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Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 20:36:00 - [1] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 08/09/2010 20:45:22 I am offering my services as an auditor. What I bring to the table is years of real-world investment in biotech. Some larger companies but primarily startups and smaller (non-pinksheet) firms. I've also been involved in the energy industry as a risk-management and technical consultant for a variety of alternative power companies. Any audits I perform will consist of several steps: * Disqualification Pass. Has the person requesting the loan, or the bond manager, been involved in any shady dealings in the past? Is the toon a recent purchase? Has the toon bought or sold characters? If so, are any of these characters or "previous owners" affiliated in any way with scammers or cheats? If so, no deal and I won't get involved. This initial step will occur before any payment is delivered to me and is my personal bottom line-- in other words I'm not interested in working with borrowers who don't possess these very minimal qualifications. Also, the borrower's toon must be six months old and have a verifiable work history. * Business plan pass. I will expect a detailed written business plan (500 words or so) from the prospective borrower. This plan may be displayed publicly or I can keep it private. I will be analyzing the profitability of the fund or business. * API pass. I will be provided with the borrower's full API. I will be scrutinizing market orders, fund transfers and contracts. I will be scrutinizing the history and provenance of people providing fund transfers. I will be scrutinizing the security status and associations (alliance, corporate, killboard, etc) of the borrower's toon and all alts on the account and every account associated with the fund or instrument. Piracy will not be considered an automatic disqualifier but will inform my final risk judgement in the same way that a criminal record would apply to a prospective corporate financial officer. * Business network pass. Does the borrower have business references? Who works with the borrower? What firms does the borrower do business with and under what conditions? This will include a full employment background check. It will also include research into forum posts made by and concerning the borrower. At this point I will be issuing a numerical risk management score in the form of a percentage, in addition to a detailed summary of my findings. My fee will be 1% of the loan amount for a basic investment or loan. In other words, for a 1 billion ISK loan, I will be paid 10 million. This percentage will increase for more complex arrangements. My suggestion is that 50% of this amount be paid by the borrower and 50% by the lender to split the difference, or I will accept payment from an external impartial source. If a borrower fails any given pass to an egregious degree I do reserve the right to terminate the audit at that point and deliver a negative recommendation. The number I will be issuing should in no way be construed as a recommendation to buy, but simply as the opinion of a neutral observer with business experience. At the end of the day, the audit is just part of a process of due diligence and investment in noncollateralized or partially collateralized loans or funds should be the sole responsibility of the lender. Caveat emptor. My personal mindset tends overwhelmingly toward cynicism rather than naivete and therefore I will be making an effort to present my findings in a neutral manner. At the same time scammers fishing for free lunches shouldn't expect a free ride from me.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.08 20:51:00 - [2] It's nice that you (claim to) have real life experience, but what's your experience in EVE? Originally by: Jion Tichy At this point I will be issuing a numerical risk management score in the form of a percentage, in addition to a detailed summary of my findings. What does the percentage add to the detailed summary? Originally by: Jion Tichy My fee will be 1% of the loan amount for a basic investment or loan. Seems like a low amount for a lot of work. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:02:00 - [3] A guy starts a bond. His business is done at a low sec tower. He will in bring in a station in that solar system a lot of materials with a JF once a week and will daily haul them to the tower with an indy / transport. What will you make sure the guys does with the JF? And where should he have the POS for maximum indy safety? Another guy with a capitals BPC copy IPO wants has to have you check his hi sec POS setup, because investors want to be sure it's protected. You can find tons of stuff: faction tower, neuts, hardeners, guns, missile launchers, scramblers, you name them. What tells you that the guy is a noob? A third guy wants you to hold collateral for his bond. He needs to cover collateral for 3B so he offers 1,250,000 livestock. What do you tell him? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:13:00 - [4] Quote: It's nice that you (claim to) have real life experience, but what's your experience in EVE? Primarily trading. I realized pretty quickly that there are some annoying limitations and artificialities to the whole "pew pew" thing here, and I'm risk-averse anyway so it ended up not appealing to me. Missions and mining also don't appeal to me. Beancounting does appeal to me. Quote: What does the percentage add to the detailed summary? Part of the reason for auditors is for attention conservation. Someone may not want to read a detailed account of associations, fund transfers, et cetera. Or they may skim it and read portions in detail based on a breakout summary or abstract. One thing a lender who didn't have much time might do would be to come up with a comfortable risk threshold for a given amount of money. Then they might get one or even several audits from a number of parties, each providing a percentage or other numerical value. When all the audits were delivered, the decision might be taken primarily on an average of the risk percentage numbers provided by multiple auditors. Quote: Seems like a low amount for a lot of work. Do you suggest that I charge more? If the total return on a fund is expected to be 6% per month, is it really fair for an auditor to charge 33% of that? Perhaps the prospective borrower could pay. If I'm doing larger funds, they will be more complicated to one degree or another, but presumably there is an economy of scale at some point such that 1% of the total fund amount would pay me well for my time. Do you think I should ask for 2%? I am a beancounter and I enjoy this sort of thing. I've exposed liars, shills and con men in real life, putting in many hours of work for no pay whatsoever, as well as in the service of paying employers. In one case the person initially paying me was the person who I exposed as a fraud. I did it because I enjoy doing it. I enjoyed the process. I enjoyed holding the culprits' feet to the fire, until they were literally begging for mercy, though I don't see the point of doing that so much in here. I'll just issue my opinions and let them speak for themselves.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:16:00 - [5] Could you please reply to my questions above? Because EvE does not just need beancounting auditors. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:18:00 - [6] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 08/09/2010 21:26:23 Nice presentation. I am not sure if giving out some percentage is such a good idea - if it's meant to indicate the probability of business failure/scam it would be worthless in so far as people won't properly understand it ("if the investment has a 95% chance of success there is absolutely no way we could have landed in the remaining 5%" - have heard statements coming down to this all the time in the aftermath of the financial crisis) and judging by the current amount of audited offerings your sample sizes would be so small that there would be likely no way to discern whether your underlying model works well or not. However if it's just meant to be a "<x>% of checks passed" score, it won't be too different from the multicolored flags MD has already come to love and/or hate (although by weighting the different criteria on your checklist you would take some interpretation off the shoulders of your investors). edit: also please consider that by making it easier for investors to just skim your reports and trust your conclusions as opposed to the other extreme of providing no conclusions at all and just presenting the data you could gather in a friendly formatting naturally a much larger part of the blame will come to rest with you if one of the offerings you gave a positive review happens to scam. I have doubts that your payment schemes would survive the test of practice - 1% sounds too low for small offerings and the 50/50 split suffers from lenders not being determined at the point you do the audit (and of them pulling out if they don't like what the results of your audit might indicate). Also, you should take care not to have a significant financial interest in getting an offering to launch as opposed to (effectively) shutting it down due to worrying audit results. The other stuff about looking for older audit reports by Kazzac, Kazuo, VV and Varo for inspiration has been repeated time and again during the last few days.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:29:00 - [7] Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 08/09/2010 21:29:52 Originally by: Jion Tichy Do you suggest that I charge more? For large offerings 1% might be ok but for the majority of small offerings you are getting paid for assisting the business managers in the rep-grinding game and that part is certainly worth more than just a few million ISK. View it like not just getting your cut of that offerings profits but also of all the subsequent ones your audit report has helped to make possible.^^
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:44:00 - [8] Quote: A guy starts a bond. His business is done at a low sec tower. He will in bring in a station in that solar system a lot of materials with a JF once a week and will daily haul them to the tower with an indy / transport. What will you make sure the guys does with the JF? And where should he have the POS for maximum indy safety? One recommendation that I might make is that he stock the materials in a cloaked Orca instead of putting them in a station, since station exits are a severe problem even when it's not you they're looking for. That's just an idea though. If by where he should have the POS you are asking what lowsec system, I would suggest deep lowsec to lessen the risk of gatecamps and other opportunistic piracy. Quote: Another guy with a capitals BPC copy IPO wants has to have you check his hi sec POS setup, because investors want to be sure it's protected. You can find tons of stuff: faction tower, neuts, hardeners, guns, missile launchers, scramblers, you name them. What tells you that the guy is a noob? First, I am not a POS warfare expert, so I would not necessarily want to make recommendations regarding POS defense setups. There are two other questions regarding the business. First, are you referring to a BPO copying operation, a research operation or a manufacture operation? If you're talking about a manufacture operation, the problem inherent with cap manufacture in hisec should be obvious. If it's a research or copy operation I would be very skeptical about doing this in hisec because of the possibility, again, of opportunistic wardecs. A tower that mixes guns and missile launchers is looking to me like a failfit because the different types of weapon that you mentioned-- since racial and faction control towers offer bonuses to one weapon type or another, mixing them would be a problem. In this sort of situation, if I were to make a recommendation (which again I would not be doing), I would recommend that the POS owner go for a dckstar setup to maximize the time it would take to take down the POS, with merc corp support in an active maneuver defense role to assault and attrit the POS-bashing team. Again, for even a research POS, I'd recommend that it not be sited in hisec in the first place-- instead I might recommend that it be placed in a c1 or c2 wormhole for reasons of defensibility. Quote:* A third guy wants you to hold collateral for his bond. He needs to cover collateral for 3B so he offers 1,250,000 livestock. What do you tell him? Well, for one thing, that's undercollateralizing the loan by almost 1/3. For another thing, livestock is not exactly a commodity that lends itself to any sort of liquidity. In other words, not enough of it moves for the investor to be able to cash in the collateral in anything close to a reasonable timeframe. I would find him extremely questionable to say the least-- personally I would not get anywhere near a person who wanted to play that sort of game and I would recommend that investors "steer" clear as well.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 08/09/2010 21:54:13 First reply: the guy has a JF and not an Orca. What the auditor has immediately to check is whether the guy is basing his operations in a kick off station or not. If yes, then he's going to risk the JF a lot. Furthermore he won't risk losing the indy (edit: well, he won't easily lose it) if you made sure his POS is anchored to the moon directly in the vector of the station exit. This is a quite common occurrency and this kind of setup is known as 101 of POS placement by many low sec corps. Second reply: no further info needed. The guy is (also) using missiles, a big NO for a POS, since they use CPU and therefore get disabled exactly when you need them. Third reply: that's a decent reply, but the most obvious alarm bell would be the livestock price is topping something akin to an head and shoulders pattern, that is something that soon will see the item price drop like a rock. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.08 21:53:00 - [10] Edited by: Estel Arador on 08/09/2010 21:54:10 From the answer you gave to my question I would've guessed that you lack experience; from the answers you gave to Vaerah Vahrokha's question I know that you lack experience. I had no idea that the answers to those questions could be botched so completely. Suggesting to move an operation funded by investors to a wormhole to make it safer, was that a joke? Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:00:00 - [11] Quote: From the answer you gave to my question I would've guessed that you lack experience; from the answers you gave to Vaerah Vahrokha's question I know that you lack experience. I had no idea that the answers to those questions could be botched so completely. Suggesting to move an operation funded by investors to a wormhole to make it safer, was that a joke? Your opinion is appreciated.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: From the answer you gave to my question I would've guessed that you lack experience; from the answers you gave to Vaerah Vahrokha's question I know that you lack experience. I had no idea that the answers to those questions could be botched so completely. Suggesting to move an operation funded by investors to a wormhole to make it safer, was that a joke? Your opinion is appreciated. If this is sincere, then you have hope. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Jion Tichy Your opinion is appreciated. That's nice, as my opinion is based on 4 years of ingame experience and, perhaps more importantly, 4 years of forum whoring (2 of which on MD). On a sidenote, what is your relationship to Janya Rykayn? Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:21:00 - [14] Quote: That's nice, as my opinion is based on 4 years of ingame experience and, perhaps more importantly, 4 years of forum whoring (2 of which on MD). Just a general rule of thumb for your forum whoring: you will accomplish much more with basic civility and politeness than with curtness and rudeness. If you want anything from me you will need to be polite, and frankly I don't care who you are in the MMO. Your behavior is consistently out of line. Just a sidenote: What's your relationship to Bad Bobby?
