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Cenarkion
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Posted - 2010.08.16 08:11:00 -
[1]
***n00b alert***
Hey guys, Im hoping some of you experienced folk may be able to shed some light on what I'm seeing with my railguns. Quick n Dirty - My rails hit, for the most part, for very little damage most of the time.
Because of the above I have been switching to Arty where possible, sometimes autocannons, though I really miss the range.
This was pretty good in my Myrm, however I have just moved to a Dominix and would like to run L4s in it. Unfortunately the damage output of rails on this boat is truly tragic.
My Domi Rail Fit [Dominix, Domi1] Large Armor Repairer II N-Type Thermic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Thermic Hardener I Capacitor Power Relay II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link I Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
350mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L 350mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L Drone Link Augmentor I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Ancillary Current Router I
Ogre I x7 Hammerhead II x7 Hobgoblin II x7
More often than not, a volley from this config will hit a BS for 20-40. Once into hull it will jump to a few hundred. Is this anywhere near normal? What am I missing here? What do I need to do to make Rails actually do some damage? Below are my gunnery skills. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.08.16 08:17:00 -
[2]
Your trajectory analysis could use some training to start with.
Then, your 350mm's are to kill of BC and above, but dont expect them to do much more damage then your sentry drones or heavy's. Actualy, expect them to do less.
You should spend some training time on the 7 skills in there that are not weapon system related. (rapid fire, sharpshooter, trajectory, etc.)
========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
RaTTuS
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.08.16 08:19:00 -
[3]
try learning some skills up, all the gunnery and support ones to 4 or 5 1st tracking skills up ships skills up 425's are better also though you probably have fitting problems
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.16 08:32:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/08/2010 08:33:19 To add to the above:
1) train Gallente BS more, the Dominix has a 5% damage bonus for each BS level for the hybrids;
2) don't fight angels;
3) use the right ammunitions for the range at wick you are fighting. Antimatter aren't always the best.
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Miss Connolly
Public Relations Corp
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Posted - 2010.08.16 08:34:00 -
[5]
Sadly rails are simply not that good. They are very limited by the damage type they deal (kin/therm). So if you're going up against any NPCs with high resists in those areas then your DPS will be terrible. Additionally the tracking and range on rails is simply dismal compared to lasers (which also have damage-type problems but at least with superior range and tracking).
I just crunched the numbers a few days ago for all the viable snipe BS. Basically the only ones worth a damn are the Apoc and the Rokh. They both out-perform the Mega at snipe range (150-200km) by a great deal (more DPS, better tracking, more range). The Mega gets a 37,5% tracking bonus with BS5 but the tracking of the Rails is still worse then unbonused Tachyon Beams. The Rokh is only viable because it can get Spike / Aurora range with t1 ammo (which greatly improves the effective tracking).
So bottom line: reprocess the Mega and train for Apoc.
In your case (PVE) I'd simply not focus on the guns too much. The Dominix deals damage with drones - only use the guns to pull aggro from spawns. Perhaps you can upgrade some other aspects of your Domi by dropping to lower-tier guns (e.g. Dual 250mms) since you're not going to be doing any proper damage with them anyway. ___________________ "It was mentioned by CCP that the data does not seem to support that polished quality sells better than new features."
These are the people you are giving your money to. |
Ressiv
Cooperative Freelance Navigators Association
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Posted - 2010.08.16 08:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Miss Connolly The Dominix deals damage with drones - only use the guns to pull aggro from spawns.
This too. My highslots have a DLA, sometimes 2 and a remote armor repper in case I **** up and get drone agro. Civilian laser works perfect to get agro ========================== Nothing is true, everything is permitted. ========================== |
Wacktopia
Dark Side Of The Womb Focused Intentions
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Posted - 2010.08.16 11:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Wacktopia on 16/08/2010 11:41:52 Edited by: Wacktopia on 16/08/2010 11:37:34
Note that if you try to hit a frigate or cruiser with large guns you are liable to miss sometimes and therefore do less damage. At close range (that's anything under 30km with those guns) don't expect to do much damage at all if any against cruiser and below.
Take some light drones to kill the small ships and then just use the rails against the battleship rats.
Note that even if the BS rats get within about 10km of you and orbit you are liable to still miss sometimes.
The guns you are using are designed for long range against large targets.
The above advice is sound but just to repeat and solidify:
Train all your gunnery support skills (motion prediction, surgical strike, etc) up to level 4 - it's well worth it.
