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NoLimit Soldier
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Posted - 2010.08.04 14:45:00 -
[31]
I never get to see frigate gangs :(
I need to get out of highsec.
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Traska Gannel
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Posted - 2010.08.04 16:27:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Traska Gannel on 04/08/2010 16:34:41
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Originally by: NoLimit Soldier I think electronic attack frigates suck.
Please some one tell me when I would rather use a kitsune over a blackbird?
Speed? Agility? Sig radius?
Jam strength?
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NoLimit Soldier
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Posted - 2010.08.04 16:33:00 -
[33]
Having another racial Jammer is more important than the difference in jam strength.
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Ralnik
Mutineers
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Posted - 2010.08.04 17:14:00 -
[34]
EF's are just fine as they fit their niche rolls as "support" ships, not solo pwn-mobiles. The only real problem with them is they are much like Recons in the fact that they pretty much require EF V much like recons require Recon V to be good.
For this reason you just don't see a lot of them because the most likely people to fly these ships would be younger players that can't fly the full fledged Recon big brother. The problem comes down to that issue IMO, as EF's are perfect stepping stone for newer pilots flying support rolls yet newer pilots likely will elect not to train EF V as it's not that valuable compared to other skills they could train in that same time.
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Traska Gannel
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Posted - 2010.08.04 18:11:00 -
[35]
Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Having another racial Jammer is more important than the difference in jam strength.
This depends on the situation but in many situations a Kitsune is preferable.
Here is why. A blackbird jam strength (using racials) has a limit of about 10.23/3.41 with max skills, 2 signal distortion amps and 2 particle dispersion augmentor rigs. In a similar configuration the Kitsune has a jam strength of 11.7/3.9.
If you are only using 1 jammer on a target the Kitsune is always better.
You state that an extra jammer is always better on the blackbird and this is only true if that happens to be a second racial for your specific target.
Against a single target, a Kitsune with 4 different racials is always better than a blackbird with 5 racials but the extra racial not matching the target, if you are lucky and the extra jammer matches your target then the blackbird is better for targets with a sensor strength over 12.
If you are trying to jam multiple different targets with a single jammer each ... the Kitsune will always have a better chance to jam each target.
If you compare the effect of a single racial jammer on a Kitsune to 2 jammers (one racial, one off-racial) on a blackbird then the Kitsune is better for targets with a sensor strength if 18 or less while the blackbird is better for targets with a sensor strength of 18 or more (assuming it is using 2 jammers on the one target while the kitsune is using only one).
The Kitsune is always better than a blackbird for targets with a scan strength of 11 or less since it will perma jam a single target while a bb may have to use more than one jammer.
A more typical fit for a blackbird will put a plate in the low slots while a Kitsune might fit a DCII .. it doesn't change the analysis at all.
In conclusion ... both the kitsune and bb have roughly comparable jamming capabilities even though the bb may have an extra jammer - the extra jam strength on the kitsune makes up for this difference in most situations.
When deciding between a Kitsune and a Blackbird the real question is the kind of fleet ... cruisers vs. fast frigates and the expected targets. A blackbird will have more EHP, costs less and has better jamming range while it is less maneuverable.
The biggest concern I would have about a Kitsune is its targetting range compared to a Griffin or Blackbird. A Kitsune has a maximum targetting range of 52.5km without range rigs or a sebo while a bb has 93.75. The optimal on racial jammers on a max-skilled Kitsune is over 79km.
This asks the question ... what about multi-specs on a Kitsune?
The optimal on multispecs on a Kitsune is 57.5km ... greater than its targetting range.
The jam probability of 2 multispecs on a Kitsune is better than a single racial jammer on a Kitsune for sensor strengths greater than 15 or 16. 2 multispecs on a Kitsune are always better than a single racial jammer on a blackbird (except for sensor strengths that would be perma-jammed by the bb).
So .. if you are in a roaming fleet expecting to encounter 1 to 3 targets at a time then a multi-spec fitted Kitsune might be better option than a blackbird.
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NoLimit Soldier
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Posted - 2010.08.04 19:42:00 -
[36]
Man I'm sorry but that just has not been the case for me at all.
Multi's being better than racials?
A single 11.5 racial is better then a 10.5 racial + a multi?
I'm to lazy to do the numbers so I will just say that HONESTLY I think your math is seriously wrong.
