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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.02 13:25:00 -
[631]
Originally by: souhyeahright What you're saying is that autocannons are good to fit if you like flying terrible low DPS, high tank ships that are pretty useless no matter what weapons you stick on them. Holy f***, bring forth the nerfbat!
Did you just call my lovely Punisher useless?
For the Amarr tank hulls there are quite a few reasons to use autos. - No cap, means neuting and active tanking can be done with clever cycle management. - Stupidly low fittings, allows pretty much anything you want to fit other than the guns. - High damage, due to damage type they are only really surpassed by blasters when it comes to actual applied damage.
So you see, with no damage bonus lasers are really not a good choice. Same can be seen in autos being frequently used a range of Gallente ships - even the Caldari Moa can benefit from autos over blasters for Goddess' sake!
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.02 13:29:00 -
[632]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
So you see, with no damage bonus lasers are really not a good choice. Same can be seen in autos being frequently used a range of Gallente ships - even the Caldari Moa can benefit from autos over blasters for Goddess' sake!
Says more about hybrids than projectiles tbh.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.09.02 13:30:00 -
[633]
So, people will fit non-cap weapons if their cap is otherwise engaged. People will also fit pulse lasers to myrmidons, and, this should not be a good plan but apparently it is, Incursusses if they want to use scorch.
If you have a single 5% bonus to a gun, it is not that much bonussed, you can fore go it. (see domi, vexor and ishtar)
The prophecy, maller and punisher have their bonus on cap use, not damage. If you can't spare the (reduced) cap because you focus on tank, it might be wise to use guns that don't use it. Damage, but especially engagement envelope will suffer though.
Cross-fitting is interesting, and in my opinion there should be more ships like the myrmidon, that have their bonusses tied up in things other than gun bonus and thus allow for a wide variety of fittings. ------------------------------------- I like to fly around and shoot stuff.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.09.02 13:45:00 -
[634]
Originally by: Liang Nuren ...
So, we have caldari ships fitting projectiles, we have amarr ships fitting projectiles, we have gallente ships fitting projectiles, but we have no minmatar ships fitting lasers or hybrids.
And "it says more about hybrids than projectiles."
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.02 13:48:00 -
[635]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 02/09/2010 13:49:07
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
So, we have caldari ships fitting projectiles, we have amarr ships fitting projectiles, we have gallente ships fitting projectiles, but we have no minmatar ships fitting lasers or hybrids.
And "it says more about hybrids than projectiles."
Actually, we have: - Gallente ships with no real gun bonuses fitting lasers - Gallente ships with no real gun bonuses fitting projectiles - Caldari ships with no real gun bonuses fitting lasers - Caldari ships with no real gun bonuses fitting projectiles - Amarr ships with no real gun bonuses fitting blasters - Amarr ships with no real gun bonuses fitting projectiles
So yes, it says more about hybrids than projectiles.
-Liang
Ed: And Minmatar ships without real gun bonuses simply don't get flown. By anyone. Ever. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.09.02 14:15:00 -
[636]
it's just annoying to see every damn minnie boat have proj bonuses like RoF or damage, while pretty much all blasterboats get is stupid falloff bonus (1km YEY) yes, there are boats with damage bonus to blastors, but minnie boats have it so much better its not even fun
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.02 14:21:00 -
[637]
Originally by: Akisawa it's just annoying to see every damn minnie boat have proj bonuses like RoF or damage, while pretty much all blasterboats get is stupid falloff bonus (1km YEY) yes, there are boats with damage bonus to blastors, but minnie boats have it so much better its not even fun
While nobody that I know of disagrees that hybrid ships are "broken", it's funny that you think Minmatar ships are your primary competition for damage dealer when Amarr ships are so much better at it.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.09.02 14:26:00 -
[638]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Akisawa it's just annoying to see every damn minnie boat have proj bonuses like RoF or damage, while pretty much all blasterboats get is stupid falloff bonus (1km YEY) yes, there are boats with damage bonus to blastors, but minnie boats have it so much better its not even fun
While nobody that I know of disagrees that hybrid ships are "broken", it's funny that you think Minmatar ships are your primary competition for damage dealer when Amarr ships are so much better at it.
-Liang
amarr ships are fine as they are, its the instareload lazors which make them so shiny and so adaptable =) i don't see much fits with cross-gun lazors being fit, but i see at least 1 fit every day with cross-fitted projectile =)
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.09.02 14:30:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: souhyeahright What you're saying is that autocannons are good to fit if you like flying terrible low DPS, high tank ships that are pretty useless no matter what weapons you stick on them. Holy f***, bring forth the nerfbat!
