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Antoinette Civari	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:17:00 - [751] /methinks npc hunting will be even more boring as it is now after the npc hp increase because you would need .. well, double time to kill them ? I just cant stand it to shoot them for more than like 30min .. well, half income now ;X
Arud	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:17:00 - [752] Originally by: JoCool Originally by: TomB Amarr: +10%Shield +90%Armor +75%Structure Ammatar: +30%Shield +70%Armor +65%Structure Khanid: +50%Shield +60%Armor +50%Structure Blood Raiders: +30%Shield +70%Armor +75%Structure Sanshas Nation: +85%Armor +85%Structure TomB that's exactly what I want to prevent by writing about it about in my previous posts. Khanid ships get WAY less improvements by this because only the bonus you tank counts while the shields are unimportant. You cannot tank them anyway. Khanid are armor tankers right now anyway, so if you're gonna keep the bad resistance distribution at its current stat, give them 80% armor and 10% shields. The 80% armor because their armor values are already low in comparision. I agree, khanid ships are more shield based but they are not used that way, mostly because of the slot layout, to shield tank you need more med slots. Giving khanid ships 40% shields and 70% armor would seem a bit more reasonable.
Arud	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:19:00 - [753] Originally by: Antoinette Civari /methinks npc hunting will be even more boring as it is now after the npc hp increase because you would need .. well, double time to kill them ? I just cant stand it to shoot them for more than like 30min .. well, half income now ;X if you had read the devblog, or posts by others who did not read the devblog either you would have seen this in the first pharagraph Quote: ship hitpoints increased reported by TomB \| 2004.12.20 16:54:03 All ships have been increased in base hitpoint values for testing purposes of increased survivability and can be tested on Singularity. This does only affect player ships, NPC's would not get this change.
Arud	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:20:00 - [754] Originally by: Kuolematon What on earth. Last time I read, it was 100% armor to amarr?! Are you taking my sweet boost away now . And I tought NPC's won't get these boosts but seems like I was wrong. Did TomB change these or what? faction ships
dosperado	Posted - 2005.01.04 12:48:00 - [755] Every bloody N00b in a BS is then able to do LVL4 Kill-Missions solo... Come on...any other stupid ideas to make the game even more boring for veteran players?? ____________________ CEO Denial of Service NPC Mass Murderer \| Security Status 6.4
Antoinette Civari	Posted - 2005.01.04 13:28:00 - [756] Originally by: Arud if you had read the devblog, or posts by others who did not read the devblog either you would have seen this in the first pharagraph Well, I¦ve read the devblog .. really. But then i got confused by the faction ship stats ;)
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.01.04 17:47:00 - [757] Originally by: Joshua Calvert Maya, Perhaps we should ask TomB to look at cap recharge/cap size on all ships? Maybe. But then we find outselves adjusting EVERYTHING. I still say leave it alone. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Selim	Posted - 2005.01.04 18:32:00 - [758] Please don't do the changes. It'll mess up everything even further.
Grim Vandal	Posted - 2005.01.04 18:36:00 - [759] and I still say adjust tanking and therefor the hps... Greetings Grim
Meridius	Posted - 2005.01.05 04:47:00 - [760] NPCs play a big role in this game. If these increases come for players only it will be far to easy to make isk via agent missions. If you increase the npcs hp it will make the game more boring. So what is the plan, make the npcs hit a lot harder? Something has to be done... ________________________________________________________
Henka	Posted - 2005.01.05 07:45:00 - [761] OMG!! dont change hp.. i just realised that the game will end upp in the same problems encountered in AO. NPC has 100 hp, me 20000 and they do X times more dmg then me.. omg.
Faramir	Posted - 2005.01.05 12:02:00 - [762] Won't the change to HP's dictate tanking to ships? CCP always wanted us to use any ship we want, any module we want, but with the added HP's, tanking seems to be the way to go, since it now has a lot more influence on survivability. Or am I being delusional?? Too bad no Dev-reply in like 15 pages to see what they think about what we think that they should think if we think we are right?
