Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 .. 40 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sigras
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 11:35:00 -
[721]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sigras
Originally by: Liang Nuren They give T2 BPO owners huge individual market advantages. They dominate smaller markets.
Would you care to give an example of which markets' prices are set by BPO owners and not by inventors?
Your reading comprehension is extremely poor. I did not say that T2 BPOs set the price - I said they dominate the market.
well if they dont set the price, in what way do they dominate the market?
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sigras
Nobody disputes that owning a T2 BPO is an easy way to make isk, the argument is over whether or not its a game breakingly unfair.
I submit that it is not because of #1 the inflexibility of a T2 BPO #2 The Opportunity Cost
I submit that #1 and #2 have nothing at all to do with whether they are game breakingly unfair.
ok, since you seem to be having trouble understanding english, let me break it down for you.
Im saying that the additional risk and cost the T2 BPO owners incur justifies the additional profit potential they get. Now youre free to disagree with me, but I think if you honestly, objectively look at it, you'll see that if I gave you 100 billion isk, buying a hulk BPO would be a poor use of that isk.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Everything in this game is PVP. Even this conversation we're having right now.
lol again you missed my point. theres nothing in this game that makes anyone do anything, nobody has to even undock, or log in. Its just that theres additional incentive to do so.
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Sigras
#2. I submit that there doesnt need to be a way to force T2 BPOs to be sold because the incentives are enough to have several of the owners putting theirs on the market.
I submit that their occasional sale is a bit immaterial to the argument that they need to go away or be freely available.
-Liang
First of all, their sale is not what I would call occasional.
Secondly, perhaps we need to discuss the difference between opinion and fact.
Im glad that you felt free to state your opinion; now, do you have any facts to support your opinion?
|
Selak Zorander
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 15:29:00 -
[722]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Mara Rinn
"Static" plexes were "unpinned." You will no longer be able to milk a 10/10 DED complex simply because you have the borders locked down. The 3-10/10s still exist though, they haven't been removed from the game.
In the same way, T2 BPOs should be "unpinned". You should no longer be able to milk the T2 industry market simply because you bought a T2 BPO (or won it in the lottery).
-Liang
I am pretty sure that invention did that or do you not remember the fact that tech 2 cap rechargers were rarely on the market for less than 20 to 30 mil a single unit (when build cost was less than 1 mil isk a unit). Yes before invention tech 2 bpo made massive profits, after invention not so much.
As for costs, if one character can easily make 3+ billion a month on invention alone I think that far outweighs the possible 1 billion a month that a character can make on one tech 2 bpo. I know of atleast one person in game that made 3+ billion a month in profit from invention and kept atleast 3 account going with plex from just that one character doing invention.
So where is your math that someone having a tech 2 bpo is making so much more isk than the inventor that knows what they are doing and can change products to match the market?
|
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 15:35:00 -
[723]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/12/2010 15:49:13
Originally by: Selak Zorander tech 2 cap rechargers were rarely on the market for less than 20 to 30 mil a single unit (when build cost was less than 1 mil isk a unit)
IIRC, build cost was more along the lines of less than 50k per unit, and fuel costs were not radically higher for using a rapid assembly array Now, it's somewhere around 120k (without the fuel costs) and sells for a bit over half a mil. From 60000% to 300% per-unit profit Or better said, from up to 1.5 bil per day to around 15 mil per day after you take into account POS fuel costs and such, or 12 mil/day in a regular NPC manufacture slot. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts _
|
Selak Zorander
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 15:45:00 -
[724]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 28/12/2010 15:42:30
Originally by: Selak Zorander tech 2 cap rechargers were rarely on the market for less than 20 to 30 mil a single unit (when build cost was less than 1 mil isk a unit)
IIRC, build cost was more along the lines of less than 50k per unit in a rapid assembly array Now, it's somewhere around 120k and sells for a bit over half a mil. From 60000% to 300% per-unit profit Or better said, from up to 1.5 bil per day to around 15 mil per day after you take into account POS fuel costs and such.
ah i knew someone had the right numbers somewhere. last time i looked at cap recharger 2 was several years ago when i knew that they could not be worth the 20 to 30 mil each they were selling for.
but yeah...perfect example of how invention removed the i-win button from tech 2 bpo owners
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 20:01:00 -
[725]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud
I'm quite positive the "cost" Akita is referring to is the opportunity cost and/or the cost of purchasing the print to begin with. By your logic, you should have no problem buying an EMP S BPO from me for say, 200b?