Edit: I use Dual 250's, which have the best trackign of the large rails, and the following setup. (NOTE: This is for kin/therm rats)
[Dominix, L4,Serpentis] Damage Control II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
Dual 250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L Dual 250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L Dual 250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L Dual 250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L Dual 250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L Dual 250mm Compressed Coil Gun I, Antimatter Charge L
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hobgoblin II x10 Wasp II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Warrior II x5 Ogre II x5
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.08.16 12:53:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 16/08/2010 12:54:56
Quote: "Rails - are they really this bad?
Yes, blasters too. When me and my friend sparred and I just couldn't dish out the damage like he was we did some skills comparisons. He has 1.8mil sp in missiles, I have 3.4mil sp in gunnery (hybrids). He has slightly less shield tanking skills than I have armor tanking skills. And he owned me. He dished out a lot more damage than I could. And we were sitting still at my optimal range.
Yes, hybrids suck the big donkey cack.
Do yourself a favor....if you're not heavily trained in Gallente ships and hybrids, start training Caldari ships and missiles.
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Quetazal
Gallente Clann Fian Retribution.
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Posted - 2010.08.16 14:10:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Quetazal on 16/08/2010 14:11:44 I thought Blasters had the best DPS and tracking of all the turrets?
So not wanting to train up Caldari as I hate the look of the ships :(
I came, I saw, I downloaded. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.08.16 14:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Quetazal I thought Blasters had the best DPS and tracking of all the turrets?
They do. They just can't apply it. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.08.16 15:04:00 -
[11]
Get a Hyperion if you want Railguns to be your primary damage. Mine plows through L4s faster than anything i've seen.
Like others have said, the Domi is a drone boat.
My deepest sympathies. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
knobber Jobbler
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Posted - 2010.08.16 15:07:00 -
[12]
OP: Train Drones and get T2 sentries if you want to get the most out of the domi. Drones make a huge differnce on any ship but this one more than most (and the Ishtar).
Hybrids are just not actually very good no matter how you look at them. They have the benefit of being instant damage over missiles and you can get some serious range on them. The way I see them and I think they way they are supposed to be viewed is they are a suppliment to drone damage for Gallente ships (as pointed out).
Its just a shame caldari ships also use hybrids as few Caldari boats really take advantage of drones and drone range is dwarfed by the potential range of large rails with the right set up.
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LegendaryFrog
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.08.16 15:08:00 -
[13]
Edited by: LegendaryFrog on 16/08/2010 15:08:34
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Quetazal I thought Blasters had the best DPS and tracking of all the turrets?
They do. They just can't apply it.
Well they can, you just have to be orbiting less than five feet away from the ship you are trying to hit... and gallente ships are generally a bit on the slow side... and they dont tank the best either...
What happens 10 times out of 10 with blasters (at least in any pvp context) is that you die before you are even able to burn in range of the hostile. In a PvE context, it just takes too long to burn in range of every rat that you want to kill. Long range systems allow you to kill any enemy with relatively little travel time.
Blasters would only work in their current state if blaster-oriented ships were given some substantial velocity boost (a bonus to mwd/afterburner speeds perhaps)
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Zanes Shoubje
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Posted - 2010.08.16 16:20:00 -
[14]
Shoot a mission structure of some sort, one that takes damage, and youll see your unpenalized volley damage or something like it. Everything less is because of signature and angular velocity of the target.
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Doddy
The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.16 16:27:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Doddy on 16/08/2010 16:28:23 The other point is of course that artillery is designed for alpha, and will obviously hit for more damage than rails. Said artillery has a terrible rate of fire though so the dps evens out over time.
Still the number one consideration for damage is damage types vs rats resists. If you are shooting angels with rails and AM L (thermal and kinetic damage) you will always do less damage than shooting them with artillery and EMP L (EM and Explosive damage).
As the Rats hull has 0% resists that shows you what your true damage is.
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2010.08.16 16:39:00 -
[16]
General Discussion has offered up some good advice. I've moved this to Ships and Modules and hopefully you can get some more good input. Good luck blowing stuff up!
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact Us |
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Daergaar
Caldari Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.16 16:57:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Daergaar on 16/08/2010 16:57:32 If you're Gallente, look into some other options like rigs and modules to increase drone control range. A lot of Gallente ships do their primary damage with drones, and secondary damage with rails (like the Dominix). It is the unfortunate reality that railgun damage is just bad.
Either that, or start fitting launchers and firing missiles. Despite their travel time, missiles remain one of the best PvE weapons there is, although their DPS can be cut a lot by defender missiles.
It might be worth training for lasers for PvE. Beams can do high damage at long range.
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Raylan Jackson
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Posted - 2010.08.16 17:00:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Raylan Jackson on 16/08/2010 16:59:49
Originally by: Daergaar Either that, or start fitting launchers and firing missiles.
Not very familiar with Gallente ships and their hardpoints are you?
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superteds
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Posted - 2010.08.16 17:03:00 -
[19]
Edited by: superteds on 16/08/2010 17:03:43
Originally by: Raylan Jackson Edited by: Raylan Jackson on 16/08/2010 16:59:49
Originally by: Daergaar Either that, or start fitting launchers and firing missiles.
Not very familiar with Gallente ships and their hardpoints are you?
[Megathron, Missiles] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager II Salvager II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Garde II x4 Hobgoblin II x5
wot of it
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CAPSLOCKBROKE
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.08.16 17:04:00 -
[20]
Here's a nice Domi fit that will work a good bit better than your current one:
[ANOM] Large 'Accommodation' Vestment Reconstructer I Magnetic Field Stabilizer II N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Kinetic Hardener I N-Type Thermic Hardener I Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay I Beta Reactor Control: Diagnostic System I
Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Optical Tracking Computer I,Optimal Range Omnidirectional Tracking Link Omnidirectional Tracking Link
350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun,Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun,Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun,Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun,Antimatter Charge L 350mm Prototype I Gauss Gun,Antimatter Charge L Drone Link Augmentor I
Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Garde I x 5 Warden I x 5 Hobgoblin II x 5
Gonna work well for you, carry Antimatter and Lead ammo.
Your gardes can hit to about 35, after than switch to wardens.
Should be fittable as long as you have engineering V, if you have IV I believe a +3% PG implant will let it fit.
Work towards tech 2 variants, especially sentry drones. Faction omni's and tech 2 sentries turn the Dominix from good to great. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ CAPSLOCK, BECAUSE SOMETIMES REGULAR FONT JUST, ISN'T, GOOD ENOUGH. |
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Matthias Howe
Amarr 24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2010.08.16 17:55:00 -
[21]
Megapulse II + Scorch is what you want there.
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.08.16 23:46:00 -
[22]
Drones are not an answer for poor guns for Gallente. Try a drone boat in a WH......not going to end well for you. In fact, I am Gallente and live in a WH. I can say without a doubt it sucks being there and being Gallente.
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Cenarkion
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Posted - 2010.08.16 23:57:00 -
[23]
Firstly, thanks very much for your feedback folks.
Unfortunately it has, for the most part, just confirmed what I was fearing. Obviously, I am still working toward raising all relevant skills to 4/5. Prioritisation (and the whims that lead me of tangentally) has determined that some skills are still lacking, but are in the plan.
Quote: Mr KiddWhen me and my friend sparred and I just couldn't dish out the damage like he was we did some skills comparisons. He has 1.8mil sp in missiles, I have 3.4mil sp in gunnery (hybrids).
I saw this type of thing myself. I, on one of my whims, trained up Caldari skills including missiles, not to a high level, just enough (3/4 for most relevant).
To test I took the domi for a run against The Mordus Headhunters last night. It really was very average. Its a slow boat, so the enemy dictate the range. BS orbiting at 35km. Drones were doing decent work, however nearly instantly pull agro from surrounding groups. Rails were hitting BS for 40-200 unreliably. I cleared half of the first group, had lost 2/3 drones (popped while recalling, missile fire from surrounding groups).
Switched to my Drake (this ship has run a few L4s, including Worlds Collide and smash the supplier, to pay for the Domi) and returned wiped the area with ease. Keeping the mobs at 50km. Scourge missiles insta popped frigs, 2 salvos ended cruisers and 5 or so nailed the scorpian BSs (hitting for 1300 a salvo). The shield on the passive drake was never bothered.
This on a ship for which I have a lesser skillset. Its a bit sad really.
I am going to continue to develop my gunnery skills and see (hope) that things improve. I enjoy a more hands-on combat style that waiting for Drones to clean up employs. Worst comes to worst, I will look at training for a Raven..
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2010.08.17 00:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mr Kidd Drones are not an answer for poor guns for Gallente. Try a drone boat in a WH......not going to end well for you. In fact, I am Gallente and live in a WH. I can say without a doubt it sucks being there and being Gallente.
Well we wouldnt' want to inconvinience you.
Let's give hybrids a +50% dps boost for the guy in the wormhole that doesn't want to change ships or tactics.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Cataca
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Posted - 2010.08.17 02:22:00 -
[25]
What you really want to do in the first place, is to train up sentry drones. For pve, they are the best tool you'll get.
The dominix is a beast with maxed out skills. It can get close to 1k dps at around 30km range, and less on longer ranges. Most of that dps comes from sentry drones tho.
Imho, it wont be viable to fly it in level 4's until you get Sentry drones to t2 (which will take care of most of the needed drone skills) -> Gallente BS and Large Hybrids to 4 and the money and fitting skills to fit t2 hardeners and 5 Prototype 350'ies with a sentry damage augmentor rig.
Till then, running level 3's will probably make you more money
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Cenarkion
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Posted - 2010.08.17 02:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Cataca Imho, it wont be viable to fly it in level 4's until you get Sentry drones to t2 (which will take care of most of the needed drone skills) -> Gallente BS and Large Hybrids to 4 and the money and fitting skills to fit t2 hardeners and 5 Prototype 350'ies with a sentry damage augmentor rig.
Till then, running level 3's will probably make you more money
I will certainly take that advise on board, thanks, sentry drones are still in the target list (what isnt I guess!?)
I am currently pulling more iskies from L4s in a Drake than L3s in either my Myrm or Brut. May throw the Drake at some L3s and see how quickly it rolls them, could be more isk/hr
ahhh so much to try...
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Daergaar
Caldari Yama Seki
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Posted - 2010.08.17 02:45:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Cenarkion
Originally by: Cataca Imho, it wont be viable to fly it in level 4's until you get Sentry drones to t2 (which will take care of most of the needed drone skills) -> Gallente BS and Large Hybrids to 4 and the money and fitting skills to fit t2 hardeners and 5 Prototype 350'ies with a sentry damage augmentor rig.
Till then, running level 3's will probably make you more money
I will certainly take that advise on board, thanks, sentry drones are still in the target list (what isnt I guess!?)
I am currently pulling more iskies from L4s in a Drake than L3s in either my Myrm or Brut. May throw the Drake at some L3s and see how quickly it rolls them, could be more isk/hr
ahhh so much to try...
I'm a 2-year Drake pilot. Drake is slower in level 3's I found due to lower DPS. But all 3 will work. I usually use a fairly light tank (comparatively to level 4's) for my level 3's in the Drake.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.08.17 03:00:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cenarkion ... Ogre I x7 ....
There's your problem. Train T2 Gall, Minnie (and Caldari for Kin targets) Heavies and T2 Sentries. Use your high slots for something useful like tractors and salvagers.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2010.08.17 03:24:00 -
[29]
Or use a dedicated salvage ship, and be much, much faster overall?
Besides, not counting the pathing of heavies a BS orbiting at 50km will take your ogres around 50 seconds to reach, where they do exactly nothing. Heavies have their place in level 4 afk running, but other than that... dont.
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Cenarkion
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Posted - 2010.08.17 04:00:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: Cenarkion ... Ogre I x7 ....
There's your problem. Train T2 Gall, Minnie (and Caldari for Kin targets) Heavies and T2 Sentries. Use your high slots for something useful like tractors and salvagers.
I understand where you're coming from, and am fully aware of the DPS benefits yet to be attained by myself with further drone training. However, the point has been lost along the way (not without benefit, mind you); "Rails - are they really this bad?" My enquiry was more to do with what I was seeing re: the performance, or aparant lack thereof of railguns (not specific to the Domi, its just the current boat Im messing with - my Myrmidon switched to Artys some time ago, as the apparent resistances I was running into with rails made them seam near useless for mission running. The changeable damage types utilized by projectile weapons was yeilding me consistly better results).
My intention for this thread was to clarify if what I was seeing was the current state of affairs for the weapon type, or if I was missing something (probably obvious) that could alter the output drastically of said weapon type. Apparently this is not so. They either require a much, much, larger skill point investment before they function as well as other weapon types, or a completely different hull (and the skill set to support said hull), for example a Kronos and their associated bonuses, before they really shine.
Personally, I have so far found pure drone based combat to be mostly boring (havent tried Sentries of course, they may change things). I prefer to be more engaged in what I am doing. With that in mind, yes I will be continuing to train my drone skills up, it would be un-Galente not to! Getting both T2 heavies and sentries as appropriate, however as this thread has helped to clarify, rails perhaps arent the weapon type that I would most enjoy using. So, its time to try other things. If nothing else the changes and testing are an interesting experiment, if not the most profitable use of my eve-time.
I am in no rush to conquer the universe, and am happy to cross-train and try different things. I have dabbled in artys, ac's, missiles, blasters and rails; I may as well train up some beam weapons and see how they fare. From there I will make my decision. Training anything up to battlecruiser level is really not a long haul. Perhaps I will try on some Amarr boats for a while, see how they suit.
Again, thank you for your input.
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