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Kairo Jaide
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Posted - 2010.08.30 13:54:00 -
[1]
Hello S&I. I have a few questions for you guys, and any and all help would be much appreciated.
First let me start by saying this is an alt, and I'm a player of about 16m SP who has been playing for just over a year. I'm tired of mining, and I'm tired of missioning, and I have begun to do my homework on starting up in S&D.
I have about 3b ready to invest, and here is my plan of action so far.
1)I have paid for and received corp standings, and am about to launch my high sec POS for research. Right now I'm attempting to look into possibly profitable BPOs to invest in and research.
2)I have a research alt currently farming datacores from 5 L4 agents, and has the skills to undertake my BPO research as well.
3)My main will be doing both manufacturing and invention.
4)I have a few close friends that are going to be helping with logistics and as market warriors.
Anyways, I have been doing a LOT of reading lately, and have some questions.
1. What is the best way to go about researching what will be profitable item choices, in terms of both BPOs and produced goods? I'm not asking for trade secrets, just strategies. Is there a good tool for this or do I simply start calculating research costs, production costs, and item price/volume for every item I'm interested in?
2. What good tools/applications would you recommend? There seems like there's a metric ****-ton out there. Any favourites among the S&I crowd?
3. Is the BPO/BPC market too bloated now, considering that more researched BPOs must be arriving on the market than leaving them? Would I be better to skip the POS and just buy already researched BPOs? Or is seling BPO/BPCs still profitable?
Thanks.
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Kairo Jaide
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Posted - 2010.08.30 14:50:00 -
[2]
One more question as well. Is there somewhere that offers an overview of the entire EVE economy?
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Gunboat Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.08.30 15:09:00 -
[3]
Invention Spreadsheets (Self made)
All you really need.
--signature-- F.CS boost: Here Vid: Link |
Kara Vamberfeld
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Posted - 2010.08.30 19:52:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Kara Vamberfeld on 30/08/2010 19:52:56 Edited by: Kara Vamberfeld on 30/08/2010 19:52:21 BPC production for sales isn't all that profitable when stacked against POS fuel cost unless you have a complete Cap Ship BPO set and can offer sets. even then you'll need several of the ship BPOs themselves just to match up with the part BPC production. Since it sounds like your not close to this type of industry yet, lets just set it aside.
T2 invention and production. My suggestion is to look at your market very closely and like the above poster mentioned, spreadsheet everything. Include everything that requires isk, would sell for isk or can be quantified in isk and cost it against your sales. Datacrores included. If you intend to sell in Empire be prepared to play the market .01 isk game with (preferably) a market alt. If you intend to sell to the 0.0 market look at the costs of transportation (isotopes and Liquid Ozone) and cost them against sales as well.
Take a very hard look at your skills. If you have anything lower than level 4 in any skill required to invent an item, don't even bother. It will cost too much and you'll end up producing at a net loss. If you are going to produce mods, before you toss in your first invention job, make sure racial Encryption is 5 and the supporting skills are 4 at least. My invention alt has roughly 25.5mil SP in Science (63mil SP total) and I am finally happy with the margins my invention are producing, but then again, I'm an isk-w h0 r3. Max run t1 copies for mod, drone and ammo invention. 1-for-1 copies for ship invention unless you are using decryptors. If you do ships, max the invention skills out first before trying even one. A pro-tip for a beginner, look carefully at t2 drones at mission hubs.
Invention is a 5 step process that can have a huge initial investment overhead. Invest in at least a few monthes fuel for your POS. Don't be dumb and lay down a non-Caldari POS. They are the best for invention in high-sec due to the greater amount of CPU available to run moar labs. I prefer Dread Gurista towers for fuel savings. Lay down two if you can afford it while you have the standings to give you room for growth, a small perhaps and a med or large and just keep the inactive one offline. Fuel it and death-star the weapons then offline the unused tower, while maintaining at least two weeks fuel in it in the case of a wardec.
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Shinde Kudasai
Mercurial Freight
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Posted - 2010.08.30 23:28:00 -
[5]
A good hauling service never hurts to have, too :P
Freight - the final frontier!
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mista fear
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Posted - 2010.08.31 05:09:00 -
[6]
since we are all useing alts here, i will use mine o.0
i have never found produceing copies to be profitable. unless im selling packs to someone to invent them.
i have found invention to be teh most profitable thing to do with highsec pos's
and yes, spreadsheets FTJW (for the jesus win)
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Halborn
Celtic Technologies Inc.
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Posted - 2010.08.31 07:37:00 -
[7]
I think Kara you are a bit overexaggerating the Invention. There is like 1% if that from Encryption IV to V. Really its not worth training many science to V unless you have nothing else to train or you need a heck of alot of datacores and you want to try and get them from R&D agents.
