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Saelie
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:13:00 -
[1]
First off, let me open by saying that I'm no apologist. I do not think this game is perfect. A lot of things need to be changed and fixed, and there's a lot of room for things to improve. That said, I am realistic. Watching these forums for as long as I have has given me some insight into things, and having a business degree gives me some insight into corporate philosophy. Evaluating all the posts I've been reading on the forums lately, I've come to a conclusion about all the complaints I see lately.
You guys expect way too much.
How many complaints have I seen that walking in stations was never going to happen? Hundreds. Thousands. People were complaining about it since at least '08. It became a running joke. Now CCP has announced that they're committing a large pool of resources to it and players are complaining about that. CCP remembers this.
How many threads were created the last time CCP adjusted the PvP balance by slowing down nano-ships? Again when they shortened the range of ECM? What do you honestly think will happen if they change, say, rockets and people start getting blown up by rocket-fit ships? Whenever they fix anything that affects anyone, someone complains about the fix. CCP remembers this.
How many posts actually go to detail the bugs and fixes that players want? Almost all of them are rants with very little evidence to support them, many along the lines of 'This sucks, change it,' such that the quality ones about issues known to be broken get lost in a sea of tears. Ideas for new features are much the same way - The lone good idea that would bring great improvement to the game is washed off the forums by ideas that are, frankly, ill-thought-out, badly-organized, narrow-minded, or just plain stupid. CCP remembers this.
How many bugs or problems that people had with EVE *were* eventually fixed by CCP and now lie forgotten as if they never existed? Rarely is anything resembling gratitude expressed. The more common result is people complaining about the change. Sov mechanics, the nano nerf, ECM changes, all requested by players. Changes to the Titan and to motherships, requested by players. The Rorqual and Orca, both introduced because players wanted it. The creation of a player-operated economy for POS fuel and the ability to fortify wormholes without needing to haul fuel around constantly, brought to us with PI. Rarely the gratitude lasts five days beyond the patch's deployment, and it is instead replaced with a forum full of whining and moaning about things that weren't done, things that weren't fixed, things that didn't happen. They can't even give us gifts without us filling two pages of General Discussion with threads about how much it sucks. CCP remembers this.
The playerbase has created a situation that is unwinnable by CCP. You expect everything, you expect it quickly, and you expect it perfect. You expect them to do things they do not have the time, money, or personnel for. Further, you all have differing expectations of what EVE should be. One man's fix is another man's nerf. The end result is a situation where there is no good course of action CCP can take because every action results in the same negative response. Thus, they are choosing to ignore a playerbase that comes across as fickle and unreasonable and carry on with their other projects, suspecting that the fire and hatred will burn itself out as it usually does and relying on new players to replace those who leave.
TL;DR version - If you think the players are being ignored, it's because the players have given CCP good reason to ignore them. Like the screaming baby that won't shut up no matter what you do for it, your only way to avoid frustration is to ignore it completely.
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John Holt
Caldari Celtic Dragon's
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:16:00 -
[2]
I agree. The game is not perfect, but CCP has done a lot in an effort to perfect it. Players should appreciate CCP more than they do.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:18:00 -
[3]
Yes, because when the audience gets to apathy; they really are doing great. Right?
If you ever run a service and you start ignoring your customers you're going to be out of business sooner or later.
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Gariuys
Evil Strangers Inc.
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Yes, because when the audience gets to apathy; they really are doing great. Right?
If you ever run a service and you start ignoring your customers you're going to be out of business sooner or later.
Yeah, cause there's nothing between apathy and rampant whining and *****ing?
But that's the fate of those that work in the service industry. Any service, gratefull users/customers/etc. are rare gems.
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Celestine Santora
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:21:00 -
[5]
Originally by: John Holt I agree. The game is not perfect, but CCP has done a lot in an effort to perfect it. Players should appreciate CCP more than they do.
