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Furyina
Caldari Broken Cannon
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Posted - 2010.08.05 21:32:00 -
[1]
Hello Everyone,
Just wondering if the Orca has Refining capabilities and if it does are they worth it? Also, does the Orca typically get rid of the need for haulers?
If there's any other pertinent information about the Orca that you might be able to provide for me, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm about 5 days from finishing my skills to use one and am very excited to start using it in my mining ops, but I'm trying to figure out if it's actually worth the time and money to get one, or if I should go for the Rorqual instead.
Thanks, Fury ------------------------------------- [BKCN] Broken Cannon - We are recruiting! |
Xearal
Minmatar TOXIC INDUSTRIES Kamikaze Project
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Posted - 2010.08.05 21:55:00 -
[2]
The orca cannot refine, it's meant as a boosting ship / Ore holder for a mining fleet, where the haulers can pick up the cargo from the orca instead of from cans in space.
With an orca boosting yield and mining range and cycle time, your miners will most likely be able to cover an entire belt while sitting in one spot, and drop their ore directly into the Orca's bays, then the haulers warp to the orca, and pick up the ore from the orca's bays and haul it off to wherever you want it. Ofcourse it also has drones, so this gives you the ability to do stuff like rep miners, or shoot rats, etc.
<a href="https://eve-search.com/externalLink.asp?l=http%3A%2F%2Frumandmonkey%2Ecom%2Fwidgets%2Ftoys%2Ftestgen%2F6199%2F"><img src="http://stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/9/9/6199/25764.jpg" title="Industrialist with teeth" alt="Industrialist with teeth" border="0" |
Furyina
Caldari Broken Cannon
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Posted - 2010.08.05 22:18:00 -
[3]
Thank you very much for your information. This helps a lot. So would you say having 5 Harvester Mining drones and 5 Scout Drones for a High security mining op would be a good route? Have the Harvester Drones mining until rats appear then dock the drones and launch the scout drones, etc. ------------------------------------- [BKCN] Broken Cannon - We are recruiting! |
Jason McCoy
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Posted - 2010.08.05 22:40:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jason McCoy on 05/08/2010 22:40:47 In order for the orca to provide good boost you have to have pertinant skills trained up.
Mining director 5 Mining Foreman 5 Warfare Link Specialist - for gang link bonuses range and cycle time Industrial command will give you more cargo room. Get that mining foreman mindlink. etc etc
Where I am going as is just because you can fly or get into an orca, doesnt mean squat. You wont start providing good boosters until those modules can be used with good skills meaning lvl 4s and 5s to support it all.
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Halborn
Celtic Technologies Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.05 23:32:00 -
[5]
Don't use harvester drones. Use the tech 2 or tech 1 it has double the speed pick a rock that is quite close say 1000m and let them mine that solely. its far more efficient because when they are traveling they are not mining = lower yield per hour. if they travel less you'll get more yield.
And in reference to the orca. as stated above there is no point flying it if you don't have the appropriate skills and implants to bring its full effectiveness. A fully fitted orca can reach around 179k m3 cargo before it needs to empty in a station so yeah it acts like a cargo hold and only needs to dock when its full. if you have a big operation (5 or 6 hulks at one time) then it could mean alot of warping but if you only have a few hulks its very useful. ------------------------------
CEO Celtic Technologies Inc. |
Emporer Norton
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Posted - 2010.08.05 23:46:00 -
[6]
Depends on skills and where mining orca always gets bonus and works in any sec space maxed bonus on orca is around 133 sec cycle rorqual is 119.something at max but only while ind core is active rorqual is easier to move around in 0.0/lowsec but either in lowsec/0.0 would only use in a pos although rorqual has a good tank
Originally by: Furyina Hello Everyone,
Just wondering if the Orca has Refining capabilities and if it does are they worth it? Also, does the Orca typically get rid of the need for haulers?
If there's any other pertinent information about the Orca that you might be able to provide for me, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm about 5 days from finishing my skills to use one and am very excited to start using it in my mining ops, but I'm trying to figure out if it's actually worth the time and money to get one, or if I should go for the Rorqual instead.
Thanks, Fury
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Lexxxii
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Posted - 2010.08.06 11:34:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Halborn Don't use harvester drones. Use the tech 2 or tech 1 it has double the speed pick a rock that is quite close say 1000m and let them mine that solely. its far more efficient because when they are traveling they are not mining = lower yield per hour. if they travel less you'll get more yield.
