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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2010.09.02 20:06:00 -
[661]
Originally by: Akisawa Edited by: Akisawa on 02/09/2010 18:49:11
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Hurricane fit. Geif!
-Liang[/quote
have fun I guess by the time Aki can fly this, it will be nerfed TO THE GROUND, BABY :) 735 dps not overheated at 18km or 700 dps at 23km, pick your cherry
[Hurricane, pvp buffer gank] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II
Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II
425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction 50W Infectious Power System Malfunction
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x5 Warrior II x1
My EFT must be broken, because this fit shows 711 DPS at 1.7km, 500ish at 10km, 250 DPS at 20km, and 180 at 25km.
A similarly fit Harby does 638 damage out to 26km.
So at 26km, the harby is doing 638 DPS compared to 180 DPS for the hurricane.
Are you sure you know how falloff works?
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Proxyyyy
Caldari The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.09.02 20:11:00 -
[662]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Liang Nuren Actually, we have:...
I have not seen a Blaster-Amarr since the MWD-kill scramblers were introduced. There was a short period where lasers actually made it back on the tank hulls but it's all autos now
Originally by: Akisawa amarr ships are fine as they are, its the instareload lazors which make them so shiny and so adaptable =)...
Nope. The one redeeming factor of lasers is T2 long range pulse ammunition, commonly referred to as Scorch. If that crystal didn't exist lasers would be absolute crap, worse even than hybrids (how is that for bold statement!)
Originally by: Naomi Knight So in short ACs are just OP.
I would never be so crude, I enjoy spewing garbage while making my points but you'll hear no arguments from me
Scorch-is the only reason why i'd use pulse lasers (excluding beams). Amarr hullz would be garbage, (even more so than they are) without scorch. Very intresting point...
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.09.02 22:09:00 -
[663]
Yeah yeah, lets all bash the fit now. Knowing how these forums work (bored people posting during missions or while being stationcamped) I really shouldn't have bothered.
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 22:43:00 -
[664]
Originally by: Akisawa Yeah yeah, lets all bash the fit now. Knowing how these forums work (bored people posting during missions or while being stationcamped) I really shouldn't have bothered.
The fit is actually perfectly fine.
It works well for what it's designed to do, and it has a lot of upsides. All we're trying to say is that it's no more overpowered than any of the other tier 2 BCs, and that calls to nerf the Hurricane are quite overblown.
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.09.02 22:44:00 -
[665]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Akisawa Yeah yeah, lets all bash the fit now. Knowing how these forums work (bored people posting during missions or while being stationcamped) I really shouldn't have bothered.
The fit is actually perfectly fine.
It works well for what it's designed to do, and it has a lot of upsides. All we're trying to say is that it's no more overpowered than any of the other tier 2 BCs, and that calls to nerf the Hurricane are quite overblown.
Thing is, the sheer amount of Hurricanes flown nowadays should say something to devs anyway =)
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.02 22:49:00 -
[666]
Originally by: Akisawa
Thing is, the sheer amount of Hurricanes flown nowadays should say something to devs anyway =)
...that it makes respectable training wheels on your way to flying FOTM Angel ships? If it weren't for that, I'm pretty positive we'd see Amarr FW jumping back into their Harby hulls to nuke all the poor-resist shield gank fits.
I still don't think you have a valid point on it being overpowered.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.09.02 22:51:00 -
[667]
Originally by: Akisawa
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Akisawa Yeah yeah, lets all bash the fit now. Knowing how these forums work (bored people posting during missions or while being stationcamped) I really shouldn't have bothered.
The fit is actually perfectly fine.
It works well for what it's designed to do, and it has a lot of upsides. All we're trying to say is that it's no more overpowered than any of the other tier 2 BCs, and that calls to nerf the Hurricane are quite overblown.
Thing is, the sheer amount of Hurricanes flown nowadays should say something to devs anyway =)
Data on number of ships in use, from the most recent QEN:
Drake: 16465 Hurricane: 7343
Clearly, the numbers *require* that the devs buff the cane. Signature removed. |
Korg Leaf
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.09.02 23:08:00 -
[668]
sorry akisawa i didnt mean it in a your fits crap way just meant it doesnt do the dps you quoted, hasnt got a large tank, certainly not a op one and its anything from op as a competant drake would kill it 9/10
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2010.09.02 23:25:00 -
[669]
Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 02/09/2010 23:26:05
Originally by: Akisawa Yeah yeah, lets all bash the fit now. Knowing how these forums work (bored people posting during missions or while being stationcamped) I really shouldn't have bothered.
