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Neliel Soifon
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Posted - 2010.07.18 16:33:00 -
[1]
First of all: this is not a whine, i'd like to start a constructive conversation to understand how/if this ship can be fixed.
Black ops are based on a hit&run tactic, but we all know the limits of a drone ship; changing the Sin model with the Megathron one would be a dream, but we all know that is not possible, due to the fact that Black Ops ships are based on the Tier 1 Battleships hulls.
So, what do you think could be done? If we come up with something useful, maybe CCP will listen, don't you think?
Well, as far as i can tell, changing its role bonus to a more useful one could help a bit (i'm not that sure that changig the slots somehow could help, but if you have something in mind,just write please) but... wich one? 5% agility is nice, but not that great, problem here is about drones: we don't have the time to recall them, scoop them and warp away, just think about the tactic: you jump, you get in position, you align, uncloak and keep moving aligned; this makes sentry useless, and any other drone very limited, becouse of the travel time and everything.
1) Completely change Sin's design: remove his dependancy on drones and give it a rail/blaster bonus, or even something else like dump strenght or something.
2) Give it the unique ability to warp drones with it, like camera drones do.
3) Give it the unique ability do "teleport" drones, wow this may sound crazy and lame, but think about it: you can do it once in a while and not at your pleasure, give them a charge or something, so you can quickly deploy them and, let's say after 5 minutes the charge will be full and you can scoop them again, or give the a super fast mwd, something like a huge burst that shoot 'em on the target, or back to the ship.
Well, i know that none of my ideas will get in the game, but i'm just trying to think out of the box, and i hope one of you reading will do the same and come out with a good idea worth CCP consideration to fix this ship.
Thank you. 3) So what about one of the following?
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 16:51:00 -
[2]
Meh. If you want to do hit and run, make a cloaky T3. Black ops are for jump bridging. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Neliel Soifon
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Posted - 2010.07.18 16:56:00 -
[3]
oh really? Than explain me the ecm bonus on the widow for example.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 17:03:00 -
[4]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 18/07/2010 17:04:25
Originally by: Neliel Soifon oh really? Than explain me the ecm bonus on the widow for example.
Gosh, hm. That's a tough one. Let's see... It's a Caldari ship, based on a T1 ECM boat.
Yeah, I have no idea where it came from.
The Sin's bonus is similarly perplexing, what with it being a Gallente ship, based on a T1 drone boat.
The ECM bonus does make the Widow a little bit better than the rest of the bunch. However, that makes the Widow the (comparatively good) exception to the rule, where as your meandering ramblings above assume that the Sin is the (comparatively bad) exception to the rule.
The true function of blackops is the covert jump bridge. That's what you're paying for when you buy one. If you just want something sneaky for hit and runs, there are cheaper and better options. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Nina Treml
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Posted - 2010.07.18 17:10:00 -
[5]
No man, you are failing, i'm talking about its ROLE bonus. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.18 17:20:00 -
[6]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey The true function of blackops is the covert jump bridge. That's what you're paying for when you buy one. If you just want something sneaky for hit and runs, there are cheaper and better options.
No, the purpose of the black ops is jump drive ganking. Unlike every other sneaky ship, the black ops does not appear in local. You hold your combat ships in a different system, and only enter local with a single cyno alt, preventing your target from realizing what is about to happen until it's too late. Good luck doing that with a recon or T3.
As for the Sin, the way to fix it is simple: swap the worthless cloaked velocity bonus for something useful and give it a covert ops cloak instead, the same solution that is required to fix all of the other black ops. -----------
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 17:32:00 -
[7]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 18/07/2010 17:34:54
Originally by: Nina Treml No man, you are failing, i'm talking about its ROLE bonus. You clearly don't know what you are talking about.
The ECM bonus on the widow is not a role bonus. Black ops do not even HAVE a role bonus. It is one of the bonuses from the blackops skill and, go figure, it shares it with its T1 hull.
Quote: No, the purpose of the black ops is jump drive ganking. Unlike every other sneaky ship, the black ops does not appear in local.
Black ops ships appear in local, just like everything else. It's the covert cyno field that is, y'know... covert. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.18 17:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Black ops ships appear in local, just like everything else. It's the covert cyno field that is, y'know... covert. If black ops didn't appear in local, people would actually fly them.
Black ops do not appear in local because they are not in the same system as the target until the target is tackled and it's too late to escape. You have a jump drive for a reason, use it. -----------
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 17:46:00 -
[9]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 18/07/2010 17:48:38
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey Black ops ships appear in local, just like everything else. It's the covert cyno field that is, y'know... covert. If black ops didn't appear in local, people would actually fly them.
Black ops do not appear in local because they are not in the same system as the target until the target is tackled and it's too late to escape. You have a jump drive for a reason, use it.