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:27:00 - [15] Originally by: Estel Arador Originally by: Jion Tichy Your opinion is appreciated. That's nice, as my opinion is based on 4 years of ingame experience and, perhaps more importantly, 4 years of forum whoring (2 of which on MD). On a sidenote, what is your relationship to Janya Rykayn? Trust is very much linked to reputation in the MD, and right now you're stacking yours (currently zero) up against VV's. Deal with the questions, respond in honesty, learn, improve, succeed. Projects Blog
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 22:30:00 - [16] Hexxx, any questions you have or suggestions, I will be happy to hear them.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.08 23:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Jion Tichy Just a general rule of thumb for your forum whoring: you will accomplish much more with basic civility and politeness than with curtness and rudeness. It's a bit more complicated than that actually. Likeability is a factor in communication (/persuasion), but certainly not the only one, and likeability is only in part determined by things like civility and politeness. Then there's the matter of what I'm trying to accomplish - this is an open forum and my aims might vary from trying to convince you, to trying to convince other regulars, to trying to convince lurkers. I'd argue that each would require a different communication strategy. Finally there's the context in which this conversation is taking place. This is MD, you can count on me being more direct in my communication here than I am for instance in the New Citizens section of the forum. Originally by: Jion Tichy Just a sidenote: What's your relationship to Bad Bobby? I bought 3 (three) T4U shares from him, that's the full extent of my dealings with him. I asked about Janya Rykayn because she's the founder of the corporation you're in and she's been posting on MD recently. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 23:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Vaerah Third reply: that's a decent reply, but the most obvious alarm bell would be the livestock price is topping something akin to an head and shoulders pattern, that is something that soon will see the item price drop like a rock. In many cases technical analysis is akin to witchcraft. I mean, I know Head and Shoulders and a number of other patterns but there are numerous factors that come to bear in RL stock trading that don't exist in the game, and so I'd be much more concerned with "world events." I certainly wouldn't be touching livestock but that's more because of the recent precipitous rise, I'd be concerned that it's highly overvalued and that upcoming changes might even cause an overcorrection. But if someone offered livestock as collateral my main cause of concern wouldn't be the chart :)
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2010.09.08 23:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Jion Tichy Hexxx, any questions you have or suggestions, I will be happy to hear them. Not to sound elitist (I'm sure someone will jump on this and call me elitist anyway), I actually wrote about principles based auditing using a similar methodology a year and a half ago. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=989976 Also, for anyone calling me elitist...I refer you to my general response. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1205233&page=1#3 Projects Blog
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 23:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Estel It's a bit more complicated than that actually. Likeability is a factor in communication (/persuasion), but certainly not the only one, and likeability is only in part determined by things like civility and politeness. Then there's the matter of what I'm trying to accomplish - this is an open forum and my aims might vary from trying to convince you, to trying to convince other regulars, to trying to convince lurkers. I'd argue that each would require a different communication strategy. Finally there's the context in which this conversation is taking place. This is MD, you can count on me being more direct in my communication here than I am for instance in the New Citizens section of the forum. It's obvious that you're positively motivated. One way that I judge character is by observing how people treat individuals who can do nothing for them, such as waiters. This is a very powerful measuring device and never seems to lie. For me, politeness is an end in and of itself and I try to be polite regardless of the circumstances. Quote: I asked about Janya Rykayn because she's the founder of the corporation you're in and she's been posting on MD recently. Janya is my former CEO. The reason that I'm still in the corp is because the tax rate is zero. As far as I can tell the corp is completely nonfunctional but that's neither here nor there. From what I can tell the people I knew in corp no longer play. But my gameplay is almost 100% solitary and I am easily annoyed by chat, so from my perspective I don't see the point of leaving, or of staying.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.08 23:42:00 - [21] Quote: Not to sound elitist (I'm sure someone will jump on this and call me elitist anyway), I actually wrote about principles based auditing using a similar methodology a year and a half ago. I don't think that sounded elitist. It's actually pretty standard and obvious risk management (6-Sigma, CARVER, etc all work on similar principles...) All in all it's just due diligence. The auditors do the due diligence, they package it up and report the results. Then the investors don't listen and they invest anyway. Everyone loses piles of dough except the auditor, whose only duty at that point is to refrain from ever, ever saying "I told you so."
Cat IntheBox	Posted - 2010.09.09 02:12:00 - [22] I could see how a third party auditor giving a report of a bond issuer's history can be seen as a reinforcement of the issuer's legitimacy to the community. The only matter is the trust that the auditor acts a true third party, which is a matter that, in the end, can only be taken on faith first, reputation second.
Momus Maximus	Posted - 2010.09.09 02:41:00 - [23] Edited by: Momus Maximus on 09/09/2010 02:44:51 Edited by: Momus Maximus on 09/09/2010 02:42:21 Jion: I would recommend against having a disqualification policy of that nature. The only reason why you should disqualify yourself from an audit is if you find that you are personally not qualified to audit the type/size/etc business in question, not because of any assumed indications of scam. The main reason why I say this is because, by doing so, you directly tie your role to that of a scam-preventer. By saying "I weed out potential scammers with the methods outlined in my disqualification policy," you are necessarily claiming responsibility if an offer passes this policy, but still ultimately becomes a scam. The best way to handle your duties is simply not to come into it with any illusion that you can detect scam. It's better to have a disclaimer which says something along the lines of "This audit is not a guarantee against scam. It is merely an assessment of the business acument of the bond/IPO offerer, and of the veracity of his/her public claims concerning the offer." Only if, during an audit, you find absolute, direct proof of a scam is it your responsibility to say anything about a scam (and, of course, provide clear evidence to support that claim, via screenshots, etc). Otherwise, stick to an unbiased reporting of facts, such as a simple statement about the character's provenance, age, skills, profitability, contract history, etc. You really don't want to link your profession, in any way, to the prevention of scam, because ultimately, an audit can never make positive guarantees in that regard. In other words, you only deal in information that you can positively verify (i.e. "He says he's been making X gains in station trading, and the numbers clearly demonstrate he has made those gains").
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 03:20:00 - [24] Originally by: Jion Tichy What I bring to the table is years of real-world investment in biotech. Some larger companies but primarily startups and smaller (non-pinksheet) firms. I've also been involved in the energy industry as a risk-management and technical consultant for a variety of alternative power companies. Your claimed experience is irrelevant. It cannot be substantiated. Your EVE and MD experience are relevant. Unfortunately, you have no MD experience, and your responses do not inspire confidence in your EVE experience. Quote: Any audits I perform will consist of several steps:... Far too complicated. Keep it simple. Quote: I will be making an effort to present my findings in a neutral manner. Not good enough. You have to be neutral. Quote: If it's a research or copy operation I would be very skeptical about doing this in hisec because of the possibility, again, of opportunistic wardecs. Again, for even a research POS, I'd recommend that it not be sited in hisec in the first place-- instead I might recommend that it be placed in a c1 or c2 wormhole for reasons of defensibility. And that is just downright idiotic, and demonstrates a total lack of knowledge of POSs. Here's the thing. Most startup bonds are plain vanilla trading bonds. You do not need to be an expert in RL trading of any ilk, let alone the esoteric crap. All startup bonds require you to act as a PI looking for signs of a scammer. The financial input required is minimal. Before you go any further and make more of an ass of yourself, read past audits, spend some time posting sensibly in MD - then propose yourself as an auditor.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.09.09 07:06:00 - [25] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 09/09/2010 07:09:57 Auditors are trusted to be honest and competent. That's stupid but there seems to be no practicable way around it. An incompetent auditor might botch several audits before MD starts to take notice of his incompetence (as a significant part of the stuff you are expected to check will never find its way into your audit reports). Having an incompetent or rogue auditor in MD could wreak far more havoc than having a few extra scams due to the lack of auditors. Not so much in ISK lost but in damage to the whole idea of auditing and the health of the market in MD. With this thread you are not only asking for employment but also for the equivalent of a security clearance. Originally by: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1376243&page=2#48 [...] the point is that the idea of applying real-world morality to a game is beyond bizarre.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 07:32:00 - [26] Quote: In many cases technical analysis is akin to witchcraft. I mean, I know Head and Shoulders and a number of other patterns but there are numerous factors that come to bear in RL stock trading that don't exist in the game Two different TA approaches made by two different persons have shown thru a number of pages that there are surprisingly many similarities between RL commodity markets and EvE. Sure in EvE there are wars and patches. But in RL there are wars and continents economy abrupt changes. And in both there is the mindset of supply and demand, usually focused at easy to recall round numbers. But let's forget about this. A quick glance shows an item near the top of the top of a yearly chart, and with low volume (ie losing interest). It does not take rocket science or TA to figure out what's next. Quote: All in all it's just due diligence. The auditors do the due diligence, they package it up and report the results. Then the investors don't listen and they invest anyway. Everyone loses piles of dough except the auditor, whose only duty at that point is to refrain from ever, ever saying "I told you so." This is very true, you can readily find examples of people blaming (EvE) auditors for every evil, when they are the ones getting goaded into investing into not audited or classed as "very high risk" ventures like they are putting money in a safe. Quote: The main reason why I say this is because, by doing so, you directly tie your role to that of a scam-preventer. By saying "I weed out potential scammers with the methods outlined in my disqualification policy," you are necessarily claiming responsibility if an offer passes this policy, but still ultimately becomes a scam I always put copious amounts of disclaimers exactly for that. I focus on studying the investee business plan and compatibility the most, I believe audits (necessarily covering also business analysis in most cases) can give good indications about probabilities of success and forecasting approximate returns. As for the "security" part, we are left to deal with the little EvE gives us, it's impossible to detect the outlier scammer, ie the exceptional one going the extra mile into building a fake "looking legit" business or downright playing the social engineer game (thus bypassing audits and basic investor precautions). Quote: Here's the thing. Most startup bonds are plain vanilla trading bonds. You do not need to be an expert in RL trading of any ilk, let alone the esoteric crap. All startup bonds require you to act as a PI looking for signs of a scammer. The financial input required is minimal. Before you go any further and make more of an ass of yourself, read past audits, spend some time posting sensibly in MD - then propose yourself as an auditor. ...and this is why I am always surprised (not). New random investees come up with ridicolous proposals that show their utter lack of ANY care to just copy one of many readily available good examples. New random auditors come up with ridicolous proposals that show their utter lack of ANY care to just copy one of many readily available good examples. Both are instantly marked as "no go", because if they couldn't do due diligence at something so easy as copying an example, how can they deliver in an orderly and effective manner once they deal with the real business? - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Ramingo Caldari 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2010.09.09 07:47:00 - [27] Edited by: Ramingo on 09/09/2010 07:48:14 Glad I'm not the only new Auditor who got grilled by M&D Posse ^^ I don't have that much experience at Auditing in EvE but if there are any questions you have, stupid as they may seem, let me know and perhaps I can help you out.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 08:17:00 - [28] Originally by: Ramingo Edited by: Ramingo on 09/09/2010 07:48:14 Glad I'm not the only ~~new~~ Auditor who got grilled by M&D Posse ^^ Fixed for you. Don't believe your life will get any better later. Unless you are very good at PR (the reason along with greed why investors get catched by scammers). And imho an auditor must not entertrain in PR. An auditor imho should show him / herself for who he / she is, including defects so that people know he's at laast trying being true and as reliable as human condition allows us to be. In order to show transparency, I'd prefer to be the enemy you know more than the friend you don't know (and WILL stab you in face once - to paraphrase Bad Bobby - it's time to cash in). - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 08:37:00 - [29] Varo: Once again, you'll need to adhere to basic standards of civil behavior if you expect a dialogue with me. If you are unable to do so, we won't be talking. Ramingo: I did see their rude treatment of you as well. I'm very interested at the effort a few regulars here put into attempts to drive off auditors. I sit and ask myself why that is. How about you? The fact remains that the largest scam in 7 years just occurred in part due to a complete lack of auditing. What recommendations were made, were not followed. Thus, while facility security is important for obvious reasons, I find the emphasis to be putting the cart before the horse, to a degree that it begins to resemble a red herring. The main problem here is not POS security. The problem is borrowers running off with investor money. Except insofar as information security compartmentalization is required, any specific plant security measures should be inspected by POS warfare experts, not during financial and personal background audits. In an environment where there are very few auditors, where the largest scam in the game occurred due to a lack of competent auditing, where many of the current clique members ostensibly lost huge sums of money, one has to ask oneself why the clique attempts to deter auditors from outside of the clique.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.09.09 08:48:00 - [30] Edited by: Cyaxares II on 09/09/2010 08:54:22 Originally by: Jion Tichy one has to ask oneself why the clique attempts to deter auditors from outside of the clique. question already answered above. edit: maybe a good time to disclose your main? Quote: IÆm looking for a corp and you seem intelligent and congenial, if youÆre interested in doing some stealth bomber runs drop Jion Tichy (not my main) a mail with your in-game contact info. I think IÆd enjoy flying with you so let me know. My main will be 5 years old this year. Linkage
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 09:09:00 - [31] Cyaxares: I find the attacks against auditors to be very interesting indeed, for a number of reasons, reasons that are not nearly as simple or as obvious as you seem to think. What auditors do is that they conduct due diligence on the part of investors. As auditors gain more experience, they get better at doing this. Since they do it every day, they are not only better than the investors who hire them, they are better than shills who don't set up scams every day. Auditors simply see more offerings, legitimate and otherwise, than the shills do. In many situations, the due diligence performed by auditors is substituted for due diligence on the part of investors. This should not be the case but it often happens that way for a variety of reasons. To provide investor security, and to protect auditors, a list of procedures should be followed, containing current best practices. When these practices are followed, you have due diligence. In my case, I will be following best practices. I will be accepting recommendations and advice as to what these best practices are. These recommendations and advice represent industry knowledge and expertise. When dealing with me, as previously stated, recommendations and advice will have to be phrased in a polite manner. If they are not, they will not be acknowledged. Polite behavior represents a minimal baseline for communication. I suggest that others insist on the same. Best practices represent a codification of due diligence. For investors, due diligence involves employing the services of an auditor. For auditors, due diligence involves following best practices. When best practices are followed, the choice to invest falls back to the investor.