The fit is OK, although a TE would be far better than the fourth gyro in terms of real DPS. However, claiming that it does "740+ dps at 24km range" is just plain dumb. If you don't know how falloff works, you probably shouldn't be voicing an opinion in this thread. Also, if you think 50k EHP is a "ridiculous buffer tank," I can only assume you've never heard of the Drake. Signature removed. |
omgfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.09.02 23:32:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Ophelia Ursus If you don't know how falloff works, you probably shouldn't be voicing an opinion in this thread.
Falloff is a system by which Minmatar pilots can have "barely any DPS at ranges further than like 1km" in "nerf minmatar" threads, while also having the ability to do "800 dps in mah cane at 20km" in e-peen threads.
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Gavin Darklighter
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.09.03 00:10:00 -
[671]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 03/09/2010 00:12:28
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Akisawa amarr ships are fine as they are, its the instareload lazors which make them so shiny and so adaptable =)...
Nope. The one redeeming factor of lasers is T2 long range pulse ammunition, commonly referred to as
Its actually the ability to switch between scorch and navy mf instantly that makes scorch so strong. With barrage or null you have to suffer a 10 second reload time to switch between them. I personally think it would make sense for lasers to have a crystal switch time over 10 seconds since you are technically changing out a large part of the weapon rather than simply feeding it different ammunition. That would force pulse laser users to think carefully about which type of ammo they want to have loaded when they enter combat.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Irae Ragwan
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Posted - 2010.09.03 00:19:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Korg Leaf sorry akisawa i didnt mean it in a your fits crap way just meant it doesnt do the dps you quoted, hasnt got a large tank, certainly not a op one and its anything from op as a competant drake would kill it 9/10
Have to disagee here. I fly both the cane and drake solo quite a bit and I can tell you if the drake 'beat' *as in popped* in the cane 9 of 10 times then that cane pilot is awful. I'm not saying it's a take-down for the cane, or that the cane is any more or less an effective ship than the drake, but the strength of the shield gank cane is mobility. It's got plenty of leeway to degress from the target if it needs to (ie. if the drake is bait and local spikes). The cane can also take on just as many (if not a wider variety) of targets with a more generalized fit.
Again, not saying the cane is OP, but you're talking out of your ass if you think it's not a match for the "competent" drake pilot.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.03 00:41:00 -
[673]
Originally by: Irae Ragwan
Originally by: Korg Leaf sorry akisawa i didnt mean it in a your fits crap way just meant it doesnt do the dps you quoted, hasnt got a large tank, certainly not a op one and its anything from op as a competant drake would kill it 9/10
Have to disagee here. I fly both the cane and drake solo quite a bit and I can tell you if the drake 'beat' *as in popped* in the cane 9 of 10 times then that cane pilot is awful. I'm not saying it's a take-down for the cane, or that the cane is any more or less an effective ship than the drake, but the strength of the shield gank cane is mobility. It's got plenty of leeway to degress from the target if it needs to (ie. if the drake is bait and local spikes). The cane can also take on just as many (if not a wider variety) of targets with a more generalized fit.
Again, not saying the cane is OP, but you're talking out of your ass if you think it's not a match for the "competent" drake pilot.
Can I tl;dr that as "A Drake will either kill the Hurricane or hold the field"?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers
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Posted - 2010.09.03 00:57:00 -
[674]
This thread just won't die, its like a fkn undead which comes again and again. Why don't you whiners just fly all those Minmatar ships if they are so good? Training for med projectiles doesn't take long. Train them and see for yourself, while smart people train for laz0rs and kill all the shield tanked ships with little buffer and crap resists? Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.03 01:25:00 -
[675]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Originally by: Akisawa
Show me another BC doing 740+ dps at 24km range WHILE having ridiculous buffer tank and I will happily go to Page 19 :)
I can assure you that the Hurricane does not do 740DPS at 24KM.
It's actually doable. For 1 minute Though I doubt he'd fit 3 domi gyros...
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Irae Ragwan
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Posted - 2010.09.03 04:19:00 -
[676]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Can I tl;dr that as "A Drake will either kill the Hurricane or hold the field"?
-Liang
Sure, but considering the 'field' typically has no meaning in a lowsec roam and you don't really loose anything by engaging then degressing from the drake who proves too tough to crack... The point being: both ships make great solo bc's and pitting them head to head like that (declaring the 'winner' as best ship) is a little over-simplistic. I'd say the hurricane would more often be the 'winner,' because he can run when he's loosing to the drake, but the drake won't be able to escape in the same manner if the cane has a friend or two jump into the fray.