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NoLimit Soldier
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Posted - 2010.08.04 19:59:00 -
[37]
Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 04/08/2010 20:01:02 Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 04/08/2010 20:00:06 Ok I got bored. So here you go.
Everyone here knows you go up against 5 frigates, a blackbird is obviously the better choice with more jamms. Just for you I spent 10 minutes on the numbers and they are as follows:
Assuming you engage a single raven(22) battleship.
Jam STR as follows: Black Bird: Racial/Offracial + Multi : 10.23/3.41 +6.8 Kitsune : Racial/Offracial: 11.7/3.9
BLACKBIRD: 46.5% + 15.5% + 15.5% + 15.5% + 30.09% = 93.2% vs KITSUNE: 53.2% + 17.7% + 17.7% + 17.7% = 86.74%
Suck it. Better at solo targets, better at fleet targets.
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wizard87
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Posted - 2010.08.05 00:21:00 -
[38]
Except when the kitsune locks out your BB coz you're a slow ass locker then you die in a fire.
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Jyngo
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2010.08.05 03:17:00 -
[39]
Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 04/08/2010 20:01:02 Edited by: NoLimit Soldier on 04/08/2010 20:00:06 Ok I got bored. So here you go.
Everyone here knows you go up against 5 frigates, a blackbird is obviously the better choice with more jamms. Just for you I spent 10 minutes on the numbers and they are as follows:
Assuming you engage a single raven(22) battleship.
Jam STR as follows: Black Bird: Racial/Offracial + Multi : 10.23/3.41 +6.8 Kitsune : Racial/Offracial: 11.7/3.9
BLACKBIRD: 46.5% + 15.5% + 15.5% + 15.5% + 30.09% = 93.2% vs KITSUNE: 53.2% + 17.7% + 17.7% + 17.7% = 86.74%
Suck it. Better at solo targets, better at fleet targets.
I dunno where you got those numbers
Using the same jamming strengths on a raven,
Kitsune: (1-11.7/22)*(1-3.9/22)^3 = 26.1% =73.9% chance of jamming
BB: (1-10.23/22)*((1-3.41/22)^3)*(1-6.8/22) =22.3% = 77.7% chance of jamming
Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Having another racial Jammer is more important than the difference in jam strength.
Lets test this on the same raven
Kitsune -same setup = 73.9% chance of jamming
BB -assuming you're unlucky and your extra jammer isn't the right one.
(1-10.23/22)*(1-3.41/22)^4 = 27.3% = 72.7% chance of jamming.
So in this comparison the Kitsune does have a better chance of jamming. Even without the BB's extra mid.
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Gladys Pank
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.08.05 03:44:00 -
[40]
I like how all discussion on EAF's descends to Blackbird vs Kitsune.
Signature locked for inappropriate image. Zymurgist |
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Frozean
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Posted - 2010.08.05 05:10:00 -
[41]
Wow.Why should i use ......
Wow why should i use HAC's? HAC's has 0.5x the dps, 0.3x the EHP, but costs more then a BS
Why should i use Battleships? BS only has 2x the dps, 1.5x the EHP, but 3x the price then a BC hull
Wow.why should i use battlecruisers? BC only has 2x the dps, 1.5x the EHP, but 9x the price then a cruiser hull
Wow. why should i use cruisers? Cruisers only has 2x the dps, 1.5x the EHP, but 10x the price then a frig hull
Wow. why should i use a frigate? Destroyers has 2x the dps, 10x the alpha, 1.5x the EHP, and costs around the same.
Equilibrium? Everyone in eve uses destroyers.Because its cost effective versus everything.
Same on why people use kitsune. Its a frigatepwnmobile. you throw frigs at it, and look at how it can disable frigs down.
Thats about it.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.08.05 08:17:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Frozean Wow.Why should i use..
- Last time I bought a HAC it was about the same price as a tier3 BS, Dps/EHP comment is accurate though but doesn't account for tracking/signature so debatable. - My BC's are almost always ganked out to the gills and do more damage than my plate BS, less EHP/range but superior manoeuvrability/tracking/signature. - My cruisers are almost always ganked out to the gills and do more damage than my plate BC's, etc. - My frigates will run circles around the fat-ass destroyers laughing maniacally while killing them.
Kitsune/Blackbird: Comes down to whether an engagement benefits from more jamming strength or more range. Tanks are approximately the same when factoring in signature/speed, what is a far more interesting question is when to use the Griffin over the others.
I'll see your equilibrium and raise you non-cookie cutter fitting paradigms
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