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MarketServicer 69
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Posted - 2010.07.13 05:22:00 -
[1]
I've read the guides and most of the threads on sleepers\WH's on this forum. While there is a general sense that the damage levels increase from c1\c2 to c3\c4 and then finally to c5\c6, the discussion seems very general and could use in my opinion more specific examples of what can be used to tank\rep various levels.
For example, as someone new to WHs I have purposely started small. I'm in a c2 now and run a little bit overkill by using a Navy Scorp with no local tank and just a max resists setup. I also box a couple basilisk that chain each other for cap and shields and keep the Scorp repped up. How far could this setup go? At the last perimeter checkpoint this evening there were two sleeper BSs hammering on the logistics ships and the Scorp, alternating between them of course. I think at one point the shields on one of the basilisk fell to 80 percent :)
So I started to think. How far could such a setup go and then again, what would be the minimum for c2 stuff like that I did on the overkill tonight???
I think a drake could easily handle c1\c2. What about my setup? Could I jump to a c4..maybe I dare I look at a c5 or would alpha damage result in getting one volleyed before reps could cycle?
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Jita Squatter
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Posted - 2010.07.13 07:28:00 -
[2]
No.
Longer answer: With decent skills and that ship, you shouldn't have to much trouble in a c3. A c4, you really need a friend. In a c5/6 bring several friends.
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:27:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jita Squatter
A c4, you really need a friend.
No you don't. You need a T3.
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People's elbow
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Posted - 2010.07.13 12:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: XXSketchxx
Originally by: Jita Squatter
A c4, you really need a friend.
No you don't. You need a T3.
which T3 needed and which fit? ty
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XXSketchxx
Gallente Remote Soviet Industries Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.07.13 14:38:00 -
[5]
see a couple pages into ships and modules
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Cosmic Rainbow
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Posted - 2010.07.13 19:14:00 -
[6]
funny finding you here Sketch :)
for C4's you need to be able to tank 2000+ DPS if you are doing the professional sites. For C5's you need to be able to tank around 2750+ to be able to do the professional sites (I would say 3000+ but that's just me). Dont have any stats for C6.
For C3 you can get away with around 1200+ dps tank.
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Xessej
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Posted - 2010.07.13 20:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow For C3 you can get away with around 1200+ dps tank.
That's really high. The worst c3, 3 BS + assorted frigs and cruisers, does around 900 dps. Only way you're taking 1200 is if you mess up the triggers really badly.
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MarketServicer 69
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Posted - 2010.07.14 01:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cosmic Rainbow funny finding you here Sketch :)
for C4's you need to be able to tank 2000+ DPS if you are doing the professional sites. For C5's you need to be able to tank around 2750+ to be able to do the professional sites (I would say 3000+ but that's just me). Dont have any stats for C6.
For C3 you can get away with around 1200+ dps tank.
Excellent. I like things quantified so I can run the numbers on my logistics setups. Which brings me to a point or maybe another question, you be the judge. And that is: Some of the guides don't seem to keen on using logistics ships. I've wondered whether that is because they dont know how they work as a force multiplier in a chain setup OR whether its because they assume people use just ONE logistics to keep multiple damage dealers up?
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Induc
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.14 03:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: MarketServicer 69 Excellent. I like things quantified so I can run the numbers on my logistics setups. Which brings me to a point or maybe another question, you be the judge. And that is: Some of the guides don't seem to keen on using logistics ships. I've wondered whether that is because they dont know how they work as a force multiplier in a chain setup OR whether its because they assume people use just ONE logistics to keep multiple damage dealers up?
Because there is no way for the logistic to avoid getting aggroed by the sleepers. I've heard of people using them successfully but I've never tried it myself, I suppose you need at least 2 logistics so they can keep each other up.
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.14 03:08:00 -
[10]
Can your Basilisks tank that full wave damage? because at some point they will try. RR in c4 t3 gangs is an easy way to swap or keep aggro, it doesn't take an awful lot of it to get sleepers interested in you. ( Incidentally you don't lose drones doing that either ). Last BS+Basi gang a friend tried to triple-box ended up two Basilisks less.
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MarketServicer 69
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Posted - 2010.07.14 05:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Von Kapiche Can your Basilisks tank that full wave damage? because at some point they will try. RR in c4 t3 gangs is an easy way to swap or keep aggro, it doesn't take an awful lot of it to get sleepers interested in you. ( Incidentally you don't lose drones doing that either ). Last BS+Basi gang a friend tried to triple-box ended up two Basilisks less.
