not account for GS being bought outside of the Forge region. This also does not account for the use of GS in the t4 item that is currently being used in about 1/2 of POS modules. Given those two things, it is more likely that GS consumption is more along the lines of 15m-20m per month and not 10m/month.
With 15-20m / month figure, it would take about 10 to 13 months to eat through the 200m units stockpiled.
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Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.07.10 18:40:00 -
[147]
Glancing around a few regions, consumption was about 30M/month pre-PI from what I saw. Verge Vendor, Forge, and another region (that I forget... didn't notice it till someone else mentioned it) each used up a few hundred thousand a day and a bit over a million a day when combined together.
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Arthor Dark
Nex Exercitus IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.10 22:01:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Arthor Dark on 10/07/2010 22:03:47 Edited by: Arthor Dark on 10/07/2010 22:02:45
I just flew around 16 empire regions and wrote down the amount of GS that were moved from 4/11 to 5/11 (well before PI) in each region:
The Citadel: 10.26m Essence: 3.2m Genesis: <1m Sinq Laison: 16.2m Everyshore: 6.1m Verge vendor: 11.7m Metropolis: <1m Domain: <1m Heimatar: <1m Khanid: <1m Derelik: <1m Devoid: <1m Tash: <1m Kador: <1m Forge: 12.56m Lonetrek: 26.8m
Total: 86.82m / month
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SpyAlt122
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Posted - 2010.07.10 22:11:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Arthor Dark Edited by: Arthor Dark on 10/07/2010 22:03:47 Edited by: Arthor Dark on 10/07/2010 22:02:45
I just flew around 16 empire regions and wrote down the amount of GS that were moved from 4/11 to 5/11 (well before PI) in each region:
The Citadel: 10.26m Essence: 3.2m Genesis: <1m Sinq Laison: 16.2m Everyshore: 6.1m Verge vendor: 11.7m Metropolis: <1m Domain: <1m Heimatar: <1m Khanid: <1m Derelik: <1m Devoid: <1m Tash: <1m Kador: <1m Forge: 12.56m Lonetrek: 26.8m
Total: 86.82m / month
Me wantz to have slice of profit concomitant to great impending shortage.
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Icanti
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Posted - 2010.07.10 22:15:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Arthor Dark Edited by: Arthor Dark on 10/07/2010 22:03:47 Edited by: Arthor Dark on 10/07/2010 22:02:45
I just flew around 16 empire regions and wrote down the amount of GS that were moved from 4/11 to 5/11 (well before PI) in each region:
The Citadel: 10.26m Essence: 3.2m Genesis: <1m Sinq Laison: 16.2m Everyshore: 6.1m Verge vendor: 11.7m Metropolis: <1m Domain: <1m Heimatar: <1m Khanid: <1m Derelik: <1m Devoid: <1m Tash: <1m Kador: <1m Forge: 12.56m Lonetrek: 26.8m
Total: 86.82m / month
Going off that, I think the stockpiles have been vastly overestimated.
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