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ThisIsNotMyAlt
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:23:00 -
[6]
very well written. agree 95% ( 5% not agreeing because of letting crying babys lie around ) |
sue denim
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:25:00 -
[7]
I don't remember caring about being able to walk in stations? I don't care about any of their expansions really I think the game would be awesome if we rolled back to mid castor :P
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:26:00 -
[8]
Well the whole WiS whining/debacle can be attributed to poor expectation management. CCP made it seem like it was so close... Yet it felt like no new progress was ever made, and it was sitting just outside of reach. If CCP had said "hey guys, we're working on this really cool idea where you can get off your ships and walk around. It's a lot of work though, and probably won't be out for a couple years, but here's a cool trailer so you know what we're doing. In the meantime, we'll continue to make Eve a better game, and we've assigned a specialty polish team of 5 devs to directly address the concerns raised by the CSM that YOU feel are most important as part of our ongoing Commitment to Excellence." then can you imagine how much manlove they would have right now? How different things would be?
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Yes, because when the audience gets to apathy; they really are doing great. Right?
If you ever run a service and you start ignoring your customers you're going to be out of business sooner or later.
Actually I'm pretty sure the op means ccp ignores the forum trolls and not the customers in general. I mean even I know that the majority of threads and poasts here are from people who are prissed that their little corner of eve is not up to their standards but rage that zomg the entire games sucks and is dying!!!111 because of it. Not to say that some certain players corners need some major attention like nullsec fleet fights but everything else in nullsec works mostly fine in comparison. It also annoys me personally that fw is not going to get looked at for at least a year and a half but I also realise that the entire active fw population is less than some medium sized alliances or even corps for that matter and so we get shuffled off to the end of the development line for the features that will be popular with nearly the entire game. Tbh I'm happy that we have an official timetable to go with the usual soon so we will see. Just sucks its going to take another 18 months to get there.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Soma Khan
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Saelie
You guys expect way too much.
because quantity is better than quality?
Originally by: CCP the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features
CSM/CCP Meetings Minutes, June 2010
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KaarBaak
Minmatar Hell's Librarians Darkmatter Initiative
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:32:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Saelie Like the screaming baby that won't shut up no matter what you do for it, your only way to avoid frustration is to ignore it completely.
I'm not sure THAT is the answer.
I run a service-based company, and I often joke that I never receive calls when everything runs smoothly. Nobody calls me at the end of the day and says "Hey, everything ran smoothly today and your product has been a great help. Thanks!" Never.
They call when they have a problem. That's what they pay for. They paid for a functioning product. When it fails to perform as sold, they call and let me know that it's not performing. About 50% of the time they are civil about it. 50% of the time you would think that I am threatening the life of their children. Even when it's the first time they call in 2 years, they tend to go on and on about how they have problems all of the time, &etc.
But you know what? I listen to them and I fix their problems. Even when the problem is self-inflicted. Because that is what they pay me to do. If you can think of a job/service wherein people pay you and then constantly lay praise on you for what they are paying for, I'd love to apply.
KB
BTW....there's a mass test today...are you participating? =vinur allra manna
MetaGaming |
Dr Cron
Northern Lights Number 5 Hydroponic Zone
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:40:00 -
[12]
Not saying I disagree with your overall analysis, but how do some things such as invisible station agro timers persist for years and years after hundreds of petitions, posts and bug reports. Players remember this. Signature removed for not being EVE Related. Zymurgist |
Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Zeba Actually I'm pretty sure the op means ccp ignores the forum trolls and not the customers in general.
I don't know a lot of people who are satisfied with the past years development, nor the one scheduled for development for the next 18 months. If you don't believe me, check the 30+ page thread on "Exellence" in the Assembly. And you know how CCP has responded to constructive criticism from their customers? Yeah, that's right. They ignore it.
It's not just people *****ing, it's a lot of development issues that people want CCP to deal with, like stick to fixing stuff they already put in the game (FW, PI for example).
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Saelie
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Yes, because when the audience gets to apathy; they really are doing great. Right?
If you ever run a service and you start ignoring your customers you're going to be out of business sooner or later.
Actually I'm pretty sure the op means ccp ignores the forum trolls and not the customers in general.
This, more or less, though the risk is always there that CCP will start to equate the forum community with the wider playerbase and start ignoring everybody. However, there's still good indication that it hasn't reached that stage yet - All the dev/GM responses in the thread asking whether or not CCP members actually play EVE is a sign of that.