Cyaxares II	Posted - 2010.09.09 09:54:00 - [32] Originally by: Jion Tichy Cyaxares: I find the attacks against auditors to be very interesting indeed, for a number of reasons, reasons that are not nearly as simple or as obvious as you seem to think. Then a good start would be to explain these reasons to the rest of us? As far as I am concerned I cannot recognize any general attacks on auditors from the people you had to deal with in this thread so far - rather the other way round: you have received many serious replies with good advice from people who would be very interested in seeing more auditors in MD. Let me again repeat my comparison with acquiring a security clearance - it doesn't matter if you don't like having to answer questions about your sexual preferences, it doesn't matter if you don't like your neighbors being interviewed on you and it doesn't matter if you happen to think polygraph tests are bull**. That's just the stuff you have to go through in order to get the job and in most cases there will be good reasons for seemingly stupid requirements even if you don't recognize this yet. If you really have been playing this game for five years and have browsed MD time and again during that time you should know that part of the due diligence you like so much to talk about is getting an idea of how much gameplay knowledge a business manager has, to what degree he is willing to take advice, how much he really wants to run the proposed offering and how he reacts under pressure. And the same is true for auditors (only more important in their case). My advice for you would be to get off your high horse, disclose your main and alts (because nobody will trust you without knowing them) and then start doing audits. You could have collected a few bonus points in this thread (by answering VV's questions) but you didn't and here's nothing left to win as long as you keep dodging questions and repeating fancy phrases. Originally by:** Jion Tichy When dealing with me, as previously stated, recommendations and advice will have to be phrased in a polite manner. If they are not, they will not be acknowledged. You would discard sensible advice solely on grounds of it being voiced in a manner you don't like? That's not exactly a point in your favor.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 10:08:00 - [33] Quote: As far as I am concerned I cannot recognize any general attacks on auditors from the people you had to deal with in this thread so far - rather the other way round: you have received many serious replies with good advice from people who would be very interested in seeing more auditors in MD. Yes, and serious advice is taken under advisement when it's phrased in ways that fulfill basic criteria of civility. Where I'm from, this is just the very baseline of professional behavior. Perhaps your definition varies. I simply don't deal with people who are uncivil. On that note, do you have any recommendations for auditing best practices? I am in the process of compiling a policies and procedures document for auditors.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.09 10:31:00 - [34] Originally by: Jion Tichy I am in the process of compiling a policies and procedures document for auditors. First off, you have never done an audit for MD and are in no position to compile a policies and procedures document. If anything Hexxx, Kazzac, Kazuo, Shar, and VV would be. Even the other current or past auditors such as Brock, Ji, LA, Vero, or myself probably don't know enough to do something like this. You should start out by reading this thread by Kazuo http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=916580 and perhaps follow up with this one http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1213656 That should give you a little bit more information. That being said, even investors won't take your audit seriously unless you are deemed acceptable. Cosmo gave a good list for acceptable qualifications auditors found here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1213656&page=2#56 Doing audits means nothing if no one will trust you.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 10:43:00 - [35] Good advice, Breaker. I've read those threads and they're packed with good information. When I say I'm compiling a document, I don't mean a document that I intend for you to follow. I don't expect anyone to follow it but myself. I will publicize this document in order to make it available for suggested revisions.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 10:52:00 - [36] Quote: The main problem here is not POS security. The problem is borrowers running off with investor money. Except insofar as information security compartmentalization is required, any specific plant security measures should be inspected by POS warfare experts, not during financial and personal background audits. The main problem here is that you are not asking me: "why do you ask me about POS security? I am the accountant dude!" Well, EvE: - is a game. This is important. Players, despite the roleplaying and the businessman faces are players, with just an icing of knowledge. We (EVE auditors) have to do things that cater and interest to gamers while still not performing a farce. - has its limitations. There are no GOOG or INTL tickers here. It's 90% single man corps who need so little amounts that slamming down a plethora of specialized consultants is unpractical, untimely and financially unbearable for them. This means the auditor has to play: accountant, consultant, game mechanics expert, security advisor... This means the investors expect YOU know about POS security, YOU are their interface to the investee, YOU are the POS warfare expert for what they care, in case you miss some bits of knowledge YOU are meant to go the extra mile and find one and reply them. You are not meant to know everything, but to manage how to get knowledge about everything. Quote: I simply don't deal with people who are uncivil. Did you know that river gold is found in lurid mud? And that sometimes you just won't find it in an aseptic laboratory? Quote: I am in the process of compiling a policies and procedures document for auditors A good start would be for you to post with your main. No auditor worth his name uses alts. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 10:59:00 - [37] Quote: The main problem here is that you are not asking me: "why do you ask me about POS security? I am the accountant dude!" I did say that, or cognates thereof, repeatedly. Other than that, good advice. Any other specific recommendations?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.09 11:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: The main problem here is that you are not asking me: "why do you ask me about POS security? I am the accountant dude!" I did say that, or cognates thereof, repeatedly. Other than that, good advice. Any other specific recommendations? In addition to the above: - Before writing documents and best practices, find out what the players expect your documents cover. The "what" to cover is explained in my previous post. - Try and find out Kazzac and Kazuo audits. I have another style that I don't mean to impose, maybe give a quick glance to one of my last ones. If / when you'll have some audit on some large (50B+) operation, give a look to Varo Jan's balance sheets. - Expect to be trialled, scrutinized, flamed, tortured, gnawed, spat in face and more. This thread could be just a tiny taste, there'll be way much more to come. - Don't accept to audit character traders. - Be generous with the disclaimers, they WILL hold you accountable. - Be precise when you state what tasks you are assigned to. Once I have been tasked at holding an intellectual asset as third party service yet people understood I was auditing the operation. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.09 12:13:00 - [39] More good advice. What I will do will be very cut and dried, with a clear and open procedure and criteria. Ultimately it will be the option of the investors whether to accept the investment or not. By the same token, it will be their option whether to accept my auditing services or not. I will inform them of my procedure. They will be free to suggest modifications to my procedure. I will follow my procedure and deliver a summary of findings. If, post-facto, someone has a problem with the procedure that I followed, then the time to have voiced it would have been during the modification phase.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2010.09.10 03:06:00 - [40] I have followed the development of auditing in the context of the Market Discussion forums for some time, so I might have more thoughts later, but for now I'll start at the beginning: Originally by: Jion Tichy I am offering my services as an auditor. When you write that you are offering your services as an auditor, that raises in my mind the simple question: Who are you? I do not mean that in dismissive or judgmental way, but simply as an inquiry into the identity, past behaviour, and characteristics of someone I might want to trust for the provision of some services. Which pilots are your "alts" or "mains"? Independence is one thing, amongst others, that I believe people expect auditors in this forum. Consider, for example, an auditor whose "main" pilot is a minion in a dictatorial corporation that is adverse in interest to the offeror of a new IPO. Some people might have concerns about the independence of the auditor: might he or she be ordered to stymie the offering? Others might not have the same concern. Everyone, though, is in a better position to assess the auditor's claim of independence (implicit or otherwise) if the auditor's identify is known. As a further reason to disclose all "alts" and "mains", some players might think that it is only polite to "post with your main" when offering a service of this type. á á
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.10 08:44:00 - [41] Originally by: Estel Arador It's nice that you (claim to) have real life experience, but what's your experience in EVE? Originally by: Jion Tichy At this point I will be issuing a numerical risk management score in the form of a percentage, in addition to a detailed summary of my findings. What does the percentage add to the detailed summary? Originally by: Jion Tichy My fee will be 1% of the loan amount for a basic investment or loan. Seems like a low amount for a lot of work. For your own sake and for that of the auditing profession in general, I would suggest that you charge more. On a 1bil offering you could be taking as little as 1mil/hour. And if this is a good amount of isk for you then you are probably not currently ready to be trusted with multi-billion isk information
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 09:09:00 - [42] RAW23: As someone stated, it may be possible to make more of a decent profit over time with second and later rounds of investment, and that was my original thought. And I had also thought that it might be a good idea to charge less at first until people get an idea of what I am offering. But you're right that more would be better. Do you think 2% per offering?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.10 09:28:00 - [43] Originally by: Jion Tichy RAW23: As someone stated, it may be possible to make more of a decent profit over time with second and later rounds of investment, and that was my original thought. And I had also thought that it might be a good idea to charge less at first until people get an idea of what I am offering. But you're right that more would be better. Do you think 2% per offering? A basic rate for small offers of something in the 100-250mil region is appropriate. The size of the offering doesn't really matter as the MD audit fund will cover the costs in order to support the auditing profession and attract and retain decent people into doing this work. Bigger offers can be assessed on a % basis. Also: see my edit above re: standards of politeness. This is more important than price as your audits will simply be incomplete if they don't go through the scrutiny process.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.10 10:22:00 - [44] Edited by: Breaker77 on 10/09/2010 10:23:08 Originally by: RAW23 The size of the offering doesn't really matter as the MD audit fund may cover the costs AHEM. Fixed that. It's still up to a vote from the BoD if we cover the cost of an audit. edit: fail quote
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.10 10:30:00 - [45] Originally by: Breaker77 Edited by: Breaker77 on 10/09/2010 10:23:08 Originally by: RAW23 The size of the offering doesn't really matter as the MD audit fund may cover the costs AHEM. Fixed that. It's still up to a vote from the BoD if we cover the cost of an audit. edit: fail quote As Breaker rightly points out, coverage is not automatic but so far only very dodgy looking offers have been turned down. Any offer that meets basic MD standards should have no problem.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 10:47:00 - [46] I find it interesting that community disbursement for auditing fees is controlled by a single, central organization with a small number of members. I guess I'd feel better if my fee were either covered entirely by the borrower (onus of proof being on the claimant, to discourage jokers) or were split evenly by the borrower and lender.