/unbiased opinions
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.03 04:30:00 -
[677]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/09/2010 04:30:46
Originally by: Irae Ragwan
Sure, but considering the 'field' typically has no meaning in a lowsec roam and you don't really loose anything by engaging then degressing from the drake who proves too tough to crack... The point being: both ships make great solo bc's and pitting them head to head like that (declaring the 'winner' as best ship) is a little over-simplistic. I'd say the hurricane would more often be the 'winner,' because he can run when he's loosing to the drake, but the drake won't be able to escape in the same manner if the cane has a friend or two jump into the fray.
/unbiased opinions
On the flip side, the Drake is more likely to be able to deagress than the Hurricane because it has twice the hitpoints and isn't terribly slow itself. It is notably more agile than a Hurricane (!!!).
/unbiased opinions
-Liang
Ed: Also, the guy that holds the field collects the loot. And the Drake is many times more useful in a gang. And and and. The Hurricane is crap next to a Drake. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.03 06:54:00 -
[678]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 03/09/2010 06:56:02
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Its actually the ability to switch between scorch and navy mf instantly that makes scorch so strong. With barrage or null you have to suffer a 10 second reload time to switch between them...
The fast switch is part of Scorch power but after projectile buff it doesn't actually tally as an advantage. The AC/TE pilot can load whatever ammo he damn well pleases and do 30-50% at Scorch ranges Barrage is not even needed any more .. his considerably (20%+) higher speed increases this damage as he rams his target achieving applied damage numbers that exceed anything lasers with MF can dish out once tracking takes its pound.
Blasters don't even enter the picture as they are in half armour by the time they start on a laser boat and are dead without even touching an AC boat .. but a different discussion so wont go into it here.
That is the crux of this whole debacle, AC+TE = Godmode (I equate it to the FPS AimBots). CCP failed to consider what AC/TE would do when added to ships with 2-3 weapon bonuses creating the sniping AC Machariel, untouchable kiting Cynabals, Nano-Cane, Nano-Rupture, Super-cane (Tempest) et al.
My suggested solution still stands: Increase AC fittings to a point where they are no longer trivial to fit and forces actual compromises when going for the biggest barrels.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.09.03 07:02:00 -
[679]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/09/2010 07:05:00
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida My suggested solution still stands: Increase AC fittings to a point where they are no longer trivial to fit and forces actual compromises when going for the biggest barrels.
That is a completely ******ed thing to suggest before the blaster boost happens. And it will happen.
-Liang
Ed: Also, you might want to try fixing the "untouchable" ships before you go nerfing the entirety of the Minmatar lineup. And *****ing LOL* at the aimbot comment. Seriously, the game ain't that broke. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Korg Leaf
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2010.09.03 07:39:00 -
[680]
The nano-cane, nano-rupture and nano-tempest arent that amazing, all die once tackled and they can all be tackled as they are a fairly hard type of ship to fly. The ac machariel is fairly well balanced with the other pirate battleships. The cynabal on the other hand is just silly, but it isnt a minmatar ship, its an angel ship. If we are going to nerf a projectile ship, nerf the angel frigate and cruiser.
Also armor rupture cant fit the biggest 'barrels' with a 1600 plate, neuts and mwd. Same applies to the cane, mwd, 1600 plate, 425's and mwd will leave you short roughly 200 powergrid
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souhyeahright
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Posted - 2010.09.03 07:53:00 -
[681]
Edited by: souhyeahright on 03/09/2010 07:55:39
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida The fast switch is part of Scorch power but after projectile buff it doesn't actually tally as an advantage. The AC/TE pilot can load whatever ammo he damn well pleases and do 30-50% at Scorch ranges Barrage is not even needed any more .. his considerably (20%+) higher speed increases this damage as he rams his target achieving applied damage numbers that exceed anything lasers with MF can dish out once tracking takes its pound.
A shield cane with faction ammo has 1.9 + 20 km optimal + falloff. Given that your effective range is optimal + half falloff, that means you're only going to be doing anything like your EFT DPS if you're within 12 km of the target. A comparably-fit heavy pulse shield harbinger has a 29 km optimal, dropping to 26 if you use FMPs. The only medium gun ships on which RF ammo is even vaguely competitive in autocannons at skirmishing ranges are the Vaga and Cynabal (and that's being generous with the definition of skrimishing range).
