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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
104
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Posted - 2012.07.21 07:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok this is a feeler to see what people think of an idea i had for rebalancing black ops.
First off a general thing - Increased jump distance - 6 ly would be nice but i guess you could leave it at 5ly if you wanted.
now the idea itself Simply put, split the class into two - bridgers and combat vessels
Bridgers - vastly increased fuel bay size - role bonus reducing fuel consumption for ships using the bridge - reduced weapon hardpoints to leave more slots for utility items - can fit a covert cloaking device - bonus to remote repair/remote cap transfer
combat vessels - cannot fit covert jump portal generators - tech 2 resist profiles - increased grid and cpu - more weapon hardpoints - role bonus reducing capacitor level required to intiate jump drive (im not sure about this one, its intended to encourage a 'get in, kill, get out' style of combat but im open to suggestions here)
Anyway there it is, Im interested to see what people think.
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Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
58
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Posted - 2012.07.21 08:23:00 -
[2] - Quote
I like the idea. Something for Logi players to look at getting as well as combat pilots. I'd make sure the bridge version as T2 resists as well since it could be used as a logi platform and would need to be defensible.
+1 Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
106
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Posted - 2012.07.21 16:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
I deliberately shyed away from giving the bridgers t2 resists - if you want a mid battle repair platform just rr fit a combat black ops or covert tech 3. I went more for the role of post battle top ups - repping damaged ships and recharging cap before jumping out. I just think it fits the whole 'get in, kill fast, get out' schtick of the black ops much better |
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
58
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Posted - 2012.07.21 16:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
I figured that was what you were going for, but why would anyone pay the cost of a black ops ship just to bridge people to a fight and then sit hidden somewhere until the fight is over?
What I was thinking of, since it is a T2 BS and has a high cost, was have a pure utility ship worth the cost. Cloak, reps, cyno, heavy defense, and the ability to project fleets around. Maybe have logi 5 as a prereq. Then you'd have a ship that could stay in the fight tossing out reps, able to take some fire, and worth the cost. This would also give a tiered progression to logistics from T1 cruiser, T2 cruiser, BS, then Carrier. Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
Kieron VonDeux
54
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Posted - 2012.07.21 22:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
IIRC, CCP didn't want a cloaky BS sized T2 pvp aimed ship because it could be quite unbalancing. Especially something that could be considered a cloaky jump capable HAC.
In a counter proposal, I suggest they remove the Black Ops skill bounus "multiples the cloaked velocity" and add a "increases the jump/bridge range by 25% per level" .
With JDC V and Blaok Ops V, the max jump range would be 7 ly. That would take the max jump range of the Black Ops from 4.5 ly to 7 ly. This would be still less than a Titan with JDC V of little over 7.8 ly. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
308
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Posted - 2012.07.21 22:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Or they could just add a +jump range per level bonus, because the cloaked velocity bonus owns bones. |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
107
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Posted - 2012.07.22 21:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ruareve wrote:I figured that was what you were going for, but why would anyone pay the cost of a black ops ship just to bridge people to a fight and then sit hidden somewhere until the fight is over?
What I was thinking of, since it is a T2 BS and has a high cost, was have a pure utility ship worth the cost. Cloak, reps, cyno, heavy defense, and the ability to project fleets around. Maybe have logi 5 as a prereq. Then you'd have a ship that could stay in the fight tossing out reps, able to take some fire, and worth the cost. This would also give a tiered progression to logistics from T1 cruiser, T2 cruiser, BS, then Carrier.
You mean like anyone who has to cargo fit their black ops because its the only way to carry enough fuel to bridge a gang without can related shenanigans?
i just dont think its needed for what the ship is intended to do, even if you do want to jump it in people have been RR fitting black ops with their current resist profile and EHP for quite a while anyway. I also think its the easiest way to differentiate the roles of the two ships without resorting to extra role bonuses. |
killroy v2
Thorn Project Black Thorne Alliance
5
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Posted - 2012.07.22 22:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
+1 for you good sir |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
119
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Posted - 2012.07.25 02:50:00 -
[9] - Quote
What about adding a small (about 75,000 m^3) Ship Maintenance Bay and a small corp hanger to the bridging ship. This would allow it to be a mobile refitting platform and allow it to bring some frigates into combat with it as some additional utility.
