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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Harry Farina
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:39:00 -
[61]
quote]I repeat: you don't have 1.8M SP ù or rather, the fact that you have 1,8M SP has nothing to do with the problem at hand. What you do have is a bunch of skills. Are they relevant to the test at hand? Is my experience relevant to the test at hand? What is it you want to compare, and against what?
come to jita with your fresh toon and beat me with experience then.
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Snowmann
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:39:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Harry Farina
Qoute the whole phrase or dont quote. Your just trying to make yourself feel intelligent.
It seems that you are upset and are unwilling to see more experienced players point of view.
You will never win an argument on the forums until you have more experience in the game.
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Harry Farina
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:41:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Snowmann
Originally by: Harry Farina
Qoute the whole phrase or dont quote. Your just trying to make yourself feel intelligent.
It seems that you are upset and are unwilling to see more experienced players point of view.
You will never win an argument on the forums until you have more experience in the game.
Tippia can start a new toon and I'll fight him/her in my rifter. We'll see how far experience goes.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:43:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Harry Farina come to jita with your fresh toon and beat me with experience then.
Ok. The test is: who can get to 100Mil ISK first. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Snowmann
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:43:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Harry Farina
Tippia can start a new toon and I'll fight him/her in my rifter. We'll see how far experience goes.
Not worth their time, to try to help a new player that already doesn't listen.
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Harry Farina
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:44:00 -
[66]
Backing out of the real test are you.
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Sarton Wells
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:45:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Sarton Wells on 14/08/2010 09:45:12 Ok why don't you check this video - two days old toons doing pvp
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Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:46:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Tippia the last time we went down this road, you apparently didn't want to consider what lvl IV's did, and how little you gained by going for lvl Và
If that's all you remembered, sure go ahead.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:46:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Tippia on 14/08/2010 09:47:22
Originally by: Harry Farina Backing out of the real test are you.
No. You wanted to test your SP against my experience. You didn't want to answer the questions I asked, so I couldn't provide a test that was more fair and had to figure one where my experience matters.
You see, you're still missing the key point of contextuality and relevanceà
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Originally by: Tippia the last time we went down this road, you apparently didn't want to consider what lvl IV's did, and how little you gained by going for lvl Và
If that's all you remembered, sure go ahead.
You never answered. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Jita Alt666
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:46:00 -
[70]
What are you doing to Pedi? Your not helping him. Your crippling him for life. Do you think real world out there is gonna lift a finger to help a young black man? Your crippling them.
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Harry Farina
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:46:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Snowmann
Originally by: Harry Farina
Tippia can start a new toon and I'll fight him/her in my rifter. We'll see how far experience goes.
Not worth their time, to try to help a new player that already doesn't listen.
Should be easy enough and if I lose I'm proven wrong.
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Snowmann
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:49:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Snowmann on 14/08/2010 09:49:29 nm
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:50:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Harry Farina Daisuke all I can say is I have been training frigate skills since I started him. But someone else thats been training frigate skills for two months has an advantage regardless of skill. There isn't much skill involved in this game. The biggest skill is your fitting and anyone can look on battleclinic and find a good one. It all comes down to skillpoints.
It just SEEMS that way at the start.
But each ship only has a limited number of skills that could possibly affect it, and each of those skills are capped at L5. Not just that, but at L4 (which takes just 20% of the time it takes to train L5) you get 80% of the efficiency (on average), so you get very close to the best you could possibly be in a very short amount of time.
On top of it all, extra ships almost always beat extra skillpoints. Imagine a fleet with 30 people that only have L4 skills (plus some prerequisites at L5) fighting against a fleet of 10 people that have all L5 skills. The 30 will usually completely wipe the floor with the 10, even if total SP is STILL higher for those 10 others.
All in all, that means new players DO have quite a few chances to fare well... it just won't be overnight. Oh, and older players (with huge SP totals) have another big DISadvantage : their medical clones cost a TRUCKLOAD of ISK more than newbie clones, so even if they PvP in a former jumpclone with no implants and in cheap-ass ships, they still stand to lose quite a lot of ISK if they want to keep all their SP. A newer player with heavily focused SP has no such problems - the clone cost is negligible.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Harry Farina
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Posted - 2010.08.14 09:57:00 -
[74]
whatever i'm done and i'm out
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Jita Alt666
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:00:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Harry Farina Daisuke all I can say is I have been training frigate skills since I started him. But someone else thats been training frigate skills for two months has an advantage regardless of skill. There isn't much skill involved in this game. The biggest skill is your fitting and anyone can look on battleclinic and find a good one. It all comes down to skillpoints.
It just SEEMS that way at the start.
But each ship only has a limited number of skills that could possibly affect it, and each of those skills are capped at L5. Not just that, but at L4 (which takes just 20% of the time it takes to train L5) you get 80% of the efficiency (on average), so you get very close to the best you could possibly be in a very short amount of time.
