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Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 06:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Just a quick question really - I've been flying alot of frigates lately and it seems that Shield tanking is much better than armor tanking. I'm specifically comparing Medium shield extender frigates vs 200mm Plate + rep + damage control armor tanks. I've tried the Merlin, Rifter with MSE tank and I've tried the Tristan, Rifter, Punisher with the 200mm + rep tank and it seems the shield varients always can take way more damage and can out tank and kill you despite the fact that the armor fit often does more damage.
Can anyone enlighten me as to some suggestions on how to bring the armor tank up to the same level ? |
foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
15
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 07:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your analysis does not seem complete.
Usually it is the armor tank that does less damage, but has more buffer, while shield tank has less buffer and more damage.
Also, shield tank ships are faster while armor tank ships have better control inside web range, and can opt for cap injection.
Reason for that is that armor tank occupies low slots, which are also used for damage mods, while shield tank occupies mid slots, which are also used for propulsion and electronic warfare. Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior. |
Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 07:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
I realize that, but what I'm getting at is that the active armor tank seems much "softer" than the MSE tank. Easier to break. |
foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
15
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 07:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Actually, active armor tank does not work well on most frigates. Notable exception would be a vengeance.
Reason is that in order to be effective on a ship you need at least 2 repair modules. Vengeance can make do with 1 due to bonuses to armor resistances and excellent cap recharge.
On the other hand, a medium shield extender gives you a lot of shield HP which then translates to a pretty decent peak recharge, which coupled with hefty buffer means you need CONSISTENT hits to break the shield tanked ship.
While a pure buffer armor tank can be broken with incosistent damage over a prolonged period, shield is resistant to that due to natural recharge.
Thats why people put reppers on buffer armor tanked ships. You do not count on repairing all the time, you count on your armor base HP to keep you alive. Repairer is there to occasionally rep yourself up if the damage turns out to be inconsistent enough.
On frigates, the main armor tanking item is the plate, not the repair system. That one is just a bonus. Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior. |
tagen young
The Night Witch
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 10:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
As far as pure tanking is concerned I always prefer shield over armour if possible. However the huge drawback is using mids for tank rather than tackle. A shield rifter can be a huge surprise, but you give up a web to achieve this making it much harder to control range. |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
6
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Posted - 2011.09.23 10:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
tagen young wrote:As far as pure tanking is concerned I always prefer shield over armour if possible. However the huge drawback is using mids for tank rather than tackle. A shield rifter can be a huge surprise, but you give up a web to achieve this making it much harder to control range.
And by harder you mean impossible. Shield rifters, good in a gang, terribad solo.
I got to admit a lot of what is being said in this thread hurts a bit. There are some things you are not mentioning here, for instance is the pvp or pve? I'll assume pvp
Merlin) MSE gives you tank and the trifecta in the mids. However, unless you use your last low slot for a nano, you will still be slower than an armor tanked rifter (sucks). Also, your dps is worse. You do have more health, but this adv can dissapear (nos rifter)
Shield rifter) as I said before, no web means you can't control range. Only thing it is good for is pickin up some extra speed, more dps and people loading the wrong ammo on you. Good for gangs, just plain terrible for solo.
Armor tank) Punisher, its missing a mid, so despite the awesome armor tank you need friends to go out in it.
Tristan, fine ship but you usually need people to be within 6km, and with the armor you are extremely slow (for a frig).
The rifter, golded child for the buffer+rep. Most of the time you see this pair with a nos. You only run your reps until you cap out in the rifter, then its done. Its teh only thing on your ship that usually eats cap, so you can get in close and keep your cap alive pretty long with the nos. A rep is on their usually because you have nothing better to do with the cap. Sometimes you can fit a nuet rifter with a 400 plate instead of the 200+rep, but in general a lot of people like having that extra buffer (cap+rep) It may not have quite as much EHP, but typically it will spank a MSE fit merlin, just sayin |
Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 10:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hmmm - I seem to be having the opposite experience. This is what I'm running:
[Tristan, Tristan Rocket Blaster Armor] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I 1MN Afterburner II
Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Hobgoblin II x1
I really struggle vs shield fits with it. I overheat my weapons as soon as the battle starts. But often I get blam'd going into their last 10% shields or so. I've goy my armor tanking skills maxed and all gunnery support skills on 4. I've also got some small hardwirings. Any suggestions ? |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 12:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Karl is on the money here.