That being said, if the combat ship cant use the bridge, then the bridging ship doenst need to have a role bonus to bridging fuel cost, you could just lower the cost for the BOPS bridge. |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
115
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Posted - 2012.07.25 16:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sigras wrote:What about adding a small (about 75,000 m^3) Ship Maintenance Bay and a small corp hanger to the bridging ship. This would allow it to be a mobile refitting platform and allow it to bring some frigates into combat with it as some additional utility.
That being said, if the combat ship cant use the bridge, then the bridging ship doenst need to have a role bonus to bridging fuel cost, you could just lower the cost for the BOPS bridge.
The idea is not to make it into a refit platform, just to make it more of a pre bridge and post battle support ship. Dont get me wrong I like the idea a lot but i think it gives it a little too much utility.
As for the second idea I honestly didnt think of that, good catch. Ill have to think of a new role bonus for the bridger, watch this space. |
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King Rothgar
Path of the Fallen
240
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Posted - 2012.07.25 20:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
I like the idea of a bridging version and a direct combat version. I'd make a few minor changes though. I think the bridging version should get a small maintenance bay, possibly only able to hold a frigate or two. The main reason for it is to act as a refitting service deep in enemy space. With this ability, RR bonuses and such could be skipped. So I'd move the various bonuses to impact range and fuel usage. It should be a ship about rapid mobility and off grid support of stealthy forces. RR bonuses don't really fit in with that.
The combat version could go two ways, EW or gank and tank. Either way, they should be roughly even with navy versions of the ship. I would consider a redeemer being nothing more than a navy geddon with a jump drive as balanced. I would strip the combat versions of their cloaking bonuses however. This would be replaced with a jump range bonus instead. Like AF's, HAC's and CS's, I'd like to see them have similar EHP to the navy version but achieve this through higher resistances rather than raw HP. The sole advantage you get for paying 2-4x the cost of a navy ship should be the added mobility. If it's done that way, it's pretty well balanced. If they start roflstomping other BS's, pricing can't be used to balance them. The Troll is trolling. |
Lombax
0
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Posted - 2012.08.26 05:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP should really look into this ideaGǪ have more variety of T2 BSGǪ. just like cruisersGǪ there are the force recon and combat recon vessels |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
379
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Posted - 2012.08.26 06:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
Blackops can already be fit for bridging or combat, I don't know what you guys are complaining about. A blops with a fuel bay big enough to bridge gangs multiple times without fuel truck support would make running blops drop gangs stupidly easy. Additionally, most of the blops can already do strong combat fits-- blops with T2 resists and even more offensive bonuses would be really overpowered.
If anything CCP should make them more sneaky by giving them covops cloaks and bumping jump range / decreasing jump drive (not bridge) fuel consumption a bit. Making them even better for combat than they already are would be dumb. |
Gerrick Palivorn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
318
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Posted - 2012.08.26 07:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
OP +1
I have been pondering the same idea's and ironically was in the middle of a huge write up involving this very idea. Splitting the covert and the combat roles like the Recons makes complete sense. I was leaning more towards an evolution of the combat recon with my thoughts.
