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Henri Rearden
Gallente XII Legion Southern Connection
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Posted - 2010.07.20 21:13:00 -
[1]
I just wanted you all to know that not all of your subscribers are... quite so spoiled. There are many of us (although we don't tend to be the vocal segment) who enjoy EVE the way it is and are looking forward to seeing what additional depth you guys can bring to it. We understand that EVE has never and will never reach a "finished" stage, and accept that there may be bumps or oddities along the way that could be bugs, could be parts of features that will be finished in the future, or might just be quirks similar to those that exist in the real world. Please don't be discouraged by the rampant negative tone that permeates the forums, and try to understand that, as unconstructive as the ranting and trolling is, it is an expression of possession, endearment, and other warm-fuzzy feelings for the game you have created. If we didn't care, we wouldn't rant. Just remember that somewhere behind the madness there are happy players who only hope that you draw strength and inspiration from the feedback you get as opposed to despair.
We understand that CCP feels that stepping out on the limb that is DUST is an important way forward from a gameplay and a business standpoint - and we accept that.
We understand that Incarna will add additional depth and complexities to the game that we haven't imagined yet, not to mention a bigger player-base - and we accept that.
We understand that it takes time to debug, optimize, and test server code in order to fix the fleet-lag-monster - and we accept that.
We understand that it is a mistake to judge recent features like PI in the same way that we look at "finished" features, since they're not finished and will be expanded on in the next few patches - and we accept that.
We understand that it is impractical to give the CSM direct control over development resources, particularly when everything the CSM asks for is so freaking huge - and we accept that.
We understand that... aww, hell, this is too pleasant and logical... can you fix rockets?
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.07.20 21:22:00 -
[2]
Exactly how I felt 6 months ago.
Now... *shrugs* Guess I just got tired of their empty promises and complete ignorance of player concerns.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.20 21:22:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/07/2010 21:25:17
Originally by: Henri Rearden Dust/Incarna
I don't care if they hire teams to work on Dust/Incarna. Dust in particular seems really risky, but Incarna seems like a fairly safe bet.
Quote: We understand that it is a mistake to judge recent features like PI in the same way that we look at "finished" features, since they're not finished and will be expanded on in the next few patches - and we accept that.
If CCP is dedicated to Excellence, then an unfinished feature should never have been released in the first place. PI in its current implementation is damn near criminal.
Quote: We understand that it is impractical to give the CSM direct control over development resources, particularly when everything the CSM asks for is so freaking huge - and we accept that.
It is not only impractical, it is unwise.
Quote: can you fix rockets?
Rockets are as they are by design. This means they're on the backlog - which is behind Dust/Incarna. Please wait at least 18 months.
-Liang
Ed: While I don't care if they work on other projects... I do care if there's insufficient developer resources dedicated to Eve or if those resources are delivering insufficient results. -- @LiangNuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Henri Rearden
Gallente XII Legion Southern Connection
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Posted - 2010.07.20 21:49:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Henri Rearden on 20/07/2010 21:50:05
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 20/07/2010 21:25:17
Originally by: Henri Rearden Dust/Incarna
I don't care if they hire teams to work on Dust/Incarna. Dust in particular seems really risky, but Incarna seems like a fairly safe bet.
Quote: We understand that it is a mistake to judge recent features like PI in the same way that we look at "finished" features, since they're not finished and will be expanded on in the next few patches - and we accept that.
If CCP is dedicated to Excellence, then an unfinished feature should never have been released in the first place. PI in its current implementation is damn near criminal.
Quote: We understand that it is impractical to give the CSM direct control over development resources, particularly when everything the CSM asks for is so freaking huge - and we accept that.
It is not only impractical, it is unwise.
Quote: can you fix rockets?
Rockets are as they are by design. This means they're on the backlog - which is behind Dust/Incarna. Please wait at least 18 months.
-Liang
Ed: While I don't care if they work on other projects... I do care if there's insufficient developer resources dedicated to Eve or if those resources are delivering insufficient results.
Regarding DUST and Incarna, I agree that DUST seems more risky than Incarna. They must've weighed the odds and judged that the risk is worth the potential reward.
Regarding PI and Excellence, I'm not sure I agree. Particularly when PI is a mechanic which is/will be integral to much of EVE and DUST, I don't think releasing it in stages is necessarily a bad idea nor a symptom that they've strayed from excellence. Yes, the interface does seem to be universally accepted as clunky, but it is only the first version of a system which will have to deal with things that are more complex than they are now. We seem to be looking at only a piece of the overall plan at present.
Regarding CSM, yes, unwise is a better word for it.
Regarding rockets... well, I assume you read the thread detailing their internal processes. I don't particuarly care for some of the implications that come with it, but I don't have any experience or knowledge on which to base much more of an opinion than that. At any rate, I understand why they're sticking to their processes at the moment even if they're not exactly perfect. I mean, what management procedures are? Rockets aren't game-breaking, so I'll still be playing even if they aren't changed 18 months from now. I would just like all of the frigates to be viable choices.
