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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.12 14:48:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Jasdemi I appreciate your attention, guys, but you're supposed to discuss about learnings, not about me. Keep your love posts evemail exclusive and don't post it here in the publicity. I'm getting all embarrassed due to your lovely compliments.
There aren't/weren't any better suggestions than the +10/+10% and SP back. This is simple the best solution. Not my problem if you don't agree with me, it's MY opinion after all.
Oh look who's decided it's time to get back on-topic now.
You should be embarrassed but not because anyone has paid you a compliment.
There are/were several better suggestions than the +10/+10 rebate welfare government stimulus bonus plan that you are so in love with. You have never acknowledged the existence of any alternate suggestions.
I'll give you an example of one and you can then feel free to poo poo on it ( This one has been officially proposed, btw )
Give all new characters Basic Learning skills to a 4 and Advanced Learning skills to a 3. This would give brand new players more than 70% of the full effect of learning skills right away, save them the cost of the advanced books and leave for them the choice later to train the last few levels or don't.
You should hate that suggestion despite how rational it is because it won't give you personally anything for free.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Xennifer
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:49:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:50:36 Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:49:04 *facepalm*
How is this tired argument against learning reform still around?
The game is approching a decade old, there's absolutely no reason not to further acellerate the pace at which new accounts can see access to content. It already takes years to fly anything much larger than a cruiser perfectly. Why not cut down the time on that process by a few months? There is a lot more to being an EVE veteran than skill gap.
I trained all my learning skills to max on both accounts years ago, but I see absolutely no harm in change to them.
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.12 18:59:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Xennifer Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:50:36 Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:49:04 *facepalm*
How is this tired argument against learning reform still around?
The game is approching a decade old, there's absolutely no reason not to further acellerate the pace at which new accounts can see access to content. It already takes years to fly anything much larger than a cruiser perfectly. Why not cut down the time on that process by a few months? There is a lot more to being an EVE veteran than skill gap.
I trained all my learning skills to max on both accounts years ago, but I see absolutely no harm in change to them.
That's pretty pathetic, no? The vets even want to make newbies experience even worse as it is at the time. Selfish kids.
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REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:09:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Xennifer Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:50:36 Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:49:04 *facepalm*
How is this tired argument against learning reform still around?
The game is approching a decade old, there's absolutely no reason not to further acellerate the pace at which new accounts can see access to content. It already takes years to fly anything much larger than a cruiser perfectly. Why not cut down the time on that process by a few months? There is a lot more to being an EVE veteran than skill gap.
I trained all my learning skills to max on both accounts years ago, but I see absolutely no harm in change to them.
That's pretty pathetic, no? The vets even want to make newbies experience even worse as it is at the time. Selfish kids.
Jasdemi, you're what? 21 years old right? That's what? About 10 years below the median age in this game? Move out of your parents basement and stop referring to the adults as kids!
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.12 19:22:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Xennifer Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:50:36 Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:49:04 *facepalm*
How is this tired argument against learning reform still around?
The game is approching a decade old, there's absolutely no reason not to further acellerate the pace at which new accounts can see access to content. It already takes years to fly anything much larger than a cruiser perfectly. Why not cut down the time on that process by a few months? There is a lot more to being an EVE veteran than skill gap.
I trained all my learning skills to max on both accounts years ago, but I see absolutely no harm in change to them.
That's pretty pathetic, no? The vets even want to make newbies experience even worse as it is at the time. Selfish kids.
Jasdemi, you're what? 21 years old right? That's what? About 10 years below the median age in this game? Move out of your parents basement and stop referring to the adults as kids!
Crazy stuff, you even discovered how old I am. You're seriously stalking other people on the internet. I'd be worried about myself if I were you. Jokes aside, you shouldn't take internet so seriously. Really, man.
Can't you just accept my opinion about the removal of learning skills?
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REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.12 20:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Xennifer Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:50:36 Edited by: Xennifer on 12/07/2010 18:49:04 *facepalm*
How is this tired argument against learning reform still around?
The game is approching a decade old, there's absolutely no reason not to further acellerate the pace at which new accounts can see access to content. It already takes years to fly anything much larger than a cruiser perfectly. Why not cut down the time on that process by a few months? There is a lot more to being an EVE veteran than skill gap.
I trained all my learning skills to max on both accounts years ago, but I see absolutely no harm in change to them.
That's pretty pathetic, no? The vets even want to make newbies experience even worse as it is at the time. Selfish kids.
