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Doravos
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Posted - 2010.08.23 20:21:00 -
[1]
Again and again I hear experienced players say you should never fit both shield and armour tank.
What nobody ever explains is why.
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Intense Thinker
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.08.23 20:23:00 -
[2]
Shiled tank leaves lowslots for damage mods, armor tank leaves midslots for tackle and ewar, tanking both makes you pretty much useless other than bait Signature locked for editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist |
Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.08.23 20:53:00 -
[3]
That's for ACTIVE tanks mostly. And it's because to get the best out of a tank, you will use a majority of non-critical-for-something-else slots for it (and an active tank is actually only part tank, rest is capacitor management). When you take out even a single slot out of the tank setup to use it for something else, the overall tanking power dramatically decreases. If you try to fit BOTH a shield and an armor tank, it will be overall noticeably weaker than fitting just one type of tank. Of course, if you're only talking pure hitpoints (buffer tanks), that could work while trying to shove both types... but it won't be very great either anyway.
So, long story short, focused one-type-tank is better than subpar dual tank.
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Matalino
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Posted - 2010.08.23 21:07:00 -
[4]
Like the previous replies point out, fitting a dual tank uses valuable fitting slots.
Additionally, you will only be taking damage in one tank at a time. If you are taking damage in shields, you will not be taking damage in armour. If you are taking damage in armour, your shields are already gone. In theory, damage can bleed through your shields. In practice, the effect is insignificant.
As a further observation, with an active tank, you are often limited by the amount of capacitor that you have. If your shield booster drains all your cap, you will have none left to run your armour rep.
Because of these two factors it makes sense to plan to deal with damage with either shields or armour. It rarely makes sense to try asorbing damage in both. Extreme buffer tanks are an exception. If you can think of another very specific reason why you plan to take damage in both shields and armour, then it might be appropreate to dual tank. However, any such reason would need to be very specific to that situation. For general purposes, there is no reason to plan on a dual tank. It is more sensible to focus on a single tank.
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Celestine Santora
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Posted - 2010.08.23 21:23:00 -
[5]
I could see dual passive/buffer tanking as acceptable on bait ships.
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Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2010.08.24 04:54:00 -
[6]
Dual tanking is a very specific fit for very specific circumstances.
The only ones I can think of are: 1) Haulers - there's not much a hauler needs to do except get from A to B without getting killed. e.g. An Orca can be fitted with a Structure/Shield Tank for an impressive 270k EHP. If it's in high-sec, it's going to take a lot to gank it, and it's unlikely to be worthwhile if done for the ISK. 2) Bait - dual tanking a bait ship can work. Doing so allows it to survive long enough for the trap to be sprung. You might still want a point and a web on it, just to make sure the prey doesn't shuffle off.
______________________ Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University |
Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.08.24 06:05:00 -
[7]
Basically, if you are tanking a ship, you'll want to slots you aren't using for the tank to support the ones you are.
For example, a shield tank will greatly benifit from shield power relays if you are passive or power diagnostic units if you aren't. An active armor rep tank would benifit greatly from fitting a capacitor booster or capacitor recharger in the mids.
If you fit saaay an armor repper in addition to your active shield tank, not only is it not contributing to your shield tank, its draining cap from your shield tank.
That is in addition to what has been stated here, that is, if you are shield tanking, you got more low slots for damage mods, and if you are armor tanking you got more slots for support modules/ and further more why do i even need a sig? |
My Postman
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Posted - 2010.08.24 12:45:00 -
[8]
As Baka said, only thing coming to my mind is my orca with bulkheads+shield.
When fiddling around with eft you will find out that when trying this you run out of cpu or powergrid (or both) soon, but it does¦nt make sence anyway.
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Helen Hunts
Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries
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Posted - 2010.08.24 19:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: My Postman Edited by: My Postman on 24/08/2010 13:23:02 As Baka said, only thing coming to my mind is my orca with bulkheads+shield.
When fiddling around with eft you will find out that when trying this you run out of cpu or powergrid (or both) soon, but it does¦nt make sense anyway.
Edit: spelling
For the Orca, Use a T2 Reinforced Bulkhead and a T2 Damage Control (60% resists to a lot of structure HP), a 100mn AB (pulse it once to get to warpable speed quickly and out of reach of curious/hostile eyes/guns) and as much shield as can be stuffed in the remaining slots.
For anything else that isn't bait, fit one single, solid, mutha of a tank instead of multiple, craptastic, tanks. _______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.25 11:04:00 -
[10]
You don't dual-tank because a ship isn't limited by just slots, it's also limited by its power grid. Say you had a dream ship with 8 medium slots and 8 low slots, plenty to put in both shield and armor tanks. It also has lots of power grid, but not an infinite amount. If you use up all the power grid to put in an awesome shield tank, that's better than splitting the grid to set up a half-assed shield tank and a half-assed armor tank.
In medieval terms, it's better to build a tall wall to defend your city, than two mediocre walls.
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Wayne Schlegel
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Posted - 2010.08.25 16:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Matalino Like the previous replies point out, fitting a dual tank uses valuable fitting slots.
Additionally, you will only be taking damage in one tank at a time. If you are taking damage in shields, you will not be taking damage in armour. If you are taking damage in armour, your shields are already gone. In theory, damage can bleed through your shields. In practice, the effect is insignificant.
As a further observation, with an active tank, you are often limited by the amount of capacitor that you have. If your shield booster drains all your cap, you will have none left to run your armour rep.
Because of these two factors it makes sense to plan to deal with damage with either shields or armour. It rarely makes sense to try asorbing damage in both. Extreme buffer tanks are an exception. If you can think of another very specific reason why you plan to take damage in both shields and armour, then it might be appropreate to dual tank. However, any such reason would need to be very specific to that situation. For general purposes, there is no reason to plan on a dual tank. It is more sensible to focus on a single tank.