Did your friend who lost the basilisks have at least two of them, no local reps\all resist shield tanks, and have them chaining each other feeding cap and shields? (one mod each\more shield rep as situation called for)
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.14 06:36:00 -
[12]
Originally by: MarketServicer 69
Originally by: Von Kapiche Can your Basilisks tank that full wave damage? because at some point they will try. RR in c4 t3 gangs is an easy way to swap or keep aggro, it doesn't take an awful lot of it to get sleepers interested in you. ( Incidentally you don't lose drones doing that either ). Last BS+Basi gang a friend tried to triple-box ended up two Basilisks less.
Did your friend who lost the basilisks have at least two of them, no local reps\all resist shield tanks, and have them chaining each other feeding cap and shields? (one mod each\more shield rep as situation called for)
Yep, was set up for RR properly, even knowing that the logis would likely end up tanking sometime. I don't know the details, apparently half a wave switched aggro to one or something like that and he wasn't fast enough, and once you lose one then the other one has no defence.
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2010.07.14 10:32:00 -
[13]
One big difference between c2 and c4 is that the native c4 sites start to get a significant amount of warp scrambling so if things go wrong they tend to go very wrong. This also increases your risk from PvP as you can't warp out when you see combat probes.
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MarketServicer 69
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Posted - 2010.07.14 15:36:00 -
[14]
Was going over the numbers in my head last night and the conclusion was that the guardian was better than the basilisk in most circumstances. Two guardians could probably cover a c4, with three being preferred. A basilisk might get between 3000 to 3500 shields. The guardians will be around 6k armor. The difference is important for the c4 damage which some posters have pegged at 3000dps.
Now, in terms of when\if you get jumped, I only know that I had thought that the time to jump someone if I was the attacker was after they killed the last one and before they finished salvaging. Are their ballsy groups out there ganking people in c4s when they are in midfight and hence themselves tanking 3k+ dps when it cycles to their fleet members? I see the important difference being as the one poster said that in the c4's it really matters not whether you spam the scanner if half your guys are scrammed by the sleepers. You are there to stay. So it comes down to whether your assailant fights fair and its an even fight or whether it's a gank, ie, a force twice your size with mucho ewar, etc. Doesn't seem to be much you can do against that except have your own anti neuting presence on standby and make sure your logistics fit max eccm in mids. Also, bring one more guardian or two more than your numbers suggest you'll need.......
Perhaps another question: Has anyone noted how long sleepers focus on one target as a group before changing?
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Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.14 16:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: MarketServicer 69
Perhaps another question: Has anyone noted how long sleepers focus on one target as a group before changing?
They don't always switch as a group, I've seen 2-3 switch on their own, iirc all the same type though. Time-wise I don't know ( I'm sure someone's actually timed it ) but I'd be surprise if the minimum was much more than 30s.
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MarketServicer 69
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Posted - 2010.07.14 17:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Von Kapiche Edited by: Von Kapiche on 14/07/2010 16:38:49
Originally by: MarketServicer 69
Perhaps another question: Has anyone noted how long sleepers focus on one target as a group before changing?
They don't always switch as a group, I've seen 2-3 switch on their own, iirc all the same type though. Time-wise I don't know ( I'm sure someone's actually timed it ) but I'd be surprise if the minimum was much more than 30s.
Been on ops with Scimitars & Rooks, neither of which have enormous buffers, and they're fine as long as they've got a pilot ( or at least half a pilot ) who can pay full attention when needed. I'm just a little dubious about triple boxing especially with 66% of it non-damage contributing aggro-taking little ships. Can't find a two BS+logicists setup?
Maybe a two bs\two logi setup. The thing with logistics is that you need to in order to chain cap and cover your repping. I know when I three box in c2 I am glued to the watch boxes and occassionally click the scanner....
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Vilgan Mazran
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.07.14 20:06:00 -
[17]
holy crap some of those numbers are high.
C3: 700ish dps from anoms, 900ish from profession sites C4: 1400ish anoms, 1650ish profession sites C5: <less sure here, i just know 2 logi is fine for anoms. 2500ish I think? C6: OVER 9000!!!
Tengu can be built to local tank C4s pretty easily while still putting out solid dps. Legion can do C3s, or possibly C4s (sig tanking to a degree) but puts out abysmal dps when tanked for C4s.
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