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2005.01.05 12:32:00 - [763] Originally by: Faramir Won't the change to HP's dictate tanking to ships? CCP always wanted us to use any ship we want, any module we want, but with the added HP's, tanking seems to be the way to go, since it now has a lot more influence on survivability. Or am I being delusional?? Too bad no Dev-reply in like 15 pages to see what they think about what we think that they should think if we think we are right? Tomb seems to be ill atm. And Hammerhead is busy with other stuff. Btw, if people would bother to read Tomb's UPDATED post on the first page, they'd know that it's been taken out again. The shield booster upgrades might refer to a plan from ccp to change the bonus of the Shield Operation skill to 5% shield boost bonus.
Mordessa	Posted - 2005.01.05 12:45:00 - [764] Originally by: TomB =============================================== Amarrian ships would be getting primary armor bonus, Khanid might get mixed. Amarr: +10%Shield +90%Armor +75%Structure Ammatar: +30%Shield +70%Armor +65%Structure Khanid: +50%Shield +60%Armor +50%Structure Blood Raiders: +30%Shield +70%Armor +75%Structure Sanshas Nation: +85%Armor +85%Structure Caldari shield, we will try and have a look at shield recharge in the way. Caldari: +80%Shield +10%Armor +50%Structure Mordus Legion: +70%Shield +30%Armor +60%Structure Guristas: +85%Shield +40%Structure Gallente mostly armor as well as Amarr but some might get blend, but all still alot of structure, even if it's useless, why i don't know Gallente (Low Slotted): +20%Shield +75%Armor +125%Structure Gallente (Blend): +50%Shield +60%Armor +100%Structure Serpentis: +15%Shield +80%Armor +135%Structure ORE: +85%Armor +145%Structure Minmatar ships differ for armor/shield tanking usage, as would their hp increases, cyclone for example is better of with more shield, tempest can do both very well etc. Minmatar (Low Slotted): +30%Shield +70%Armor +40%Structure Minmatar (Blend): +60%Shield +50%Armor +25%Structure Angel Cartel: +60%Shield +50%Armor +35%Structure Did I miss something here? You have proposed a change in the races (Player useable) anywhere from the lowest of a total 140% increase (Caldari / Minmatar not including the ore barges) to a max of 220% increase (Gallente). Whether or not Gallente ships need this level of lovin is questionable, but WOW!!! Thats like a **** movie level of lovin. Isnt there a happy number that is a closer between the two instead of an 80% range between them?
Nafri	Posted - 2005.01.05 14:57:00 - [765] structure is not so important but im amazed why amarr get the bigges increasment on their most important attrbute, kinda sucks in my eyes cause thy tank best atm by far Wanna fly with me?
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.01.05 15:49:00 - [766] so now if I dont have a web and I scramble him when he uncloaks after jumping to gates I wont be able to kill him be4 he jumps back?....increas time you have to w8 be4 you jump again into same gates 2 plz.. B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Phyre	Posted - 2005.01.05 20:23:00 - [767] sigh, more upgrades to interceptors? Jesus. Interceptors use speed for offense and defense, duh. They don't need shields or armor, because nothing in the galaxy can hit them unless the target is very far away and moving in a straight line, or you are in an interceptor yourself, of if you managed to be lucky enough to web the little bugger. Even then, if you are in a slow ship, they might still get free from you. Add in the fact that Taranis can hit for 2-300, which a tiny bit more than an average player's battleship shot, and you have one seriously overpowered ship. It's no wonder why everyone flies interceptors, they are nigh unbeatable in most situations. They don't need upgrades, they either need to be nerfed, or other ships need to be upgraded. One frigate should NEVER be able to defeat a battleship that is set up to be... a battleship. Even if a battleship is set up for mining, a frigate should have to work his ass off, recharge his cap fully several times, and reload his guns fifty times just to chew through a battleships' defenses. On another note, the first thing I noticed about the "armor/shield/hull" upgrades is bunk. A guy already said exactly what I was gonna say, in that some ships get barely over 120%, while others get over 220% increases. HULL IS WORTHLESS. No resistances and it's not fun to sit outside a repair station for thirty minutes repairing your apoc's hull