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Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
8
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Posted - 2011.09.27 04:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Anyone ever shield tank a tristan ? |
Vincenzo DiFrancesco
The Fancy Hats Corporation
1
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Posted - 2011.09.27 05:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Anyone ever shield tank a tristan ?
Never actually got around to building and flying it. But I was considering it for a little frigate "toruney" my old corp considered doing:
[Tristan, WTF Shield Tristan] Damage Control II Co-Processor II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Medium Shield Extender II
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Hobgoblin II x1
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KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
4
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Posted - 2011.09.27 19:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:KFenn wrote:No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit. The fit you posted does basically the same DPS.
Wrong. Has a damage rig, also it's active tanked on top of a little buffer. EFT More. Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
sukmanobov
The Priesthood The 0rphanage
3
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Posted - 2011.09.28 02:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
KFenn wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:KFenn wrote:No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit. The fit you posted does basically the same DPS. Wrong. Has a damage rig, also it's active tanked on top of a little buffer. EFT More.
EFT warriors the best warriors and it shows http://r4pe.mindflood.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=161200
http://r4pe.mindflood.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=172160 supose i should use EFT more |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.09.28 03:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
I've been flying combat frigates for a long time... starting with 400 plated tristans, to MSE merlins, to rifters, taranis, claws, and many more....
Your basic question... shield buffer vs active armor tanks points to a fundamental misunderstanding of frigate PvP. I don't mean this as an insult, so let me elaborate. To start very basic:
1rst: Armor vs Shield tanks... If you shield tank, you typically give up EWAR. If you armor tank, you reduce your speed and/or dps. Since EWAR can often negate Speed and DPS, this is a fairly even trade.
2nd: Active vs buffer tanking.... Active tanking often shines over buffer tanks in 1v1's, but itGÇÖs extremely situational. Active tanking is time limited from both sides. For quick fights, you get more return from a buffer. When the fight draws out, the repper brings in a bigger return... To really know which is better, you need to assess how much you can rep up before your ship explodes (or caps out).
The True Answer: 3rd: The tactics you utilize are what really determine the "best fit." Since an enemy's dps can be heavily modified by the tactics you use, it is your tactics that really matter. For example, a railgun tristan can easily destroy most interceptors (like the claw people have been posting). It just keeps the claw at about 7 km's and tears it apart. By increasing the range, you lower the incoming dps, and make your repper more effective, whereas a plate significantly slows down your ship limiting your ability to keep at range. Another good example of how tactics really determine a fight is my ranis vs a wolf. If I start at a distance (12 km), the wolf can apply a significant amount of damage before I can, and will typically kill me. However, if I can start the engagement at zero, then I can negate a large portion of his dps by orbiting faster than his guns can track. Under such circumstances, I typically win (albeit in deep structure). It is the knowledge of an enemy's fit and flying your ship to exploit their weaknesses that really make the difference.
As a new frigate pvp'er, in-your-face buffer tanks are typically easiest to learn with... but you'll lose a lot of ships while youGÇÖre learning what to engage, when to engage, and how to engage.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.09.28 04:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
sukmanobov wrote:KFenn wrote:Ravenclaw2kk wrote:Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag. Why not? It has enough lowslots to fit a reasonable armor tank, and it frees up the extra mid for a TD or the like: Lets do the math. SAR II+AB II+Web II+Scram II+Tracking Dis I+Neut 1 + being nueted buy my fit = 20s of cap after that your basically a slightly less maneuverable slightly slower AF with less tracking less dps and smaller tank. But yeah you can armor tank a jag all you want.
First off, the small diminishing power system drain is a NOS, not a Neut. Secondly, 20s is a very long time in a frigate fight. Finally, letGÇÖs skip the math and find a quiet nullsec system to duel in. I'll happily engage a dual MSE jag with this armor jag, as I'd shred it 99% of the time; that is, until your oh-so-typical hi-sec OOC reps arrive, at which point I'd easily power away and warp to safety. You can contemplate how EWAR negates your dps and speed while I slowly overcome your impressive passive shield recharge. We should all thank Sukmanobov for providing an excellent example that shows why tactics are so important. Willy-Nilly engaging at point blank, his enormous tank will win him most fights. However, a ship that gets under his guns' tracking, or keeps out of his guns' range can easily win. All ships have a weakness; you just need to learn how to exploit it.
KFenn has a quality armor jag fit for several reasons: The ab/scram/web allows it to control range in most engagements, the NOS allows it to hold neuting targets (vagas), and the TD can be used to negate substantial dps from most targets. It has some flaws too, but overall itGÇÖs a very good fit.