Have the Combat Black-Ops be powerful Ewar platforms with jump drives, instead of creating new capital ships to act as Ewar for Cap Fleets operate the combat Black-Ops as heavily tanked Ewar support for Capital fleets. - They should not have a Cloak bonus - They should have the jump range of about a dreadnaught - They should have a module similar to a Triage or a Siege module that uses Stront to have their EWAR bypass EWAR immunity on Supers and Sieged/Triaged Capitals; --the module should provide a massive bonus to EWAR used on Cap/Supers and drop the number of target down to 1, forcing the ship to focus it's EWAR on one opponent --the Ewar Siege module should provide the effects on the targeted ship, all other conventional forms of EWAR would be disabled while in effect --the Ewar Siege module acts as Siege/Triage modules in negative effects, cannot recieve RR, immune to conventional Ewar, inability to move/jump, 5 minute timer, etc... - They should not have weapon damage bonuses - They need to have T2 resists to better operate in the midst of Capitals and Supers
As for Bridging Black-Ops this ship would act as a lifeline to Black-Ops fleets, I agree with adding a small SMA but not Corp Hanger, switching bonuses to fuel used and jump range, and having the ability to fit a covops cloak. Remove 1/2 of the weapons hardpoints and add a small rep amount role bonus to the ship for after battle repairs.
A special note to CCP Santa; please can we have covops cloaked ships removed from local, I'll be a good boy! >:-) |
Kitt JT
League of Non-Aligned Worlds Nulli Secunda
79
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Posted - 2012.08.26 08:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
We really don't need ANOTHER black ops BS.
Honestly, the ones we have are already pretty great.
What do they actually need?
A) Increased fuel bay, or a reduction in 'topes used to bridge. Seriously. This sucks.
B) maybe an increased jump range. The range is a little short. 4.5 LY? 6LY would be nice. Ballanced as well I think. Perhaps I'm biased though. |
CaleAdaire
Research Industry Mining and Support Gatekeepers Universe
53
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Posted - 2012.08.26 13:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
I like this Idea, like Ruareve said, it's a really good Logistics growth plan. Maybe make some of the skills that are not a prerequisite for T2 logi cruisers but necessary to be a good pilot (multitasking for one) as the prereq's for the logistics BS. I'm bored... Let's shoot the rocks. |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
138
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Posted - 2012.08.29 18:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ok so adding a Ship Maintenance Array to the bridger black ops seems like a popular choice. It gives the gang the option to customise for a target without having to compromise security by relying on stations for refits and you can carry back up/alternatively fit ships. One suggestion i would make if this is to be the way to take it would be to increase the BOs cargo bay the same way as its fuel bay, allowing it to carry the refit modules for the rest of its gang. It then becomes kinda like a mini carrier supporting and transporting the rest of the gang.
Second question, if it does get one how big should it be? I saw 75,000m3 suggested upthread, enough for three bombers and change, which seems fairly sensible however i was wondering about recons. Now what would people think as to a sensible size if we take recons into account? For reference heres the recon sizes.
Rapier - 85k falcon - 96k arazu - 116k pilgrim - 120k
Personally I'm leaning more towards bombers only simply because to incorporate all the recons you get a bit silly in terms of bay size and even then you can only carry one. |
Tempelman N
Vengance Inc.
1
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Posted - 2012.10.29 17:37:00 -
[18] - Quote
I love all the ideas being thrown around here and I'll be frank, Black ops need longer jump range period. Tanks on Black ops are fine, nobody's going to commit a 1 billion ISK ship if they know there going to lose. For DPS there also fine, I get 1200 DPS from my torp Widow and 600 with cruise so the DPS aint the problem. The problem is the range, its a puddle jumper, its not sneaky at all and is that not the roll she plays? I say a covert ops cloak would be a super awesome + for the black ops because now people would be alot more "Clokay" with them and that would bring them out more. The fact of the matter is, Black ops are not supposed to be able to stand toe too toe with a T1 fleet. If they were then you would see Alliances like -A- and goons Spamming Black ops BS's like its going out of style. Your supposed to have the true element of surprise, except you relly dont because of local channel. Space is dangerous, SO MAKE IT ******* DANGEROUS! GIVE BLACK OPS MORE RANGE AND SCRAP LOCAL! |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
80
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Posted - 2012.10.29 19:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
only capitals have hangars.... The combat one could instead be given bomb bonus The Recon option should be the more cloaky jump bridge bonused version rr bonus is probably out of the question more wishful thinking along with more ewar i think ewar is out of place with battleships i think the name explains why. |
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ISD Cyberdyne
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
27
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Posted - 2012.10.29 20:38:00 -
[20] - Quote
Some great discussion on Black Ops. It would be very nice to see the Black Ops become better as CCP continues to revamp the roles and abilities of our ships.
