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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Ignatius Gnarl
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Posted - 2010.08.20 22:34:00 -
[1]
Standalone complex reactions are all pretty profitable, but anyone* can set one up. On the other hand, a lot of scarce moon materials are not economic to mine. Why isn't all the profit in reactions just competed away, with the value flowing to the raw materials?
* OK, you need some starting capital. In theory you need to defend your POS too, but are they that vulnerable? Who wants to go round shooting towers for fun? |
porth0s
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Posted - 2010.08.20 22:48:00 -
[2]
Just guessing here but - have you ever setup and ran a reaction POS?
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Whitehound
The Whitehound Corporation
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Posted - 2010.08.20 22:57:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Whitehound on 20/08/2010 22:58:05 People are lazy. Not everyone is looking for the perfect profit, but is happy with the second best. This leaves a niche where one can make profit by going the rest of the way.
It is completely normal and you can find it in many places. From skill training, where some are good with level 4 skills and others need to have it at 5, to planetary materials where you can make a profit with only processing.
Quote: Who wants to go round shooting towers for fun?
Anyone but its owner. This is EVE, remember?!? --
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.20 23:04:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ignatius Gnarl OK, you need some starting capital. In theory you need to defend your POS too, but are they that vulnerable? Who wants to go round shooting towers for fun?
I know of several people who go around shooting towers for fun in lowsec. Ok, not exactly "fun", more like "he's too close to where we are, we don't know them, let's clean'em out". Also, it's not like reactions are work-free themselves... there's plenty of hauling to be done on a regular basis... fuel and missing minerals into the tower, then the reaction products back to the market... and it's not exactly little volume, especially when you have to keep crossing highsec/lowsec. I've heard more enough people claiming they'd rather give up reacting than pull less than X mil ISK per tower per month (where X varies wildly from person to person, anywhere in between 50 to 300).
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Zorn Baderdash
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Posted - 2010.08.20 23:14:00 -
[5]
Tbh, with current prices, two simples earn more then one complex. Both are not that great atm.
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Lucyna
Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.08.20 23:27:00 -
[6]
All these S&I topics in my MD =
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Zorn Baderdash
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Posted - 2010.08.20 23:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lucyna All these S&I topics in my MD =
Its payback for the price of coolant Which is going DOWN! yay!
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Quantessa
DRACONIAN COVENANT
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Posted - 2010.08.21 00:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Lucyna All these S&I topics in my MD =
It's about reaction profitability. It could justifiably be posted in either forum. At least here it got a response from Akita T.
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Nikolai Kondratiev
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Posted - 2010.08.21 01:46:00 -
[9]
You can always run reactions in a C1 W-space to make the POS itself safe (no one finds it fun to shoot a large control tower with only battlecruisers and unless your C1 gets its exit bubble-camped, the hauler is also safe.
But you also have to choose to wait X days till you get an exit near your buying/selling point or do some insane amount of jumps to haul stuff in & out.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.21 01:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Zorn Baderdash Its payback for the price of coolant
The price of coolant is eternal vigilance ! No, wait, that's not right...
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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CCP Applebabe
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Posted - 2010.08.21 03:22:00 -
[11]
Moved from Market Discussions.
Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Ignatius Gnarl
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Posted - 2010.08.21 06:54:00 -
[12]
I think MD is a more natural place for this question. I'm not asking about the nuts and bolts of how to run an industrial process, I'm asking about the economics of why an unlimited resource has not degenerated into perfect market conditions, while a scarce resource has no value.
I have experience running reactions. I guess the reason there is some profit in reactions is that it takes some effort to run them. This still doesn't explain why they are more profitable than simple moon mining in almost all cases.
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2010.08.21 07:38:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ignatius Gnarl I have experience running reactions. I guess the reason there is some profit in reactions is that it takes some effort to run them. This still doesn't explain why they are more profitable than simple moon mining in almost all cases.
For the common moon goo I reckon it's because a lot of people want a POS for a specific reason (e.g. reverse engineering T3 blueprints, mining and reacting a valuable moon goo, etc). Given that they have the pos up anyway and harvesters are pretty low requirement to run they might as well mine the lo value stuff on the moon to help mitigate fuel costs.
Reactors, however, have substantial requirements so it may not be worth sacrificing the main purpose of the POS to react what you're mining.
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Zorn Baderdash
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Posted - 2010.08.21 08:49:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ignatius Gnarl This still doesn't explain why they are more profitable than simple moon mining in almost all cases.
Simple moon mining is more simple. The common moon goo is also very common. 4 extractors with a large POS. and only 2 simple reactions, and only 1 complex per large tower. The rare moon goo is far more profitable then reacting. Gimme a technetium moon, and Ill trade you my 4 reaction towers. I suspect I need some mega alliance to keep it thou.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.08.21 10:33:00 -
[15]
My theory, I just thought about this for a while so I might be completely wrong.
Observation 1: Not all moon reactions are profitable. Most of the complex ones are, but many simple ones won't even pay for fuel costs by themselves.
Observation 2: Moon reactions take in moon minerals mined from moons, and produce components ussed in TII production.
Now, the input - moon minerals - at least the high-level ones - is controlled largely by 0.0 sovereignty warfare. As system ownership changes hands, so do the moons. Some alliances might use the resources on their own, some might just dump the lot in Jita. This results in high movement in prices of basic moon minerals. For a reference look at the price graphs of pretty much any of them in Jita.
As for the output, TII items, those utilize a very wide range of activities and processes - from mining, invention, research to the actual manufacturing. Therefore a change in any of these mechanics indirectly influences the price of TII items, and results in changes of prices of their components - advanced moon minerals. Again, see Jita price graphs for evidence.
So you have high frequency market changes on both the input and the output minerals for reactions, and my theory is that the moon mineral prices simply can't adapt quickly to these changes. Unlike ores, minerals or let's say salvage, which get dumped on the market daily, most POS owners only unload their products every few weeks or months. Therefore the market fluctuations are both high in amplitude and slow to change to make some of the reactions highly profitable at any point of time. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.08.21 10:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zorn Baderdash Simple moon mining is more simple. The common moon goo is also very common. 4 extractors with a large POS.
Ever set up a mining POS before? ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Zorn Baderdash
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Posted - 2010.08.21 12:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Zorn Baderdash Simple moon mining is more simple. The common moon goo is also very common. 4 extractors with a large POS.
Ever set up a mining POS before?
yes
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.08.21 12:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zorn Baderdash
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Zorn Baderdash Simple moon mining is more simple. The common moon goo is also very common. 4 extractors with a large POS.
Ever set up a mining POS before?
yes
Show me the moon with four minerals on it then. Or were you thinking gasses? Those are not even worth mining for the price of the harvester. ___________ EVE is dying! Now for real! |
Zorn Baderdash
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Posted - 2010.08.21 14:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Zorn Baderdash
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Zorn Baderdash Simple moon mining is more simple. The common moon goo is also very common. 4 extractors with a large POS.
Ever set up a mining POS before?
yes
Show me the moon with four minerals on it then. Or were you thinking gasses? Those are not even worth mining for the price of the harvester.
You are right it isnt profitable, anymore. Also sometimes you have multiples of the same resources.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.08.21 16:23:00 -
[20]
I ran 3 reaction towers for about a 6 weeks, it was a pain in the ass. I hated being anchored to eve like that, and overall it wasn't much isk anyway, certainly not enough to be worth it (to me).
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bankbankbank
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Posted - 2010.08.21 22:50:00 -
[21]
My alt is currently running 6 large towers, each tower running both a simple and complex reaction. I have had them up for around 6/7 weeks, and each week i have pulled profit. No where near the profit i expected may i add. I did research and kept a spreadsheet with daily prices for moon minerals, advanced and simple reactants, and was happy to see an average of 150/200 mil per week profit per tower. I sink the capital in, and so far my best week has been 600 mil (100 mil profit per tower). This week looked to be awsome, prices where low for my materials, and the outputs where holding at a semi high price, until i got the stuff to jita. I have watched the price of my Advanced material drop by 3000 isk p/u, and will mean another week of less than 100 mil per tower.
I suspect, as the market is so volitile, everyone is switching and changing there reactions to the most profitable, meaning, the market is oversupplyed, and then you have the idiots that change there orders by 100 isk p/u every 5 mins.
I am pretty disapointed, had hopes of getting a stable income of around 500-1 bil a week, and allowing me to pay for my 3 accounts and pvp ships without sweat. This vision is becoming blury. My plans for now, are to continue unless the towers make less than 300 mil a week. I honestly cant be bothered to change out reactions every few weeks, so am keeping on with the ones am doing, and hopefully everyone else will stop producing it :P
Anyway, TL:DR Reacting is afk isk, and aslong as it makes enough profit for you to justify the hours you spend hauling and monitering market, you cant complain. But, it is definatly not as profitable as it looks from the outside.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.08.21 23:36:00 -
[22]
If you could anchor reactors in high sec, you would most likely see a dramatic drop in profitability of reaction POSs. Reaction POS will remain profitable because they must be in low/null sec and they are a pita to setup and maintain. - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant |
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