On top of it all, extra ships almost always beat extra skillpoints. Imagine a fleet with 30 people that only have L4 skills (plus some prerequisites at L5) fighting against a fleet of 10 people that have all L5 skills. The 30 will usually completely wipe the floor with the 10, even if total SP is STILL higher for those 10 others.
All in all, that means new players DO have quite a few chances to fare well... it just won't be overnight. Oh, and older players (with huge SP totals) have another big DISadvantage : their medical clones cost a TRUCKLOAD of ISK more than newbie clones, so even if they PvP in a former jumpclone with no implants and in cheap-ass ships, they still stand to lose quite a lot of ISK if they want to keep all their SP. A newer player with heavily focused SP has no such problems - the clone cost is negligible.
The point about older players using clones is an important sp neutraliser. On my main each time Im podded it costs me 13mil to get my clone in order. If im in a small gang hurricane with 2-3 others and a group of 20 new guys in frigates jump the gate - I'll be able to kill 6-8 of them but if they focus fire on me, my individual lose will be higher than their combined. If they hold the field and loot the wrecks they will profit from the fight.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:02:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Akita T on 14/08/2010 10:06:12
Originally by: Harry Farina whatever i'm done and i'm out
Good riddance then. In the long run whiny crybabies hurt the game more than the extra sub money could ever help.
ALL OF US WERE NEWBIES ONCE TOO, but we stuck around... and older players quit all the time, or sell their characters for ISK. IF YOU CARE ABOUT SP SO MUCH WHY DON'T YOU JUST BUY A HIGH-SP CHARACTER ?!? I'll tell you what will happen then - a gang of relatively fresh pilots will just whoop your ass anyway, and then you'll cry THAT is unfair somehow.
P.S. And if you would choose to just cry that new players have no chance to make ISK, I would have no choice but to go /facepalm.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Proclus Diadochu
Varion Galactic OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:10:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Harry Farina
Originally by: Sarton Wells
Originally by: Harry Farina I hear what your saying but I just can't live with it. That guy thats been playing longer than me will still be better than me simply because of time. Thats the biggest reason I'm done, I can't ever catch up.
Wait so you want to play a game where you can be better than a person who's played longer than you? Well that's simply impossible! Even if it's not an rpg (so you won't have any skill lag) a person who's played longer than you WILL be better than you. Unless you're some kind of super genius in which case you wouldn't have made such a thread.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. I dont want someone to be better than me because they have sat and trained skills. I know thats not the point your trying to make but you did it anyhow. This game all comes down to sp and I don't want to wait for it. If I lose a fight I want it to be because they were a better player than me not because they had more skillpoints. But thats just not the way it works in this game.
Harry,
When I first began EvE in 2007, I believed the same thing at first. I couldn't understand how it would be possible to offset the skill point hierarchy. After I began PvP, I learned that skills come into play, but more importantly, fleet composition, ship setup, PvP practice, and tactics make or break the fight. I have seen a pair of 6 month old drake pilots with a ceptor take down a 4 year old geddon pilot. Granted if the geddon pilot was an experienced PvP pilot, or his setup was poor, but the point was that he lost to three players that would have been coined as "newbs".
My recommendation would be for you to find a decent highsec, faction warfare, lowsec pirating, 0.0 corp or alliance and get in some fleets. Whether you are NC, SC, Chribba's Alliance, small corp to larger corps; EvE offers a way for you to get in on the action. The key for you is to find a core group of guys and get the hang of PvP, then after a while go solo some people. Lose some ships and practice, then after a while you'll get the hang of something that works for you. You have options.
Regard/
Proclus Diadochu RUKE Coordinator Varion Galactic OWN Alliance, NC
EDIT: All else fails, blob warfare works...
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Jita Alt666
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:15:00 -
[78]
Signing your posts. Way to Go!
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Shawna Gray
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:18:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Harry Farina whatever i'm done and i'm out
Oh noes please come back.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:20:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Harry Farina
Originally by: Skydell At the risk of assuming I am guessing you lost a ship you took what seems like a long time and alot of work to get.
Sorry.
No, CCp wont help you get it back. No, they wont pretend like they give a ****. If up to that point you were having fun, take note of the mistake and dont make it again.
Assuming I am right, what did you lose?
You assume wrong. This game just isnt made for new players. Thats really all there is to it. If you started from day one your golden otherwis good luck.
I started 3.5 years after day one. I've done OK. What's your excuse?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
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Jita Alt666
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Posted - 2010.08.14 10:28:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Harry Farina whatever i'm done and i'm out
Quiters never Win and Winners Never Quit.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:02:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Harry Farina And I bid you farewell
And if you have something negative to say to me then **** you.
Well......bye |
Jennifer Fenring
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:23:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Jennifer Fenring on 14/08/2010 11:26:28 ------------ The fact that a group of younger players can beat an old one, that you can specialize against certain challenges and that a lot of you didn't quit doesn't mean the game is "newbie friendly".
Things like the very limited tutorials that don't prepare you for learning skills, highsec wardeccing, canflipping, standings loss that cause KOS in other highsec areas (to name a few) aren't what I'd call things that will get EVE the "newb friendly game of the year award" and I can imagine that the drawbacks that those issues can bring can severely discourage people.