Epikurus	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:21:00 - [47] Edited by: Epikurus on 10/09/2010 11:21:59 Originally by: Jion Tichy I find it interesting that community disbursement for auditing fees is controlled by a single, central organization with a small number of members. I guess I'd feel better if my fee were either covered entirely by the borrower (onus of proof being on the claimant, to discourage jokers) or were split evenly by the borrower and lender. RAW23's alt posting. Damn these forums! There are a number of reasons this happened. Firstly, because otherwise small offerings will simply not be able to make the economic case for having an audit unless audits are done so cheaply as to detract from the value of the profession. In short, the big problem is that auditing is a very highly skilled and labor intensive job. Competent auditors are also, typically, competent at making money from other sources at a rate of at least 50mil an hour. Given the huge additional stresses that come with auditing, expecting these people to make themselves available regularly for the sum of 1-2mil an hour seems unrealistic. The idea of getting the lenders to pay has been discussed before but the main problem there is that potential lenders want to see an audit before they decide to invest. There are also a sufficiently large number of them to cause free-loading on a significant scale. Finally, for the small offers, paying an auditor a decent rate will, again, not be economical and underpaying them serves the community badly. So soliciting donations from the investor base to act in their own interests by helping to maintain the audit system was deemed to be a good idea (by some). On another note, could you please respond to my earlier concerns about your declared approach of only accepting scrutiny from those who conform to your personal standards. I've suggested why I don't think that can possible work (you can't pick your own oversight) but you haven't yet responded to these comments. I don't want to call you evasive but ...
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:26:00 - [48] Quote: could you please respond to my earlier concerns about your declared approach of only accepting scrutiny from those who conform to your personal standards. Specifically where did you mention this earlier? I do require that those who I will deal with behave in a professional manner if they expect responses from me. This is simply not up for negotiation. I recommend the policy highly.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:32:00 - [49] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 11:27:19 Quote: could you please respond to my earlier concerns about your declared approach of only accepting scrutiny from those who conform to your personal standards. Specifically where did you mention this earlier? [oh, I see, you're raw23...] I do require that those who I will deal with behave in a professional manner if they expect responses from me. This is simply not up for negotiation. I recommend the policy highly. Edit to post 41 above and note indicating that edit in post 43. As I say there, this policy is simply not viable. As an auditor you will be constantly scrutinised. You cannot pick and choose which people you will accept scrutiny from, regardless of your motives for these choices, without your audit being incomplete. If you do not respond to legitimate concerns, regardless of how they are phrased, your audits will have very limited value. I'm not claiming this is a good thing but the preofession you have chosen involves taking on a defined role. You cannot perform this role in the way that you indicate that you would prefer to as your own standards are at odds with the standards that define the auditing profession.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:36:00 - [50] Quote: As I say there, this policy is simply not viable. As an auditor you will be constantly scrutinised. You cannot pick and choose which people you will accept scrutiny from Actually I can. People who are impolite are showing themselves as immature jokers. They have the option of either phrasing their scrutiny in a polite manner, or, in lieu of that, holding their peace. I will simply not respond to the long-standing pattern of rude behavior consistently exhibited by some people here, some of them among the most respected. In my opinion, they are showing themselves for what they really are. This is how I conduct business in the Real World, and it is how I will be conducting business here. This is my final word on this subject.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:42:00 - [51] Edited by: RAW23 on 10/09/2010 11:44:02 Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: As I say there, this policy is simply not viable. As an auditor you will be constantly scrutinised. You cannot pick and choose which people you will accept scrutiny from Actually I can. People who are impolite are showing themselves as immature jokers. They have the option of either phrasing their scrutiny in a polite manner, or, in lieu of that, holding their peace. I will simply not respond to the long-standing pattern of rude behavior consistently exhibited by some people here, some of them among the most respected. In my opinion, they are showing themselves for what they really are. This is how I conduct business in the Real World, and it is how I will be conducting business here. This is my final word on this subject. I do appreciate your stance but it means you cannot be an auditor in EVE. Example: You carry out an audit for a client and present it in his investment thread. $ people ask legitimate questions about the validity of the audit (facts, methodologies, or whatever). Two of these are phrased rudely but are not repeated anywhere else in the thread. If you refuse to reply to them on principle then no one can possibly take an audit seriously that has legitimate, albeit rude, questions hanging over it. The audit will be unacceptable to investors and you will leave your client hanging in the wind. If you take this principled stand I can more or less guarantee that some people will take great delight in asking important and perceptive legitimate questions rudely, just for the pleasure of seeing your audits go up in smoke. If you want to be an auditor in the current social stew that is MD then you have to take it as it is. If you're not willing to work in that environment then you can't work effectively as an auditor on MD.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:51:00 - [52] Quote: Two of these are phrased rudely but are not repeated anywhere else in the thread. The people who behave this way are showing themselves as rude children and their views will be immediately thrown out, the way someone who showed up drunk and screaming at a business meeting will be shown the door. I am polite myself and I insist on politeness from others. And I think you're misunderstanding something. If the rude, uncivil children don't wish to deal with me because of this policy, I support their desire to deal with someone who will accept rude, childish behavior. In fact, I insist on it. I've stated my policy on this subject repeatedly. If you are looking for a kick-around toy, I suggest you talk to one of the other auditors, who seem to enjoy abusive behavior. I suggest to other auditors, and in fact everyone who does business here or in the real world, that they adhere strictly to the same policy. Like so many other similar things, those who argue against it expose their agendas.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.10 11:59:00 - [53] Edited by: RAW23 on 10/09/2010 11:59:56 Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: Two of these are phrased rudely but are not repeated anywhere else in the thread. The people who behave this way are showing themselves as rude children and their views will be immediately thrown out, the way someone who showed up drunk and screaming at a business meeting will be shown the door. I am polite myself and I insist on politeness from others. And I think you're misunderstanding something. If the rude, uncivil children don't wish to deal with me because of this policy, I support their desire to deal with someone who will accept rude, childish behavior. In fact, I insist on it. I've stated my policy on this subject repeatedly. If you are looking for a kick-around toy, I suggest you talk to one of the other auditors, who seem to enjoy abusive behavior. I suggest to other auditors, and in fact everyone who does business here or in the real world, that they adhere strictly to the same policy. Like so many other similar things, those who argue against it expose their agendas. I'm afraid you are missing the point here. What you say would be fine if all your clients' potential investors had the same principles as you. However, they won't. They will not, on the whole, care about your principles. They will, as investors, only care about unanswered substantive questions. If you leave those questions unanswered you will not have completed a valid audit. Remember, you are providing a service to both the auditee and the potential investors. If you do not give them the basic things they need, then you will have failed to provide that service. You can't dictate terms in the way you want to without accepting that you will be selling a service that does not correspond to the one the market wants. Investors will want those questions answered as a basic feature of your service, regardless of your principlles. If you insist on sticking to those principles, and I can fully understand why you might, you will need to find a different group of investors to sell your services to. Edit - Btw, what do you think my agenda is, now that you are throwing accusations out at people you disagree with but who are perfectly polite?
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 12:03:00 - [54] No.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.10 12:13:00 - [55] /auditing career. I salute your principled stand but you have sacrificed your auditing career on its alter. You cannot supply the practical service you are offering adequately if you take that approach. As to your suggestion that I have some agenda to protect the frequently dubious tone, you might want to have a look on eve search. You will find that I have been more vocal than most in condemning it. But that doesn't change the fact that you cannot actually do your job in this way, anymore than a character witness in court could provide a character reference if he refused to engage with agressive but legitimate questions under cross examination.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 13:51:00 - [56] Quote: As to your suggestion that I have some agenda to protect the frequently dubious tone, you might want to have a look on eve search. You will find that I have been more vocal than most in condemning it. I appreciate your concerns. My policy in this regard is very simple and is referred to as the "no a$$hole rule." I encourage you to join me. Now, anything substantial to offer regarding audits themselves?