Know how I know you don't fly a black ops?
Seriously, what you're describing is idiotic. You would be better off using a T1 battleship and just have it sit one jump away from the tackler. You don't need a jump drive for that.
There is only one thing that black ops do that can't be done better and cheaper with another ship: Jump bridging covert gangs. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Sabriel Lafayette
Maleficarum Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.18 17:57:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Sabriel Lafayette on 18/07/2010 17:57:08
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Know how I know you don't fly a black ops?
Seriously, what you're describing is idiotic. You would be better off using a T1 battleship and just have it sit one jump away from the tackler. You don't need a jump drive for that.
There is only one thing that black ops do that can't be done better and cheaper with another ship: Jump bridging covert gangs.
Oh dear, there really is no hope for this one.
Monsieur Surrender, learn a thing or two about how the Black-Ops battleships are used by the people that do so most often and show some expertise in doing so, and then come back and reconsider what Merin is saying. I assure you that the corps making the best use of this ship type often don't even bother training for the jump bridge...
Tl;dr: You are very, very wrong.
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el Sabor
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Posted - 2010.07.18 18:05:00 -
[11]
Someone once said the agility bonus was so it could scoop sentries and GTFO.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 18:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Sabriel Lafayette Edited by: Sabriel Lafayette on 18/07/2010 17:57:08
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Know how I know you don't fly a black ops?
Seriously, what you're describing is idiotic. You would be better off using a T1 battleship and just have it sit one jump away from the tackler. You don't need a jump drive for that.
There is only one thing that black ops do that can't be done better and cheaper with another ship: Jump bridging covert gangs.
Oh dear, there really is no hope for this one.
Monsieur Surrender, learn a thing or two about how the Black-Ops battleships are used by the people that do so most often and show some expertise in doing so, and then come back and reconsider what Merin is saying. I assure you that the corps making the best use of this ship type often don't even bother training for the jump bridge...
Tl;dr: You are very, very wrong.
Nobody with more sense than ISK is pre-tackling targets just to hotdrop an underpowered, overpriced battleship on them. You are mistaking "effective" for "flashy". There just isn't any tactical advantage to doing it that way. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
MukkBarovian
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Posted - 2010.07.18 18:12:00 -
[13]
Confirming Black Ops are mobile gates for cloaky gangs with a battlecruiser attatched and they called the monstrousity a battleship.
If you have more balls than brains you can jump your mobile gate into the middle of the fight/gank after the cloakies are in but thats purely optional in terms of functionality.
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Footoo Rama
Gallente Cast-a-Ways.
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Posted - 2010.07.18 20:09:00 -
[14]
Dear surrender...
You have never gone after a low sec mining operation before... A single nuet in system is not a huge deal. The speed that a cyno then a Black Ops then a covert gang can enter system point multiple targets can be devastating to rear echelon mining ops in 0.0. No warning then a large SB/recon gang with arazu/falcon support really can ruin an alliances day. Then it can gtfo or roam the local systems. ------- "Because the Dominix is the Chuck Norris of Eve!" |
SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.07.18 20:26:00 -
[15]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 18/07/2010 20:30:47
Originally by: Footoo Rama Dear surrender...
You have never gone after a low sec mining operation before... A single nuet in system is not a huge deal. The speed that a cyno then a Black Ops then a covert gang can enter system point multiple targets can be devastating to rear echelon mining ops in 0.0. No warning then a large SB/recon gang with arazu/falcon support really can ruin an alliances day. Then it can gtfo or roam the local systems.
This is amazing. It's like you haven't even read the thread at all, because what you basically just said is, "Black ops are for jump bridging." --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Rajere
Vicious Inc Killboard Online
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Posted - 2010.07.18 22:59:00 -
[16]
Your first option is the simplest and most effective change, one that i've argued for for years now.
Quote: Black ops are based on a hit&run tactic, but we all know the limits of a drone ship; changing the Sin model with the Megathron one would be a dream, but we all know that is not possible, due to the fact that Black Ops ships are based on the Tier 1 Battleships hulls.
Also, it's more than possible, the Widow and the Panther already draw their bonuses from the Tier 2 battleship while maintaining the model of the Tier 1. For example:
Raven: Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise and Siege Launcher Rate Of Fire and 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Velocity per level.
Scorpion: Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range per level 20% Bonus to ECM Burst Range per level
Widow: Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cruise and siege missile launcher rate of fire and 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level
Typhoon: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire and 5% bonus to Siege and Cruise missile launcher Rate of Fire per level
Tempest: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire per level and 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage per level
Panther: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to large projectile turret damage per level
Also note that the Panther received the Tempest's weapon count and the Widow received the Ravens (BOs receive -1 turret/missile of their t1 counterpart, thus 5 turrets/missiles instead of 6). Also note the typhoon only had 4 missile/4 turrets when the Panther was introduced.