Will I be at the mass testing? Sure, on one character or another, if my Sisi client can update in time for it.
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Xirin
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:49:00 -
[15]
Congrats, OP, I think you just won Eve. I also agree 100% with you. The playerbase is impossible to please, so why bother trying? People will continue to threaten to emoragequit no matter what they do.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:50:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Saelie
the risk is always there that CCP will start to equate the forum community with the wider playerbase and start ignoring everybody.
So, assuming you're right. How are they communicating with "the wider" playerbase if they aren't using the forums?
Quote:
However, there's still good indication that it hasn't reached that stage yet - All the dev/GM responses in the thread asking whether or not CCP members actually play EVE is a sign of that.
What are you trying to say here? If you mean to imply that CCP employees play their own game, so what? They should be congratulated about that? Are we seriously at the point where people are glad that the developers play their own game? That should be a given in my opinion. But I sometimes doubt they actually do play the game; seeing how many obvious issues have been around even since I started playing in 2006.
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Akhmed TDT
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:52:00 -
[17]
I blame the Dr Spock mentality from the previous generations. Don't hit your kids when they do wrong. Let them grow into their own. Welcome to the "free-will creative flow".
Now we have a bunch of people who are never satisfied, whine constantly, don't know when to keep their mouth shut, and can't view the world beyond the "me" blinders. IMO there's too many on the internet who weren't smacked when they acted like this in public as a child. It's like seeing that kid throwing a screaming temper tantrum in the market place we've all seen.
Every emo rage when the server isn't back up at EXACTLY the very minute they so gratiously estimated for us so we could get on with our lives and come back later just makes them not want to post a time again for the rest of us. Every time they give us tiny teasers of information for what to look forward to there are those who just start kicking and screaming because it isn't what THEY wanted.
This game has been going strong for around 8 years now. I've jumped from MMO to MMO in the past and none ever held my interest for even a full year until I found Eve. I love this game. I just wish the temper tantrums didn't keep CCP from posting very often in the forum out of fear of it just starting 500 new threads and being quoted for years when one of the ambitions didn't meet deadlines. We're lucky they even read the forums and reply still. Nobody could ever be thrilled and motivated about going to read something where people just trash talk you.
HTFU. CCP has every desire to fix bugs. They're not telling us what they're fixing any more because it'll just be future cut/paste fodder flung around forums if it doesn't make the deadline. Don't keep smacking someone being nice enough to try to keep you in the loop then wonder why you don't know what's going on later.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:55:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Zeba Actually I'm pretty sure the op means ccp ignores the forum trolls and not the customers in general.
I don't know a lot of people who are satisfied with the past years development, nor the one scheduled for development for the next 18 months. If you don't believe me, check the 30+ page thread on "Exellence" in the Assembly. And you know how CCP has responded to constructive criticism from their customers? Yeah, that's right. They ignore it.
It's not just people *****ing, it's a lot of development issues that people want CCP to deal with, like stick to fixing stuff they already put in the game (FW, PI for example).
Well thats just straight up horse dung. Once again big words like lots and many getting thrown around forcing me to show up and own people. You want to see lots? I mean a majority of PLAYERS complaining about something? CCP announcing titans and moms getting interdiction nullifyers built in. CCP stating tech 2 bpos getting a double production speed buff. Those, my friend, will garner 100 page + threads with damn near the whole game checking in.
Your tired old lame complaints by a couple thousand people of something that cant trully ever be fixed is bs and mist definately not a majority of players.
Yea sure most everyone is aware of the problem but only a handful would ever boycott ccp over it. Gimmie your stuff when you do.
Buh bye. |
Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:55:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin
Originally by: Zeba Actually I'm pretty sure the op means ccp ignores the forum trolls and not the customers in general.
I don't know a lot of people who are satisfied with the past years development, nor the one scheduled for development for the next 18 months. If you don't believe me, check the 30+ page thread on "Exellence" in the Assembly. And you know how CCP has responded to constructive criticism from their customers? Yeah, that's right. They ignore it.
It's not just people *****ing, it's a lot of development issues that people want CCP to deal with, like stick to fixing stuff they already put in the game (FW, PI for example).