At the moment, the only thing I understand people getting all worked up over is the fleet lag, since that directly impacts much of 0.0 dynamics. But they're working on it. It just takes time.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.20 22:04:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Henri Rearden
Regarding PI and Excellence, I'm not sure I agree. Particularly when PI is a mechanic which is/will be integral to much of EVE and DUST, I don't think releasing it in stages is necessarily a bad idea nor a symptom that they've strayed from excellence. Yes, the interface does seem to be universally accepted as clunky, but it is only the first version of a system which will have to deal with things that are more complex than they are now. We seem to be looking at only a piece of the overall plan at present.
I underlined the important parts. At present, its the first version of an extremely clunky system that wasn't presently required. They could have done many things to fix the interface to not suck horribly and cause RSI. Holy. ****. Man.
Indefensible.
CCP's commitment to Excellence is most clearly seen there. :-/
Quote: Regarding rockets... well, I assume you read the thread detailing their internal processes.
Hell - I evoked that part of the thread. I got flamed for it too since I gave CCP somewhere to "hide" - as though they needed somewhere to hide when they can simply not log onto the forum and read the damn thread.
Quote: Rockets aren't game-breaking, so I'll still be playing even if they aren't changed 18 months from now.
Rockets are but one example - a poster child if you will - of things left to rot.
-Liang -- @LiangNuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Ti'anla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.20 22:07:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Ti''anla on 20/07/2010 22:06:50 Count my support to the spirit of the first post ^^
'Have felt this way from the start and still do now.. half the time I'm just happy to be involved in an endeavour with so much potential, and the rest I just enjoy EVE as is and as new features come.
That said though I'm really looking forward to Incarna. DUST, too.. but particularly Incarna. It'll really cement EVE's position as a great roleplay platform, for one..
Anyway yeah, role on DUST, Incarna, and the fixes will eventually come after they're in (and no, I won't freak and turn troll if the large-scale fixes don't come after that, either).
Eve's sheer potential as a concept is my reason for playing, when that's gone, then I'll consider complaining.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.20 22:28:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ti'anla That said though I'm really looking forward to Incarna.
I encourage you to read: http://cailais.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/a-future-incarnation/
Also, if Incarna is anything like what an MMO Mass Effect (as it should have been done, instead of those crap ass limited environments) count me in.
-Liang -- @LiangNuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2010.07.20 22:30:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Frug on 20/07/2010 22:31:30
Originally by: Liang Nuren PI in its current implementation is damn near criminal.
It doesn't help to exaggerate your problems like this because it sounds whiny and immature. PI is new and acceptable in its current release. Freaking out over a few bugs in a completely new system is hurrrr. The problem is how long it will take them to fix any bugs with it, and how long it takes them to actually fix or address issues in general.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Ti'anla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.20 22:34:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ti''anla on 20/07/2010 22:34:36
Originally by: Liang Nuren I encourage you to read: http://cailais.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/a-future-incarnation/
Also, if Incarna is anything like what an MMO Mass Effect (as it should have been done, instead of those crap ass limited environments) count me in.
-Liang
Thanks! Looks like an interesting read, I'll set about it..
That and seems to align with my hopes for Incarna's course and all >.>
That said, on the Mass Effect part.. well, un, that Would be amazing, but I won't hold my breath for it. Not until Incarna's Very well matured. That's up there with my hoping EVE and Incarna'll integrate seamlessly someday.
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Ran Khanon
Amarr Swords Horses and Heavy Metal
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Posted - 2010.07.20 22:41:00 -
[10]
Feel the same. Crazy to realize that a game which is around 7 years old still has so much potential and will most probably go strong for another 7 years at least. (I've played my fair share of other mmorpgs and I can truthfully say that).
But to make that happen EVE has to cross new boundaries and that means considerable development investments. We happen to be on the brink of those at this time, a fact which should negate a whole lot of the current complaints about lack of involvement. CCP is damn busy working on our future gaming pleasure behind the scenes.
You are also right in saying that rants stem from people loving and wanting to love this game though. And no developer would want a community consisting of a bunch of sheep which take everything as it is coming to them without complaints, concerns and feedback. I agree with everything Barakkus posts. |
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.20 23:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Frug It doesn't help to exaggerate your problems
Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - -- @LiangNuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire |
Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.20 23:13:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click...x100
GF
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Darin Raltin
Amarr Two Brothers Mining Corp. R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.21 01:45:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Darin Raltin on 21/07/2010 01:48:28 Edited by: Darin Raltin on 21/07/2010 01:47:31 Edited by: Darin Raltin on 21/07/2010 01:47:07 Edited by: Darin Raltin on 21/07/2010 01:46:12
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click - Click -
492 clicks is 123 extractors. On my 5 planets I have 35. My buddy has 47 on 5 planets. Run it three times, we make 36 p4's a day. 984 clicks for 3 cycles.