What is the opportunity cost in keeping a 30B ISK item that makes 12B/year and will sell for even more next year? TBH the only reason to sell it is because you think its about to get nerfed or you CBA to install the manufacturing job anymore. Its pretty hard to leverage *ALL* your ISK *ALL* the time.
-Liang
I have brought a Noctis BPO 2 day after they were seeded, and after a month I have more than recovered my investment. My opportunity cost was spending 390 millions for a BPO, ISK I no longer have available until and unless I sell the BPO. My ROI was the isk made selling Noctis and was more than 100% month.
Same thing for a T2 BPO with the added factors that: 1) my ROI will be several years instead of 1 month, 2) I am in no way assured that I will get my isk back when and if I sell the BPO. A change in the FOTOM set up, a nefing of the item in the BPO and I will lose most of the investment.
It is not hard to grasp.
|
Sig Sour
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 20:57:00 -
[726]
Originally by: Titan Fan2000 Get me 1 of each type of Titan in Jita which I can freely use and I'll give you your Scourge Fury BPOs.
Nice argument, other than the fact that I never claimed that you could fly Titans around Jita.
Originally by: Shai 'Hulud I'm quite positive the "cost" Akita is referring to is the opportunity cost and/or the cost of purchasing the print to begin with. By your logic, you should have no problem buying an EMP S BPO from me for say, 200b?
When you buy a T2 BPO, it is an investment. Unless you are really bad at this game there is no cost when investing into a T2 BPO. Opportunity cost is a hypothetical standpoint and only vaguely relevant to the game balance issue at hand. Where did you make the jump to 200b ISK EMP s BPOs?
Originally by: Titan Fan2000 Are you personally guranteeing 100% money back + possible profits?
In a game where a Dramiel dies to a badger, a Cynabal dies to a Rifter, and stupid is in no shortage... Why don't you go ahead an draw up a business proposal to why I would do that and evemail it to me.
Originally by: Titan Fan2000 You know why you have difficulty understanding the 2 statements? Because you took them out of context and you brain magically ignored the rest of the post and the post it was in response to.
Go start a fire, and then put your hand in that fire. In less than a second you should realize this was a mistake. At this point I want you to use the same argument that is trying to be held by Akita as weather or not to pull your hand out of the fire. Will you find yourself sitting there burning your hand to a crisp ("I've got the rest of my body, whats done is done."), or will you pull your hand out?
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Akita T Would the game be a better place if the lottery would have never existed, if invention was the only way to get T2 items ? Sure. [...] No, the introduction of T2 BPOs wasn't bad game design.
Just wanted those two statements to sit next to each other for LOL's. Also the way T2 BPO's exist in Eve is a text book example of things not to do when making a game because it is bad game design.
FYP (removed useless apostrophes, etc). senseless scampering of a non iPhone friendly attempt to salvage pride lost by contradicting one self
Don't remove my gratuitous use of apostrophes, thanks.
I don't believe your claim that you are not a T2 BPO owner. You do not usually make yourself look like such a fool, and to this end I can only imagine that you are doing so for self preservation.
|
Sig Sour
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 21:05:00 -
[727]
Originally by: Venkul Mul I have brought a Noctis BPO 2 day after they were seeded, and after a month I have more than recovered my investment. My opportunity cost was spending 390 millions for a BPO, ISK I no longer have available until and unless I sell the BPO. My ROI was the isk made selling Noctis and was more than 100% month.
Same thing for a T2 BPO with the added factors that: 1) my ROI will be several years instead of 1 month, 2) I am in no way assured that I will get my isk back when and if I sell the BPO. A change in the FOTOM set up, a nefing of the item in the BPO and I will lose most of the investment.
It is not hard to grasp.
The Noctis BPO was a bad investment, for many reasons. If you have not sold the BPO, your investment is retained in your BPO. Your opportunity cost is having that isk invested in the BPO, but it is hypothetical that you could have made better money somewhere else so bringing opportunity cost into this argument as leverage is a foolish attempt to derail the conversation into hearsay arguments.
|
Brunaburh
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 21:44:00 -
[728]
I read this thread when it first came out, and I had the single greatest reason to get rid of T2 BPOs.