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 13:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Jion Tichy I find it interesting that community disbursement for auditing fees is controlled by a single, central organization with a small number of members. You're welcome to set up a competing fund. The members are all respected members of the community, and the fact that there's five of 'm making decisions by majority vote means that no one member's personal feelings affect the actions of the fund. Originally by: RAW23 /auditing career. It was over when he give nonsense answers to VV's questions. It was also over when he refused to disclose his main. This pet peeve about not responding to rude posts is the least of his problems. Free jumpclone service\|1092 stations!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 14:00:00 - [58] Quote: It was over when he give nonsense answers to VV's questions. It was also over when he refused to disclose his main. This pet peeve about not responding to rude posts is the least of his problems. Estel, as I said earlier, your comments have been taken under advisement. I encourage you to join me in insisting on professional manner and behavior, from others as well as yourself, as difficult of a change for you as it might be. I think you will notice a great difference in the way others treat you. You're in a position of being able to improve the quality of discourse here. Be the change you want to see in the world.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 14:40:00 - [59] Edited by: Estel Arador on 10/09/2010 14:42:01 Originally by: Jion Tichy I encourage you to join me in insisting on professional manner and behavior, Unfortunately you're not taking your own advice. Ignoring people based on perceived rudeness is not professional behaviour, and it is counter-productive from a communication perspective (there might be some instances where ignoring is best, but as a general rule it's not). Originally by: Jion Tichy I think you will notice a great difference in the way others treat you. I'm treated very well, thank you. Originally by: Jion Tichy Be the change you want to see in the world. Actions, not words, change the world, and I am changing the world, one jumpclone at the time. (Incidentally I just accepted the 10.000th user to my free jumpclone service, a service which is generally valued at 5M isk per character - that's a 50 billion isk contribution to the community.) Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 14:47:00 - [60] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 14:48:22 Quote: Actions, not words, change the world, and I am changing the world, one jumpclone at the time. (Incidentally I just accepted the 10.000th user to my free jumpclone service, a service which is generally valued at 5M isk - that's a 50 billion isk contribution to the community.) That's certainly nice of you, but is a completely separate issue from abrasive and immature behavior. Many people play MMOs so that they can be a bigshot in the MMO, in order to mistreat others. This is common enough that there's a term for it: "The Personality." Civil communication must be the baseline for all productive interaction. As I said, however, your comments are taken under advisement.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 14:55:00 - [61] I'll put this in words you can understand. Earlier, you said this: Quote: One way that I judge character is by observing how people treat individuals who can do nothing for them, such as waiters. This is a very powerful measuring device and never seems to lie. I'm nice to people who can do nothing for me (the waiters), I give them jumpclones, offer advice and help, answer questions, etc, etc. (Most of my posts are related to this.) Then there's people like you. You're not a waiter. You're some kind of health inspector who, without any credentials or experience, barges into a restaurant claiming to know how things should be done. That health inspector gets ** from me - perhaps even literally. Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!**
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:04:00 - [62] Quote: Then there's people like you. You're not a waiter. You're some kind of health inspector who, without any credentials or experience, barges into a restaurant claiming to know how things should be done. That health inspector gets **** from me - perhaps even literally. Interesting that you'd use that analogy. Also interesting that someone who invested money in Bad Bobby's transparent scam would accuse someone else of inexperience. You are affiliated with MD. If MD was a restaurant, it would have been closed down long ago for numerous flagrant code violations.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:14:00 - [63] Originally by: Jion Tichy Interesting that you'd use that analogy. Also interesting that someone who invested money in Bad Bobby's transparent scam would accuse someone else of inexperience. That would be a non-sequitur if I had invested, but I don't think there's anyone who would consider my 3 (three) T4U shares of 1 million isk each to be an 'investment', just like my 10 (ten) Otherworld Enterprises shares are not an investment. Originally by: Jion Tichy You are affiliated with MD. If MD was a restaurant, it would have been closed down long ago for numerous flagrant code violations. And I would welcome anyone with sufficient experience and proper respect for MD's history to do something about it. Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:24:00 - [64] Quote: That would be a non-sequitur if I had invested, but I don't think there's anyone who would consider my 3 (three) T4U shares of 1 million isk each to be an 'investment' It would be a nonsequitur if you had not, in fact, invested. You also referred to it as an "Historical Opportunity." Quote: And I would welcome anyone with sufficient experience and proper respect for MD's history to do something about it. Proper respect for its history of scams, ponzi schemes and other fraudulent instruments, much of which has taken place under your watch.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:29:00 - [65] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 08/09/2010 20:45:22 I am offering my services as an auditor. Any audits I perform will consist of several steps: * Disqualification Pass. Has the person requesting the loan, or the bond manager, been involved in any shady dealings in the past? Is the toon a recent purchase? Has the toon bought or sold characters? If so, are any of these characters or "previous owners" affiliated in any way with scammers or cheats? * Business plan pass. I will expect a detailed written business plan (500 words or so) from the prospective borrower. This plan may be displayed publicly or I can keep it private. I will be analyzing the profitability of the fund or business. * API pass. I will be provided with the borrower's full API. I will be scrutinizing the security status and associations (alliance, corporate, killboard, etc) of the borrower's toon and all alts on the account and every account associated with the fund or instrument. Piracy will not be considered an automatic disqualifier but will inform my final risk judgement in the same way that a criminal record would apply to a prospective corporate financial officer. * Business network pass. Does the borrower have business references? Who works with the borrower? What firms does the borrower do business with and under what conditions? This will include a full employment background check. It will also include research into forum posts made by and concerning the borrower. * Disqualification Pass. You reside in an alt corp founded by a self confessed scammer * Business plan pass. Your business plan and apparent understanding of MD appears poor. 1% fee for an audit shows no understanding of the audit profession, you were apparently unaware of the audit fund, and your answers to VV's questions imply ignorance of ingame mechanics and businesses. * API pass. Confirm your main. If you expect to be given API keys and valuable trading/corporate information... don't ask for it from an alt. That should be fairly obvious. * Business network pass. Does the borrower have business references? <---- Do you? Based upon your own standards you appear to have failed to even be eligible for a basic audit. Not only would handing full API keys to you to perform an audit be unwise, your audit would have no credability and potentially damage the offering. Why are you arguing at such length over "civility" but ignoring Thoraemond, Cyaxares II and VV's questions/comments about your identity? Not sure if I achieved the "civility" standard or not, but if you ignore this query again that will be 4 times on this page, which is a fairly obvious "red flag". More obviously (from an investor persepctive), you've made a classic mistake that many people who come to MD asking for ISK do; launching your offering having contributed only minimally to MD discussions. Common sense would say, before launching any type of offering, introduce yourself and allow people to get to know your tone/attitude. When asking for "trust" which is both far more valuable, and much harder to earn than spacebux, why skip over all of that and go straight for an offering? Investors are equally concerned that auditors have the practical knowledge to assess offerings fairly, but you haven't contributed to any discussions recently to demonstrate that. Launching a service in this fashion suggests ignorance, lack of proper research, and possibly arrogance (those aren't insults, just suggestions as to how this approach may be interpreted). If you're running into problems at this stage over perceived insult/hostility in the tone of the posters, how will you even be capable of addressing the concerns of investors, who may not care to make queries with a "please and thank you" attached?
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:32:00 - [66] Phoebe: Your concerns are appreciated and will be taken under advisement. I will soon be forming a corporation dedicated to auditing and due diligence.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:33:00 - [67] Originally by: Jion Tichy It would be a nonsequitur if you had not, in fact, invested. You also referred to it as an "Historical Opportunity." 'Historic', not 'historical'. This was the largest IPO in recent history and I wanted a piece (or three pieces) of it for that sake alone. If I had considered it a sound investment, I would've spent a bit more than 3 million on it. Two posts above mine in that thread is Gabriel Virtus explaining what a bad investment it is, and in the same post buying 10 shares, probably for the same reason as I. If you want to call my judgement in question, you will want to find a better example than T4U. Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:33:00 - [68] Jion: You haven't addressed any of my points.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:40:00 - [69] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 15:43:07 Quote: If you want to call my judgement in question, you will want to find a better example than T4U. A better example than an obviously fraudulent investment which you not only invested in, but made an apparently positive comment about, and apparently said very little as others invested huge amounts? I think I'd have to look pretty hard to find a better example than that. At this point you're also defending an investment being offered by someone named Stealing Honest, and you're asking for examples of bad judgement on your part? You aren't an investor in Real Life, are you? Phoebe: As I've stated, your concerns (and those of all others who have posted here) will be taken under advisement. Many of them seem highly invested in an attempt to dissuade and deter outside auditors. As I've stated here, these attempts are only part of a long-standing pattern of attacks on auditors who are not part of a small and closely-knit group. Don't you agree that an outside observer might find that interesting?
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 15:59:00 - [70] Edited by: Estel Arador on 10/09/2010 16:00:01 Originally by: Jion Tichy A better example than an obviously fraudulent investment which you not only invested in, but made an apparently positive comment about, An "apparently positive comment" followed by a mega-investment of 3 million isk. Read between the lines... And a lot can be said about T4U, but not that it was not historic. Originally by: Jion Tichy and apparently said very little as others invested huge amounts? People invest all the time in things I don't or wouldn't invest in. This is a free world. Originally by: Jion Tichy At this point you're also defending an investment being offered by someone named Stealing Honest, and you're asking for examples of bad judgement on your part? I've answered that one here. As I said, I'm not willing to hijack that thread. If you wish, I'll be happy to continue that discussion here. I'll start by noting that you've again not responded to the argument I've made. Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:04:00 - [71] Quote: An "apparently positive comment" followed by a mega-investment of 3 million isk. Read between the lines... And a lot can be said about T4U, but not that it was not historic. But you did invest. Earlier you tried to say that you didn't invest. Which is it? Quote: People invest all the time in things I don't or wouldn't invest in. This is a free world. But you said nothing. I find that very interesting. Quote: I've answered that one here. As I said, I'm not willing to hijack that thread. If you wish, I'll be happy to continue that discussion here. I'll start by noting that you've again not responded to the argument I've made. You're not willing to say anything about an obviously fraudulent investment and you're apparently willing to invest time to defend it. Other than making a note of that here, any further discussion of Stealing Honest will take place in that thread. I will go on record again here as saying that I believe the Stealing Honest investment is fraudulent, prima facie.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:08:00 - [72] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 15:43:07Phoebe: As I've stated, your concerns (and those of all others who have posted here) will be taken under advisement. Many of them seem highly invested in an attempt to dissuade and deter outside auditors. As I've stated here, these attempts are only part of a long-standing pattern of attacks on auditors who are not part of a small and closely-knit group. Don't you agree that an outside observer might find that interesting? If that perception is stopping you from taking on board valid criticisms and concerns: you are not capable of being an auditor in MD. Poor audits, bad offerings, questionable auditors cast bad light on the profession overall so damn right people will scrutinise you. If you'd done a little reading you'd notice that most of the posters have contributed in discussions about auditing. Existing auditors may also be questioned and called to account by anyone on the boards. Just as you've posted your half arsed observation in another thread, I or anyone else can do the same here: People who are considering launching an offering should not approach this auditor. He has undisclosed alts, and is associated with an known scammer (may in fact be an alt of Janya Rykayn). He lacks knowledge of both MD and auditing. Offerings which he audits may be damaged by association. Now, my standing on MD is probably similar to yours, but that comment will appear in any search a potential client makes on you. Are you starting to see why credability and endorsement are relevant yet? Without some support from the community, your career as an auditor will never happen. There are bigger names that can curtail your career, but chances are you'll continue digging yourself into the hole, and nuke it yourself. Look forward to reading your first audit
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:12:00 - [73] Quote: but that comment will appear in any search a potential client makes on you. Phoebe, I appreciate your comments. It's admirable that you are so concerned for the wellbeing of MD investors. I will be directing people to this thread myself. Anything else you have to say, please feel free to put it here.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:23:00 - [74] Originally by: Jion Tichy But you did invest. Earlier you tried to say that you didn't invest. Which is it? As I said before, buying a few shares as memorabilia (as I did with Otherworld Enterprises) is not an investment. Originally by: Jion Tichy But you said nothing. I find that very interesting. Good for you. Originally by: Jion Tichy You're not willing to say anything about an obviously fraudulent investment and you're apparently willing to invest time to defend it. I questioned your reasoning without saying anything (positive or negative) about the offering. Originally by: Jion Tichy I will go on record again here as saying that I believe the Stealing Honest investment is fraudulent, prima facie. Again, are there any conditions would you accept that it is not fraudulent, or will this statement hold true forever (either because it's proven correct or remains unproven one way or another)? Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:24:00 - [75] Quote: As I said before, buying a few shares as memorabilia (as I did with Otherworld Enterprises) is not an investment. Investment is not investment? As for your defense of the Stealing Honest investment, you may continue that in the thread where discussion of that investment belongs.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:34:00 - [76] Originally by: Jion Tichy Investment is not investment? I've explained it here, here, here, and here. You seem to be stuck on repeating the same old thing, while not actually responding to what I say. Is there any specific part of my argument you're disagreeing with? Originally by: Jion Tichy As for your defense of the Stealing Honest investment, you may continue that in the thread where discussion of that investment belongs. Again, repeating the same old drivel while not responding to what's been said. If this is what people can expect when you do an audit, I'm sure we'll be up for some fireworks Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:41:00 - [77] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Third reply: that's a decent reply, but the most obvious alarm bell would be the livestock price is topping something akin to an head and shoulders pattern, that is something that soon will see the item price drop like a rock. Now people need to believe in voodoo in order to become auditors? MD is doomed.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 16:59:00 - [78] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 17:03:15 Quote: If this is what people can expect when you do an audit This is exactly what people can expect. I will very likely cast an extremely jaundiced eye on any offering. I will not be likely to offer recommendations or even "Looks fine to me," but will explain my findings within extremely clearcut bounds and according to strict and inflexible terms. I am ordinarily a very flexible person but in situations like audits, deviation is a problem-- there is a reason why most accountants and reputable financial types are very rigid people. This rigidity protects them post-facto as well as protecting the investors who can be sure they are getting what they ask for. My tendencies toward negativity and cynicism could conceivably cause me to recommend against offerings that might conceivably be legitimate; therefore I will be offering evaluations according to a list of criteria. Upon issuance of my (most likely negative) evaluation, investors will not listen to me and will invest anyway, preferring the siren call of isk to caution. Perhaps some happy medium will be reached between cynicism and the desire to fling money away on fly-by-night blueprint scams. None of my comments should be taken as criticisms of you personally, nor of anyone else-- this is simply the way I am after 20 years in a variety of businesses. My experiences and observations have taught me cynicism. I've seen people robbed of literally millions of dollars by people who were such obvious liars that it's astonishing that others would ever believe them. I've watched sharp businessmen ripping each other off, then having each others adult KIDS arrested, having off-duty cops roll in and confiscate everything. I've watched misdirection of funds. I've brought a best friend into a business and then watched him become like a rabid dog as soon as he thought he could torpedo me and get at the funds himself! (He was unsuccessful and should have known better...) I'm blathering on now but this is where I'm coming from. Eve is just more of the same, and my real-world experience is that people are often more concerned about holding onto isk than they are about dollars. I've also told a really-and-truly millionaire employer to go fck himself because he thought it would be a good idea to scream at me over the phone. I guess I'm just not much of a licker.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:02:00 - [79] Quote: Now people need to believe in voodoo in order to become auditors? MD is doomed. Part of the reason that technical patterns work is that there are a number of dynamics that arise when people get concerned about behavior of a commodity. Head and Shoulders is the picture of a self-fulfilling prophesy. In the real world, where people know about technical analysis, the pattern is even more pronounced. In Haiti, people die from voodoo curses. Belief is a powerful thing.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:13:00 - [80] Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: If this is what people can expect when you do an audit yadayadayada Nice story bro. Of course I was referring to the fact that your only reply to counterarguments seems to be to repeat what you said before. If you've got another story which actually addresses that, I'll be happy to hear it. Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 17:19:00 - [81] Quote: Nice story bro. Your true persona shows itself again. Try to hold on to the thin veneer of maturity, or you can go back to the children's table. Let's start again from the part where you were defending a prima-facie fraudulent investment. Try to be polite this time.