A Rifter or a Claw with armour repper will have a nos. You can run the repper for about 2:30 before you run out of cap and about 1:30 overheated.
If the Rifter/Claw pilot has a clue then the repper will be running as soon as you engage and it will still be running at the end of the fight.
I had loads of fun with the Claw in Factional Warfare - and just general roaming around :
[Claw, 200mm Plate Scram] 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Small Armor Repairer II Damage Control II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 1MN Afterburner II
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S Small Nosferatu II 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
You can fit 400 plate on it too but it flies like a brick. Tanks 50dps and has max DPS of 170, which given the size/speed of the Claw is usually enough in a solo encounter. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 12:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Hmmm - I seem to be having the opposite experience. This is what I'm running:
[Tristan, Tristan Rocket Blaster Armor] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I 1MN Afterburner II
Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Hobgoblin II x1
I really struggle vs shield fits with it. I overheat my weapons as soon as the battle starts. But often I get blam'd going into their last 10% shields or so. I've goy my armor tanking skills maxed and all gunnery support skills on 4. I've also got some small hardwirings. Any suggestions ?
The blasters cap usage is your problem. Reppers work on minnie ships because of no cap usage on weapons.
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Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 13:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ok - but I can't exactly not fit blasters on my ship. And most frigate combats are over in less than 60 secs anyways so that hardly matters anyway. So what do I replace the repper with that will give me similiar or more HP ? |
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ChromeStriker
7
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 14:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Othran wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:Hmmm - I seem to be having the opposite experience. This is what I'm running:
[Tristan, Tristan Rocket Blaster Armor] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I 1MN Afterburner II
Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I Small Hybrid Ambit Extension I Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Hobgoblin II x1
I really struggle vs shield fits with it. I overheat my weapons as soon as the battle starts. But often I get blam'd going into their last 10% shields or so. I've goy my armor tanking skills maxed and all gunnery support skills on 4. I've also got some small hardwirings. Any suggestions ? The blasters cap usage is your problem. Reppers work on minnie ships because of no cap usage on weapons.
I see your problem and raise you this...
[Tristan, Up close n Personal] Small Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Small 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I 1MN Afterburner II Initiated Harmonic Warp Scrambler I
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Projectile Burst Aerator I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Warrior II x1
pulse the second repper and keep the other guys cap low if you can keep hom in range this thing is as funny as hell to fly
- Nulla Curas |
Karl Planck
Labyrinth Obtaining Chaotic Kangaroos
6
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 14:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Ok - but I can't exactly not fit blasters on my ship. And most frigate combats are over in less than 60 secs anyways so that hardly matters anyway. So what do I replace the repper with that will give me similiar or more HP ?
you should be able to plop a 400mm plate on there and switch the SAR for a adapative (something), either boost a particular resist or get the one that boost all your resists.
On the flip side, since your slow, there is always the boosting, no web, double neut, SAR tristan (try it out, it puts a smile on my face)
|
ValentinaDLM
Ubi Concordia Ibi Victoria
407
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 14:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well, it isn't quite fair to compare armor reps to shield buffer, after all active and passive tanking is different. You don't see many MSB frigs either aside from the occasional hawk for a pretty good reason, and that is that you would need to be full of cap boosters to even hope to active shield tank.
So why does the armor repper seem sorta popular? because it uses alot less cap than a shield booster which makes it pretty well suited for a rifter which doesn't have great cap as is, but also doesn't use any on it's guns. I have a tristan fit similarly, and I will say it doesn't perform as well, but it makes sense in some situations mainly FW plexes where not only can you have PVP, but also there is going to be PVE you will want to be able to rep afterwards if you decided to run the plex (though running in two armor buffer tristans with light armor maintenance bots works just as well for patching up armor). For normal solo PVP, buffer usually wins.
The problem is though, while shields can really be nice after all the merlin is my favorite tech one frigate on most of them such as the Rifter, Tristan, or incursus you are giving up precious ewar ability with your lack of mids to fit a MSE. A MSE rifter still needs a point and a propmod, but now has no room for a web or a tracking disruptor for the kiting style fit.