Because the whining and complaining about someone having T2 BPOs would stop.
Then I realized that if that happened, they would start whining about something else. So I think T2 BPOs should stay, simply so I am not surprised by a new complaint.
Happy New Year
|
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 21:56:00 -
[729]
Originally by: Sig Sour
Opportunity cost is a hypothetical standpoint and only vaguely relevant to the game balance issue at hand.
If opportunity cost is indeed "only vaguely relevant", then why does the opportunity cost of T2 BPOs by itself negate virtually all of the complaints mentioned in this thread? By this I mean that except for the extraordinarily wealthy (hundreds of billions or higher in net worth), who have troubles managing their money, you sacrifice earning power when you buy a T2 BPO.
Wouldn't that mean that opportunity cost is instead probably the most important consideration with respect to T2 BPOs?
|
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.12.28 22:19:00 -
[730]
Edited by: Stella SGP on 28/12/2010 22:25:16
Originally by: Sig Sour The Noctis BPO was a bad investment, for many reasons. If you have not sold the BPO, your investment is retained in your BPO. Your opportunity cost is having that isk invested in the BPO, but it is hypothetical that you could have made better money somewhere else so bringing opportunity cost into this argument as leverage is a foolish attempt to derail the conversation into hearsay arguments.
Wow an investment that yielded him 100% profit in 1 month is bad investment huh... T2 bpos do require an initial investment, hence an opportunity cost. Funny enough he just said that the concept isn't hard to grasp too.
Originally by: Sig Sour Nice argument, other than the fact that I never claimed that you could fly Titans around Jita.
You missed the point. You gave me a stupid statement and I gave you another equally ridiculous statement back. You want to give me a baseless claim and argument about T2 bpo, I can also give you an equally ridiculous claim and argument about Titans. If you think I sound stupid there, heh thats exactly how you sound like...
Originally by: Sig Sour In a game where a Dramiel dies to a badger, a Cynabal dies to a Rifter, and stupid is in no shortage... Why don't you go ahead an draw up a business proposal to why I would do that and evemail it to me.
Again your taking words out of context. Reason I asked you that in the first place was because you made another silly claim that all T2 bpo owners can definitely profit from selling their T2 bpo later.
You still crying? I hear triple ply facial tissues holds up better when they get wet.
This isn't even an argument you claim it is, wheres your prove or numbers?
|
|
BorderRunner 97
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 03:05:00 -
[731]
I say leave the T2 BPOs in the game. But I would like to see then bring the T2 BPO ways to gain them like through missions and such for a few months once every x amount of years.
The return on a T2 BPO isn't fast but people who do R&D agents can make ISK fast as a T2 BPO owner. People are gonna keep selling their T2 BPOs so its possible to get your hands on one if you have the ISK.
|
Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 03:58:00 -
[732]
Originally by: BorderRunner 97
The return on a T2 BPO isn't fast but people who do R&D agents can make ISK fast as a T2 BPO owner.
You don't need datacores for T2 BPOs. Datacores currently are only needed for invention. And the isk you earn from datacores is pretty much the same whether you use it in invention yourself or sell on the market.
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 05:16:00 -
[733]
Originally by: Stella SGP Edit - Oh look, once again we added absolutely zero to this thread topic.
Yes, I tend to agree you haven't added anything to the topic. :)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 06:12:00 -
[734]
Edited by: Stella SGP on 29/12/2010 06:16:01
Originally by: Liang Nuren Yes, I tend to agree you haven't added anything to the topic. :)
Wet T-shirt contest is that way -->
I just hope to be able to see some quantitative prove of what people are claiming about T2 Bpos here.
Edit - Sorry, I don't mean to be rude to you.
|
Sig Sour
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 06:15:00 -
[735]
Originally by: Titan Fan2000 You missed the point. You gave me a stupid statement and I gave you another equally ridiculous statement back.
Actually you missed the point in the first place. Someone made a stupid comment and I made one back that illustrated their stupidity then you came in with a truck load of stupid from every angle and unloaded on us, thanks.