And in reference to the orca. as stated above there is no point flying it if you don't have the appropriate skills and implants to bring its full effectiveness. A fully fitted orca can reach around 179k m3 cargo before it needs to empty in a station so yeah it acts like a cargo hold and only needs to dock when its full. if you have a big operation (5 or 6 hulks at one time) then it could mean alot of warping but if you only have a few hulks its very useful.
NEVER use harvester drones. They are too slow, and expensive if you lose them, and you will lose one now and again even in hisec.
I have a maxed Hulk pilot and a maxed Orca pilot, both with all the implants. My Orca has a cargo of just under 200k, giving a cycle time of 133s, range 23km.
Both the Hulk & Orca use 5 x T2 mining drones each, recalling one set for Warrior II's to kill rats when they spawn.
Works a treat...
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Nobzy
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Posted - 2010.08.06 11:54:00 -
[8]
Harvester drones will never pay themselves back. Not in 50 years.
Never use them. Just don't.
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NewGit
Caldari Rusty Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.06 15:46:00 -
[9]
Edited by: NewGit on 06/08/2010 15:48:49 Of course you already know that a Rorqual can't be used in hisec, and even in low/null sec, will spend most of it's time sitting in a POS while giving out bonuses to the mining fleet. Which still means you'll still need to haul the ore (probably using an Orca).
I use an Orca on both ore and ice harvesting mining ops, high and null sec, though in null it stays at a POS and warps to the belt just long enough to scoop the ore/ice (while on the move with 9 fingers ready to spam the warp button).
As well, the Orca can haul up to 400k of any kind of ship, while the Rorqual can haul 2.5 times that much, but can only haul Industrial ships. Each has their uses, pluses and minuses. Time and money to get to Orca shouldn't be a concern. You'll need something while going through all that extra training you'll need for the Rorqual, and that won't be cheap either (lots of Jump and Cap skills to look forward to) !
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* If it moves, shoot it. If it doesn't move, mine it. |
Furyina
Caldari Broken Cannon
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Posted - 2010.08.06 22:33:00 -
[10]
Wow, thank you all for the extensive information you have given. I didn't even think to check the cycle time on the harvester drones, and I agree with you on them costing an arm and a leg. ------------------------------------- [BKCN] Broken Cannon - We are recruiting! |
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Furyina
Caldari Broken Cannon
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Posted - 2010.08.06 22:44:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Furyina on 06/08/2010 22:45:30 Ok, so to get this completely straight, the difference between the T2 Mining Drone and the Harvester Mining Drone is:
T2MD - 25 m^3 mining amount HMD - 30 m^3 mining amount
T2MD - 500m/sec HMD - 250m/sec
T2MD - 250-400k ISK HMD - 85mil ISK
Is this it?
Thanks, Fury ------------------------------------- [BKCN] Broken Cannon - We are recruiting! |
Bia Bri
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Posted - 2010.08.07 02:03:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Bia Bri on 07/08/2010 02:04:52
Originally by: Furyina Edited by: Furyina on 06/08/2010 22:45:30 T2MD - 25 m^3 mining amount HMD - 30 m^3 mining amount
T2MD - 500m/sec HMD - 250m/sec
T2MD - 250-400k ISK HMD - 85mil ISK
Yes, you have the raw numbers correct. Some things that should be re-emphasized at this point.
16.7% more ore per minute using harvesters is almost never realized in practical situations because the travel time of drones is nearly always a HUGE factor in their efficiency. Some quick napkin math:
/w drone navigation V harvesters travel at about 313 m/s. Tech 2 travel at roughly 625. This means traveling traveling to a 10 km roid (there and back) will take harvesters about 64 seconds and Tech 2 will take 32 seconds.This means the total 'cycle time' for each drone is: 124 seconds for the harvester. And 92 seconds for the Tech 2. In one hours time: - a harvester will complete 29 cycles with a 16.7% bonus to yield. - a tech 2 will complete 39 cycles with standard yield. At the end of the hour the tech 2 will have collected about 15% more ore than the harvester drone.