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Akisawa
Caldari Path Of The Cursed
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Posted - 2010.09.03 08:08:00 -
[682]
Edited by: Akisawa on 03/09/2010 08:08:41 The Minmatard horde has spoken - Dont nerf cane :))))
But seriously, do something with a f**king Myrmidon and Brutix.
--- Improving my day by ruining yours
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.09.03 09:02:00 -
[683]
Originally by: Liang Nuren That is a completely ******ed thing to suggest before the blaster boost happens. And it will happen.
I fail to see what the impending hybrid work has to do with balancing the broken AC/TE combination. The only effect it could possibly have on game is to make hybrids the new 'OP' so that AC/TE pales in comparison which is definitely not my idea of balancing.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Ed: Also, you might want to try fixing the "untouchable" ships before you go nerfing the entirety of the Minmatar lineup....
A minor grid increase of 5-10% is all that is required to achieve my desired result. It will not "nerf" any ships but will make many current cookie-cutters impossible without downsizing (thus limiting AC/TE synergy) as well as weaken the untouchables without breaking them.
Originally by: Korg Leaf ...Also armor rupture cant fit the biggest 'barrels' with a 1600 plate, neuts and mwd. Same applies to the cane, mwd, 1600 plate, 425's and mwd will leave you short roughly 200 powergrid
Oh the horror, the Armour-Cane has to swap a single medium neut for a small to fit biggest guns .. if other races had that same level of "sacrifice" there would be no issue but alas. As for the Rupture; Try fitting plate + medium guns on any other races ship and see what that leaves you by comparison. You either end up having to use fitting mods or a lol-fit. Ex. The Amarr gun cruiser (Omen) cant even fit focused pulse, MWD and 800 plate without using fitting mods!
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souhyeahright
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Posted - 2010.09.03 10:42:00 -
[684]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Oh the horror, the Armour-Cane has to swap a single medium neut for a small to fit biggest guns .. if other races had that same level of "sacrifice" there would be no issue but alas.
You're focusing on the 'size' of the guns rather than what they actually do, which is pretty dumb.
Quote: Ex. The Amarr gun cruiser (Omen) cant even fit focused pulse, MWD and 800 plate without using fitting mods!
You could nerf the Rupture until it was worse than a Velator and that still wouldn't make the Omen worth flying. Its uselessness has nothing to do with the Rupture or any of the other worthwhile T1 cruisers. If you mean 'the tier system sucks and there are a whole bunch of T1 ships that are pretty terrible and need boosting' then say so.
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Captain Merkin
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.03 11:06:00 -
[685]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Liang Nuren That is a completely ******ed thing to suggest before the blaster boost happens. And it will happen.
I fail to see what the impending hybrid work has to do with balancing the broken AC/TE combination. The only effect it could possibly have on game is to make hybrids the new 'OP' so that AC/TE pales in comparison which is definitely not my idea of balancing.
Originally by: Liang Nuren Ed: Also, you might want to try fixing the "untouchable" ships before you go nerfing the entirety of the Minmatar lineup....
A minor grid increase of 5-10% is all that is required to achieve my desired result. It will not "nerf" any ships but will make many current cookie-cutters impossible without downsizing (thus limiting AC/TE synergy) as well as weaken the untouchables without breaking them.
Originally by: Korg Leaf ...Also armor rupture cant fit the biggest 'barrels' with a 1600 plate, neuts and mwd. Same applies to the cane, mwd, 1600 plate, 425's and mwd will leave you short roughly 200 powergrid
Oh the horror, the Armour-Cane has to swap a single medium neut for a small to fit biggest guns .. if other races had that same level of "sacrifice" there would be no issue but alas. As for the Rupture; Try fitting plate + medium guns on any other races ship and see what that leaves you by comparison. You either end up having to use fitting mods or a lol-fit. Ex. The Amarr gun cruiser (Omen) cant even fit focused pulse, MWD and 800 plate without using fitting mods!
I assume you mean this increase across the board for all autocannons...
this would seriously ruin so many ships ability to fit a viable setup properly, fking disgusting idea.
As has been said so many times look at fixing the ships and guns that are lacking, not nerf something that does its job.
I fly all races and all systems and have very little favouratism towards matari other than to a certain few key ships i love to bits, autocannons are far from being overpowered.. and removing someones ability to fit a decent set up is just spiteful.
There are plenty of ships you can fit a plate and medium guns on whilst sticking a 1600mm plate let alone a 800mm... rig slots for increased powergrid give you the ability to do a lot more than you might think possible.
Proving natural selection and Charles Darwin wrong since 1981.