Originally by: Titan Fan2000 To be honest, I don't understand...
To the surprise of none.
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 06:18:00 -
[736]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 06:18:40
Originally by: Stella SGP Edit - Sorry, I don't mean to be rude to you.
Yeah, you really did. And that's ok - I'm pretty ****ing astounded by what I'm seeing in my cost comparison so far. Its... very revealing. I hope you sell your T2 BPOs soon. To me. Because I'm buying 9 T2 BPOs as fast as I can. :)
-Liang
Ed: Also, T2 BPOs are completely fair. 100% fair. TRUST ME THEY ARE NOT OVERPOWERED AT ALL!!!! -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Umega
Solis Mensa
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 06:44:00 -
[737]
Where is this 30b T2 BPO that yields 12b profit yearly.. or did you really mean return without deducting all other costs associated with production? I'm quite curious which one it is if you did you mean 12b yearly profit. At that precentage, it should be going for more than 30b to aquire. Not one that very rarely MIGHT, but really doesn't sell that many items in a year to actually get that value.. such would just be words with no actual substance.
Akita.. how much did you get with 30b around Dominion in just a couple of months?
Imagine the investment returns on 30b of robotics bought at Tyrannis and waiting a mere half year..
Wow.. I wish I bought/saved more nocx than I did before the insurance/loot/drone goo changes. Bought about 30b worth.. and end up with 160ish-bil worth six months later..
Huh. I guess those T2 BPOs aren't really all that powerful when you actually consider things. And while one T2 BPO ties up all that isk for one production slot.. you could dump it into 11 high volumn/profit margin perfect ME T1 BPOs and fill a character's manufacturing slots. Churning out more per month.. FAR more per month than a lone T2 BPO, and cheaper to invest into too (depending on which BPOs). One of those T1 BPOs might tank from CCP tweaks/changes.. but 10 still going, and maybe the tweaks strength a different one and increase sales + price. While if the T2 item/ship tanks from tweaks.. well, ****ed.
By the logic that "T2 BPOs give an unfair advantage to a player".. we'd need to remove all the differences in T1 BPOs, no more perfect MEs. CCP would have to stop making adjustments and implementing new features, new game mechanics, and new items into the game for people to take advantage of. Or put a hardcap on the amount of isk an account can hold, taking isk away from anyone that exceeds it.
Thats some pretty terrible, **** ass logic in general.. especially for an MMO GAME meant is for enjoyment that is driven by capitalism. The Market and PvP are tied closely together.. it is an important aspect, as it should be. ---------------------------------------- Be a part of a solution instead of a lil whiney *****. |
Rampant Carnage
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 06:45:00 -
[738]
I would vote for removing invention and make the T2 BPOs available just like normal BPOs. Problem solved (sure, you then have useless skills and useless agents, but they could be removed).
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 06:47:00 -
[739]
Originally by: Umega Where is this 30b T2 BPO that yields 12b profit yearly.
It doesn't exist. Nowhere. T2 BPOs are completely fair. Really. BTW, do you have any T2 BPOs you're willing to part with? They're worthless you know. Terrible investments. :)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 06:53:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Titan Fan2000 You missed the point. You gave me a stupid statement and I gave you another equally ridiculous statement back.
Actually you missed the point in the first place. Someone made a stupid comment and I made one back that illustrated their stupidity then you came in with a truck load of stupid from every angle and unloaded on us, thanks.
Pffft... you came into this thread with a truckload of tears first. How do you expect me to respond?
Originally by: Sig Sour
Originally by: Umega You are freely avialable to purchase a T2 BPO.
Great, go get me two dozen Scourge Fury Heavy Missile BPO's. I'll pay you 10x the seeded price.
You CAN buy T2 bpos just because you're too dumb to buy one doesn't mean they aren't available.
Do you really believe what asked for is reasonable? Then go buy me 2 dozen Imperial Armageddons, hey I'll pay you 10x the seeded price too.
|
|
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 07:00:00 -
[741]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 06:29:20
Originally by: Stella SGP Edit - Sorry, I don't mean to be rude to you.