Jasdemi, you're what? 21 years old right? That's what? About 10 years below the median age in this game? Move out of your parents basement and stop referring to the adults as kids!
Crazy stuff, you even discovered how old I am. You're seriously stalking other people on the internet. I'd be worried about myself if I were you. Jokes aside, you shouldn't take internet so seriously. Really, man.
Can't you just accept my opinion about the removal of learning skills?
Are you really this goofy? Have you looked at your forum signature recently? The image in your sig is a link to some kind of site where you keep track of different MMOs that you play. Your age is clearly listed right there. You put that there! You have got to get a grip on reality. Seriously. There is no stalking going on.
Tell you what, I accept your opinion just as much as you accept mine. That's none at all right? Cool. We are on the same page then. Cheers.
PL
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Hoxillian Montgomery
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:15:00 -
[37]
Anyway, going back to the topic... It is quite clear that the removal of the learning skill are based on speculations built up due to an announcement made by CCP.
No formal / official announcement had been made regarding the removal of the said skill. If there is one, then it is not posted on an a official board / website supported by CCP.
It is safe to continue training learning skills.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.12 21:39:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Hoxillian Montgomery Anyway, going back to the topic... It is quite clear that the removal of the learning skill are based on speculations built up due to an announcement made by CCP.
No formal / official announcement had been made regarding the removal of the said skill. If there is one, then it is not posted on an a official board / website supported by CCP.
It is safe to continue training learning skills.
Yes on all of that. But please don't feel like you have to take them straight to 5/5/5 and simply sit in a station until that happens. There is a middle path ( no I'm not Buddhist ) 5/4/5 is more than good. Especially if you are already outside your bonus speed training period. And by god get out there and play!
Efficiency is a good thing since waste is a bad thing but in the context of a game, some fun can be lost through relentless min/maxing. Really, go out there and have some fun. Do whatever you enjoy. Don't just sit and play spin the ship. You'll get bored.
Cheers, PL
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Danny Lonnegan
Caldari Nex Somes Ubertas Venator Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.07.12 22:42:00 -
[39]
Yeah, the problem isn't really learning skills. The problem is people telling brand new noobs that they need to spin their ships for a month and a half. Out of curiosity, I imported a brand new character into EVEmon and spent a few hours making skill plans for her. Each plan had the end goal of getting that character into a useful, fully T2 fit ship, with all related certificates claimed. Not one of those plans--not even the Avatar plan--called for 5/4/5 learning skills, let alone 5/5/5. A fully T2 fit Zealot doesn't even call for Learning 5.
It'd be a lot better if we told noobs to download EVEmon, pick a battlecruiser and a highly rated Battleclinic fitting, and make a skill plan for that (including certificates). Then, if they really want to push the learning skills to 5/5/5, they can do it 6 months later while they're flying something useful and fun. Yeah, in the long term, it'll cost them a couple days' worth of training, but who cares? They're a lot more likely to stick around long enough for the training to pay off that way.
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:15:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Danny Lonnegan Yeah, the problem isn't really learning skills. The problem is people telling brand new noobs that they need to spin their ships for a month and a half. Out of curiosity, I imported a brand new character into EVEmon and spent a few hours making skill plans for her. Each plan had the end goal of getting that character into a useful, fully T2 fit ship, with all related certificates claimed. Not one of those plans--not even the Avatar plan--called for 5/4/5 learning skills, let alone 5/5/5. A fully T2 fit Zealot doesn't even call for Learning 5.
Of course that's true. But still, in the long run (if you plan to play EVE for say more than 2 years) it's always best to train your learning skills first. If you just play another game for the first few months (like the CPP dev in the interview) it will always pay off to have your learning skills maxed out.
Next to that it has a psychological effect. Whenever you train a skill you'll always be asking yourself how much faster it would have been with max learning skills. It's really a very nice feeling to have them done with once and for all!!
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Reiisha
Evolution IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:18:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Tarasina What I see as the problem is the fact that "vets" don't seem to like change.
People who don't like change would quit EVE with any expansion. Vets are people who have gone through changes and are telling people to "adapt or die".
Fact is that, as has already been stated, EVE has grown this much despite the learning skills, so they can't be THAT bad, right?
"If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all"
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.13 09:50:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Reiisha People who don't like change would quit EVE with any expansion. Vets are people who have gone through changes and are telling people to "adapt or die".
Fact is that, as has already been stated, EVE has grown this much despite the learning skills, so they can't be THAT bad, right?