Thank you very much Matalino ! Solved this problem for me in a short and understandable way. |
Silent Shaz
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Posted - 2010.08.27 04:55:00 -
[12]
Long story short: because of cumulative bonuses.
Most (all?) ships will only have bonuses for either shield or armour tanking, not both. Take a Merlin for example, which gives you 5% bonus to shield resistance per level of the Caldari Frigate skill. If you're going to fit say three defensive modules (out of the 2 low and 4 mid slots) are you better off putting all 3 modules into shields, which gain the benefit of the shield resistance bonus, or splitting 2/1 and using armour modules which don't get the benefit of the bonus?
Say you fit 2 shield expanders and a shield hardener - that hardener improves resistances on the whole expanded shield. If you fit one shield expander, one armour plate and a shield hardener, one half of your expanded tank isn't getting the benefit of the hardening.
Of course if you want to make a total gimp tank, then fill every mid and low slot with shield and armour tank modules, but it won't be useful for anything other than tanking.
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Toshiro GreyHawk
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Posted - 2010.08.27 05:44:00 -
[13]
The way it was explained to me ...
It's like you've got different aspects of the tank.
1) Resists that cause the enemy to inflict less damage on you. 2) Buffers - that give you more shield or armor 3) Boosters - that try to repair the damage the enemy has done.
If a ship has a built in strength in Shields or Mid slots - it is typically a Shield tanker.
If a ship has a built in strength in Armor or Low slots - it is typically an Armor tanker.
What you do - is to reinforce the thing that you are strongest in. You only have so much PG/CPU/CAP. It's better to put it all behind the thing you are strongest in - that spread some of it out to try and protect an area where you are weak.
If you have a good enough tank - the enemy can not break your it. What that means is - they are shooting you - but not making any progress towards destroying you.
Since Armor and Shields are taken in turn - anything done for one - doesn't help the other. PG/CPU/CAP devoted to providing support for your weaker defense - takes away from support for your stronger defense - making it that much harder to have an unbreakable tank.
Of course ... no tank is impervious to an infinite amount of damage. If they throw enough DPS at you - they'll get you no matter how strong a tank you have. The PG/CPU/CAP of your ship - is finite - whereas the number of enemy ships that can attack you ... well ... the theoretical limit on that has more to do with the games ability to support however many ships in one system ... but ... the game can support plenty enough to blow the strongest cap to shreds if they all gang up on you.
So here - if you're being over whelmed - you don't have an unbreakable tank - but the stronger it is - the longer you will last.
So - what you do - is put everything you have into your strength - and fight until that is gone - then it's time to either run away or blow up. Mixing tanks - as has been said - pretty much gives you two crappy tanks instead one good one.
Also as mentioned - there are special purpose tanks that are an exception.
One thing I have done ... when using a Catalyst to run missions - is to put a Civilian Shield Booster on it. This isn't part of the ships tank. It's just there to boost the shields back up a little quicker before I go on to the next zone - after the battle is over. Frequently on Low Level Missions - I incur no armor damage - so all I need to do before proceeding is either sit and wait for my shields to top back out (which I don't actually have to do but which I consider good practice) - or run that little Civilian Shield Booster to speed up the process. Of course - here - I'm expending cap that will have to be restored to do that.
Now - if I have the PG/CPU/CAP to stick something better in that slot than a Civilian Shield Booster - I do it. But if I don't - then rather than just leave the slot empty - I put something in it of marginal use. The Civilian Shield Booster - again - is NOT part of the tank. The tank is an armor tank. If I run into any real opposition - I'm not running that Civilian Shield Booster trying to defend my ship with it. I let my shields go until it is time to start the armor tank.
So - there's exceptions to the rule - but before you go doing things like that - understand what you're doing and why you're doing it.
Orbiting vs. Kiting Faction Schools |
Jose Black
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Posted - 2010.08.27 08:37:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jose Black on 27/08/2010 08:43:46 Tanking strategies consists of both having a reasonably high damage resistance and then either repair the incoming damage for long enough to destroy whatever opponents or in case of buffer tanks just have enough buffer to last long enough.
PVP fights usually mean heavy damage over a rather short period of time while PVE mean comparably low damage over longer periods of time. Buffer tanks are very common in PVP because you won't be able to rep up anyways, but still want to last as long as possible - preferably longer than whatever you're shooting.
At least for non buffer tanks you'd need the slots no directly involved in tanking for supporting your tanking ability. Thats using cap rechargers in mids when armor tanking and power diagnostic systems in low slots when (active) shield tanking. For passive shield tanks (using the improved recharge rate of shields) you'd want shield power relays in low slots.
Edit: As already said you just don't have the cap to do make use of a dual tank:
Shield boosters use lots of cap to have a very good repair rate - as long as the cap lasts. They need a fit that pretty much gimps the rest of the abilities and/or pricey equipment to run continuously. That means if your shield tank fails you simply don't have any cap left to run your armor tank.
If you argue your shield tank just couldn't keep up with the incoming damage you a) are doing your shield tank wrong and b) your armor tank won't save you either. If it did why did you have the shield tank at all?
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Dr Sheepbringer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.08.28 11:12:00 -
[15]
With baits ships it's ok to dual tank. Gives even more WTF?! moments to the attackers, but there is a downside. You need to have a ship that has shield tanking as priority. When a attacker takes the bait and finds himself a shield tanking armor ship...he knows something is wrong. When he attacks a shield taking ship, he knows it will tank. He doesn't know that the armor under the shield will also tank. When it goes to armor your backup should be there. Stop whining. |
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