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KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
4
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Posted - 2011.09.28 10:40:00 -
[37] - Quote
ROFL, you think I care about killboard stats? Also all your kill record shows is you usually fly around in gangs of 10 or more ganking lone targets. How is this meant to impress anyone?
Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
53
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Posted - 2011.09.28 14:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Karl and Gizznitt make some good points. Except karl's bit about rifters with a rep beating merlins.
The thing is the frigate class of ships is very well done by ccp. There is a huge variety of ways to fit frigates. That and the fact that they are cheap makes them a favorite for solo pvpers.
That is also why you need to have your log open and find out what your opponent is doing so you can react accordingly. (or learn how to "view ship" and see what guns he has fit)
Like Karl says the way you fit the ship should depend on whether you are going solo or with a gang.
One of the most important things for solo frig fighting is to look at the eft damage graph to see what dps is being done at different ranges and transversals!
That will tell you allot about how you want to pilot the ship. Don't just look at the static dps where you are sitting still shooting a station at point blank range. That is pretty much irrelevant. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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sukmanobov
The Priesthood The 0rphanage
3
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Posted - 2011.09.28 21:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Karl and Gizznitt make some good points. Except karl's bit about rifters with a rep beating merlins. The thing is the frigate class of ships is very well done by ccp. There is a huge variety of ways to fit frigates. That and the fact that they are cheap makes them a favorite for solo pvpers. That is also why you need to have your log open and find out what your opponent is doing so you can react accordingly. (or learn how to "view ship" and see what guns he has fit) Like Karl says the way you fit the ship should depend on whether you are going solo or with a gang. One of the most important things for solo frig fighting is to look at the eft damage graph to see what dps is being done at different ranges and transversals!That will tell you allot about how you want to pilot the ship. Don't just look at the static dps where you are sitting still shooting a station at point blank range. That is pretty much irrelevant.
yup thats why i went 150mm over 200mm @ 500m the 150's will track much better in turn giving better hit avarage and more dps, ship already has a range bonus too so you can use hail in that close. Also Run AX-2 CX-2 (MX-2 yes i know its medium but 90% of the time i run canes, vaga's, Broad, Ruppie etc..) otherwise i'd have an SX-2. Tracking is everything there no point in blasting 250dps frig if you can't hit a barge at 500m orbit
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4
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Posted - 2011.09.29 00:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
sukmanobov wrote:yup thats why i went 150mm over 200mm @ 500m the 150's will track much better in turn giving better hit avarage and more dps, ship already has a range bonus too so you can use hail in that close. Also Run AX-2 CX-2 (MX-2 yes i know its medium but 90% of the time i run canes, vaga's, Broad, Ruppie etc..) otherwise i'd have an SX-2. Tracking is everything there no point in blasting 250dps frig if you can't hit a barge at 500m orbit
Sukmanobov is right on the money here. On ships like the jag, which lack a tracking bonus, the extra damage from 200's is often negated by their poorer tracking. I've solo'd sabres in my ranis by getting under the tracking of their 200mm autocannons. |
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Andy Landen
Cryptonym Sleepers
2
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Posted - 2011.09.29 02:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Just a quick question really - I've been flying alot of frigates lately and it seems that Shield tanking is much better than armor tanking. I'm specifically comparing Medium shield extender frigates vs 200mm Plate + rep + damage control armor tanks. I've tried the Merlin, Rifter with MSE tank and I've tried the Tristan, Rifter, Punisher with the 200mm + rep tank and it seems the shield varients always can take way more damage and can out tank and kill you despite the fact that the armor fit often does more damage.
Can anyone enlighten me as to some suggestions on how to bring the armor tank up to the same level ? You are correct. Shield does better AND has more dps and speed with the free low slots, BUT ... armor excels much more when EW comes into play. Bring several guardians, several plated, triple EANM, DC 2 Recons plus others, and you will find armor easily holds its own. A 1600mm plate is much larger than a Lg shield extender. But where frigates are concerned, speed, angular velocity, and range are much more important aspects of its tank than whether it is shield or armor tanked. |
Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
9
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Posted - 2011.09.29 05:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
Which doesn't really count when flying a frigate solo ^^ |
Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
4
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Posted - 2011.09.30 00:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
I have found recently that I have a new love for armor frigates ever since I discovered the Armor Hawk. I would say at least on the frigate level the two types of tank are fairly well balanced. |
Kadeyaa
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 04:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:Just a quick question really - I've been flying alot of frigates lately and it seems that Shield tanking is much better than armor tanking. I'm specifically comparing Medium shield extender frigates vs 200mm Plate + rep + damage control armor tanks. I've tried the Merlin, Rifter with MSE tank and I've tried the Tristan, Rifter, Punisher with the 200mm + rep tank and it seems the shield varients always can take way more damage and can out tank and kill you despite the fact that the armor fit often does more damage.