Fortunately I'm quite a forum dweller and wiki reader so I hardly ever encountered problems in those areas but I can imagine it can be very tough for people who invest less time in the game and expect just playing the game should be enough to get through in a relatively unscratched way.
Perhaps it¦s because it¦s my job to facilitate processes so things are as transparent and user friendly as possible without unneccessary nonsense but imo EVE definitely isn't very newb friendly.
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Sarton Wells
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:31:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring
Things like the very limited tutorials that don't prepare you for learning skills, highsec wardeccing, canflipping, standings loss that cause KOS in other highsec areas (to name a few) aren't what I'd call things that will get EVE the "newb friendly game of the year award" and I can imagine that the drawbacks that those issues can bring can severely discourage people.
Then why didn't I as a new player have no problems with these things? It's because like you I read the forums and wiki. And anyone can do it as well. Whether all of this info was added through in-game tutorials it wouldn't change much. If a player doesn't want to read a lot he won't succeed in this game.
Have you been to the rookie channels recently? Even those simple tutorials are too much for many players. They can't finish even those without asking for help. That's not because the tutorials are tough. They just don't bother reading them. So how can you expect them to read even more complex strategies if they were presented as tutorials?
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Angry Defiler
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:42:00 -
[85]
Hi Harry,
I'm not sure if you're genuinely disappointed by the fact that veterans will always have more SP than you or if you're simply trolling.
But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt to clarify that the skill system is NOT designed to accommodate older players. They don't always have the edge over you. The only edge veterans have over you is they can specialize in various aspects of the game with a single character.
That isn't to say you still need to spend a little time training the basic stuff like learning skills, fitting skills and all that, but eventually with specialized training you can catch up to an older player no problem. Sure, the older player can PVP, mine, invent, and do all these crazy things on a single character - but what edge does he have over you at any single of these things? Nothing a little specialized training can't catch up to.
Good luck, and I sincerely hope something like the training system doesn't deter you from the game.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:44:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Jennifer Fenring The fact that a group of younger players can beat an old one, that you can specialize against certain challenges and that a lot of you didn't quit doesn't mean the game is "newbie friendly".
There's a HUGE difference between "not newbie friendly", "hard learning curve" and "new people don't stand a chance, CCP hates new people".
First off, the game is not friendly, period. Not to newbies, not to vets, not to ANYBODY.
Second, it takes more time to properly learn enough stuff yourself (the player controlling the pilot) as opposed to just having your pilot avatar get the necessary SP to use something to full extent. There can be no question that given an identical character and identical funding, a relatively new EVE player will get obliterated by a seasoned EVE veteran.
Finally, over the years, CCP has constantly improved the "new player experience" and made it easier and easier for newer pilots to get ahead, BOTH in adding new tutorials, career agents and even a gorram wiki AND actually making the early game easier on a regular basis, be it directly or indirectly (latest noteworthy changes with those effects - sized rigs, the attribute remap system, the double-speed-bonus-below-1.6milSP, to name just a few).
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Cyber Duck
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:48:00 -
[87]
09 player checking in...
THERE'S AN '03 PLAYER In SySTEM! CRAP! GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE! anyone older than 4 years on this game is:
INDESTRUCTIBLE!
they can out tank, out dps, out buy, out fly, EVERYONE IN THE GAME THAT'S YOUNGER THAN THEM!
no matter WHAT fitting they have.
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Sarton Wells
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:48:00 -
[88]
Oh and btw adding tutorials that cover more aspects of the eve gameplay will be of course a good thing and I hope CCP does it. I very much doubt however that there is any way (short of dumbing the entire gameplay down) of making the game more "newb friendly".
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.08.14 11:52:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Ressiv on 14/08/2010 11:56:54
Originally by: Harry Farina
You assume wrong. This game just isnt made for new players. Thats really all there is to it. If you started from day one your golden otherwis good luck.
I would grant you that the first 2 months kinda suck for new players, having to train the learning skills to not offset your training past the training bonus.
Other then that, you are soooooo wrong! This game is not about leveling. It's about skill. Not the ones you select and wait for, the ones involving your grey matter.
In this game, the battle is lost or won, before you undock. Knowing what to fly, when to fly it, how to fly it and where to fly it is equaly if not more important then having the eve-skills to fly it.
And yes, EVE is not kind to people not investing in learning how the game works. Thats why we like it... people that are good in EVE, realy ARE good and that has NOTHING to do with total SP.
Save some ISK, join Agony Unleashed PVP classes and experience what I mean.
========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Bhattran
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Posted - 2010.08.14 12:35:00 -
[90]
Posting to confirm I didn't start at the beginning or anywhere near it and while not 'golden' I'm doing fine and or well depending on your definitions of said words.
New players are valued by CCP but only for a short time, the worse part is that older players the 'golden' ones and any silver/bronze are valued even less by CCP. -------------------------------------------------------------- The 5 minute forum time delay was a crime against humanity that CCP took forever to address. |
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