Well if I reverse that logic, vets couldn't care less if the learning skills were removed, they will "adapt or die" anyway.
And yes better have learning skills than no learning skills at all at the current training rate. That's what the OP's post was about, post #1 in the referred thread is about increasing skilltraining speed because it's so incredibly slow. Doesn't mean increasing the base attributes won't have the same effect or is bad per se.
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Vexidious
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Posted - 2010.07.13 15:48:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Pantload Learning skills don't have anything to do with suffering.
Riiiight... And that's about where I stopped reading.
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Star P'ergish
Minmatar DELUXE INVEST
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:03:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Vexidious
Originally by: Pantload Learning skills don't have anything to do with suffering.
Riiiight... And that's about where I stopped reading.
So you suffer when you read? If you donĘt care where you are, you ainĘt lost. |
Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:05:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Star P'ergish
Originally by: Vexidious
Originally by: Pantload Learning skills don't have anything to do with suffering.
Riiiight... And that's about where I stopped reading.
So you suffer when you read?
Not really, but reading totally brainless arguments by people who support learning skills is suffering, imo.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Star P'ergish
Minmatar DELUXE INVEST
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:12:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jasdemi but reading totally brainless arguments by people who support learning skills is suffering, imo.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
If you donĘt care where you are, you ainĘt lost. |
Xennifer
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:16:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Star P'ergish
Originally by: Jasdemi but reading totally brainless arguments by people who support learning skills is suffering, imo.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
When you die, nothing happens.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.13 16:17:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Pantload on 13/07/2010 16:18:00
Originally by: Vexidious
Originally by: Pantload Learning skills don't have anything to do with suffering.
Riiiight... And that's about where I stopped reading.
Why did that statement cause you to stop reading? Too much truth all in one dose for you?
Originally by: Star P'ergish
Originally by: Jasdemi but reading totally brainless arguments by people who support learning skills is suffering, imo.
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Epic reply!
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:12:00 -
[49]
Please remain on topic. If you must disagree please do not troll and offer constructive advice. Thread cleaned of trolling remarks.
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact Us |
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 18:36:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Jasdemi on 13/07/2010 18:36:44
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Please remain on topic. If you must disagree please do not troll and offer constructive advice. Thread cleaned of trolling remarks.
Thanks for cleaning this thread of trolls. However, this topic isn't getting any further, how about you guys at CCP officially state something about this problem?
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REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
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Faccat
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:01:00 -
[51]
First, it's not about a sense of entitlement, at least for many of us. It is about gameplay.
Learning skills benefit everyone. They benefit everyone in all aspects of the game. At the same time, they do not open up any aspect of the game. Even the social skills make a player better at the missions he runs.
The learning skills do not make any more ships or equipment available. They don't enhance any other skills. They just make learning faster. These skills have an eventual payoff down the road where all the same skills would have been learned and learning would then be faster compared to directly training.
So, a new character (or any character really) is asked to make a wager against the length of his stay in Eve. A new player should training the amount of learning skills appropriate to the time they think they will continue playing Eve Online. For the game to continue, Eve needs new players to come and stay. If they are going to stay, they should be training to 5/4/5, or somewhere at that amount. So they have the conflicting goals of learning to play the game and training the learning skills. The veterans clinging to their tremendous training advantage that they have "earned" say just skip them and let the gap in skills grow even more.
It is very problematic that players are being asked to guess how long they play. Players should be risking ships, isk, goods, POS's, they shouldn't be paying with relatively boredom for a month for a payoff 18 months from now. Nor should they be told to gimp themselves so they can fly faster. Learning skills have nothing to do with the gameplay of Eve.
I put "earned" in quotes because it was only earned through longevity and not through actual gameplay.
How about making slots 11-15 which hold implants from 1-10 in power and don't get destroyed with the character? Maybe not implants but some DNA alteration. Existing players would receive them equal to their current level, new players could make these purchases as they can afford it.
Or allow skills to train on 2 characters at once for the first xxx points, so one character can learn the game, the other can learn to learn. (seriously, learn to learn is a lame skill)
For reference, I'm a new player but I trained the learning skills to 5/5 in int and mem, and 5/4 on the others with learning at 5 also.
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Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:01:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 13/07/2010 18:36:44
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Please remain on topic. If you must disagree please do not troll and offer constructive advice. Thread cleaned of trolling remarks.
Thanks for cleaning this thread of trolls. However, this topic isn't getting any further, how about you guys at CCP officially state something about this problem?