with a medium hull repairer because you thought your armor was good enough and didn't think you'd ever need a big hull rep. CCP, guys, listen. Balancing things is not hard. I've played online games since I was 18 - 7 years ago. I've made my own games, I've gamemastered for 4 years... a good balanced game is the only way to ensure it's survival. Hell, recruit me on your team for free, I'll help you guys figure out this obviously complex problem for you. Here is your first bit of advice: Give everyone the same benefit. Give Caldari 100% shields and 50% cap recharge (they could stand to use some cap recharge, Lord knows thier cap sucks a big one anyway). Give Amarr 100% armor and 50% cap recharge. Give Gallente 100% shields and 50% shield recharge (for med slotted), 100% armor and 50% cap recharge (for low slotted). Minmatar, I don't care what you do with them. Thier ships are so ugly I will never fly them. And, on the thought of the ugly minmatar ships, whoever designed those flying scrapyards' visual models needs to be hung over a fireant nest by thier toenails for a day. But I'm really warning you guys on the interceptor upgrades. If they become so powerful that nobody will dare take a battleship out into space because they are afraid some tiny frigate is gonna gank them, you've ruined the game.
Percivs	Posted - 2005.01.05 22:00:00 - [768] Originally by: Mordessa . . . Did I miss something here? You have proposed a change in the races (Player useable) anywhere from the lowest of a total 140% increase (Caldari / Minmatar not including the ore barges) to a max of 220% increase (Gallente). Whether or not Gallente ships need this level of lovin is questionable, but WOW!!! Thats like a ** movie level of lovin. Isnt there a happy number that is a closer between the two instead of an 80% range between them? If you had read the rest of the thread, you would have realized that an equal percentage increase distributed across multiple types of HP, is in fact, not equal**. Since the increase benefits those who can harden that type of hp most. If you shield tank, but you get a lot of armor hp, that's not as valuable as shield tanking and getting more shield hp. These need to be evaluated with hardening/tanking, DOT, cap factors, EW, NPCs, logout timers, drones, and a cornocopia of (that means a lot of different) other factors. (And it's going to take me a while to do a comparison, because an increase as varied as this is not so obviously flawed as the original proposal, it's going to be harder to determine if/where the flaw exists in these new numbers.) Pwned. Thank you, please drive through. --- "All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field" - A.E.
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.01.05 22:42:00 - [769] Why do we need a HP increase for ships anyways? And why are the increases so skewed? Caldari/Minmatar seem to be getting shafted badly, while Amarr ships are getting a heaping crapload more HP than the other races. Why not just a flat X% increase across the board, aren't current values pretty balanced as it is? Just wondering. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.01.06 00:19:00 - [770] "And why are the increases so skewed? Caldari/Minmatar seem to be getting shafted badly, while Amarr ships are getting a heaping crapload more HP than the other races." Caldari get less shield increase than the Amarr get of armour increase, but might be because of the: "we will try and have a look at shield recharge in the way." ... part. Depending on how the recharge is going to change, i guess. Minmatar ships do seem to get the raw end of the deal, though... not only their mix of shield/armour boost isn't up to par with other races, they got the least extra structure on top of it. Speaking of which (structure boost) the differences here are pretty crazy. Battleships get roughly: amarr: ~4k hp caldari: ~2k hp gallente: ~7.5k hp minmatar: ~1.75k hp extra. Now, lack of resistances or not, 2-4 k of hp more on some ships... didn't know the Amarr are so bad off right now they need this sort of handicap over Minmatar and Caldari. o.O Gallente are more debatable, since they like close combat and whatnot... but on the other hand it might make gallente ships rigged for long range rather nasty. Hard to tell, especially with test server as good as dead. ¼¼;
Nafri	Posted - 2005.01.06 00:30:00 - [771] well at least gallente cant tank as good as amarrs but giving amarr thise kind of boost will make the game just more imbalanced Wanna fly with me?