Did you just call my lovely Punisher useless?
For the Amarr tank hulls there are quite a few reasons to use autos. - No cap, means neuting and active tanking can be done with clever cycle management. - Stupidly low fittings, allows pretty much anything you want to fit other than the guns. - High damage, due to damage type they are only really surpassed by blasters when it comes to actual applied damage.
So you see, with no damage bonus lasers are really not a good choice. Same can be seen in autos being frequently used a range of Gallente ships - even the Caldari Moa can benefit from autos over blasters for Goddess' sake!
So in short ACs are just OP.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.02 14:32:00 -
[640]
Originally by: Akisawa
amarr ships are fine as they are, its the instareload lazors which make them so shiny and so adaptable =) i don't see much fits with cross-gun lazors being fit, but i see at least 1 fit every day with cross-fitted projectile =)
Yes, sacrificing 5% damage for 500% range is perfectly acceptable.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Zilberfrid
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Posted - 2010.09.02 14:32:00 -
[641]
In short AC's are a good choice when fitting weapons halfheartedly, if you don't want to commit to cap or grid, there is a system to console you. ------------------------------------- I like to fly around and shoot stuff.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.09.02 14:51:00 -
[642]
Originally by: Liang Nuren ...
In short - if you have no real gun bonuses on your ship, it automatically means, your racial weapon system is broken - if its hybrids.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.02 14:59:00 -
[643]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
In short - if you have no real gun bonuses on your ship, it automatically means, your racial weapon system is broken - if its hybrids.
That is not an implication of what I said. :)
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.02 16:25:00 -
[644]
Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, we have:...
I have not seen a Blaster-Amarr since the MWD-kill scramblers were introduced. There was a short period where lasers actually made it back on the tank hulls but it's all autos now
Originally by: Akisawa amarr ships are fine as they are, its the instareload lazors which make them so shiny and so adaptable =)...
Nope. The one redeeming factor of lasers is T2 long range pulse ammunition, commonly referred to as Scorch. If that crystal didn't exist lasers would be absolute crap, worse even than hybrids (how is that for bold statement!)
Originally by: Naomi Knight So in short ACs are just OP.
I would never be so crude, I enjoy spewing garbage while making my points but you'll hear no arguments from me
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Captain Merkin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 16:28:00 -
[645]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, we have:...
I have not seen a Blaster-Amarr since the MWD-kill scramblers were introduced. There was a short period where lasers actually made it back on the tank hulls but it's all autos now
Originally by: Akisawa amarr ships are fine as they are, its the instareload lazors which make them so shiny and so adaptable =)...
Nope. The one redeeming factor of lasers is T2 long range pulse ammunition, commonly referred to as Scorch. If that crystal didn't exist lasers would be absolute crap, worse even than hybrids (how is that for bold statement!)
Originally by: Naomi Knight So in short ACs are just OP.
I would never be so crude, I enjoy spewing garbage while making my points but you'll hear no arguments from me
I disagree about scorch being the only thing lasers have going for them.
Their dps and tracking is very nice when using other crystals if you ask me.
Scorch is very nice however, as is barrage Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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omgfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.09.02 16:48:00 -
[646]
Originally by: Captain Merkin
Their dps and tracking is very nice when using other crystals if you ask me.
Worst in class, and worst in class, respectively?
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Captain Merkin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 16:54:00 -
[647]
Originally by: omgfreemoniez
Originally by: Captain Merkin
Their dps and tracking is very nice when using other crystals if you ask me.
Worst in class, and worst in class, respectively?
Great well at least if thats the case no one is going to moan about hybrids from now on!
super, problem solved... lasers just got worse Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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G'niluah Ch'tib
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Posted - 2010.09.02 17:18:00 -
[648]
Edited by: G''niluah Ch''tib on 02/09/2010 17:20:43 Hurricane really needs to be hit with the nerfbat. I checked Battleclinic and found ******ed kills like this:
Two Hurricanes versus four Drakes and one Myrmidon
Hurricane versus Tengu and Wolf
Hurricane versus two HAM drakes (Same pilot as above, a solo Cane should not be able to kill two PvP Ham drakes, balancing is totally out of the window)
Hurricane versus a gang and killing enough before dying to even out ISK loss A solo ship should not be able to actually be able to take on a gang!
There's so much more - I just picked out recent Killmails. CCP should take a long hard look at the Hurricane. It's in the same OP status as the Dramiel.