According to everything you've said, this is already set in stone. What would need from them if you've been spouting factual information all along hmm?
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:11:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 13/07/2010 18:36:44
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Please remain on topic. If you must disagree please do not troll and offer constructive advice. Thread cleaned of trolling remarks.
Thanks for cleaning this thread of trolls. However, this topic isn't getting any further, how about you guys at CCP officially state something about this problem?
According to everything you've said, this is already set in stone. What would need from them if you've been spouting factual information all along hmm?
Stop trolling already. I've never said that the removal of learnings is set in stone.
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:22:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jasdemi
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: Jasdemi Edited by: Jasdemi on 13/07/2010 18:36:44
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Please remain on topic. If you must disagree please do not troll and offer constructive advice. Thread cleaned of trolling remarks.
Thanks for cleaning this thread of trolls. However, this topic isn't getting any further, how about you guys at CCP officially state something about this problem?
According to everything you've said, this is already set in stone. What would need from them if you've been spouting factual information all along hmm?
Stop trolling already. I've never said that the removal of learnings is set in stone.
Sure you did. You stated it as a fact several times. I'll be happy to show you where.
As for trolling... You may dismount from your high horse now. The Mods had to clean up after your trolling, as well
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Pantload
Sure you did. You stated it as a fact several times. I'll be happy to show you where.
As for trolling... You may dismount from your high horse now. The Mods had to clean up after your trolling, as well
What trolling? I don't even know how it works. I'm pure as an innocent caldarian slave kid. Now stop talking off topic.
I personally strongly suggest to keep learning skills, because:
1. Learning skills keep impatient WoW players away. 2. Learning skills keep young players away, who can't pay severals months of subs for practically nothing. Paying several months for nothing ensures that only the most serious and mature players keep subscribing. 3. EVE is a harsh world, no free candies here, hence no free attributes. If you want free stuff, go back to WoW. Pathetic freeloader. 4. Learning skills reward patience and planning. People without patience will be disadvantaged, which is good. 5. Internet spaceships is a serious business, hence only the serious will survive. Serious players train learnings. nonserious ones don't. 6. Removal of learnings will kill the community, since all the lazy freeloaders will rush in and destroy it. Without learnings new players will train all skills in no time and become too competitive. Noobs are noobs. There's no exception. Survive the life of a noob or leave.
If CCP ever decides to alter the Learnings, I'll be one of the first players to leave. The date of learning skills removal will be the date of the transformation from EVE to EMHKO (EVE MEETS HELLO KITTY ONLINE).
Please CCP, don't remove or alter the learning skills. This system is working as intended. Don't break working features.
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REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
Nuela
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Posted - 2010.07.15 16:31:00 -
[56]
Ok remove learning skills.
+10 to attributes? Why?
People want learning removed, remove them. No reason to change attributes.
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AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.15 20:12:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Jasdemi Stop trolling already. I've never said that the removal of learnings is set in stone.
So you didn't say that learning skills were being dropped and adviced new players to not train them due to that "fact"?
*awaits another lie* ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Pantload
Gallente The Underpants Gnomes Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2010.07.15 20:20:00 -
[58]
Originally by: AterraX
Originally by: Jasdemi Stop trolling already. I've never said that the removal of learnings is set in stone.
So you didn't say that learning skills were being dropped and adviced new players to not train them due to that "fact"?
*awaits another lie*
You noticed he edited the hell out of his last post there and took out all the obnoxious trolling crap about how much he loves learning skills and how great they are?
If you missed that, I quoted it in the big learnings thread.
Also, go look him up on EveBoard. Look through the list of his skills. If I had been playing for 1.5-2 years and had butchered my training that badly and didn't know it ( which he doesn't ) I'd probably be mad at the game too.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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AterraX
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.07.15 20:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Pantload
You noticed he edited the hell out of his last post there and took out all the obnoxious trolling crap about how much he loves learning skills and how great they are?
If you missed that, I quoted it in the big learnings thread.
Also, go look him up on EveBoard. Look through the list of his skills. If I had been playing for 1.5-2 years and had butchered my training that badly and didn't know it ( which he doesn't ) I'd probably be mad at the game too.
Yeah, I noticed. I also remember his words here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1290489&page=20#595 ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Fact of EVE forums: They will always come an anounomys alt-toon and question someones character... |
Jasdemi
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Posted - 2010.07.15 20:36:00 -
[60]
So much attention. I luv you guys. :)
=-=-=-=-=
REMOVE LEARNINGS, FFS! |
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