As for the POS make sure you offline anything that isn't in use. Also have a fair bit of defences (ECM and Hardneres) offlined so if you get wardecced you can just online them but also if there are visible defences there is less tendency to try take it down if its not worth it.
Make sure you triple check your math and that you've covered every cost. Setting up a semi-large T2 production chain can cost up to a billion to initially set up so you dont want to miss something that can cause the whole thing to be unprofitable a month down the line.
Also I would suggest a bit of trading in the item you are planning to produce. Being able to gauge how quick or slow an item sells will give you an idea how much you can produce and more importantly if it will sell. Numbers can only tell you so much actually feeling the market by buy low sell high will really help to know your market.
Most of all Good luck on your venture! ------------------------------
CEO Celtic Technologies Inc. |
clixoras
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Posted - 2010.08.31 08:05:00 -
[8]
1+2 Eve-Meep gives you a general indication of cost to produce. Enter the average sell price of the item in your region and you'll have an indication of profit per batch/item.
For which items to produce it's just a matter at looking at demand.
3. My opinion is that bpc's selling is a marginal business (looking at the contract prices for t1 bpc's). Invention is more profitable but make sure you got the numbers right. For invention (and all related activities) it's well advised to use a POS.
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Kairo Jaide
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Posted - 2010.09.03 06:00:00 -
[9]
Thanks everyone.
EVE Meep is awesome.
Just finished running my calculations and I've settled on a product. I won't say what, but you can make A LOT of ISK with enough investment capital!
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Effin'Dog
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Posted - 2010.09.03 15:53:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Effin''Dog on 03/09/2010 15:53:24
Originally by: Kairo Jaide Thanks everyone.
EVE Meep is awesome.
Just finished running my calculations and I've settled on a product. I won't say what, but you can make A LOT of ISK with enough investment capital!
Double check, triple check and quadruple check your math. Its always advisable, saved me a couple of times :)
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Emporer Norton
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Posted - 2010.09.03 16:12:00 -
[11]
Also when you look to see if an item is profitable I always go by buy orders since if is a high enough quantity and price for buy orders can make profits with just those Or put up sell orders for bigger profit
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.09.03 18:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kairo Jaide Thanks everyone.
EVE Meep is awesome.
Just finished running my calculations and I've settled on a product. I won't say what, but you can make A LOT of ISK with enough investment capital!
Make sure you have properly researched the market. First BPO I invested in was 180 mil- run 24/7 and sold at market prices, it would have made me 3200 units at something like 160 mil a day.
The problem?
... the total daily movement in Jita was about 300. On a very good day.
I still have the BPO- haven't made enough profit off it to make back the NPC cost. Admittedly, I kinda forgot about it after it took 2 weeks to move my first batch of product, but..... yeah.
Check volumes, or you'll be sorry.
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Kairo Jaide
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Posted - 2010.09.04 07:23:00 -
[13]
OK one more question.
To protect the identity of my product these are hypothetical numbers.
Let's say 500-1000 of X sell a day, and I'm producing 50 a day on average. Is 5-10% of the Jita market-share doable with minimal daily interaction of the market save for a Sunday of movie-watching/market pvping? Or will I have to be more involved/make less product?
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Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.04 09:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kairo Jaide OK one more question.
To protect the identity of my product these are hypothetical numbers.
Let's say 500-1000 of X sell a day, and I'm producing 50 a day on average. Is 5-10% of the Jita market-share doable with minimal daily interaction of the market save for a Sunday of movie-watching/market pvping? Or will I have to be more involved/make less product?
How much work it takes depends really on you, how you setup your operation. Wast quatities of materials can be courier contracted to outside houling corp for example, etc....
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.09.04 16:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kairo Jaide OK one more question.
To protect the identity of my product these are hypothetical numbers.
Let's say 500-1000 of X sell a day, and I'm producing 50 a day on average. Is 5-10% of the Jita market-share doable with minimal daily interaction of the market save for a Sunday of movie-watching/market pvping? Or will I have to be more involved/make less product?
Depends on the market, the price you are looking for, and how long you are willing (or able) to wait for your stuff to sell. Selling to buy orders is about as close to guaranteed as you can get. Selling @ moving price is pretty good. Selling at -.01 can take a lot of watching, depending on the market.
If you can check your orders at least once or twice a day and can wait a few days to get paid at any one time, you'll PROBABLY be ok.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.09.04 18:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Berikath
Make sure you have properly researched the market. First BPO I invested in was 180 mil- run 24/7 and sold at market prices, it would have made me 3200 units at something like 160 mil a day.
The problem?
... the total daily movement in Jita was about 300. On a very good day.
Hmm.. Some flavor of bomb? --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Berikath
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Posted - 2010.09.04 19:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Berikath
Make sure you have properly researched the market. First BPO I invested in was 180 mil- run 24/7 and sold at market prices, it would have made me 3200 units at something like 160 mil a day.