The numbers of course change a fair bit depending on the range to the rock, but bottom line tech 2 drones really do put more real ore into your bay unless your hulk is humping the target asteroid (in which case the absolute maximum advantage that harvesters could ever theoretically even give is 16.7%)
Now, let's put that into some perspective. Assume we are mining in a fantasy world where every asteroid is at 0m from our hulk. How long would it take for a harvester drone to pay for itself vs a T2? With max skills with tech 2 rigs and no travel time a harvester takes in 16.3 m^3 more per minute than a tech 2. The numbers work out almost perfect that a tech 2 can just barely pull in 5 units of arkanor at a time while a harvester can just barely pull in 6. At 1 unit of arkanor per minute how long does it take to pay off a harvester mining drone? Arkanor is worth about 4000 per unit. At this rate it takes 21500 units of arkanor to pay for a harvester. 21500 1 minute cycles, just for the record, is nearly 15 DAYS of actual in the belt, drones out, mining.
So, just a summary: In reality, tech 2 drones really DO mine MORE ore / minute than harvesters in most real life situations because the travel time is a HUGE factor. Even in a perfect world of unlimited arkanor asteroids glued to the hull of your hulk, it STILL takes an absolute minimum of 15 days of actual mining just to break even with the cost of them. Harvesters are a smartbombers dream and even the occasional belt rat 'oops' can be rather expensive.
Harvester mining drones belong in a museum, not in a belt.
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Thoraxe Rig
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.10 02:12:00 -
[13]
^ Hit the nail so freaking hard on the head, the hammer broke.
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.10 15:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Furyina Also, does the Orca typically get rid of the need for haulers?
It can, but using a dedicated hauler is still a good idea. It also allows one to fit some tank on the Orca to thwart suicide gankers (I highly recommend using Damage Control II and Reinforced Bulkheads II in the low slots).
If you fit a tractor beam, you lose a gang link, typically the laser range one, because when you use the gang link reduce cycle time you'll want the capacitor gang link to maintain the tank on the Hulks (activating 3x strip II with T2 crystals takes about 67% of a Hulk's capacitor).
Otherwise you can have Hulks drop their ore directly into the corporate hangar, but then they have to remain no more than 2.5 km away (Hulks are too slow to travel much).
A couple of Hulks will fill an Orca fairly quickly. The gang link bonuses will stop when the Orca is in warp, or docked in the station to unload.
Keep in mind the Orca is an Industrial Command Ship. It's primary role is to provide bonuses.
I use Orca + 2x Hulks + Bustard (DST hauler).
Originally by: Furyina If there's any other pertinent information about the Orca that you might be able to provide for me, it would be greatly appreciated.
The Orca is also a good general hauler. Some people even use it to salvage (after turning in a mission, as traveling between gates is extremely painful in an Orca). The corporate hangar cannot be scanned, so it is great for hauling valuables or even contraband.
The Orca is also handy to use as a mobile base for missioning or exploration.
Using 5x Hammerhead II drones is enough to handle anything in hisec, including level 4 mining missions that can have cruisers. Light shield repair drones are handy if you have smaller mining ships in the fleet, like frigates or Retrievers.
Originally by: Furyina I'm about 5 days from finishing my skills to use one and am very excited to start using it in my mining ops, but I'm trying to figure out if it's actually worth the time and money to get one, or if I should go for the Rorqual instead.
Rorqual is a capital ship, and cannot be used in hisec. Typically they remain inside a POS shield providing bonuses and compressing ore, both of which can only be done while sieged with the Industrial Core active.
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Sidrat Flush
Caldari Eve Industrial Corp
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Posted - 2010.08.15 00:48:00 -
[15]
If you want to be an orca pilot realise your task is to manage the fleet. If you're working solo with multiple character(s) it's different of course; but the aim is two fold
i. Provide bonus's to the miners ii. Provide a warp point to the hauler(s)
with a sizeable gang/fleet you're not going to want to manage drones as well as the loot cans being tractor beamed and stacked in to giant secure containers that you have in your hold.
If it's really good you won't have time to read a book while 'mining'.
View The Eve Industrial Organiser Site
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.08.15 11:11:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 15/08/2010 11:12:12 I bought my orca simply to hold prostitutes and wine, one battleship full was just not enough... (bonus points if you realize that the corp hanger cannot be scanned)
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Minerva Moore
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Posted - 2010.08.24 23:13:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Bia Bri
/w drone navigation V harvesters travel at about 313 m/s.
As far as I know Drone Navigation only affects the MWD-speed of drones and since mining drones don't have MWD the skill will not affect their speed at all. So they won't travel at 313, they always travel at 250.