Thus, for the Sin the fix is simple:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. (From the Megathron). 6 Turrets, 7-8 highslots. Grid/cpu adjusted as necessary. Model it off of the Megathron means possibly tinkering with the number of lows/mids as well.
If you'd like you can make the Black Ops skill bonus for the Sin similar to the Widow. ie, the Widow received the scorps ECM bonus as a Black Ops skill bonus (for flavor really, it's mostly useless), so you could drop the agility bonus for some sort of drone bonus, again for flavor. -------------------------- F5F5F5F5F5F5F5 |
Asperath Fernandez
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Posted - 2010.07.19 01:44:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Asperath Fernandez on 19/07/2010 01:48:24
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
The notion here is, "OH HEY, A SINGLE SHIP! THAT'S NOT SCARY AT ALL!"
If we accept that as true (despite the fact that most people should know better), that single ship may as well be a T3 or force recon, both of which can use covert cloaks. There's no more indication as to what's "about to happen" that way than there is with a cyno alt.
I assure you, that's true. Especially if you go AFK for an hour or two. After all, it's only one neutral, and he's probably not even paying attn. I've seen my own corpies produce HILLARIOUS killmails exactly this way, a few too many times over the years.
I usually make it a point to remote into my cloaker from work, and talk in local a little at that time, so they think I'm active when I'm not.
Warping in from the next system isnt' the same. Not only will someone notice ("40 man neutral gang next door!" in the intel channel.... Yeah, how about I go ratting now...), but you actually have to warp in to the target, which, counting aligning and warp time is not preferable to landing RIGHT ON TOP of the target 3 seconds after it's tackled.
ANYHOW, on the topic of the sin, I'd like to move a mid to a highslot / turret, and the agility bonus / drone bonus replaced with a 5%/lv damage bonus + 7.5%/lv tracking bonus. Hell, I wouldn't even mind the dronebay getting chopped to 125m3 if I could have this...
Oh, and, about 1500 more m3 in the fuelbay :)
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Rastigan
Caldari Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.07.19 03:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
This is amazing. It's like you haven't even read the thread at all, because what you basically just said is, "Black ops are for jump bridging."
Its all good man, No one would ever counter hotdrop an entire gang of Black op Bs's cynoing to a target with carriers or a titan bridge.. They should just keep on using several billion isk worth of ships to do the same thing a few SB's and recons can do.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.07.19 06:05:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rastigan
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
This is amazing. It's like you haven't even read the thread at all, because what you basically just said is, "Black ops are for jump bridging."
Its all good man, No one would ever counter hotdrop an entire gang of Black op Bs's cynoing to a target with carriers or a titan bridge.. They should just keep on using several billion isk worth of ships to do the same thing a few SB's and recons can do.
Which is really awesome if you have the people to bring enough recons/SBs that the extra dps of the black ops doesn't make a difference. Perhaps you could remember that EVE has more than just large alliances, and see if you could understand what this could possibly mean for black ops? -----------
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Neliel Soifon
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Posted - 2010.07.19 09:11:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Rajere Your first option is the simplest and most effective change, one that i've argued for for years now.
Quote: Black ops are based on a hit&run tactic, but we all know the limits of a drone ship; changing the Sin model with the Megathron one would be a dream, but we all know that is not possible, due to the fact that Black Ops ships are based on the Tier 1 Battleships hulls.
Also, it's more than possible, the Widow and the Panther already draw their bonuses from the Tier 2 battleship while maintaining the model of the Tier 1. For example:
Raven: Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise and Siege Launcher Rate Of Fire and 10% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Velocity per level.
Scorpion: Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer strength per level 20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal and falloff range per level 20% Bonus to ECM Burst Range per level
Widow: Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to cruise and siege missile launcher rate of fire and 10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity per level
Typhoon: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire and 5% bonus to Siege and Cruise missile launcher Rate of Fire per level
Tempest: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret Rate of Fire per level and 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage per level
Panther: Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire and 5% bonus to large projectile turret damage per level
Also note that the Panther received the Tempest's weapon count and the Widow received the Ravens (BOs receive -1 turret/missile of their t1 counterpart, thus 5 turrets/missiles instead of 6). Also note the typhoon only had 4 missile/4 turrets when the Panther was introduced.
Thus, for the Sin the fix is simple:
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. (From the Megathron). 6 Turrets, 7-8 highslots. Grid/cpu adjusted as necessary. Model it off of the Megathron means possibly tinkering with the number of lows/mids as well.