It isn't so much that armor or shields is better IMO, merely that from a solo point of view you really want those mids for tackle/ewar. |
Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
4
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 14:23:00 -
[14] - Quote
karl please post your 400mm plate fit you use. |
Gogo Seun Yabari
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 18:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
[Rifter, buffer]
Damage Control II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
150mm Light AutoCannon II 150mm Light AutoCannon II 150mm Light AutoCannon II Rocket Launcher II
Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
|
Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 18:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Armor Rep AB Daredevil is pure win. In a Frig 1v1 the only thing you really have to worry about is a Sentinel if you know what you are doing. I have never lost one in a 1v1 vs another frigate. Fighting dramiels is nearly effortless. Comet also works really well with a similar fit.
As for a general rule on whether shield is better then armor or vice versa on a frig...can't be done. It depends entirely on the ship and in some cases the situation.
Personally I don't think I have ever flown a shield fit frig. Is sexy time? |
Hamatitio
Aperture Harmonics K162
16
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 20:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Othran wrote:Edit - the Claw is 30m sig radius so 25% of the opponents damage is negated even if you're not moving as small guns have a signature of 40m. A much under-rated ship IMHO.
This is not true of turrets, the signature of the turret vs the target is taken into account in hit chance in the formula:
ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2)
|
Liz Laser
The New Era C0NVICTED
1
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 20:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Frigates have tanks?
Sorry, I fly griffins. When you've got 3 battleships jammed you don't need a tank. |
Bor Navkjid
Autocannons Anonymous
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 22:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
My wolf would like to have a word with you.
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Liz Laser
The New Era C0NVICTED
1
|
Posted - 2011.09.23 22:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
I'm teasing, kind of sort of.
I just found this thread amusing because I had never bothered to contemplate the idea of a tank on my frigate. I really do run griffins.
In the kinds of battles I'm usually involved in the frigates are speed/sig tanking and you know they're either going to live because of your ECM and numbers, or they're going to die no matter how you tanked it because the enemy was just too much for you.
But if you must introduce me to your wolf, I'm only hard to find because I'm ultra-casual in hours played. Add me to your friends list and search the Delve Thunderdome area when I'm online on a weekend.
And bring friends, the more the merrier. Even if you can't find me, you'll find SOMEONE (or vice versa). |
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Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
4
|
Posted - 2011.09.24 08:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Lost of replies here - anyone actually ever use a 400mm plated tristan ? Cause so far we got claws, rifters and griffins mentioned |
Zen Guerrilla
Royal Order of Security Specialists
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.24 12:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Lost of replies here - anyone actually ever use a 400mm plated tristan ? Cause so far we got claws, rifters and griffins mentioned [Tristan, Zen Guerrilla's Tristan] Damage Control II Adaptive Nano Plating II 200mm Reinforced Titanium Plates I
1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
125mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S 125mm Railgun II,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Rocket Launcher II,Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket Rocket Launcher II,Caldari Navy Foxfire Rocket
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1
Never tried a 400mm plate fit tho, it's already real fat and slow with just the 200mm one. You could probably just swap the rails with electron blasters and scram a 400mm plate in there but i'd say it's too slow to work then.
It really is fun to fly, even with ****** agility and speed. You just need to figure out how to start a fight without getting too close early at the start.
Also, if you can fly the rail tristan properly, you'll be awesome in a rail 'ranis. And after that there's the rail comet, which is a beast vs. other frigates.
|
YesI'mWatching
Cool4Cats
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.24 14:04:00 -
[23] - Quote
shield tank if you can't efectively armour tank . Vigil , incursis , merlin all spring to mind. Power grid available can influence the choice over and above the number of mid or lower slots. |
KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.24 14:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gogo Seun Yabari wrote:[Rifter, buffer]
Damage Control II 400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
150mm Light AutoCannon II 150mm Light AutoCannon II 150mm Light AutoCannon II Rocket Launcher II
Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I Small Trimark Armor Pump I
No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit.
