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00miner
Caldari Regante
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Posted - 2010.08.12 07:28:00 -
[1]
I have recently been crunching numbers... is there any sensible reason to tank armour over shields, I just don't see why you should but it seems to be the norm to do so...
Confused explain plz
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Brannor McThife
Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients
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Posted - 2010.08.12 07:42:00 -
[2]
EWAR. Allmost all of it requires mid slots where shield tanking would go.
-G
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Penjual Sayur
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Posted - 2010.08.12 07:56:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Penjual Sayur on 12/08/2010 07:56:36 Dont forget it's easier to fit an Armor RR then a shield one, without any fitting mods involved.
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Thallidus
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Posted - 2010.08.12 10:06:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Brannor McThife EWAR. Allmost all of it requires mid slots where shield tanking would go.
-G
I'm going to assume you're including tackle in EWAR, so I'll just add propulsion mods to the "takes up midslots" list.
Fleets tend to be armor tanked because both the really small (tackle) and really big (supercaps) tend to function better armor tanked.
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Shitzen Giggles
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Posted - 2010.08.12 10:13:00 -
[5]
How about?
Slot layout (depending on ship) Not wanting a ballooned up sig radius Ship bonus's (i.e. armour repair amount bonus or armor resist bonus)
It really depends on the ship, situation and what role you're trying to fill.
For missions I would say that shield tanking usually has it better, however there are exceptions there as well so....
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.12 10:22:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Brannor McThife EWAR. Allmost all of it requires mid slots where shield tanking would go.
-G
Damage mods and nanofibers. They require low slots where armor tanking would go. -----------
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Brannor McThife
Caldari Brotherhood of the Ancients
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Posted - 2010.08.12 11:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Damage mods and nanofibers. They require low slots where armor tanking would go.[/quote
If you can stop them shooting or moving, you don't need a tank. :)
But yes, it's the toss up between damage (tracking mods / ballistic mods) and armor tank.
Which is why you really have to choose what you want to do and stick with it... trying to do everything gets you killed. Like fitting shield tank and EWAR on Caldari recons... safer to just stop them shooting you, period.
With faster ships, armour tanking sacrifices speed and often gives higher sig...
Always the dilemma, 6 of the one, and half a dozen of the other...
-G
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1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.08.12 11:30:00 -
[8]
shield tank is better for sub-BS ship size because it allows to keep a better agility/speed than armor. armor tank is usually better for big ships because 1600 plates allow more raw HP than LSE and armor RR is the way to go for big ships
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Rab See
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.12 11:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Penjual Sayur Edited by: Penjual Sayur on 12/08/2010 07:56:36 Dont forget it's easier to fit an Armor RR then a shield one, without any fitting mods involved.
And there are no shield assisting RR rigs ... generally - its all pants for shield RR. . . 8/ everyone |
1600 RT
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Posted - 2010.08.12 11:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Rab See
Originally by: Penjual Sayur Edited by: Penjual Sayur on 12/08/2010 07:56:36 Dont forget it's easier to fit an Armor RR then a shield one, without any fitting mods involved.
And there are no shield assisting RR rigs ... generally - its all pants for shield RR.
i still have to see a non fail fit that use armor RR rig
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Concubinia Scarlett
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Posted - 2010.08.12 12:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Brannor McThife EWAR. Allmost all of it requires mid slots where shield tanking would go.
-G
Damage mods and nanofibers. They require low slots where armor tanking would go.
Its almost like it was intentionaly balanced that way...
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Frozean
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Posted - 2010.08.12 14:43:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Frozean on 12/08/2010 14:44:04 Large shield transfer can fit in cruiser sized hulls, While armor rep can't. Armor rep can easily replace a weapon slot, or a capacitor booster , or a MWD. While large shield tranfer eats tons of cpu. So which "easy-to-fit" do u want?, ever seen drakes with large shield transfers? u wont break their tanks.
Shield tank is more agile then armor tanks. Armor tank has smaller sig rad then shield tank. All the sig rad in the world(or lack of it) wont save you if you are webbed. keep that in mind. prevention = best cure, life is speed, speed is life. And so is minmatar.
Shield tank has better resist from invuls then eanms, however Armor tank gets better buffer from plates then from LSE's. so u wanna solo pvp? buffer up! u wanna get more out of your logistics? then get more resists!
Shield transfers and shield boosters generate shield at the start of the cycle. Armor at the end. Will this 3-5 seconds be important? You might be able to get away with less buffer!
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Khors
Amtek Inc
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Posted - 2010.08.12 15:02:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Khors on 12/08/2010 15:02:31
Originally by: Frozean
Armor rep can easily replace a weapon slot, or a capacitor booster , or a MWD.
There is no armor mods that goes in medslots.
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Frozean
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Posted - 2010.08.12 15:08:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Frozean on 12/08/2010 15:09:44
-1 cap booster/MWD +1 sensor booster/tracking comp/LSE/stasis/point/tp +1 remote repair module.
Use your imagination. Take away cap booster/MWD u get grid for an RR. Take away 3-4 CPU mods/launchers/turrets then you get the cpu for a shield transfer
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Aranial
Gallente Empyrean Warriors Lux Caelestia
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Posted - 2010.08.12 16:30:00 -
[15]
Armour tanking also gives higher overall resists (without mods fitted obviously).
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Smabs
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Posted - 2010.08.12 16:43:00 -
[16]
The answer is that it completely depends on the ship, its bonuses and the slot layout. Some ships are most effective with a shield tank (like a drake or jaguar), whereas others are best with armor (like an ishkur or geddon).