Sosumi U'hoar	Posted - 2010.09.10 18:58:00 - [82] Since you believe that the current bond issued by Stealing Honest is fraudulant (scam) on prima facie evidence I assume that you would also deem this, this, this, this and this are similarly fraudulant (scams). Please explain your position of non-investment in any of those and particularly the first four links would have been beneficial to those that did, in fact, choose to invest. Whilst I believe that you will dismiss the below quote because of the name of the poster, in the same way that I expect you to dismiss this post, it amply demonstrates the point that Estel is trying to make to you with respect to your statement in Stealing Honests 5th Bond thread. Originally by: Cheque Please Edited by: Cheque Please on 13/06/2010 20:14:34 Originally by: Roguehalo Originally by: Roguehalo Scam is obvious. qft If I go into a casino like Rainman and call out "ACE OF SPADES" at every opportunity, eventually the card is going to land. Does that make me an idiot savant, or just an idiot? Regards, <--
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:06:00 - [83] Quote: Whilst I believe that you will dismiss the below quote because of the name of the poster, in the same way that I expect you to dismiss this post, Oh, I don't dismiss it solely on that basis. Personally, for me, it would be below my risk threshold for obvious reasons. Do you feel that a name like like "Bad Bobby" and "Sosumi Uhoar" or "Stealing Honest" is a positive or negative indicator? FWIW, I would also be biased against someone named "Honest Jim," again for obvious reasons.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:26:00 - [84] Originally by: Jion Tichy Phoebe: As I've stated, your concerns (and those of all others who have posted here) will be taken under advisement. Many of them seem highly invested in an attempt to dissuade and deter outside auditors. As I've stated here, these attempts are only part of a long-standing pattern of attacks on auditors who are not part of a small and closely-knit group. The one thing you have consistently demonstrated throughout this thread is a good command of corporate-speak. "Taken under advisement" is code for "I'm not going to answer you because I have something to hide." Oh, and nice try at laying down smokescreens. Your modus operandi reminds me of a couple of MD scammers with the gift of the gab. Originally by: Jion Tichy Originally by: Estel Arador Nice story bro. Your true persona shows itself again. Try to hold on to the thin veneer of maturity, or you can go back to the children's table. Let's start again from the part where you were defending a prima-facie fraudulent investment. Try to be polite this time. More corporate-speak. Your purported RL activities cannot be verified. That's the point Estel and others made. Your response to a highly respected member of MD and the EVE community as a whole, while couched in corporate speak, was evasive and extremely rude to those who can read between the lines. And you have the temerity to call others impolite? Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel People who are considering launching an offering should not approach this auditor. He has undisclosed alts, and is associated with a known scammer (may in fact be an alt of Janya Rykayn). He lacks knowledge of both MD and auditing. I agree with everything Phoebe said here. You have not earned your spurs in MD. You have not run a successful bond or IPO. Your lack of knowledge of the requirements for auditing in this environment is crystal clear. Your refusal to disclose all your characters, and your association with a scammer are the icing on the cake. And your disdainful attitude clinches the deal. Please go away. We've seen enough smug scammers in MD of late, and don't need to entertain a scammer auditor.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:36:00 - [85] Your opinion is valuable, Varo, and contrary to what you may think, I'm listening to everything that people say here. When I say "taken under advisement," it's the short version of "I'm listening to what you have to say, and I may or may not act on every piece of advice that I receive, but your opinion is appreciated and will be taken into account." Were you burned by this latest scam, if you don't mind my asking?
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:39:00 - [86] Originally by: Jion Tichy Were you burned by this latest scam, if you don't mind my asking? He's too busy running a rather a large IPO to invest
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:49:00 - [87] Quote: He's too busy running a rather a large IPO to invest What about the Fraction Loot IPO? I was thinking about investing... look legit to you?
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:53:00 - [88] Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: He's too busy running a rather a large IPO to invest What about the Fraction Loot IPO? I was thinking about investing... look legit to you? No... Just from the looks of it, unknown alt, no posting history, why need the ISK if you are getting 50 billion?
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 19:58:00 - [89] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 19:58:41 Kiddin. Long time back there were guys hawking "Dread Guristers" faction loot and having success with it. Just for future reference, if you ever see me say "I'm thinking of investing," you know it's a joke.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:30:00 - [90] Originally by: Jion Tichy Your opinion is valuable, Varo, and contrary to what you may think, I'm listening to everything that people say here. When I say "taken under advisement," it's the short version of "I'm listening to what you have to say, and I may or may not act on every piece of advice that I receive, but your opinion is appreciated and will be taken into account." You may be listening, and you may not. It pays to take an extremely cynical view of people in MD, so I'm still inclined to take the latter view. Actions speak louder than words. Your lack of action by failing to provide clear, unambiguous responses to the many valid questions raised will prevent you from realising your ambition to become an auditor. Quote: Were you burned by this latest scam, if you don't mind my asking? I don't mind you asking, and I do. I mind because your intention could well be to lay down another smokescreen and take up more space in this thread on matters that have nothing to do with you demonstrating your in-game credentials. And the answer to your question is no. I never trusted him, the return was pathetic, and demonstrated his incompetence as a business manager. But enough with the smokescreens. You simply do not satisfy any of the criteria for becoming an MD auditor at this point in time. MD needs more auditors. However, MD cannot afford to take a chance with you - too many alarm bells are ringing.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 20:40:00 - [91] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 20:41:53 Quote: You may be listening, and you may not. It pays to take an extremely cynical view of people in MD, so I'm still inclined to take the latter view. Well, yes! I'm exactly the same way, and I'm continually nonplussed when people place large amounts of trust in people who it's immediately obvious are non-trustworthy, or even when they don't have copious evidence to the contrary. [Or even when they DO have copious evidence to the contrary!] I do understand your position. Whether or not I will say "OK, here's everything you ask for" is another question. But don't assume that just because I'm not saying that, that I'm telling you to talk to the hand. Because I'm not.
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 22:34:00 - [92] Originally by: Jion Tichy Whether or not I will say "OK, here's everything you ask for" is another question. But don't assume that just because I'm not saying that, that I'm telling you to talk to the hand. Because I'm not. You are. Congratulations. Four pages in and you're still laying down smokescreens and taking evasive action. This is not Hunt the Bismarck. Are you Jana's alt? A simple yes or no will suffice. How many accounts and characters do you have? Have you, or any of your other characters (active, dormant, or biomassed), ever scammed and/or supported a scammer(s)? Are you willing to submit to a complete audit of all your characters?
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 22:45:00 - [93] Quote: You are. Congratulations. Four pages in and you're still laying down smokescreens and taking evasive action. This is not Hunt the Bismarck. Varo, I've been exceedingly clear. If you're not interested in my auditing services, perhaps you should work with one of the other auditors here. You have a number of options. I must also mention that I find it very interesting that as a manager of a large fund, that you'd be attacking an auditor who is a comparative outsider. You have a pattern of doing this. Why would a fund manager behave that way?
Taigatoo	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:13:00 - [94] Quote: I've also told a really-and-truly millionaire employer to go fck himself because he thought it would be a good idea to scream at me over the phone. He probably screamed at you, because you were avoiding to give answers to clear questions - just as you did/do here. Next step could possibly be to tell MD to **** themselves. By not answering, in a way, you're doing it already. -T.
Estel Arador	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:14:00 - [95] Originally by: Jion Tichy (...) More talk, and the number of answers remains the same (0). Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:21:00 - [96] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 10/09/2010 23:22:17 Estel, care to explain why you didn't voice your suspicions when the manager of the fund you invested in was preparing to run off with 800 billion? Why was that? You didn't find his behavior strange? Or did you find it strange and not say anything? Taigat: Millionaire cokeheads don't need a reason to scream at people. Other than that, your opinions are taken under advisement. Hope that helps...
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:45:00 - [97] Originally by: Jion Tichy Varo, I've been exceedingly clear. Yes, but not in the way you hoped. Prove that you are not Jana's alt. Answer my other questions. Quote: If you're not interested in my auditing services, perhaps you should work with one of the other auditors here. You have a number of options. Thank you so much for your suggestions. You may rest assured that I'll carefully consider your advice, and give it the attention it deserves. As a member of MD and an MD auditor, what I'm interested in is a healthy audit profession. You are not one of those options. Quote: I must also mention that I find it very interesting that as a manager of a large fund, that you'd be attacking an auditor who is a comparative outsider. You have a pattern of doing this. Why would a fund manager behave that way? Now you're boring me with your attempts to deflect attention, so I'm going to talk down to you, intentionally. Son, I have much more RL corporate experience than you, so what you're trying will not work. Provide MD with the answers it needs. Prove your worth - or go.