Can anyone enlighten me as to some suggestions on how to bring the armor tank up to the same level ? You are correct. Shield does better AND has more dps and speed with the free low slots, BUT ... armor excels much more when EW comes into play. Bring several guardians, several plated, triple EANM, DC 2 Recons plus others, and you will find armor easily holds its own. A 1600mm plate is much larger than a Lg shield extender. But where frigates are concerned, speed, angular velocity, and range are much more important aspects of its tank than whether it is shield or armor tanked.
And this is exactly what this threat is about.
If this is frigate vs frigate a web will not influence things too much, because angular velocity is for both people the same. The difference is only noticeable if one flies a missile boat because angular velocity means squat.
In the final analysis Armor > Shield for small scale PvP because it frees up your mid slots for prop + ewar + tackle + cap mods.
The ability to dictate pure range or excel at speed is always negated by EWar (jamming, sensor dampeners (!), tracking disruptors) - not to mention tackling modules.
For larger scale shield begins to shine because you will have either everybody filling these rolls with just one mod each, or having dedicated persons for the job. At the same time it allows you to fit a greater buffer and damage at the same time.
The Armor vs Shield debate is one where Armor will always win because I has HG Slaves. And yes I PvP in frigates with HG Slaves - because I can afford it :D |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2011.10.01 13:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
There are no guarantees with anything but armor can work well for you.
Something like a rocket Hawk can mess up a dram quite a bit and that's seen as a good frigate by most.
Load rockets. 1 web, 1 TD - optimal range script, 1 scram. 1 400mm armor, 1 DC II
Over 6k tank to your weak spot - explosive.
No you can't chase them around but a range script makes them come in if they want a fight - it drops their optimal to the 330m-375m range and their falloff to the 4.1k-4.7k range (150mm vs 200mm) - they have to be within 10k to hit you at all with guns - within 5k to hit "OK" vs little taps.
The closer in on a target, the uglier for a speed based ship due to tackle/web use but also due to trying to run circles around a ship at high speeds. Drones aren't too hard for rockets to take out and they do clock speed ships pretty hard when those ships cannot move that fast.
It can be beaten but it's a lot tougher than trying that fight with a shield tanked version of the hawk. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
17
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Posted - 2011.10.04 01:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
KFenn wrote:Wrong. Has a damage rig, also it's active tanked on top of a little buffer. EFT More.
You realize he has a rocket launcher on his fit as well, right? And that a single damage rig only makes up the difference? |
Dibblerette
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.10.06 03:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
I've had some great fights with my MSE Merlin, but (and here's the twist) with two rocket launchers and 2 gatling pulse lasers. Usage is simple: Overheat web while afterburner-ing into range, then keep them on the edge of scram range and shoot rockets and scorch at them until they blow up. Should they get close, simlply switch to IN multifreq and melt them faster, but you do need to be careful of neuts, which is why I suggest staying at 7k or so whenever possible. |
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
291
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Posted - 2011.10.06 05:39:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tank on a frig is much less important than DPS application and range control although overall its a question of balance, and you also want to consider your ability to catch stuff in the first place. Try to evaluate this with personal experience because if you listened to half the advice in this thread you would just be bad no matter what. Don't take peoples word as bond and assume they are dumb, make up your own conclusions based on what they are telling you, and how it fits to your style of pew. So many morons about it isn't funny. GÖÑ Haviing your portrait painted here helps INTAKI Disabled Children GÖÑ |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
2
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Posted - 2011.10.07 12:39:00 -
[49] - Quote
People do hate jammers so next time try this against merlin If you are lucky jammer works enough, if not you will die.
[Griffin, Do you feel lucky?] Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Medium Shield Extender II 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II BZ-5 Neutralizing Spatial Destabilizer ECM
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x1
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Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.10.07 14:13:00 -
[50] - Quote
Are we limiting the discussion to T1 frigs?
If not, then I'll say the active tank hawk is pretty mean for a frig. Does nice dps and has a solid tank to boot. |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
5
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Posted - 2011.10.07 16:51:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:People do hate jammers so next time try this against merlin If you are lucky jammer works enough, if not you will die.
I've had good luck with fishing griffins.... Although, I really don't think you need a tank on them... I tend to forego all tank, double up on jammers, and fit a mwd instead of an ab. |
mama guru
Thundercats
5
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Posted - 2011.10.08 17:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
Dramiels are so easy we T2 gallente pilots call them a 3:1 ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's to hard you are to weak. |
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