The Kamikaze pilot
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.09.03 11:33:00 -
[686]
Originally by: souhyeahright You're focusing on the 'size' of the guns rather than what they actually do, which is pretty dumb.
What they actually do is, they have perfect tracking, selectable damage type, great dps, good operational range, need no cap and you still can fit 2x med neuts/hams to cane, while you have free medslot, because you dont need cap booster like harbinger. On a hull that is still 100m/s faster than harbi.
Quote: Its uselessness has nothing to do with the Rupture or any of the other worthwhile T1 cruisers.
Fun fact is, that "other worthwhile t1 cruisers" actually are "broken" gallente vexor and thorax.
Originally by: Captain Merkin this would seriously ruin so many ships ability to fit a viable setup properly, fking disgusting idea.
Originally by: Captain Merkin have very little favouratism towards matari
Yes, ofc.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2010.09.03 11:50:00 -
[687]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: souhyeahright You're focusing on the 'size' of the guns rather than what they actually do, which is pretty dumb.
What they actually do is, they have perfect tracking, selectable damage type, great dps, good operational range, need no cap and you still can fit 2x med neuts/hams to cane, while you have free medslot, because you dont need cap booster like harbinger. On a hull that is still 100m/s faster than harbi.
Quote: Its uselessness has nothing to do with the Rupture or any of the other worthwhile T1 cruisers.
Fun fact is, that "other worthwhile t1 cruisers" actually are "broken" gallente vexor and thorax.
Originally by: Captain Merkin this would seriously ruin so many ships ability to fit a viable setup properly, fking disgusting idea.
Originally by: Captain Merkin have very little favouratism towards matari
Yes, ofc.
I am guessing that you don't actually fly minmatar. I can fly all turret races and for short range turrets, in a gang setting, nothing beats pulse lasers. I still think it's funny that you guys all want to nerf the second best weapon system.
If you had 10 Pulse harbingers jumping into 10 AC canes on a gate, my money would be on the Harbingers. In fact, I think the canes would get ****d. The canes would actually do better if they were artillery fit, since then they could compete for range and use thier alpha to remove DPS from the battlefield.
AC's just don't have the range to apply good DPS when targets are 10-30km away. And also those medium neuts would be a waste on 90% of the targets too. On a normal gate engagement, some targets are going to be far and some near. The Habingers would be able to focus fire better at near maximum DPS, while the canes would find that many of the targets would be deep into falloff and out of Neut range.
That is where the balance comes into this, not in some 1v1 prearranged battle in Jita.
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omgfreemoniez
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Posted - 2010.09.03 11:59:00 -
[688]
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
I am guessing that you don't actually fly minmatar.
If I flew Minmatar I'd be enjoying their wonderful OPness, and saying anything I can to stop them from getting nerfed. Somewhat like many of the people in this thread.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.09.03 12:09:00 -
[689]
Actually i fly minmatar and actually im finding it so much better than amarr, that only amarr ship i used for more than 15 minutes in last week was guardian.
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souhyeahright
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Posted - 2010.09.03 12:17:00 -
[690]
Edited by: souhyeahright on 03/09/2010 12:18:33
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: souhyeahright You're focusing on the 'size' of the guns rather than what they actually do, which is pretty dumb.
What they actually do is, they have perfect tracking, selectable damage type, great dps, good operational range, need no cap and you still can fit 2x med neuts/hams to cane, while you have free medslot, because you dont need cap booster like harbinger. On a hull that is still 100m/s faster than harbi.
What does 'perfect tracking' even mean? You're not going to be volleying an inty orbiting at 20 km in a shield cane, nor will you be tracking a frigate in a tight orbit. Dumb frigates that click 'approach' will die, but that's true with any medium turrets with the range to hit them. Selectable damage type is fine, provided you're willing to operate right on the edge of scram range. If you're staying further out, it's barrage or nothing (RF EMP on a standard shield cane gives you 290 turret DPS at 20 km. Woah mama!). And of course, at 20 km +, you'll find that both pulses and arties will substantially out-DPS you, even with barrage.
Quote:
Quote: Its uselessness has nothing to do with the Rupture or any of the other worthwhile T1 cruisers.
Fun fact is, that "other worthwhile t1 cruisers" actually are "broken" gallente vexor and thorax.
Yeah bro, who could possibly get any use out of a Caracal, Blackbird, or Arbitrator? Also, calling either the Vexor or the Thorax 'broken' is daft, at least by the standards set by the Moa, Maller, and Omen.
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