[Rifter, Armor] 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Damage Control II Small Armor Repairer II
1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Small Projectile Burst Aerator I [empty rig slot]
That's a fairly cookie-cutter Rifter fit. Swap T2 for Meta where needed, and you can drop one of the rigs for armor rigs if you want, it's preference. I don't advise dropping both though, else you'll hit about as a hard as a wet noodle. Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
sukmanobov
The Priesthood The 0rphanage
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.25 03:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
[Jaguar, NEUT - SCRAM - WEB] Gyrostabilizer II Pseudoelectron Containment Field I Power Diagnostic System II
Medium Shield Extender II Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Warp Scrambler II 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
175dps Faction ammo - 195 hail 11.9k ehp tank EFT figures so about 10K ingame 3.6kms Also being sheild it has 43hps regen
Also cheap jag fit no web http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=8994231 why i had a poly carb rig on i have no idea :P just use another SSE rig |
Azelor Delaria
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming The 0rphanage
24
|
Posted - 2011.09.25 03:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Quote:[Jaguar, Solo Combat] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Coreli C-Type 1MN Afterburner Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster Warp Scrambler II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S 200mm AutoCannon II, Barrage S Corpii C-Type Small Nosferatu
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
This is an expensive fit for a Jaguar, and realistically you will want HG Crystals going, as well as maybe the Booster. The shield booster alone is about 75-mil, so this is not for the novice pilot.
The booster, along with the NOS, is cap stable at 54%. Facing a neut is painful, but you are, for the most part, able to outrange small neuts. 112 DPS with Barrage, which you want to use. Maintain distance at a minimum of 8,000 meters. Your max range before overheating on the NOS is 8.6km, and your falloff is also 8.6km. This is a scary fit for anyone to face, and a competent active tanked Jaguar pilot is pretty frightening to see on the battlefield. |
Ravenclaw2kk
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.25 04:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag. |
KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
4
|
Posted - 2011.09.27 00:50:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ravenclaw2kk wrote:Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag.
Why not? It has enough lowslots to fit a reasonable armor tank, and it frees up the extra mid for a TD or the like:
[Jaguar, Armor] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II
1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I
200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
12
|
Posted - 2011.09.27 01:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
KFenn wrote:No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit.
The fit you posted does basically the same DPS. |
sukmanobov
The Priesthood The 0rphanage
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.27 02:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
KFenn wrote:Ravenclaw2kk wrote:Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag. Why not? It has enough lowslots to fit a reasonable armor tank, and it frees up the extra mid for a TD or the like: [Jaguar, Armor] Damage Control II 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Small Armor Repairer II 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I 200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S 200mm AutoCannon II, EMP S Small Diminishing Power System Drain I Small Anti-Explosive Pump I Small Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Lets do the math.
SAR II+AB II+Web II+Scram II+Tracking Dis I+Neut 1 + being nueted buy my fit = 20s of cap after that your basically a slightly less maneuverable slightly slower AF with less tracking less dps and smaller tank.
But yeah you can armor tank a jag all you want. |
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Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
8
|
Posted - 2011.09.27 04:39:00 -
[31] - Quote
Anyone ever shield tank a tristan ? |
Vincenzo DiFrancesco
The Fancy Hats Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2011.09.27 05:55:00 -
[32] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Anyone ever shield tank a tristan ?
Never actually got around to building and flying it. But I was considering it for a little frigate "toruney" my old corp considered doing:
[Tristan, WTF Shield Tristan] Damage Control II Co-Processor II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I Medium Shield Extender II
Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Light Ion Blaster II, Void S Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Diminishing Power System Drain I
Small Ancillary Current Router I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Hobgoblin II x1
|
KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
4
|
Posted - 2011.09.27 19:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mfume Apocal wrote:KFenn wrote:No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit. The fit you posted does basically the same DPS.
Wrong. Has a damage rig, also it's active tanked on top of a little buffer. EFT More. Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
sukmanobov
The Priesthood The 0rphanage
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.28 02:52:00 -
[34] - Quote
KFenn wrote:Mfume Apocal wrote:KFenn wrote:No prop mod, and the trimarks make you sloooooooooow AND you do so little DPS the extra buffer doesn't even matter. This is a terrible fit. The fit you posted does basically the same DPS. Wrong. Has a damage rig, also it's active tanked on top of a little buffer. EFT More.
EFT warriors the best warriors and it shows http://r4pe.mindflood.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=161200
http://r4pe.mindflood.org/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=172160 supose i should use EFT more |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.28 03:07:00 -
[35] - Quote
I've been flying combat frigates for a long time... starting with 400 plated tristans, to MSE merlins, to rifters, taranis, claws, and many more....