I play in faction war and I can say with 100% certainty that not a one of us is happy with ccp over its current lack of development. But as I have previously stated even in its heyday fw only represented a tiny fraction of the overall active daily player population so go figure about ccp's perception of its development priority. All we can do is keep making threads until they decide they want to develop it further so why rage and beat your pod against the wall in futility? We still have a great time in fw so its not like there is a game breaking issue that needs dealing with nao! its just we see soooooo much potential to make fw one of the premier selling points of the game and we realllllly want moar targets to pew pew.
Originally by: Balsak Eve-Online, the game that is so awesome people are willing to give CCP money so that they may have the privilege to bash it.
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar Blacklight Incorporated
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:55:00 -
[20]
I don't remember caring about "walking in stations" all I want to see is the broken features fixed.
Ilharess of the Scorpion King
All that I survey are prey to my hunger |
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SammyullJackson
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Posted - 2010.07.15 18:55:00 -
[21]
0/10. OP is being far too reasonable to be a troll. He's making sense. That's not allowed.
I want CCP to magically fix the internet to reduce lag, thanks.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Saelie Like the screaming baby that won't shut up no matter what you do for it, your only way to avoid frustration is to ignore it completely.
And then the baby dies and you get dragged off to prison for criminal neglect. Congratulations for proving our point. -------- All I want is a better management.
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Fikreta
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:06:00 -
[23]
Why are you saying `playerbase` when in fact you mean `forum *****es`? Only a small percentage of players visit these forums, even less bother to post. Forums do not represent playerbase but only one relatively insignificant yet disproportionately loud group of people who, oddly enough, think that they are special in some way.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:12:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jovialmadness
Well thats just straight up horse dung. Once again big words like lots and many getting thrown around forcing me to show up and own people. You want to see lots? I mean a majority of PLAYERS complaining about something? CCP announcing titans and moms getting interdiction nullifyers built in. CCP stating tech 2 bpos getting a double production speed buff. Those, my friend, will garner 100 page + threads with damn near the whole game checking in.
Your tired old lame complaints by a couple thousand people of something that cant trully ever be fixed is bs and mist definately not a majority of players.
Yea sure most everyone is aware of the problem but only a handful would ever boycott ccp over it. Gimmie your stuff when you do.
Buh bye.
I should've said 79 pages and going. Good on you for anonymous-acting e-cool on forums though. I'm sure you impressed yourself. The ironic thing is that you're a part of the problem the OP is talking about. A bunch of "internet tough guys" *****ing like old ladies about anything they don't agree with.
You don't agree with what I'm saying, fine. Counter-argue it, instead of doing the classic ad hominem-nonsense, you prick.
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Freyya
Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:13:00 -
[25]
As much as i agree with OP, as you'll rarely see me whine about anything, i still have something to add to the contrary;
CCP said, no, promissed alot of stuff with more expansions than I can count. I could go on and on with a list of parts of expansions that where worked on, shown to the public with a near finish look, reacted with great enthousiasm to and subsequently abandoned for some unaparant reason to never be heard of again. Players remember this.
Back in the day when i started (1st tried in early 2005) the forums where riddled with devs replying to posts and questions, players being very happy with what they had and getting everything and more they hoped for with expansions and nothing or little CCP promissed to include got left out or forgotten to be improved when things went wrong. This was even in a time when they where 1/5th the company they are today. Sure there were whines left and right but there was a status quo towards the things that were golden and perfect. Players remember this.
All in all we (the forum community) need to step down a notch and give credit where credit is duely due and stop whining about every damn little thing. On the other hand CCP needs to get their act back together and start doing the balancing work they once were so good at. Tuxford with the nerfbat comes to mind...for better or worse... For too long bugs that seem arbitrary to fix right have lived their own lives and just deserve to get fixed. Too long the forum community has been negative about too many things that it has become an Eve meme in itself. It's a 50/50 solution but the problem is that players PAY to play and whine about things that are not in working order and PAY to submit bugreports just to see the bug persist through out the the years without one word on their status. CCP is GETTING PAID to listen to the whining and actually do something with the bugreports. Sure ALOT of things have been massively improved on but it's those 5 year old bugs that still exist today that players remember.