So I suppose Liang is exaggerating, right?
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Ascendic
Brotherhood of Suicidal Priests R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.07.21 02:27:00 -
[14]
Next time you feel like posting your worthlessly skewed opinion please do everyone a favour and hit yourself over the head repeatedly with a shovel.
Thanks.
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2010.07.21 04:00:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Frug PI is new and acceptable in its current release. Freaking out over a few bugs in a completely new system is hurrrr.
I don't think anyone really minds a few bugs in a new release. But a system specifically designed to be annoying (please explain how PI is NOT designed to be annoying? Try not to use the word "macro".) is something different. PI is designed to be a clickfest. No amount of bugfixes can ever correct that because it's not seen as a bug. |
Hesperius
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.07.21 05:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Darin Raltin 492 clicks is 123 extractors.
That you even know that is funny.
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RaTTuS
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.07.21 06:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Darin Raltin
So I suppose Liang is exaggerating, right?
use double clicks --
Titans4U Shares |
Kireiina
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Posted - 2010.07.21 06:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Henri Rearden
We understand that Incarna will add additional depth and complexities to the game that we haven't imagined yet, not to mention a bigger player-base - and we accept that.
What depth? In most MMO games an avatar is important for exactly two things. Showing off your epic gear and knowing your position in space during game-play. In Eve neither of these things is valid because your avatar is purely decorative.
*If* they have some game-play to add value to having an avatar they really should show it (and mini-games barely count, while walking across a room to access a UI that used to be available at the click of a button is a massive negative).
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Ti'anla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.21 08:00:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Ti''anla on 21/07/2010 08:05:17
Originally by: Kireiina What depth? In most MMO games an avatar is important for exactly two things. Showing off your epic gear and knowing your position in space during game-play. In Eve neither of these things is valid because your avatar is purely decorative.
*If* they have some game-play to add value to having an avatar they really should show it (and mini-games barely count, while walking across a room to access a UI that used to be available at the click of a button is a massive negative).
So not only do you have almost no idea what a character is, but you also haven't bothered reading about Incarna and what it will, and will not do before running in here ranting. I'm sure your opinion's deeply valid, especially given you can't seem to grasp that your avatar's going to be doing more than sitting idly in your profile window.
Well, just to alay your petty fears, there've been repeated statements that if you don't want to use Incarna, and want stick to the old in-station UI instead, that'll still be just as it was and you'll never have to get out of your ship. Not to mention statements Incarna probably won't ever have anything to do with ship-fitting and the like anyway.
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Kireiina
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Posted - 2010.07.21 08:37:00 -
[20]
Heh, you act like having an avatar in an MMO is some new experience... maybe if all you've ever played is Eve.
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Frieg Vostroyan
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Posted - 2010.07.21 13:41:00 -
[21]
1. Dust could be great, or might suck. time will tell, but it is a cool concept and CCP has balls for trying it.
2. I like many others feel a little disconnected from my character in eve due to the fact that I'm not really a person, I'm a spaceship. I like what Incarna offers. More of a connection to eve and more player interaction. I needs to have features to make it useful though, but not mandatory. Mini games involving strategy, winning and loosing isk and real risk as well(playing games to the death); I'd love to beat someone in station and listen to them ***** cuz they lost SP. Having pirate faction agents spawn in bars in high sec stations would be cool. However, if I see one person dancing naked, I think I will cancel my subs. Also, I'll take it as a good sign is incarna comes out, it might mean they will actually do the things they said they'd do.
3. Lag is a huge problem. Eve needs war and lag kills war. I trust they realize this and are working on it.
4. PI is boring, but what did you expect. They introduced a new feature that everyone could do. The reason for this simple clickfest is so everyone(including nubs) would do it and populate the planets so that when it comes time to fight over them they are not all in the hands a few people. PI isn't broken, its just a beta. The real problem isn't how they built it, but how they marketed it. It may be what they planned it to be, but its not what they said it'd be.
5. CSM fighting for us is good, and I like that they seem to be giving CCP a hard time, thats what they should be doing. I hope CCP throws a few devs at some of these issues to shut the CSM up, hence giving us some nice fixes.
6. Yes, fix rockets and other things. Doesn't need to be today, but give us a timeline that you can stick to. If they say a mini-patch with some fixes in 2 months then deliver it in 2 months. Get some cred back when it comes to doing what you say.
I love eve, as many do. I like what the future holds providing CCP doesn't screw the pooch. I'm happy with the game now.. but I'm building up isk living in WH ATM. I plan to head to null sec afterwards so fix lag by then and I'll be happy.
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Ti'anla
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.07.21 14:20:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Ti''anla on 21/07/2010 14:23:42 One other note:
I'd really rather they got Incarna and DUST, and the Planetary Interaction filling out, done first, for the simple fact I'd really rather they not do a large scale fix, get everything straight.. only for the mass of new content inevitably break everything again.
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