Your basic question... shield buffer vs active armor tanks points to a fundamental misunderstanding of frigate PvP. I don't mean this as an insult, so let me elaborate. To start very basic:
1rst: Armor vs Shield tanks... If you shield tank, you typically give up EWAR. If you armor tank, you reduce your speed and/or dps. Since EWAR can often negate Speed and DPS, this is a fairly even trade.
2nd: Active vs buffer tanking.... Active tanking often shines over buffer tanks in 1v1's, but itGÇÖs extremely situational. Active tanking is time limited from both sides. For quick fights, you get more return from a buffer. When the fight draws out, the repper brings in a bigger return... To really know which is better, you need to assess how much you can rep up before your ship explodes (or caps out).
The True Answer: 3rd: The tactics you utilize are what really determine the "best fit." Since an enemy's dps can be heavily modified by the tactics you use, it is your tactics that really matter. For example, a railgun tristan can easily destroy most interceptors (like the claw people have been posting). It just keeps the claw at about 7 km's and tears it apart. By increasing the range, you lower the incoming dps, and make your repper more effective, whereas a plate significantly slows down your ship limiting your ability to keep at range. Another good example of how tactics really determine a fight is my ranis vs a wolf. If I start at a distance (12 km), the wolf can apply a significant amount of damage before I can, and will typically kill me. However, if I can start the engagement at zero, then I can negate a large portion of his dps by orbiting faster than his guns can track. Under such circumstances, I typically win (albeit in deep structure). It is the knowledge of an enemy's fit and flying your ship to exploit their weaknesses that really make the difference.
As a new frigate pvp'er, in-your-face buffer tanks are typically easiest to learn with... but you'll lose a lot of ships while youGÇÖre learning what to engage, when to engage, and how to engage.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.09.28 04:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
sukmanobov wrote:KFenn wrote:Ravenclaw2kk wrote:Duel MSE Jaguar is pretty epic, you really wouldn't want to armour tank a Jag. Why not? It has enough lowslots to fit a reasonable armor tank, and it frees up the extra mid for a TD or the like: Lets do the math. SAR II+AB II+Web II+Scram II+Tracking Dis I+Neut 1 + being nueted buy my fit = 20s of cap after that your basically a slightly less maneuverable slightly slower AF with less tracking less dps and smaller tank. But yeah you can armor tank a jag all you want.
First off, the small diminishing power system drain is a NOS, not a Neut. Secondly, 20s is a very long time in a frigate fight. Finally, letGÇÖs skip the math and find a quiet nullsec system to duel in. I'll happily engage a dual MSE jag with this armor jag, as I'd shred it 99% of the time; that is, until your oh-so-typical hi-sec OOC reps arrive, at which point I'd easily power away and warp to safety. You can contemplate how EWAR negates your dps and speed while I slowly overcome your impressive passive shield recharge. We should all thank Sukmanobov for providing an excellent example that shows why tactics are so important. Willy-Nilly engaging at point blank, his enormous tank will win him most fights. However, a ship that gets under his guns' tracking, or keeps out of his guns' range can easily win. All ships have a weakness; you just need to learn how to exploit it.
KFenn has a quality armor jag fit for several reasons: The ab/scram/web allows it to control range in most engagements, the NOS allows it to hold neuting targets (vagas), and the TD can be used to negate substantial dps from most targets. It has some flaws too, but overall itGÇÖs a very good fit.
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KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
4
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Posted - 2011.09.28 10:40:00 -
[37] - Quote
ROFL, you think I care about killboard stats? Also all your kill record shows is you usually fly around in gangs of 10 or more ganking lone targets. How is this meant to impress anyone?
Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
53
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Posted - 2011.09.28 14:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
Karl and Gizznitt make some good points. Except karl's bit about rifters with a rep beating merlins.
The thing is the frigate class of ships is very well done by ccp. There is a huge variety of ways to fit frigates. That and the fact that they are cheap makes them a favorite for solo pvpers.
That is also why you need to have your log open and find out what your opponent is doing so you can react accordingly. (or learn how to "view ship" and see what guns he has fit)
Like Karl says the way you fit the ship should depend on whether you are going solo or with a gang.
One of the most important things for solo frig fighting is to look at the eft damage graph to see what dps is being done at different ranges and transversals!