Nova Strikes	Posted - 2005.01.06 01:46:00 - [772] ok a few words, most of the smart people are right and the stupid people as Usual are so wrong, this system is screwy they should all be equal. Amarr and gellente 100% armor and caldari and minmatar 100% shields, not that I donÆt think you guys have got yourself into a world of hurt here with the balancing, man I keep thinking of it every which way and I come up with blanks. IÆve had a couple of ideas about how to implement these changes but IÆm not sure IÆve chewed them over enough, one thing I do know is putting up 120% this and 100% that, oh and gellente can have lots a structure, is a bit narrow minded. Think this through guys Nova very confused
veyron	Posted - 2005.01.06 01:50:00 - [773] Edited by: veyron on 06/01/2005 01:51:24 ammar are already imbalanced, giving them this boost over gallente and minmatar is crazy, there cap and guns are by far the best, could u not reduce the amount of armour you are giving them by jst a fraction?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.01.06 04:09:00 - [774] Originally by: Jim Raynor Why do we need a HP increase for ships anyways? And why are the increases so skewed? Caldari/Minmatar seem to be getting shafted badly, while Amarr ships are getting a heaping crapload more HP than the other races. Why not just a flat X% increase across the board, aren't current values pretty balanced as it is? Just wondering. I agree with Jim Raynor, you KNOW something's up But yea, small identical % increase for ships if you MUST change things. Smaller ships only, even better! "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.01.06 04:11:00 - [775] Originally by: Phyre Hell, recruit me on your team for free, I'll help you guys figure out this obviously complex problem for you. Recruiting a dedicated team of BALANCE testers on test WOULD seem to be a good idea. "As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade"
Scorpyn	Posted - 2005.01.06 05:06:00 - [776] I find it a bit odd that amarr ships get more armor than caldari ships get shields, since the armor resistance is higher. Seems like this hp increase turned out to be a lot more difficult to do than what was believed at first.
Meridius	Posted - 2005.01.06 07:40:00 - [777] Originally by: Jim Raynor Why do we need a HP increase for ships anyways? And why are the increases so skewed? Caldari/Minmatar seem to be getting shafted badly, while Amarr ships are getting a heaping crapload more HP than the other races. Why not just a flat X% increase across the board, aren't current values pretty balanced as it is? Just wondering. At first glance, these changes look as ridiculous as those insane PG changes proposed a while ago. Thank god that was canned... The one thing i do like about these changes is the contrast changes between armor/shields. When you go up against a raven, you know you will be chewing through a hell of a lot of shield before you get into it's frail armor. Vice versa for amarr ships. ________________________________________________________
Aelita	Posted - 2005.01.06 13:17:00 - [778] Structure is useless and with lack of fast structure repairers or remote structure repairers will result in annoying wait for repair.
Demon Johnson	Posted - 2005.01.06 13:56:00 - [779] AFAIK these changes are made to give players a chance when beeing ganked. So more hull means, that you have a few seconds more, before you ships blows up. So you can try to jam the one who scrambles you to get away, or have enough time to load some defenders. So imho hull is not totally useless.
Space Debris	Posted - 2005.01.06 15:46:00 - [780] Edited by: Space Debris on 06/01/2005 15:50:12 Originally by: Bad'Boy so now if I dont have a web and I scramble him when he uncloaks after jumping to gates I wont be able to kill him be4 he jumps back?....increas time you have to w8 be4 you jump again into same gates 2 plz.. Shut up dude I hate that timer they introduced as it is, its LAME. You jump in to a system just as an enemy jumps out and you cannot chase him coz of that lame timer I know what you mean though, people will just plod back to the gate before you can kill them and gate out leaving you red faced. Jims idea of a flat % increase seems logical though I like the idea or more hit points though, now when you warp into a fleet battle and your screen doesnt load for a matter of minutes, when it does load at least you will get to see your ship explode instead of just hearing on TS you are dead The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face

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