Keep in mind that you'll rarely ever hear your boss actually give compliments for your work. You GET PAID to do your work like you're expected to do by your boss. You'll see him as soon as something goes wrong however. If i got paid to play Eve i would probably have even less issues with playing around the bugs than i do now and i'm guessing it's the same for alot of the whiners too.
And on that bombshell. FIX ROCKETS AND BLASTERS! (mandatory whine to offset the sensible dribble i just posted) ___________
NOW COLLECTING ISD AND CCP AUTOGRAPHS It'll be worth something someday. -Rauth
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Libin Herobi
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:23:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Libin Herobi on 15/07/2010 19:25:20 It appears you have an overly pessimistic view of the forums. Are you even capable of being satisfied with what the forum community offers you? The forum users remember this.
When there is nothing going on "forums are boring", when there is too much going on "forums are drowning in irrelevant posts", controversal posts are "only trolling", agreeing with the view of the publisher is "clearly brown-nosing", posting about things mentioned in existing threads is "showing how clueless the OP is" and not finding something on the search "demonstrates what a noob a poster is". The forum users remember this.
You expect way too much. You expect everything, you expect it quickly and you expect it perfect. You expect them to do things they do not have the time, money or personnel for. The forum users remember this.
The forum users choose to ignore a poster that comes across as a hypocrite, asking for things he is incapable of doing himself and carry on with their writing, suspecting that the fire and hatred will burn itself out as it usually does.
TL;DR version - if you think the forum users ignore you, it's because you have given them good reason to ignore you. No crying baby will be left behind and you know that's the only way to avoid the great tears.
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Kurisar
Gallente Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:25:00 -
[27]
I believe the saying is "Haters gon' hate."
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Scott McClellan
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:26:00 -
[28]
Gratitude is expressed by continuing to pay for the service. It's how service industries work.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.07.15 19:31:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Saelie TL;DR version - If you think the players are being ignored, it's because the players have given CCP good reason to ignore them. Like the screaming baby that won't shut up no matter what you do for it, your only way to avoid frustration is to ignore it completely.
Doubt it. They do have forum intelligence gathering and this post (by CCP Manifest) more or less confirms that assumption.
As to devs and execs actually reading the forums regularly, who knows. I know I would because not only it serves as an early warning system, but it also gives you the familiarity of what the players are talking about in a general sort of sense. EVE as you may note, while it may have it's fair share of idiots, has a greater number of folks who can intelligently discuss issues - as such blanket dismissing all these complaints as whines is not in the best interest for CCP.
In fact, I'd like to see them ignore 100% of what's been said by the community to acid test that these complaints are invalid.
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Jonny Miami
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.07.15 20:11:00 -
[30]
OP is sort of right. It doesn't matter what we say or do. They will do what they want, when they want and if we don't like it, we can leave.
We can also jump up and down and shake our fists, (carrier 07 and free Abathur come to mind) but when it comes down to crunch time, they will do what they want and we can leave. But that's ok because we will be replaced by fresh new subs and when those subs get tired of waiting or feel disillusioned or even feel lied to, well, they can leave too, because they will have been replaced by even more fresh new subs.
Thats the goal right? 600k subs? But when that goal is reached, how many of us will still be here? It doesn't matter really, because there will be 600k paying subs.
The ones we can talk to and the ones who listen the most are actually the devs. I'm a Fan of the devs. Color me Fanboi. But they don't set Policy. They have their hands tied too and must follow the directives of their leadership. Because for us it is a game we play. A mind blowingly awesome game that still has so much unrealized potential, well you know, but for them it feeds their family and pays their mortgage.
And the devs are working hard. Pirate arcs were just fixed and it was pointed out to me earlier that engine colors have been corrected, text has been fixed and if you own an Impoc or tourney ship, you can see where the turrets go now, amongst other things.
I could get into what I personally think about the hype, the broken, the bugged, the CSM, the expansions that were supposed to be iterated, dust, incarna, Ankhmas, the unbalanced, the completely abandoned, the business model, the greed and god knows what else I might have an opinion on.
But really, who cares.
tl;dr - op is sort of right but yeah, whatever... Point is, this post is pointless. |
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