That will tell you allot about how you want to pilot the ship. Don't just look at the static dps where you are sitting still shooting a station at point blank range. That is pretty much irrelevant. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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sukmanobov
The Priesthood The 0rphanage
3
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Posted - 2011.09.28 21:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Karl and Gizznitt make some good points. Except karl's bit about rifters with a rep beating merlins. The thing is the frigate class of ships is very well done by ccp. There is a huge variety of ways to fit frigates. That and the fact that they are cheap makes them a favorite for solo pvpers. That is also why you need to have your log open and find out what your opponent is doing so you can react accordingly. (or learn how to "view ship" and see what guns he has fit) Like Karl says the way you fit the ship should depend on whether you are going solo or with a gang. One of the most important things for solo frig fighting is to look at the eft damage graph to see what dps is being done at different ranges and transversals!That will tell you allot about how you want to pilot the ship. Don't just look at the static dps where you are sitting still shooting a station at point blank range. That is pretty much irrelevant.
yup thats why i went 150mm over 200mm @ 500m the 150's will track much better in turn giving better hit avarage and more dps, ship already has a range bonus too so you can use hail in that close. Also Run AX-2 CX-2 (MX-2 yes i know its medium but 90% of the time i run canes, vaga's, Broad, Ruppie etc..) otherwise i'd have an SX-2. Tracking is everything there no point in blasting 250dps frig if you can't hit a barge at 500m orbit
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
4
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Posted - 2011.09.29 00:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
sukmanobov wrote:yup thats why i went 150mm over 200mm @ 500m the 150's will track much better in turn giving better hit avarage and more dps, ship already has a range bonus too so you can use hail in that close. Also Run AX-2 CX-2 (MX-2 yes i know its medium but 90% of the time i run canes, vaga's, Broad, Ruppie etc..) otherwise i'd have an SX-2. Tracking is everything there no point in blasting 250dps frig if you can't hit a barge at 500m orbit
Sukmanobov is right on the money here. On ships like the jag, which lack a tracking bonus, the extra damage from 200's is often negated by their poorer tracking. I've solo'd sabres in my ranis by getting under the tracking of their 200mm autocannons. |
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Andy Landen
Cryptonym Sleepers
2
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Posted - 2011.09.29 02:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Zoe Alarhun wrote:Just a quick question really - I've been flying alot of frigates lately and it seems that Shield tanking is much better than armor tanking. I'm specifically comparing Medium shield extender frigates vs 200mm Plate + rep + damage control armor tanks. I've tried the Merlin, Rifter with MSE tank and I've tried the Tristan, Rifter, Punisher with the 200mm + rep tank and it seems the shield varients always can take way more damage and can out tank and kill you despite the fact that the armor fit often does more damage.
Can anyone enlighten me as to some suggestions on how to bring the armor tank up to the same level ? You are correct. Shield does better AND has more dps and speed with the free low slots, BUT ... armor excels much more when EW comes into play. Bring several guardians, several plated, triple EANM, DC 2 Recons plus others, and you will find armor easily holds its own. A 1600mm plate is much larger than a Lg shield extender. But where frigates are concerned, speed, angular velocity, and range are much more important aspects of its tank than whether it is shield or armor tanked. |
Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
9
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Posted - 2011.09.29 05:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
Which doesn't really count when flying a frigate solo ^^ |
Korg Tronix
Heretic Army
4
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Posted - 2011.09.30 00:06:00 -
[43] - Quote
I have found recently that I have a new love for armor frigates ever since I discovered the Armor Hawk. I would say at least on the frigate level the two types of tank are fairly well balanced. |
Kadeyaa
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 04:56:00 -
[44] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Zoe Alarhun wrote:Just a quick question really - I've been flying alot of frigates lately and it seems that Shield tanking is much better than armor tanking. I'm specifically comparing Medium shield extender frigates vs 200mm Plate + rep + damage control armor tanks. I've tried the Merlin, Rifter with MSE tank and I've tried the Tristan, Rifter, Punisher with the 200mm + rep tank and it seems the shield varients always can take way more damage and can out tank and kill you despite the fact that the armor fit often does more damage.
Can anyone enlighten me as to some suggestions on how to bring the armor tank up to the same level ? You are correct. Shield does better AND has more dps and speed with the free low slots, BUT ... armor excels much more when EW comes into play. Bring several guardians, several plated, triple EANM, DC 2 Recons plus others, and you will find armor easily holds its own. A 1600mm plate is much larger than a Lg shield extender. But where frigates are concerned, speed, angular velocity, and range are much more important aspects of its tank than whether it is shield or armor tanked.