Taigatoo	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:52:00 - [98] Jio, after reading up on the things you've said so far plus the answers and comments you've received (many of which you will take under advisement), I am wondering: Why do you actually want to become an auditor? Pay is usually mediocre at best and as far as I understand, the work involved is substantial. -T.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.10 23:54:00 - [99] Varo, you're failing basic civility again. You were rude from the getgo and your manner is deteriorating. The rudeness itself is interesting and forms part of a pattern. Explain why a fund manager would be so intent on attacking an outside auditor. You really want me to go away. Why is that? Since it's boring you, go do something else and we'll continue this here. I have some very interesting suspicions but by all means feel free to go about your business.
israus Minmatar Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.11 00:21:00 - [100] Jion Tichy this whole thread is a joke as you are fast becoming. many of the people on here have tried to be cival with you and ask questions which you've half quoted and missed out those questions to avoid answerings. just for a simple point of fact for you nobody will trust till you disclose your main's/alts for the simple reason nobody will be aduited giving there full api to somebody they don't know and no investor would trust such an audit for the same reason. and before you say "thanks for the advice i'll take it under advisement" you've had the advisement of several high profile MD members and still ignore the issue. you right now are a far bigger risk of being a scammer then bobby ever was prior to cutting and running. as in the fact most of the people repling to you think your a scammer with something to hide. so either reply to peoples questions in full or leave as it is now a fail scam.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.11 00:32:00 - [101] Israus: Thanks for your concern. I won't be going away, and I'm perfectly happy with what's going on right now. The fact is, as you are well aware, there is a pattern of widespread and longstanding malfeasance on MD, to say nothing of complete incompetence. When you say "fail," ask yourself what you think I'm doing. Consider the possibility that the answer isn't what you think it is. What I think is this: I think that there is an in-group here who control the vast majority of investments and the vast majority of scams. They want auditors who are amenable to their bullying so that they can be controlled. That's what I think. This is very similar to the way that stock boiler rooms work.
Tekota legion industries ltd Veni Vidi Vici Alliance	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:06:00 - [102] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha A third guy wants you to hold collateral for his bond. He needs to cover collateral for 3B so he offers 1,250,000 livestock. What do you tell him? For the purpose of full disclosure, as I wouldn't want this issue to sink any future potential offering of mine with references back to this thread, I had a discussion with VV a few days back about possible collateral valuations for around 2,500,000 livestock to potentially cover a 5b bond (at the time jita price was 2400 sell, 2100 buy but with very little price support); that was my first stab at a possible suggestion and after discussion I agreed that 1600 was a more reasonable price point for collateral purposes at the pricing of the time (this may obviously change up or down as prices and discussion move). The reason I'm potentially looking to use livestock as collateral are (a) because obviously it is not a stockpile conducive to rapid liquidation and (b) the opportunity cost or interest rate cost are in my view less than the extra profit gained by holding onto stockpiles longer (as I, rightly or wrongly, predict a long term price rising trend despite short term volatility).
israus Minmatar Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:13:00 - [103] Originally by: Jion Tichy Israus: Thanks for your concern. I won't be going away, and I'm perfectly happy with what's going on right now. The fact is, as you are well aware, there is a pattern of widespread and longstanding malfeasance on MD, to say nothing of complete incompetence. When you say "fail," ask yourself what you think I'm doing. Consider the possibility that the answer isn't what you think it is. What I think is this: I think that there is an in-group here who control the vast majority of investments and the vast majority of scams. They want auditors who are amenable to their bullying so that they can be controlled. That's what I think. This is very similar to the way that stock boiler rooms work. there is no ingroup who control the vast majority of investments I have in the past expressed concerns over the influence the MD elite can have over normal investors. the fact is your avoid like the plauge questions about who you and your alts now you seem to be trying to come across as a guy for the little people standing tall against the evils of the MD elite. problem is the people your going against are the people who give the most back to the general players. now you may not be going anywhere but I can promise you one thing your aduit career won't be going anywhere unless you start disclosing the information people have asked for. because as I said before nobody will give some random alt the time of day and give the full API or trust that persons judgement unless they have been through the same system. you don;t want to give the information publicly fine get yourself aduited
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:22:00 - [104] Submit to a full API audit of GTFO! Seriously, you've been nothing but a giant douchebag. Even if you started doing audits, I would rather invest in Yih who was certain to scam before investing in an offering you have audited. Answer the questions you have been asked and ignored or continue to look like the ******ed kid on the short bus!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:28:00 - [105] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 11/09/2010 01:30:44 Quote: there is no ingroup who control the vast majority of investments I have in the past expressed concerns over the influence the MD elite can have over normal investors. You're effectively contradicting yourself. I agree with you by the way. The fact is, many of these gents came in rude. I've been called an idiot, all sorts of other things. Breaker: Try phrasing that again, this time in Grownup. When people behave that way I'm not going to do what they want! Let's say I did allow you to audit me. What would that tell you? Nothing! In an environment where everyone has 2-3 accounts, or more, an audit of one account shows very little. One of my characters is from late 2003. But you wouldn't see him in an API audit because he's on a different account. Therefore, it would do nothing for your reasonable expectation of trust, and it would have much more impact on my own security measures. So the answer is no! I would almost certainly have said no even if the initial requests were polite and not belligerent. In other words, all this is just security theatre.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:31:00 - [106] Originally by: Jion Tichy Let's say I did allow you to audit me. What would that tell you? Nothing! In an environment where everyone has 2-3 accounts, or more, an audit of one account shows very little. One of my characters is from late 2003. But you wouldn't see him in an API audit because he's on a different account. If you are not willing to audit a potential client on ALL accounts, then you are not worth doing audits. Hiding crap like you just mentioned means that you are nothing more than a scammer you are trying to cover up in an audit!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:33:00 - [107] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 11/09/2010 01:33:43 Breaker: You can rephrase your previous statement, politely. And you may submit ALL of your accounts to an audit. Otherwise you're just a scammer! Quote: Hiding crap like you just mentioned Hiding != mention.
Rykker Bow Gallente Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:36:00 - [108] Originally by: Breaker77 Submit to a full API audit of GTFO! Seriously, you've been nothing but a giant douchebag. Even if you started doing audits, I would rather invest in Yih who was certain to scam before investing in an offering you have audited. qft any audit made by Jion is going to be full of doubt as to who he really is and his abilities. He's made quite a few people mad who will be gunning for him for quite a while that any posts of his will be peppered with trolls and doubters. There are so many scammers out there looking for another way back in I can't stop thinking that you are only setting yourself up as an auditor to help your alts in the future. You have conviently side stepped many questions I would like answered.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:36:00 - [109] Originally by: Jion Tichy Breaker: You can rephrase your previous statement, politely. Deal with it or cry to mommy! Quote: And you may submit ALL of your accounts to an audit. Otherwise you're just a scammer! I have unlike you ****head!
Varo Jan Caravanserai Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:39:00 - [110] Originally by: Jion Tichy Explain why a fund manager would be so intent on attacking an outside auditor. You really want me to go away. Why is that? Since it's boring you, go do something else and we'll continue this here. I have some very interesting suspicions but by all means feel free to go about your business. Even for you, that was a clumsy attempt at deflection. No cigar, not even a cigarillo. You've had your four pages of attention, Jion/Jana. No doubt you know you're not going to become an MD auditor, and why. But please, do continue without me. By all means continue to prattle to yourself in this thread.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:40:00 - [111] Oh wait!! My fourth account hasn't been subject ot an audit, but anyone with half an ounce of common sense knows how to use EVE Search and can easily make the connections I have between myself, the MD audit fund, the research alliance I run, and the holding character in Cistas Hydra fund. Then again, you had to ask us if 100% of every large offering has failed! More proof you don't have a clue how to do an audit!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:42:00 - [112] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 11/09/2010 01:44:10 Quote: any audit made by Jion is going to be full of doubt as to who he really is and his abilities. He's made quite a few people mad who will be gunning for him for quite a while that any posts of his will be peppered with trolls and doubters. As all threads by auditors are. You're among the group trying hard to prevent an outside auditor. Isn't that interesting! You're saying that an outside auditor has so much power that he can cause people to follow him around from thread to thread? Quote: There are so many scammers out there looking for another way back in I can't stop thinking that you are only setting yourself up as an auditor to help your alts in the future. You can tell this by how unctuous I am to the guys who have iskies. Right? Much safer to trust the people who are in the in-group. Including numerous Bad Bobby alts. Originally by: Varo Jan But please, do continue without me. Oh, I will indeed.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:45:00 - [113] Edited by: Breaker77 on 11/09/2010 01:46:01 Originally by: Jion Tichy As all threads by auditors are. You're among the group trying hard to prevent an outside auditor. Isn't that interesting! You're saying that an outside auditor has so much power that he can cause people to follow him around from thread to thread? I would suggest you read my 2nd post to your last reply and then figure out how to use your brain to figure it out. If you can't make the connections, then your fail as an auditor. I made my posting mistakes very blatant and obvious, and it was even an accident how I ****ed it up so bad. edit: to sweeten the pot. I'll give you 100 mil ISK if you can make any of those connections.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:47:00 - [114] Originally by: Jion Tichy Let's say I did allow you to audit me. What would that tell you? Nothing! Wrong Originally by: Jion Tichy In an environment where everyone has 2-3 accounts, or more, an audit of one account shows very little. Wrong Originally by: Jion Tichy One of my characters is from late 2003. But you wouldn't see him in an API audit because he's on a different account. Therefore, it would do nothing for your reasonable expectation of trust, and it would have much more impact on my own security measures. Wrong - it is possible to link accounts via audit even if you don't provide all API Keys. Especially with people like yourself who don't understand the audit process. It should be obvious if you were to submit to an audit all API keys would be requested, in particular your 2003 alt. Janya's would also probably be requested. But that's all irrelevant now, as I doubt any auditor would consider you an appropriate character to audit. Possibly Ramingo, which would further damage his credability. Why don't you ask him? Originally by: Jion Tichy In other words, all this is just security theatre. Security theatre = audits are useless? You confirmed you don't believe in investments in Eve in another thread. You've now implied you believe audits are useless. Somewhere VV will be turning a dangerous shade of purple, incoming, incoming... Please don't go btw, I'm starting to like you. When's the first audit due?
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:49:00 - [115] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 11/09/2010 01:49:51 Breaker: I suggest you use your brain to figure out the basic civility that most little boys learn at a younger age. Let me know when you figure it out! Phoebe: Reading comprehension. Seek it.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:52:00 - [116] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 11/09/2010 01:49:51 Breaker: I suggest you use your brain to figure out the basic civility that most little boys learn at a younger age. Let me know when you figure it out! Did you read my edit? Are you smart enough to figure it out? Since you didn't get it, my last post wasn't so much as negativity on you, it was about how stupid I was in screwing up on myself.
Phoebe Halliwel	Posted - 2010.09.11 01:54:00 - [117] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 11/09/2010 01:49:51 Breaker: I suggest you use your brain to figure out the basic civility that most little boys learn at a younger age. Let me know when you figure it out! Phoebe: Reading comprehension. Seek it. Reported for incivility
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.11 02:17:00 - [118] Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Reported for incivility Awww why did you have to report him We seem to have ran him off.