In my opinion the ROF bonus of the Hurricane should be removed, make it a speed bonus instead but cut base speed of the Hurricane by 25%. End result would be same speed with BC lvl 5 and less damage.
edit: Enjoy your OP ship as long as you can - ask yourself why you're not flying the Brutix instead of the Hurricane and then you have your answer.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.02 17:19:00 -
[649]
Originally by: Captain Merkin Great well at least if thats the case no one is going to moan about hybrids from now on!
The tracking/range ratio puts lasers above blasters. Blasters track a smidgen better but at 1/4 the range .. with that kind of range deficit the tracking needs to be significantly higher for them to be in running.
So alas, hybrid moans will continue. At least they have an actual cause with relatively clear problems that needs attending
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 18:02:00 -
[650]
Originally by: G'niluah Ch'tib
Hurricane really needs to be hit with the nerfbat. I checked Battleclinic and found ******ed kills like this:
Two Hurricanes versus four Drakes and one Myrmidon
Hurricane versus Tengu and Wolf
Hurricane versus two HAM drakes (Same pilot as above, a solo Cane should not be able to kill two PvP Ham drakes, balancing is totally out of the window)
Hurricane versus a gang and killing enough before dying to even out ISK loss A solo ship should not be able to actually be able to take on a gang!
There's so much more - I just picked out recent Killmails. CCP should take a long hard look at the Hurricane. It's in the same OP status as the Dramiel.
I suggest you go back to Page 19 and re-read why killmails are completely devoid of context.
Also, the idea that laser DPS and tracking is awful makes me laugh. This forum was littered with detailed evidence to the contrary a year ago and nothing has changed about them since.
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.09.02 18:08:00 -
[651]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: G'niluah Ch'tib
Hurricane really needs to be hit with the nerfbat. I checked Battleclinic and found ******ed kills like this: ... There's so much more - I just picked out recent Killmails. CCP should take a long hard look at the Hurricane. It's in the same OP status as the Dramiel.
I suggest you go back to Page 19 and re-read why killmails are completely devoid of context.
Also, the idea that laser DPS and tracking is awful makes me laugh. This forum was littered with detailed evidence to the contrary a year ago and nothing has changed about them since.
Show me another BC doing 740+ dps at 24km range WHILE having ridiculous buffer tank and I will happily go to Page 19 :) --- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Captain Merkin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 18:08:00 -
[652]
Originally by: G'niluah Ch'tib Edited by: G''niluah Ch''tib on 02/09/2010 17:20:43 Hurricane really needs to be hit with the nerfbat. I checked Battleclinic and found ******ed kills like this:
Two Hurricanes versus four Drakes and one Myrmidon
Hurricane versus Tengu and Wolf
Hurricane versus two HAM drakes (Same pilot as above, a solo Cane should not be able to kill two PvP Ham drakes, balancing is totally out of the window)
Hurricane versus a gang and killing enough before dying to even out ISK loss A solo ship should not be able to actually be able to take on a gang!
There's so much more - I just picked out recent Killmails. CCP should take a long hard look at the Hurricane. It's in the same OP status as the Dramiel.
In my opinion the ROF bonus of the Hurricane should be removed, make it a speed bonus instead but cut base speed of the Hurricane by 25%. End result would be same speed with BC lvl 5 and less damage.
edit: Enjoy your OP ship as long as you can - ask yourself why you're not flying the Brutix instead of the Hurricane and then you have your answer.
what do killmails have to do with jack ****?
Maybe they were afk... maybe they were already in structure, maybe their pilots were rubbish... it proves nothing and is utterly pointless.
I have seen killmails where 30 ships have been in a fight and only one come onto the km, it doesnt prove squat Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 18:21:00 -
[653]
Originally by: Akisawa
Show me another BC doing 740+ dps at 24km range WHILE having ridiculous buffer tank and I will happily go to Page 19 :)
I can assure you that the Hurricane does not do 740DPS at 24KM.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.02 18:23:00 -
[654]
Originally by: Akisawa
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: G'niluah Ch'tib
Hurricane really needs to be hit with the nerfbat. I checked Battleclinic and found ******ed kills like this: ... There's so much more - I just picked out recent Killmails. CCP should take a long hard look at the Hurricane. It's in the same OP status as the Dramiel.
I suggest you go back to Page 19 and re-read why killmails are completely devoid of context.
Also, the idea that laser DPS and tracking is awful makes me laugh. This forum was littered with detailed evidence to the contrary a year ago and nothing has changed about them since.