And this is exactly what this threat is about.
If this is frigate vs frigate a web will not influence things too much, because angular velocity is for both people the same. The difference is only noticeable if one flies a missile boat because angular velocity means squat.
In the final analysis Armor > Shield for small scale PvP because it frees up your mid slots for prop + ewar + tackle + cap mods.
The ability to dictate pure range or excel at speed is always negated by EWar (jamming, sensor dampeners (!), tracking disruptors) - not to mention tackling modules.
For larger scale shield begins to shine because you will have either everybody filling these rolls with just one mod each, or having dedicated persons for the job. At the same time it allows you to fit a greater buffer and damage at the same time.
The Armor vs Shield debate is one where Armor will always win because I has HG Slaves. And yes I PvP in frigates with HG Slaves - because I can afford it :D |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
12
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Posted - 2011.10.01 13:59:00 -
[45] - Quote
There are no guarantees with anything but armor can work well for you.
Something like a rocket Hawk can mess up a dram quite a bit and that's seen as a good frigate by most.
Load rockets. 1 web, 1 TD - optimal range script, 1 scram. 1 400mm armor, 1 DC II
Over 6k tank to your weak spot - explosive.
No you can't chase them around but a range script makes them come in if they want a fight - it drops their optimal to the 330m-375m range and their falloff to the 4.1k-4.7k range (150mm vs 200mm) - they have to be within 10k to hit you at all with guns - within 5k to hit "OK" vs little taps.
The closer in on a target, the uglier for a speed based ship due to tackle/web use but also due to trying to run circles around a ship at high speeds. Drones aren't too hard for rockets to take out and they do clock speed ships pretty hard when those ships cannot move that fast.
It can be beaten but it's a lot tougher than trying that fight with a shield tanked version of the hawk. |
Mfume Apocal
Origin. Black Legion.
17
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Posted - 2011.10.04 01:56:00 -
[46] - Quote
KFenn wrote:Wrong. Has a damage rig, also it's active tanked on top of a little buffer. EFT More.
You realize he has a rocket launcher on his fit as well, right? And that a single damage rig only makes up the difference? |
Dibblerette
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.10.06 03:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
I've had some great fights with my MSE Merlin, but (and here's the twist) with two rocket launchers and 2 gatling pulse lasers. Usage is simple: Overheat web while afterburner-ing into range, then keep them on the edge of scram range and shoot rockets and scorch at them until they blow up. Should they get close, simlply switch to IN multifreq and melt them faster, but you do need to be careful of neuts, which is why I suggest staying at 7k or so whenever possible. |
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
291
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Posted - 2011.10.06 05:39:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tank on a frig is much less important than DPS application and range control although overall its a question of balance, and you also want to consider your ability to catch stuff in the first place. Try to evaluate this with personal experience because if you listened to half the advice in this thread you would just be bad no matter what. Don't take peoples word as bond and assume they are dumb, make up your own conclusions based on what they are telling you, and how it fits to your style of pew. So many morons about it isn't funny. GÖÑ Haviing your portrait painted here helps INTAKI Disabled Children GÖÑ |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
2
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Posted - 2011.10.07 12:39:00 -
[49] - Quote
People do hate jammers so next time try this against merlin If you are lucky jammer works enough, if not you will die.
[Griffin, Do you feel lucky?] Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Medium Shield Extender II 1MN Afterburner II Warp Scrambler II BZ-5 Neutralizing Spatial Destabilizer ECM
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Gremlin Rocket 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x1
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Smodab Ongalot
Shadows Of The Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.10.07 14:13:00 -
[50] - Quote
Are we limiting the discussion to T1 frigs?
If not, then I'll say the active tank hawk is pretty mean for a frig. Does nice dps and has a solid tank to boot. |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
5
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Posted - 2011.10.07 16:51:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:People do hate jammers so next time try this against merlin If you are lucky jammer works enough, if not you will die.
I've had good luck with fishing griffins.... Although, I really don't think you need a tank on them... I tend to forego all tank, double up on jammers, and fit a mwd instead of an ab. |
mama guru
Thundercats
5
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Posted - 2011.10.08 17:17:00 -
[52] - Quote
Dramiels are so easy we T2 gallente pilots call them a 3:1 ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's to hard you are to weak. |
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