Very much like the idea of role assignment to Black Ops. Please continue this productive discourse, these ideas are great! ISD Cyberdyne Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
653
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Posted - 2012.10.29 20:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
I fly a BLOPs. I don't take it out too often, mostly because it has limits to how it can be used in a practical sense.
Outside of a few posted videos, I don't hear about these looking for combat. I hear about them keeping a low profile and working behind the scenes. Frankly, this is not surprising, as you can fit a decent BS for a fraction of the cost.
Since they are behind the scenes, I think focusing on what they could do in that sense is practical.
Some kind of specialized boosting for covops, maybe a fitting service or hangar for a spare covops frig or two. Accepting you don't want to take them into combat directly, maybe giving them a spy drone for in system use.
Here is an idea: Spy Drone Functions only when in same system as BLOPs parent ship. Works only when BLOPs is cloaked. Warps cloaked, (not detectable, it's a camera drone) Essentially a camera drone that can watch a station or gate. The BLOPs can warp to the drone, or simply recall it, as needed. The overview always stays local to the BLOPS, but on grid items seen only by the drone can have highlighted presence.
Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1751
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Posted - 2012.10.29 20:59:00 -
[22] - Quote
Darek Castigatus wrote:Ok this is a feeler to see what people think of an idea i had for rebalancing black ops.
First off a general thing - Increased jump distance - 6 ly would be nice but i guess you could leave it at 5ly if you wanted.
now the idea itself Simply put, split the class into two - bridgers and combat vessels
Bridgers - vastly increased fuel bay size - role bonus reducing fuel consumption for ships using the bridge - reduced weapon hardpoints to leave more slots for utility items - can fit a covert cloaking device - bonus to remote repair/remote cap transfer
combat vessels - cannot fit covert jump portal generators - tech 2 resist profiles - increased grid and cpu - more weapon hardpoints - role bonus reducing capacitor level required to intiate jump drive (im not sure about this one, its intended to encourage a 'get in, kill, get out' style of combat but im open to suggestions here)
Anyway there it is, Im interested to see what people think.
1) Give the combat version the existing cloak benefits 2) swap around the Jump bonus of the combat version with the RR bonus of the Bridgers
and I will +1 this. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Nariya Kentaya
Tartarus Ventures Surely You're Joking
223
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Posted - 2012.10.29 21:45:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ruareve wrote:I figured that was what you were going for, but why would anyone pay the cost of a black ops ship just to bridge people to a fight and then sit hidden somewhere until the fight is over?
What I was thinking of, since it is a T2 BS and has a high cost, was have a pure utility ship worth the cost. Cloak, reps, cyno, heavy defense, and the ability to project fleets around. Maybe have logi 5 as a prereq. Then you'd have a ship that could stay in the fight tossing out reps, able to take some fire, and worth the cost. This would also give a tiered progression to logistics from T1 cruiser, T2 cruiser, BS, then Carrier. Perhaps the ship, being a black ops (and therefore SHOULD deviate from expected/normal roles within ship composition) should give Additional bonuses to boosts provided by cammand ships in the same fleet as it, that way in can bridge in a fleet+cammand ship, then as long as that cammand ship is alive it increases the effectiveness of that pilots boosting by X%, would give preference to using cammand ships to boost fleets instead of titans/T3's, and would give the black ops a unique dynamic.
though what do i know, restrictions like that woudl prolly be a ***** to code, and probably horrible to balance, maybe maximum 2 per fleet or something (like the 2 blackops with highest blackops ksill assist with bonuses, anymore who join give no bonuses until the toher 2 either leave or die).
just a thought. |
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