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v00d003
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Posted - 2010.08.26 03:02:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lexxxii
Originally by: Halborn Don't use harvester drones. Use the tech 2 or tech 1 it has double the speed pick a rock that is quite close say 1000m and let them mine that solely. its far more efficient because when they are traveling they are not mining = lower yield per hour. if they travel less you'll get more yield.
And in reference to the orca. as stated above there is no point flying it if you don't have the appropriate skills and implants to bring its full effectiveness. A fully fitted orca can reach around 179k m3 cargo before it needs to empty in a station so yeah it acts like a cargo hold and only needs to dock when its full. if you have a big operation (5 or 6 hulks at one time) then it could mean alot of warping but if you only have a few hulks its very useful.
NEVER use harvester drones. They are too slow, and expensive if you lose them, and you will lose one now and again even in hisec.
I have a maxed Hulk pilot and a maxed Orca pilot, both with all the implants. My Orca has a cargo of just under 200k, giving a cycle time of 133s, range 23km.
Both the Hulk & Orca use 5 x T2 mining drones each, recalling one set for Warrior II's to kill rats when they spawn.
Works a treat...
200k is this even possible?
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.08.26 04:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: v00d003 200k is this even possible?
Cargohold: 100,951 m3 Corporate Hangar: 40,000 m3 Ore Hold: 50,000 m3
Total: 190,951 m3
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Bia Bri
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Posted - 2010.08.26 05:04:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Minerva Moore
Originally by: Bia Bri
/w drone navigation V harvesters travel at about 313 m/s.
As far as I know Drone Navigation only affects the MWD-speed of drones and since mining drones don't have MWD the skill will not affect their speed at all. So they won't travel at 313, they always travel at 250.
This may or may not be the case, I don't honestly know. You may very well be right.
If it is the case then the travel time becomes even MORE of a factor and the range at which T2 drones are better than harvesters gets smaller yet. =D
Thank you for clarifying, though. It's always good to get the right info out in the public.
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Lexxxii
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Posted - 2010.09.01 11:48:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: v00d003 200k is this even possible?
Cargohold: 100,951 m3 Corporate Hangar: 40,000 m3 Ore Hold: 50,000 m3
Total: 190,951 m3
Try that with 2 x T2 & 1 T1 cargo rigs :)
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Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.01 17:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lexxxii
Originally by: Tau Cabalander Cargohold: 100,951 m3 Corporate Hangar: 40,000 m3 Ore Hold: 50,000 m3
Total: 190,951 m3
Try that with 2 x T2 & 1 T1 cargo rigs :)
Umm... ya. That's what it is.
Base cargo: 30,000 m3 Industrial Command Ships: 5% per level Cargohold Optimization II: 20% Cargohold Optimization I: 15% Expanded Cargohold II: 27.5%
30,000 * (1 + 5 * 0.05) * 1.20^2 * 1.15 * 1.275^2 = 100,951.31 m3
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.09.01 22:46:00 -
[23]
I recently discovered the alpha - omega line of implants only available from ORE (outer ring excavations) corp through the loyalty point store. This implant does nothing in and of itself, but when used in conjunction with other Harvest implants it will boost their effect.
O.R.E is located in only TWO systems in nullsec, so good luck trying to run missions unless you are blue to everyone in local.
The set of implants however gives some incredible boosts due to the fact that each implant boosts the effectivness of others.
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Xessej
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Posted - 2010.09.01 23:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: cyndrogen I recently discovered the alpha - omega line of implants only available from ORE (outer ring excavations) corp through the loyalty point store. This implant does nothing in and of itself, but when used in conjunction with other Harvest implants it will boost their effect.
O.R.E is located in only TWO systems in nullsec, so good luck trying to run missions unless you are blue to everyone in local.
The set of implants however gives some incredible boosts due to the fact that each implant boosts the effectivness of others.
Actually all the harvest implants do is increase the range of mining lasers. The ORE lp store is one of the worst lp stores. The only reason to go out to the ORE stations is to buy mining barge and related BPO's that are not otherwise available.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.09.07 20:13:00 -
[25]
True, if you're too lazy to move while mining I guess the implants are useful. Probably better off flying an orca alt anyway.
Which BPO's are available at the ORE station?
Originally by: Xessej
Actually all the harvest implants do is increase the range of mining lasers. The ORE lp store is one of the worst lp stores. The only reason to go out to the ORE stations is to buy mining barge and related BPO's that are not otherwise available.
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Xessej
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Posted - 2010.09.08 00:12:00 -
[26]
The 3 mining barges and the mining gang links.
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