The problem?
... the total daily movement in Jita was about 300. On a very good day.
Hmm.. Some flavor of bomb?
Considering I haven't made my money back, it was definitely a bomb. A bomb right in my wallet.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.09.04 19:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Berikath
Originally by: SurrenderMonkey
Originally by: Berikath
Make sure you have properly researched the market. First BPO I invested in was 180 mil- run 24/7 and sold at market prices, it would have made me 3200 units at something like 160 mil a day.
The problem?
... the total daily movement in Jita was about 300. On a very good day.
Hmm.. Some flavor of bomb?
Considering I haven't made my money back, it was definitely a bomb. A bomb right in my wallet.
Research it and resell the BPO, you should be able to at least break even. --------------- Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Kairo Jaide
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Posted - 2010.09.06 12:44:00 -
[19]
Alright, I've ran into some problems.
Good thing everything is still on paper! ;)
How in the heck do you guys deal with the need T1 BPC's for invention?
I have the skills to have 10 inventions going, and 10 production jobs going on two different characters. My manufacturing character was going to look after the copying, but even with a Caldari POS he can only make 3 copies in ~5 days; and that doesn't keep up with the rest of the cycle at all. Is this a soft cap of sorts?
I want to avoid scaling the operation down, because with three of us its only really worth it at max profit. Since there isn't really any 0/0/1 copies of the BPC on the contracts market, is my only real option to turn to a research alliance and rent a few slots or hire a freelance researcher to pick up my slack?
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Kairo Jaide
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Posted - 2010.09.06 12:51:00 -
[20]
I might have just answered my own question.
If at my POS, I anchor 3 advanced labs I would have 9 copy slots and then could invent in the station.
Would that work?
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RaTTuS
BIG Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.09.06 13:27:00 -
[21]
3 advanced labs gives 3 copy slots (0.65 speed bonus) 2 ME slots (0.75 speed bonus) 2 invention slots (0.5 speed bonus) --
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.09.07 13:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: RaTTuS 3 advanced labs gives 3 copy slots (0.65 speed bonus) 2 ME slots (0.75 speed bonus) 2 invention slots (0.5 speed bonus)
... each. So 9,6,6.
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Desigre
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.07 13:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kairo Jaide I might have just answered my own question.
If at my POS, I anchor 3 advanced labs I would have 9 copy slots and then could invent in the station.
Would that work?
Or you could add one mobile lab too and get 5 invention slots with 0.5 time multiplier, your all ready paying for pos anyways, so why not take full advantage of it.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.09.07 15:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Desigre
Originally by: Kairo Jaide I might have just answered my own question.
If at my POS, I anchor 3 advanced labs I would have 9 copy slots and then could invent in the station.
Would that work?
Or you could add one mobile lab too and get 5 invention slots with 0.5 time multiplier, your all ready paying for pos anyways, so why not take full advantage of it.
Maybe he wants a partial deathstar setup for some reason?
But yeah... using more CPU/Powergrid on your POS does increase fuel costs (in isotopes, as I recall). Thing is, you're gonna be paying something like 90% of max fuel costs just having the tower up, so it really only makes sense to have it fully utilized (even if you need to share it or rent out space).
Again though, a POS is expensive. If you're looking to make money right away, it is probably not the best route to go.
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Athar Mu
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.09.08 01:34:00 -
[25]
I found when I moved into more than 2 chars (5+) doing invention and production, that I needed a char dedicated to copying the BPO's so I had enough to keep my invention going with no breaks. Now I am using 10+ chars (yes you read that right) I need 2 of these to make enough copies and I need nearly 20 copy slots on my POS.
It is something that is not mentioned in any of the guides for invention that you need copy alts as well as invention and production (a copy alt can be a production alt as well) alts to make invention work on a larger scale.
Also I would recommend that you have more than one item you are inventing. As there are lots of inventors and they constantly change (well some of them do) which items they are inventing when one item isn't as profitable as it was. If you don't constantly check the market and use your spreadsheet to keep track of your profit you will find that you will end up making a loss and messing everything up. Diversifying is the key to constant profit.
Plus don't over produce an item, if in Jita (or your market hub) on average 100 units sell a day, don't produce more than 50 in a day (unless you are on Eve 23/7) as you will struggle to sell them all. If you do overproduce, then think about taking your extra's to Amarr (12 jumps from Jita) and sell there, then reduce the amount you are producing, otherwise you will end up crashing the market when you are trying to sell too many (trust me I've done that). Try not to sell to buy orders but sometimes its the only way to get rid of your stock when you over produce.
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Kairo Jaide
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Posted - 2010.09.08 04:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Athar Mu I found when I moved into more than 2 chars (5+) doing invention and production, that I needed a char dedicated to copying the BPO's so I had enough to keep my invention going with no breaks. Now I am using 10+ chars (yes you read that right) I need 2 of these to make enough copies and I need nearly 20 copy slots on my POS.