Yeah, you really did. And that's ok - I'm pretty ****ing astounded by what I'm seeing in my cost comparison so far. Its... very revealing. I hope you sell your T2 BPOs soon. To me. Because I'm buying 9 T2 BPOs as fast as I can. :)
Ed: Also, T2 BPOs are completely fair. 100% fair. TRUST ME THEY ARE NOT OVERPOWERED AT ALL!!!!
Scratch that, 8 BPOs.
Yay we'll see some numbers soon! Welcome to the "I got too much isk and no where to spend" club!
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 07:03:00 -
[742]
Originally by: Stella SGP Yay we'll see some numbers soon! Welcome to the "I got too much isk and no where to spend" club!
I'll post my numbers here for 10B ISK or a T2 BPO.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 07:09:00 -
[743]
Liang, your starting to talk Gibberish in sell forum. Was the math too hard for you? Or you can't stand losing an argument?
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 07:11:00 -
[744]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 07:11:36
Originally by: Stella SGP Liang, your starting to talk Gibberish in sell forum. Was the math too hard for you? Or you can't stand losing an argument?
No, the math most assuredly wasn't too hard for me. You give me 10B ISK and I'll post it for you. :)
-Liang
Ed: I'm also willing to accept a T2 BPO. They're worthless though. But it'd be cool to have a novelty item. You know. :) -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 07:25:00 -
[745]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 29/12/2010 07:11:36
Originally by: Stella SGP Liang, your starting to talk Gibberish in sell forum. Was the math too hard for you? Or you can't stand losing an argument?
No, the math most assuredly wasn't too hard for me. You give me 10B ISK and I'll post it for you. :)
-Liang
Ed: I'm also willing to accept a T2 BPO. They're worthless though. But it'd be cool to have a novelty item. You know. :)
I didn't say they were worthless, just not as overpowered as you claim they are.
Good luck with your offer on the Neutron Blaster II tho.
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 07:28:00 -
[746]
Originally by: Stella SGP I didn't say they were worthless, just not as overpowered as you claim they are.
No, they're totally normal. Maybe underpowered. Might need a boost.
Quote: Good luck with your offer on the Neutron Blaster II tho.
Yeah, just hoping I didn't do too much damage to T2 BPOs and get them nerfed. You guys are totally right - they're very much not overpowered. Invention totally keeps a price cap on it and invention is a total success. :) Sorry I was wrong! -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Sig Sour
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 07:50:00 -
[747]
Edited by: Sig Sour on 29/12/2010 07:52:40
Originally by: Stella SGP Pffft... you came into this thread with a truckload of tears first. How do you expect me to respond?
Actually you jumped to a conclusion on that one just like you did the first one.
Originally by: Stella SGP You CAN buy T2 bpos just because you're too dumb to buy one doesn't mean they aren't available.
Do you really believe what asked for is reasonable? Then go buy me 2 dozen Imperial Armageddons, hey I'll pay you 10x the seeded price too.
Hey stupid! He said FREELY available.
Also I will gladly fill your order for 2 dozen Imp Navy Geddons.
|
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 08:15:00 -
[748]
Edited by: Stella SGP on 29/12/2010 08:19:36
Originally by: Sig Sour Edited by: Sig Sour on 29/12/2010 07:52:40
Originally by: Stella SGP Pffft... you came into this thread with a truckload of tears first. How do you expect me to respond?
Actually you jumped to a conclusion on that one just like you did the first one.
Originally by: Stella SGP You CAN buy T2 bpos just because you're too dumb to buy one doesn't mean they aren't available.
Do you really believe what asked for is reasonable? Then go buy me 2 dozen Imperial Armageddons, hey I'll pay you 10x the seeded price too.
Hey stupid! He said FREELY available.
Also I will gladly fill your order for 2 dozen Imp Navy Geddons.
Its pointless talking to you because any reply I give you will just include more personal attacks and all you're interested in is cherry picking words and statement.
Good luck finding 2 dozen Imperial Armageddons.
Edit - Oh wait I guess you're gona say I intentionally mislead you as I didn't use the proper game name for the ships right.
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 08:28:00 -
[749]
Originally by: Stella SGP Imperial Geddon
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Armageddon_Imperial_Issue
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Stella SGP
The Kimotoro Initiative
|
Posted - 2010.12.29 09:05:00 -
[750]
Yea there should be only 2 or 3 of these shiny buttplugs left in the game.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 40 .. 40 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |