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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 18:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
hulk bonuses are unchanged so (so it's mining yield is unchanged) so we can figure out all the mining rates relative to a hulk
these calculations are based on Exhumers V/Barge V char, for mining rock not ice - this is without MLUs
Ship - Strips * modifiers = effective # of strip mining modules
Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675 Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15 Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15
Covetor - 3 strips * 1.2 (barge V) = 3.6 Retriever - 2 strips * 1.5 (role bonus) = 3 strips Procurer - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) = 3 strips
or % relative to a hulk
Mackinaw: 79.4% Skiff: 79.4%
Covetor: 90.7% Retriever: 75.6% Procurer: 75.6%
note: there is now an ice mining and a mercoxit rig
see thread in the test server forum
note: more posts to come, i'm going to try to find ships with comparable stats (CPU/PG/HP) to post side-by-side I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 19:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
more information dump
Ship: Shield/Armor/Structure - L/M/H slots - CPU/PG
Hulk: 2500 / 2300 / 2700 - 2/4/3 - 300/35 Mackinaw: 4000 / 3700 / 4300 - 3/4/2 - 270/35 Skiff: 6500 / 5500 / 6000 - 2/5/1 - 270/50
Covetor: 2200 / 1800 / 2000 - 2/1/3 - 225/35 Retriever: 3800 / 3200 / 3500 - 3/1/2 - 235/35 Procurer: 6000 / 5000 / 5500 - 250/45
(note: i used a no skill char in EFT to get the PG when i was unchanged.. so i'm not 100% sure that is correct)
Cargo/Ore bay capacities Hulk: 500/7500 Mackinaw: 350/25000 (+10% ore hold per mining barge skill level) Skiff: 350 / 17500
Covetor: 500/7000 Retriver: 350/20000 (+10% ore hold per mining barge skill level) Procurer: 350/15000
next up: finding ships with similar base hitpoints I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 19:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ron Maudieu wrote:Woah, retriever has 3 highs? I'm liking this change already.
3 lows I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 19:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
you still need to train for a hauler, but not for your ore (for your minerals :P)
i'm going to try to alter pyfa to update it with the new stats (pyfa use an sqllite database) I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
i was able to get the tanking attributes of the hulk modified - and here is the fit comparison for the following fit [which requires a CPU implant]
[Hulk, Highsec Gank proof] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Kernite Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Kernite Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Kernite Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Mining Drone II x5 Hobgoblin II x5
EFT stats (current): 30,235 EHP (20034 shield / 2292 armor / 7909 structure), 107 dps shield tank [passive recharge], Pyfa (test server tank): 42,638 [29814 shield / 5010 armor / 7812 structure), 99.382 dps shield tank [passive recharge]
I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
updated the mackinaw's EHP/slot/CPU stats and i was able to make this fit
[Mackinaw, Inferno 1.2 test]
Damage Control II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Basic EM Ward Amplifier Medium Shield Extender II Residual Survey Scanner I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Pyfa EHP: 44919 [ 24 358 shield, 8061 armor, 12500 hull ]
effective mining output: 3.99 strip miner IIs I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
The skiff just made me **** in my pants (j/k)
[Skiff, inferno 1.2 test]
Damage Control II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
effective mining output: 3.54 strip miners EHP: 106,993 [76 260 shield / 11982 armor / 18750 hull] shield resists: 82.2 / 77.4 / 83.0 / 84.2 tank (passive recharge) 407 HP/s
I now crown the new king of 0.0 mining. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Victoria Sin wrote:What are the stats on the ice and mercoxit rigs?
ice rig: iceHarvestCycleBonus: -12.0
mercoxit rig: miningAmountBonus: 16.0
note: only one mining rig may be used on a ship
another skiff fit
[Skiff, inferno 1.2 test2]
Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
84.4k ehp, 365 ehp recharge tank I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Talon Kitsune wrote:Denidil wrote:effective mining output: 3.54 strip miners EHP: 106,993 [76 260 shield / 11982 armor / 18750 hull] shield resists: 82.2 / 77.4 / 83.0 / 84.2 tank (passive recharge) 407 HP/s And it'd still have a respectable cargo capacity, higher than most current hulks not afk spec'd. Yeah, if anyone's getting ganked after 1.2 by the 2 week alt on a catalyst with options like this out there, they are doing something seriously wrong. This thing could shrug off a nado gank.
a hulk with 2x expanded cargohold IIs and 2x cargohold optimization I rigs is 17199m3 with tech 2 rigs it is 18727m3
the mackinaw i listed above is 37500 (skills) and 50% more EHP than a "FU tanked" hulk - and the FU fitted tank has to give up it's MLUs which gives the mackinaw more mining output I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:have ice/mercox bonuses been removed from ships?
also i'll take back the bad things i said about the mackinaw, nearly 40k cargo space is nothing to be sniffed at. the cargo is large enough for it's niche to be worth while. in fact, i might even use one myself. especially since it has an extra low for an additional MLU if the cpu can support it to bring it even closer in line with the hulk.
overall good changes imo.
yes they have been removed - they've been moved to rigs I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 20:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zifrian wrote:Lot of good changes there. Looks like I gotta do some work on IPH soon.
do you have a fitting tool in it? otherwise you don't really need to change anything - hulk w/ 2 MLUs is still king. a skiff or mackinaw with 2 MLUs comes out just above a hulk with no MLUs I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nevryn Takis wrote:Wow great... A hulk still can't mine more than 1 cycle ...
hulk is intended to be a fleet mining ship - dumping into something bigger. they said this from the start. a 2 MLU mackinaw is 80% of the yield of 2 MLU hulk and a lot more survivability [and ore bay] I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:
How is someone testing the new stats on the test server when sisi changes aren't live that I can see.?
i'm a software engineer and i took a look at pyfa and noticed they used a sqllite database to store the ship stats .. so i went an altered it and i've just been "pyfa warrioring". i don't know where Sarmatiko got his raw data dump. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 21:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote: I really don;t want to see role bonus go completely away.. I think that would be fail.
the role bonus isn't gone.. it's different
procurer/skiff - survivability [deep space miner] retriever/covetor - ore bay [solo miner] covetor/hulk - mining yield [fleet miner]
generic ore vs mercoxit vs ice is all a fitting change now I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
298
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 22:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote: Can't you just out range the clouds?
yeah.. 5km. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
299
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 01:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
managed to fit 3 MLU2s on a mack :P requires an implant
[Mackinaw, 3MLUs+buffer [needs implants]]
Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Medium 'Canyon' Shield Extender Residual Survey Scanner I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Zainou 'Gypsy' Electronics EE-604
EHP 35792 HP - shield resists 63.3 / 70.6 / 78 / 79.5
90% of the output of a 2 MLU hulk [i could be wrong if there are diminishing returns on MLUs] I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
301
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 05:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
just a quick note - i'm going to be offline for a few days so you will be without my pyfawarrioring skills.. i hope you can survive without me :P I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
312
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
i'm back early from my camping trip
No ships have inherent bonuses to certain types of mining anymore (ie no mack bonus for ice, skiff bonus for mercoxit, etc)
Sandrestal wrote:One problem I see is can flippers will have a field day with solo miners in high sec. Using expanders you could get 17k m3 of cargo in a hulk. Now you have to be dumping ore into a jet can every cycle. Way to go ccp.
USE A MACKINAW. 37500m3 ore hold! for **** sake, CCP is making you make a tradeoff - and not a terribly bad one - of somewhat lower yield for less attention required.
Tau Cabalander wrote:Denidil wrote:i was able to get the tanking attributes of the hulk modified - and here is the fit comparison for the following fit [which requires a CPU implant]
[Hulk, Highsec Gank proof]
EFT stats (current): 30,235 EHP (20034 shield / 2292 armor / 7909 structure), 107 dps shield tank [passive recharge], Pyfa (test server tank): 42,638 [29814 shield / 5010 armor / 7812 structure), 99.382 dps shield tank [passive recharge]
How does that compare to my current fit (requires EG-604 though EG-605 is cheaper as the former is from CONCORD, but not needed with t1 strips): EFT stats (current): 32,576 EHP (22779 shield / 2265 armor / 7533 structure), 121 DPS shield tank [passive recharge] [Hulk, EHP] Micro Auxiliary Power Core II Internal Force Field Array I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Hobgoblin II x5 Mining Drone II x5 I haven't yet gotten any ship to mine as much or more than a Hulk on Sisi (built-in +30% yield), but it is more tedious to test when I have to buy and swap modules.
my modified pyfa gives that 46292 EHP
Haffsol fitting a 1.6 billion hulk with ore strip miners and cargohold expanders is just horrible, [/quote wrote:
and is a loot pinata - even post-buff i would be temped to gank a hulk like that and i ******* mine (on an alt)
[quote=Darveses]Sorry if I missed it, but has anyone tried ASB fits yet?
no, but i will now! I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
312
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:51:00 -
[19] - Quote
[Hulk, ASB]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Internal Force Field Array I
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Hobgoblin II x5 Mining Drone II x5
requires +3% or better cpu implant - 37k ehp, 268 dps tank
[Mackinaw, 3MLUs MASB [needs implants] copy]
Erin Mining Laser Upgrade Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Supplemental EM Ward Amplifier Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II
needs a +5% cpu implant - 36.4k ehp, 193 dps tank
[Mackinaw, 2MLUs MASB]
Damage Control II Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Basic EM Ward Amplifier Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
45k ehp, 220 dps tank
[Skiff, 2MLUs ASB]
Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50 Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
56.6k ehp buffer, 207 hp/s passive shield regen, 465 hp/s from ASBs
this is how you win eve (i'm going to have to make a officer fit of this for laughs)
[Skiff, Max ASB]
Damage Control II Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50 Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50 Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
92.6k ehp, 434 hp/s passive shield recharge, 560 hp/s ASB boost
SKIFF WITH A 1000 DPS ASB+REGEN TANK? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
312
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.
if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield.
you are correct. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
312
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 16:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
aaand now for utter hilarity
[Skiff, Max ASB loot pinata]
Damage Control II Shield Power Relay II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50 Medium Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 50 Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
130k EHP, 1239 dps/sec regen, 1190 dps/sec ASBS
3487 dps tank'ed Skiff :D gawd ASBs are over powered.
skiff is capable of one strong regen tank though - i crown it the new king of 0.0 mining (outside of fleets)
actual every-day-fit
[Skiff, 2MLUs]
Mining Laser Upgrade II Mining Laser Upgrade II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium Shield Extender II Shield Recharger II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
62.8k ehp, 442 hp/s
I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
312
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 17:34:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Denidil wrote:Dave stark wrote:with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.
if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield. you are correct. Well, a Hulk has a bonus of 30% and a Skiff has a bonus of 5%. So you need to fit at least 3 MLU to match a Hulk, and the Skiff has 2 low slots (unless that was changed, as I don't see it on pastebin).
read what we were saying
dual MLU skiff vs non-MLU'ed hulk I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
312
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 19:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Denidil wrote:Tau Cabalander wrote:Denidil wrote:Dave stark wrote:with all due respect, any hulk fit without mlu IIs are pointless.
if you're sacrificing those to fit a tank on a hulk you may as well just mine in a mlu'd skiff, odds are you'll have both more ehp and yield. you are correct. Well, a Hulk has a bonus of 30% and a Skiff has a bonus of 5%. So you need to fit at least 3 MLU to match a Hulk, and the Skiff has 2 low slots (unless that was changed, as I don't see it on pastebin). read what we were saying dual MLU skiff vs non-MLU'ed hulk I did. I even quoted it. Please explain assuming I'm clueless, as I apparently am. No MLU Hulk: 30% bonus. Dual MLU Skiff: 23% bonus. That's a 7% cost for durability and a larger ore hold. If the size of the hold is the issue, then of course Dave stark's comment should have mentioned that (i.e, when mining solo) , rather than being an apparent blanket statement. But if I'm still missing something, please enlighten me. I'm trying to understand these "new" ships, just like everyone else.
Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675 Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15 Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15 I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
313
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 20:28:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Denidil wrote:Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675 Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15 Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15 0.8175/3.15 = 25.9..% hulk is ^ much better than a skiff or mack before mlus etc.
wtf? where did you get .8175 from? make sense dammit I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
313
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 20:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Dave stark wrote:where are you getting 30 and 23 from? perhaps we can clear up some confusion. No MLU Hulk: 30% = 3% per level of Mining Barge + 3% per level of Exhumers 2x MLU Skiff: 23% = 1% per level of Exhumers + two 9% MLU As far as I can see, all the ships have otherwise been normalized at 3 strips.
there is your error.. you didn't read the changes to the ship
new skiff:
Quote: Mining Barge skill bonus per level: 5% bonus to shield hit points 7.5% bonus to all shield resistances
Exhumer skill bonus per level: 1% bonus to Strip Miner yield 1% reduction in Ice Harvester duration
Role Bonus: 200% bonus to Strip Miner yield 66.66% reduction in Ice Harvester Duration and capacitor use
hence we go back to my math:
Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675 Mackinaw - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15 Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15
i believed they are manipulatively combined not added (the bonuses)
but if they are added
hulk = 3.9 (3*1.3) Mack = 3.1 (2*1.55) Skiff = 3.05 (3*1.05) I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
313
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 21:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Denidil wrote:there is your error.. you didn't read the changes to the ship Yes I did. That is making a 1 strip Skiff into a 3 strip Skiff. 1 * (1 + 200%) = 3 As I stated, all the ships were normalized at 3 strips. So that leaves the two 15% bonuses for the hulk and the 5% for the skiff as being the main differences, plus fitting two 9% mlu to the skiff. So I still don't see how a 2 MLU skiff is on-par or better than a no-mlu hulk. Not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Hulk - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675 Skiff - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 * 1.09^2 (two MLU II) = 3.742515 I don't think there is stacking penalty on MLU, but if there is, then the Skiff is even less.
there apparently isn't a stacking penalty
Here i'll make a full chart with/without MLUs (round-down on all)
Hulk (no MLUs) - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) = 3.9675 Hulk (1x MLUs) - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) * 1.09 = 4.3245 Hulk (2x MLUs) - 3 strips * 1.15 (barge V) * 1.15 (exhumers V) * 1.09 * 1.09 = 4.7137
Mackinaw (No MLUs) - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) = 3.15 Mackinaw (1x MLUs) - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) * 1.09 = 3.4335 Mackinaw (2x MLUs) - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) * 1.09 * 1.09 = 3.7425 Mackinaw (3x MLUs) - 2 strips * 1.50 (role bonus) * 1.05 (exhumers V) * 1.09 * 1.09 = 4.0793
Skiff (No MLUs) - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 = 3.15 Skiff (1x MLUs) - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 * 1.09 = 3.4335 Skiff (2x MLUs) - 1 strips * 3 (role bonus) * 1.05 * 1.09 * 1.09 = 3.7425
so you're right - I was thinking of a 3x MLU mackinaw, not a skiff
No MLU Hulk (pure tank) - 49.3k (needs +4% PG implant) 2x MLU hulk - 28.6k ehp (needs +5% cpu implant) 1x MLU hulk - 40k EHP (needs +4% cpu implant)
3x MLU mackinaw - 37.7k (needs +5% CPU implant) - 103% output of a zero MLU hulk, 81.4% of the tank 2x MLU Mackinaw - 52.4k ehp (needs +5% CPU, +4% PG implants) - 94.3% of the output of a zeru MLU hulk, 1.13% of the tank
2x MLU Skiff - 62.8k EHP (and 376 hp/s regen tank, and that is with a survey scanner II) = 94.3% output, 127% the tank
lots of tech 2 shield and pg rigs flying around these fits
updatin the chart on page one I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
315
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Posted - 2012.07.26 01:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Denidil wrote:so you're right - I was thinking of a 3x MLU mackinaw, not a skiff Ah, good, so I'm not completely insane. Good to know. Thanks! Thanks for all the math too! Now I have to check some more Mackinaw fittings. Most of the fittings I tried were very tight, lower yield than a no-MLU Hulk (I posted my current fit previously), and not significantly more tank. I don't consider to have fully explored every possibility yet though (I don't have mining upgrades 4 yet *blush*). And don't get me wrong, I think the improved Skiff is an awesome addition. I'd probably use them if I was still living in w-space.
inherently yield to the fit is all down to the MLUs - if you want the fits i'm theorycrafting with they're buried in the threads somewhere but i'm constantly tweaking, i can evemail the latest editions to you. I like all these gankbear tears, now maybe you'll have to go prove your "l33t pvp" skills against something that shoots back like the rest of us do. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
new batch of changes.. analyzing.
http://pastebin.com/fnuau8HH
skill requirements to fly updated for all ships
Procurer: 3 more midslots (4 total now), 25 drone capacity and bandwidth
Retriever: base orehold 22500, +5% per barge level
Hulk: Base Resit change, suspect a typo! 100/50/60/80 (from 62.5/35/37.5/50) - resist bonus change from 3.0% to 7.5%/level
Mackinaw: Same resists as Hulk now
Skiff: 50m3/50mbit drone, same resists as other exhumers and same resist bonus
rigging costs ice and mercoxit role rigs increased to 250
looks like i need to go update my pyfa again and refigure all the tanking numbers.
it doesn't look like this dump has actually gone live yet. (retriver still has 1 mid) .. however something has gone live
T1 laser crystals: 15m3 T2 laser crystals: 25m3
If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
these resists changes are BAAAAD
max ehp hulk went from 49.3k to 35.9k on the same fit. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
pyfa isn't applying the resist bonuses.. i'm trying to see if i can fix that. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 16:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
looks like i need to do manual comparisons in game between live and test now to compare tanking stats
[edit] test server confirmed - overall hulk resistances are lower.. but i'm level 4 .. but sisi is showing 25% EM for level 4 not 30% for level 4.. so something isn't right If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 16:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
actually resistances are based on mining barge, not exhumers.. so it is really really wrong. i bugreported If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 16:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Denidil wrote:actually resistances are based on mining barge, not exhumers.. so it is really really wrong. i bugreported if it's mining barge level 5*1.05 is 1.25... right? so it's gone from 7.5% per barge level, to 5%
yeah i think they're messed it up based on the dump.. dump says it should be 7.5/level If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
336
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 18:54:00 -
[34] - Quote
yeah they reduced the mac hold.. so lame If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
339
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 17:36:00 -
[35] - Quote
get the shitposting e-peen contest out of the thread you wankers. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
392
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 03:51:00 -
[36] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all. If you don't have skills to gank tanked ships maybe you should continue ganking those untanked ships. Getting friends should help too. And again, if you think Skiff is useless with its role what role you would give it? Tanky mining ship isn't acceptable because you say it's useless role. I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role. It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless. If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role.
total EHP isn't the only type of tanking
*cough*regen sustained tank*cough*0.0 belt rats*cough* If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
392
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 04:10:00 -
[37] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Denidil wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Guess CCP didn't want the Skiff to be a viable ship after all. If you don't have skills to gank tanked ships maybe you should continue ganking those untanked ships. Getting friends should help too. And again, if you think Skiff is useless with its role what role you would give it? Tanky mining ship isn't acceptable because you say it's useless role. I would give the Skiff the role of the Tanky Mining ship (like CCP intended). But the Hulk with 0 MLUs mines better than the Skiff and has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. And the Mackinaw with 3 MLUs mines better than both of those and still has more than enough EHP to prevent ganks. So CCP has screwed up by making those two ships too tanky to allow space for the ship that they would like to see have a role fill that role. It already takes a Max Skill catalyst gang to take out a tanked Hulk at a break-even point in .5 space. Lower skills mean you need an extra ship, which turns the gank into a losing proposition. No amount of skilling up will allow you to gank the new Hulk profitably. That means that the Skiff, which mines less than the new Hulk is utterly useless. If CCP hadn't overdone it with the Mack and Hulk's tank, a third, Tanky Exhumer would have a role. total EHP isn't the only type of tanking *cough*regen sustained tank*cough*0.0 belt rats*cough* Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.
oh do they not? last time i Pyfa'ed them i couldn't get them to tank rats.. but that could have been because i wasn't able to modify pyfa completely for the new stats. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
392
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 18:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Denidil wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.
oh do they not? last time i Pyfa'ed them i couldn't get them to tank rats.. but that could have been because i wasn't able to modify pyfa completely for the new stats. This'll do it (though, obviously, T2 will do better). The Hulk they primary puts out DPS drones, the rest rep the Hulk. As for the Mack, should be able to do it similarly with the EHP it can field, but I haven't checked. Or just put EHP on it and have your tank slowly break as your drones kill everything then it'll recharge by the time the next spawn shows up. [Hulk, Spider] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5
*facepalm*
no. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
392
|
Posted - 2012.08.05 20:49:00 -
[39] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Denidil wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Denidil wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Yeah, the New Hulk and Mack don't have any trouble with those either. So the Skiff's still totally outclassed by two ships that it's supposed to have parity with through increased defenses.
oh do they not? last time i Pyfa'ed them i couldn't get them to tank rats.. but that could have been because i wasn't able to modify pyfa completely for the new stats. This'll do it (though, obviously, T2 will do better). The Hulk they primary puts out DPS drones, the rest rep the Hulk. As for the Mack, should be able to do it similarly with the EHP it can field, but I haven't checked. Or just put EHP on it and have your tank slowly break as your drones kill everything then it'll recharge by the time the next spawn shows up. [Hulk, Spider] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] Light Shield Maintenance Bot I x5 *facepalm* no. Feel free to fill out the rest of the fit. The Hulk is a fleet ship. You'll have other Hulks in the belt with you, allowing the spider to work fine (I've used the spider to perma tank rats in TQ Mackinaws, the Hulk's not going to have any trouble).
that fitting is dumb, and not cap stable w/ strips If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
415
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 17:45:00 -
[40] - Quote
industry V is still required If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
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