It is something that is not mentioned in any of the guides for invention that you need copy alts as well as invention and production (a copy alt can be a production alt as well) alts to make invention work on a larger scale.
Also I would recommend that you have more than one item you are inventing. As there are lots of inventors and they constantly change (well some of them do) which items they are inventing when one item isn't as profitable as it was. If you don't constantly check the market and use your spreadsheet to keep track of your profit you will find that you will end up making a loss and messing everything up. Diversifying is the key to constant profit.
Plus don't over produce an item, if in Jita (or your market hub) on average 100 units sell a day, don't produce more than 50 in a day (unless you are on Eve 23/7) as you will struggle to sell them all. If you do overproduce, then think about taking your extra's to Amarr (12 jumps from Jita) and sell there, then reduce the amount you are producing, otherwise you will end up crashing the market when you are trying to sell too many (trust me I've done that). Try not to sell to buy orders but sometimes its the only way to get rid of your stock when you over produce.
Thank-you, that was very helpful.
At the moment I have two characters. One copy/manufacture character and one invention character. I'm going to get around to making my own spread sheet calc where I input current prices and it will tell me my minimum sell price, so hopefully that will be fine for the first bit. I plan on diversifying after a month or two of getting comfortable with the process; and of course training the skills.
I had assumed that a small POS held a max of three labs, but I'll check again on what I can fit in there.
Thanks.
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Kairo Jaide
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Posted - 2010.09.09 03:05:00 -
[27]
Alright. A few more questions.
1. Defense
I'm going to go with a medium POS, to allow room for me to expand when I'm able.
With an eventual total of 6 labs and one hangar, I have maxed out my CPU.
I'm assuming that in the event I get attacked I can un-anchor the labs and put up ECM/disruptor batteries?
And with a Caldari tower should I be using missiles and on-lining projectiles if I go into reinforced? Or just don't bother with missiles at all?
Finally how many guns/ECM/hardners should I have anchored but offline? A whole CPU/powergrid's worth?
Thanks.
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Berikath
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Posted - 2010.09.09 19:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kairo Jaide Alright. A few more questions.
1. Defense
I'm going to go with a medium POS, to allow room for me to expand when I'm able.
With an eventual total of 6 labs and one hangar, I have maxed out my CPU.
I'm assuming that in the event I get attacked I can un-anchor the labs and put up ECM/disruptor batteries?
And with a Caldari tower should I be using missiles and on-lining projectiles if I go into reinforced? Or just don't bother with missiles at all?
Finally how many guns/ECM/hardners should I have anchored but offline? A whole CPU/powergrid's worth?
Thanks.
I haven't done a HUGE amount with POSes, but as I understand it here is how things sit...
1. A med POS really doesn't have the grid to deathstar it up enough to protect it against a determined attack. Given this, your best bet is to just make it annoying enough to kill that it won't be worth it for a BS gang to sit there and shoot it for hours... this means hardeners. The good news is, compared to labs/towers, hardeners are dirt cheap; like 4 mil a piece. I would suggest putting up as many labs as you can make use of now, then fill the rest of your grid with hardeners. As you need more labs, switch out some of the hardeners for more labs. The good news is if you only need a couple labs to start with, you can put enough hardeners in that nobody is really going to want to attack your POS- they have a LOT of shield, and lots of hardeners x lots of shield = TONS of EHP = not worth it to sit and shoot it for 12 or 16 hours.
2. There are different states for things on a POS; Unanchored, Anchored, and online. Unanchored = sitting in space, anchored = won't disappear, doesn't work, and doesn't take CPU/Grid, Online = won't disappear, works, takes CPU and grid. You only need to unanchor stuff if you're removing it from the POS, if you just need the grid/CPU you can offline stuff but leave it anchored (then it's faster to turn back on).
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ZeeOhSix
Blackwater Manufacturing and Logistics
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Posted - 2010.09.09 19:51:00 -
[29]
I just wanted to offer the thought that you look very carefully at the time required for your invention and manufacture cycles. Remember that you can stack jobs - this can make a huge difference. For example, I keep my relatively small number of invention slots stacked for a couple of days rather than buying more slots - I figure the closer I get to 24x7 utilization of the slots the better job I'm doing of maximizing the potential of the POS.
For defense, I have a "peace" configuration and a "war" configuration where I have defense structures anchored and ready - but offline. I keep just enough defense and ewar active to discourage casual plinkers, but the ability to semi-"****star" for a wardec by offlining production structures and onlining defense structures.
Temper all this with the reality that I'm a new POS owner :) The business of EVE is business!
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Aabcde
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Posted - 2010.09.09 23:24:00 -
[30]
Shield hardeners are great but don't forget ECM. Combine the two and no one will want to bother.
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