Show me another BC doing 740+ dps at 24km range WHILE having ridiculous buffer tank and I will happily go to Page 19 :)
Hurricane fit. Geif!
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Corelich
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Posted - 2010.09.02 18:45:00 -
[655]
Edited by: Corelich on 02/09/2010 18:50:52
Originally by: Akisawa
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: G'niluah Ch'tib
Hurricane really needs to be hit with the nerfbat. I checked Battleclinic and found ******ed kills like this: ... There's so much more - I just picked out recent Killmails. CCP should take a long hard look at the Hurricane. It's in the same OP status as the Dramiel.
I suggest you go back to Page 19 and re-read why killmails are completely devoid of context.
Also, the idea that laser DPS and tracking is awful makes me laugh. This forum was littered with detailed evidence to the contrary a year ago and nothing has changed about them since.
Show me another BC doing 740+ dps at 24km range WHILE having ridiculous buffer tank and I will happily go to Page 19 :)
You know your doing only 36% of your damage at the end of falloff, do you? 266 dps at 24 km doesnt sound great anymore. At least you have 630 dps remaining at half Falloff, means about 12 km (scramrange!).
Edit: and 50 k are anything but an ridiculous buffer tank . ----------------------------------------------
Originally by: n0thing
As I know ACs can hit up to falloff + 2x optimal
Some People dont know how little they know. |
Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.09.02 18:49:00 -
[656]
Edited by: Akisawa on 02/09/2010 18:49:11
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Hurricane fit. Geif!
-Liang[/quote
have fun I guess by the time Aki can fly this, it will be nerfed TO THE GROUND, BABY :) 735 dps not overheated at 18km or 700 dps at 23km, pick your cherry
[Hurricane, pvp buffer gank] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5 Warrior II x1
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 19:04:00 -
[657]
Originally by: Akisawa
have fun I guess by the time Aki can fly this, it will be nerfed TO THE GROUND, BABY :)
Not to sound snide, but that's essentially the same fit I was expecting. (I'd have a second TE on there, but that's me.)
It gets chewed up by Harbies and chased off by Drakes...should we nerf them as well?
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.09.02 19:06:00 -
[658]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Akisawa
have fun I guess by the time Aki can fly this, it will be nerfed TO THE GROUND, BABY :)
Not to sound snide, but that's essentially the same fit I was expecting. (I'd have a second TE on there, but that's me.)
It gets chewed up by Harbies and chased off by Drakes...should we nerf them as well?
Yes, that was snide :)
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 19:26:00 -
[659]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 02/09/2010 19:29:34
Originally by: Akisawa
Yes, that was snide :)
Edit: on serious note, 2 medium neuts should break both drake and harbi necks long before buffer is gone. harbi especially, drake... depends on drake pilot and fit.
I'll try to set the snide aside. :)
I really don't think your cap argument holds against BCs. You'll be out of cap at roughly the same time the Drake will but it will have a much larger buffer, and the Harbinger will have a cap booster.
And once you're out of cap, your options for escape start to dwindle rapidly.
The double neuts on the gank Hurricane work best as defense against smaller ships, and help it run when the odds are against it. If you're out of cap from running your neuts full bore when backup arrives, you're effed. (I will freely admit that the Hurricane is better at running than any other BC.)
I'm not trying to argue that the ship isn't great, but I would say it's in perfect balance with the other Tier 2 BCs. The Myrmidon has the short end of stick, but I always thought it should flop places with the Brutix, and the Brutix should ditch its rep bonus for a tracking bonus. (Make it a mini Mega like the Hurricane is a mini Tempest.)
Though I'll argue as much as anyone else that Angel ships are clearly overpowered, I don't think that argument holds for the rest of the Minmatar lineup. You just see the ships everywhere because everyone and their mother is training for Angel ships, and Minnie ships come along with the skills.
ED: I think it's a big misconception that since Projectiles don't use cap, the ships that use them don't have to worry about cap whatsoever. The first time you run your cap dry in a speedy buffer fit is a painful and eye-opening experience.
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Korg Leaf
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.09.02 19:48:00 -
[660]
Im sorry that cane fit would die to any competant normally fitted pvp ham drake or hml drake, and im fairly sure it would go down to a harbinger too. The tier 2 bcs are drake > harbinger=hurricane > Myrmidon.
Also auto myrmidons are purely because they have active tanks and projectiles dont use cap, hence easier to run triple rep tanks.
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