Also some ships can be fit effectively with either type of tank. A hurricane is a good example of that.
So basically it just depends.
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gai luron
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Posted - 2010.08.12 17:38:00 -
[17]
Another question about tank generalities: in which pvp situations is an active tank better than buffer/passive ? (local tank no RR)
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Rae Kharra
Dark Storms INC Fear Th3 Vampires
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Posted - 2010.08.12 17:57:00 -
[18]
It all comes down to RR tanking and the ease of fitting Arm RR vs Shield a Geddon tier1 BS can easily fit a Large RR while a Raven struggles to do so and nt gimp its fit buy adding CPU upgrades.
This means that since 3 out of 4 races can Arm tank and RR arm is ezer to fit its a simple choice that has swayed the entire game of eve.
I read somewhere before when you take into account all the fitting reqs and factors into account Arm RR is 3x as ez to fit as Shield Transfer.
A large RR Arm module is 48 CPU and 660 powergrid on a ship with 600 cpu and 20,000 fitting room
A Large Shield Transfer is 154 CPU 192 Pwr on a 875 CPU and 11,800 pwr
This means the Armor uses 1/30th its powergrid, which for guns and armor is primary stat. 1/30thish to fit a RR. While the Raven uses 1/8th its CPU which is primary to fit a shield tanker/missile
All the while Im comparing the Tier 1 of Armor and tier 2 of Shield....So you can see how out of whack it is compared to each other. People argue its because shield recharge etc etc but in reality its not close at all. Now when you get down to Carrier effec and Logi its neck and neck, its why in the tourney you see so many Shield and Arm setups because RR spyder tanking isnt as good as full blown gank setups that depend on Logi.
TL DR ARM is 3x as ez to fit on your average ship than shield RR so ships like Minni that would be shield or even ships like Domi that could have nice shield buffers cant spare the fitting so they go armor.
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RentableMuffin
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Posted - 2010.08.12 18:01:00 -
[19]
because of guardian!
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Sigras
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Posted - 2010.08.12 18:10:00 -
[20]
In my experience, it seems that shield buffers are FOTM for anything < battleships because it allows for greater speed and more gank and as we all know speed + gank = spank
Since battleships are so slow anyway, they are usually armor buffered to take advantage of max buffer and mid-slots. Notable exceptions are sniping battleships, the maelstrom, and the Hyperion (even though it gets an armor tanking bonus)
Active tanks are generally considered fail except the slepnir and maelstrom iirc
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gai luron
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Posted - 2010.08.12 18:25:00 -
[21]
Ok, thanks for your help.
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Jita Feed
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Posted - 2010.08.12 18:50:00 -
[22]
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Altaica Amur
The Elliance
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Posted - 2010.08.12 19:19:00 -
[23]
Quote: Fleets tend to be armor tanked because both the really small (tackle) and really big (supercaps) tend to function better armor tanked.
Wait, what?? Sure a lot of ships prefer armor, particularly battleships but tackle and capitals aren't really it, tackle needs to go fast and armor hurts that and on the capital scale shields operate more efficiently due to how totallyfreakinghuge the capital shield rep is, chews through more cap then a dual armor rep and, proportionally, more raw hp which plays well with the full tank or nearly full tank setups that tend to be on capitals, carriers in particular.
Comparison 1 capital shield rep vs 2 capital armor reps, this is the raw module no skills applied.
Armor 640 hp/s 160 cap/s delivered at the end of a 30 second cycle
Shield 720 hp/s 240 cap/s delivered at the beginning of a 10 second cycle
Also more detailed explanation on why small and fast ships won't like armor as much is besides the reduction in speed incurred by carrying heavy armor plates around and interfering with your speed mods the small buffers offered by such ships will mean that the delays in receiving reps will leave a lot of more fragile ships dead.
Battleships though, are another story, and with the popularity of the RR BS this has spread to create a general perception of armor > shields, this has been clawed back a bit by the sniperhac gang. Back to the battleships though with the most popular fleet ships being the megathron, apocalypse and tempest all either being very clearly armor tanks or in the tempest's case one that can go either way. Since RR BS gangs work best when everyone's using the same tank this makes the default option armor for major fleets.
Finally the issues with large shield transfers taking such large amounts of CPU on a BS relative to the PG requirements of an armor transfer makes it harder for non-caldari ships to consider going for shields which reinforced with the fact that the only sniper fleet ship the Caldari has has 8 turrets and desperately needs every bit of DPS it can muster, unlike the apoc which can go Tachyon with 7 turrets and still deal decent DPS.
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Von Kroll
Caldari m3 Corp R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.08.12 20:06:00 -
[24]
Ravens and Scorpions have no trouble fitting shield RR. Its just that no other ships in the game can easily fit Shield RR. So, theoretically, if the RR fleet is only Ravens and Scorps, there's no problem. No one does it, but its possible.
And that "Armor RR is 3 times easier to fit than Shield RR" is a false argument. Fit the ships in their normal PvP fit (a la Torp Raven) and then see how the ships compare. The Torp Raven works merely by swapping a single low slot out for a single CPU upgrade and you can fit a large shield RR easily. The Scorpion is even easier--that thing has grid and CPU to spare for just about anything.
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Marcus Henik
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Posted - 2010.08.12 21:49:00 -
[25]
there is a samll argument for setting up scorps for rring each other as part of uber range e-war team. being able to rep eachother with out pulling the guardiansaway from the main fleet is a good thing IMO.
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