If you'd like you can make the Black Ops skill bonus for the Sin similar to the Widow. ie, the Widow received the scorps ECM bonus as a Black Ops skill bonus (for flavor really, it's mostly useless), so you could drop the agility bonus for some sort of drone bonus, again for flavor.
This is very interesting, i didn't notice that. Thank you for your post sir, this could be a very practical solution.
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TimMc
Brutal Deliverance Art of Defiance
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Posted - 2010.07.19 13:57:00 -
[21]
Perhaps a drone speed bonus? for releasing and scooping quickly.
However drones aren't something I like using on cloaking ships anyway. Would be better if it dropped down bandwidth and bonus in favour of more guns.
Hit and run - not hit, scoop and run.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:47:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 19/07/2010 18:47:19
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Neliel Soifon oh really? Than explain me the ecm bonus on the widow for example.
Gosh, hm. That's a tough one. Let's see... It's a Caldari ship, based on a T1 ECM boat.
Yeah, I have no idea where it came from.
The Window gets no ECM bonus from the T1 BS skill. The ECM bonus comes from the Black Ops skill. The T1 skill gives DPS bonus to missiles, which the T1 hull does not give at all.
There is plenty of precedent for abandoning the T1 role and bonuses for the T2 model. There's nothing hard-and-fast that says Sin must be a drone ship with drone bonus.
-- Sent from my douchePhone using Look@MEEEEE!
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Sala Kyss
Gallente Ceptacemia Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:48:00 -
[23]
How to fix the sin? Change the hull to a mega or hyperion, problem solved
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:58:00 -
[24]
Just abandon the drones???
JOIN US
My ****ty Stats
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Ninetails o'Cat
League of Super Evil
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Posted - 2010.07.19 18:59:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sala Kyss How to fix the sin? Change the hull to a mega or hyperion, problem solved
Make it a Hyperion, in the Roden shipyard colours.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:42:00 -
[26]
The entire black ops line needs a reworking. The widow is passable (still kinda crap, just not total crap) but the rest are garbage. What they really need is unnerfed HP compared to their t1 hulls, a nice t2 resist (recon level), some extra grid/cpu and a rethinking of some of the BO skill bonuses. The sin's agility bonus has got to go for example. The redeemer's tracking bonus is useful but that's more of a gallente bonus than amarr, should be an energy neut bonus or another energy turret bonus. This is in addition to the most common complaint, the fail jump range and impossible fuel usage of the covert jump portal. The cloaked velocity bonus is also a bit silly. Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Sonreir
Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.07.19 19:49:00 -
[27]
Now I remember why I don't frequent the forums as often I used to... You get one voice of reason (SurrenderMonkey) being drowned out by about 10,000 morons who don't know wtf they're talking about...
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Sabriel Lafayette
Maleficarum Corp
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:17:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Sabriel Lafayette on 19/07/2010 20:17:41 Edited by: Sabriel Lafayette on 19/07/2010 20:17:02
Originally by: Sonreir Now I remember why I don't frequent the forums as often I used to... You get one voice of reason (SurrenderMonkey) being drowned out by about 10,000 morons who don't know wtf they're talking about...
With respect to your opinion, I have to disagree entirely.
SurrenderMonkey forcibly makes the point that this hull's sole useful role is as a jump portal generator, and that using it for any other purpose is inefficient - that it serves no further useful purpose. Yet look at what corporations like Burn Eden, or several other organisations are able to achieve with them. Note that you'll rarely see a jump portal in sight. From memory, Rajere, someone who has provably used this ship class on many occasions successfully, has made this same point on this and other forums many times also, though unfortunately seems rarely listened to.
On the whole I think the main issue with the Black Op's range across the board is more one of people expecting an overpowered, invisible, indestructible battleship of death, with several of the mobility advantages of a capital. They are then disappointed when presented with the reality, and don't take the time to really look into where its value lies.
They do have a role in their current state, and an effective and efficient one. Its just one that requires some thought, planning and the kind of support that most corps don't or aren't willing to invest in.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:26:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Which is really awesome if you have the people to bring enough recons/SBs that the extra dps of the black ops doesn't make a difference. Perhaps you could remember that EVE has more than just large alliances, and see if you could understand what this could possibly mean for black ops?
Perhaps you could remember that the cycle time on the Covert Portal is 20 seconds during which the Black Ops cannot use its jump drive.
"Hai gaiz, don't kill the target yet, my portal isn't done. OK, jumping, now wait for me to load grid. OK, locking target ... wait for it, wait for it... damn who shot that gai?. Hay, how come all these enemy ships are here all of a sudden?"
-- Sent from my douchePhone using Look@MEEEEE!
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Flying ZombieJesus
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Posted - 2010.07.19 20:32:00 -
[30]
Make it a hype or mega.
Also the black ops hulls should be black. Like proper space camo. Maybe glittering white dots or something.
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