Krythas	Posted - 2010.09.11 02:52:00 - [119] I think Jion is actually a politician in real life, he manages to avoid very direct questions like a true professional. How can you take a statement like Originally by: Phoebe Halliwel Why are you arguing at such length over "civility" but ignoring Thoraemond, Cyaxares II and VV's questions/comments about your identity? and answer it with "I'll take that under advisement" when you just defined that as you saying Originally by: Jion Tichy When I say "taken under advisement," it's the short version of "I'm listening to what you have to say, and I may or may not act on every piece of advice that I receive, but your opinion is appreciated and will be taken into account." so, lets recap MD: "Why are you ignoring questions ?" Jion: "I'm listening to what you have to say, and I may or may not act on every piece of advice that I receive, but your opinion is appreciated and will be taken into account." MD: "Are you Jana's alt?" Jion: "I'm listening to what you have to say, and I may or may not act on every piece of advice that I receive, but your opinion is appreciated and will be taken into account." After this thread, I personally wouldn't want to have anything to do with anything he touches.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2010.09.11 02:53:00 - [120] Originally by: Jion Tichy I do require that those who I will deal with behave in a professional manner if they expect responses from me. Jion Tichy, considering the above quotation and your choice to not respond to my post above, I wonder: Did you fail to see my post? Did you take my post "under advisement" and I should expect to see a response in the future? Did you, despite my intention to be polite, choose to interpret my post as "impolite" (or "unprofessional")? (If so, I'd appreciate an explanation as I aim to be polite and to learn from others.) Did you choose not to respond for some other reason, such as not wanting to answer my question? á á
Zea Aestria	Posted - 2010.09.11 04:59:00 - [121] Originally by: Jion Tichy So the answer is no! I would almost certainly have said no even if the initial requests were polite and not belligerent. So, when you previously claimed to take suggestions "under advisement," you had already made up your mind to say no? At least you were civil when you were lying.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.11 06:15:00 - [122] Quote: One of my characters is from late 2003 The Gallente one? Quote: You've now implied you believe audits are useless. Somewhere VV will be turning a dangerous shade of purple, incoming, incoming... I get purple about things I deem worth fighting after. If you notice, I stopped caring of here and this is worse. - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.11 06:39:00 - [123] It's now pretty clear the OP is either a troll or lacking in basic reasoning skills. I suspect the former and suggest we all stop flattering his ego by feeding him. In the unlikely event that he produces a post (or an audit!) containing a degree of substance (beyond 'No U'!) then it might be worth the drain on time and energy involved in engaging again.
Mme Pinkerton United Engineering Services	Posted - 2010.09.11 07:04:00 - [124] [tinfoilhat] This whole thread is likely to be a smokescreen. It bundles a big part of the attention of MD in one completely irrelevant place. No matter how long we/you argue, there is no realistic danger of Tichy ever becoming a trusted auditor in here. Time to get out of this thread and back to business as usual. Time to make sure we didn't miss anything important slip by while being busy raging at this "auditor". [/tinfoilhat]
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries manufacturing disaster	Posted - 2010.09.11 07:12:00 - [125] Hello, and welcome to MD, I would like to take the opportunity to welcome you to the rank of auditor. This is a well thrusted and respected position in EVE. And as many stickies on rep grinding have pointed out, it ranges way above, step stoning, and ponzies in terms of MD REP and even ISK/MTH aka. ROI. Before you throw away of recommending your clients to get a full or partial subsidized audit through the MD audit fund. You should really see it as an income bonus for auditors, because that is what it is, it holds no governance over who becomes auditors. Also, do not listen to all the naysayers in here. They are just mad because they do not see the simplicity in the complexity that we do. Standardized auditor tools would have prevented the obvious scam that was T4U/Ebank/Dbank etc. And the fact is that we need more auditors in here, and it is not helping that people like Ray, Lecherito, VV, Varo, Breaker, MMe, Joan Colider, AC155, Cosmo, PP, Chribba, Grendell, Kazzac, Shar, Hexx, Caleb, Raw, Rawblood, Rawmeat etc. Trolls every newcomer because of their own inferiority complex! The fact of the matter is that the simple fact is that i thrusted him, and was lured into a hypnotized state, because of over 600 days of professionalism and business!
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.11 18:52:00 - [126] Gentlemen, Thank you for your recommendations and the time you've kindly taken. As per suggestions from a number of parties, I agree that 1% isn't enough-- we'll start with 2%. I'm glad we've established such a good rapport here. This is what communication can accomplish. Further comments and suggestions are appreciated!
Krythas	Posted - 2010.09.12 01:56:00 - [127] Originally by: Jion Tichy Gentlemen, Thank you for your recommendations and the time you've kindly taken. As per suggestions from a number of parties, I agree that 1% isn't enough-- we'll start with 2%. I'm glad we've established such a good rapport here. This is what communication can accomplish. Further comments and suggestions are appreciated! Just incase this is the leadup to a scam and you use this last post to prove your worth to someone who cant be bothered reading 5 pages of forum posts. No, you did not establish a good rapport here, infact - I'd venture to say the exact opposite. Not only that but you've potentially alienated investors from anyone you attempt to audit. If you are a potential client of this person, my advice would be to run away as fast as you can and go find yourself a real auditor Jion Tichy is not to be trusted.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.12 02:15:00 - [128] Originally by: Krythas Jion Tichy is not to be trusted. My offer of 100 mil ISK to him is still valid. It took me a whole 14 seconds to make the connection between me and my alt in the challenge I offered him. If he can not even do this simple task, there is no way any audit by him should be trusted.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 03:24:00 - [129] Breaker, can I get a challenge too ^^? And sorry Jion, I cba to read through all those pages in your thread but it doesn't look good. I suggest if you really want to stick with it, you do a couple of free audits to start with, i.e. to the companies on the LLSE. People will then have the chance of seeing your reporting style in action. Also, make sure you define your objectives clearly and state so in your report, so people know what you audited, what you were looking for, etc.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.12 03:28:00 - [130] Edited by: Breaker77 on 12/09/2010 03:28:42 Originally by: Ramingo Breaker, can I get a challenge too ^^? Can you find the link between me and my research alliance alt? Mail me ingame if you think you have it and the same 100 mil reward will apply.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 05:15:00 - [131] Done. That ISK will go towards my Nyx fund. 8 months of saving and "only" 4 bill to go for the t2 fit thing.
Cheque Please Hot Like Mexico	Posted - 2010.09.12 06:58:00 - [132] Originally by: Jion Tichy Personally, for me, it would be below my risk threshold for obvious reasons [that is, investment in a name like [Cheque Please]...] FWIW, I would also be biased against someone named "Honest Jim," again for obvious reasons. What if said conspicuous named podster had a prize winning smile, a penchant for haiku, and the uncanny ability to quote (from memory!) random snippets of the gospel of GaGa? Such positive character traits say loads more about a person's business integrity than any far-fangled, long-winded 'IPO plan'. I bet you also judge books by their cover, don't you? --- WORMHOLE SERVICE RL Meeting w/ Chribba
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 09:37:00 - [133] Edited by: Ramingo on 12/09/2010 09:39:32 I just had time to read through what was written in your post and do some checking up on the links posted by other. You're a scammer, hypocrit and a douchebag at that for posting with your main Janya, a known scammer, on my audit thread and accusing me of being a potential scammer, then whining with your "auditor" alt about how we both get unfair treatment/are being accused by an elite "blah blah".
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:03:00 - [134] Ramingo, if the word on the street was that your main is Istvaan Shogaatsu, would that make it true? Who's really a hypocrite and a douchebag here?
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:11:00 - [135] Edited by: RAW23 on 12/09/2010 10:12:34 Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:09:51 Ramingo, if the word on the street was that your main is Istvaan Shogaatsu, would that make it true? Who's really a hypocrite and a douchebag here? Obviously, according to your own rules you would encourage him not to reply to such a rude comment.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:16:00 - [136] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:09:51 Ramingo, if the word on the street was that your main is Istvaan Shogaatsu, would that make it true? Who's really a hypocrite and a douchebag here? Cheque Please: By all means flood ISK into Stealing Honest. Someone with a name like that is below my personal risk threshold on the basis of the name alone. The answer is still you. It's funny how you're in Janya's alt corp, post in same threads and on related subjects and with similar timestamps and then make a direct u-turn towards me in an effort to create a diversion. I assume you scammed with Janya, then decided to see what harm you could do as auditor (and do so with a self-professed alt) perhaps with the intent of auditing 1 of your own future bonds and scamming both the audit fee, investments, and leave the audit profession on M&D in shambles. I can honestly say I'm very glad M&D gave you such a hard grilling - who knows what you could have gotten away with.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:19:00 - [137] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:23:13 Raw23: I've kept my opinions of Ramingo's audit mostly to myself. Why? Because it's not my business. He can now look forward to some constructive criticism from me. Ramingo: I will be stopping by your threads. Krythas: Again, I appreciate your opinions and the time you've taken.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:31:00 - [138] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:23:13 Raw23: I've kept my opinions of Ramingo's audit mostly to myself. Why? Because it's not my business. He can now look forward to some constructive criticism from me. Ramingo: I will be stopping by your threads. Krythas: Again, I appreciate your opinions and the time you've taken. Given that you already posted your "constructive" criticism on my thread with Janya, calling my audit service a potential scam and the whole thing "fishy" I don't see how you can post any worse slander. Except the fact that you've just admitted here you're going to troll my post will only make you look like more of a joke and serve no purpose other than to harm yourself (I've put up with far more, even justified, criticism, than what you can say about an already chewed out subject).
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:35:00 - [139] Quote: Given that you already posted your "constructive" criticism on my thread with Janya Do you have any basis whatsoever for this statement? Or are you just repeating what you've heard here? If you don't have any basis for it, don't make the accusation! Others could equally accuse you and tar you as a scammer. Would you enjoy that? Because that's what I think.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:41:00 - [140] Edited by: RAW23 on 12/09/2010 10:42:22 Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:37:26 Quote: Given that you already posted your "constructive" criticism on my thread with Janya Do you have any basis whatsoever for this statement? Or are you just repeating what you've heard here? If you don't have any basis for it, don't make the accusation! Others could equally accuse you and tar you as a scammer. Would you enjoy that? Because that's what I think. Quote: Except the fact that you've just admitted here you're going to troll my post The word "troll" is misused these days by many of the youngfolk. It's hardly trolling to share my thoughts that I believe that you are a scammer and that you are connected with the individual whose audit you first ran. We can talk about that here as much as you want, in addition to your other threads. He doesn't really need a basis. You won't disclose your main, so he and everyone else are free to make whatever assumptions they like. The lack of information is entirely your own responsibility.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:45:00 - [141] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:46:32 Quote: You won't disclose his main, so he and everyone else are free to make whatever assumptions they like. If I did, how would that help you? Be honest. Just saying, in the environment of 3 accounts per person... My main has not been mentioned here yet and is not connected in any way with any criminal activity ever that I can remember, and that includes piracy. Quote: He doesn't really need a basis. Then I wouldn't need a basis for making equal accusations of Ramingo-- but I do have a basis.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:51:00 - [142] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:46:32 Quote: You won't disclose his main, so he and everyone else are free to make whatever assumptions they like. If I did, how would that help you? Be honest. Just saying, in the environment of 3 accounts per person... My main has not been mentioned here yet and is not connected in any way with any criminal activity ever that I can remember, and that includes piracy. It's a purely minimal basis from which to start. Your word about your undisclosed main is obviously worthless until people can start investigating who you are. If you really think that not knowing someone's main has no security implications then you are REALLY not cut out to be even a troll/scam auditor.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:55:00 - [143] Edited by: Ramingo on 12/09/2010 10:56:17 Jion, I HAVE been called scammer a fair amount of times in that thread yet none of it was based on any proof whatsoever and stems from the fact that I did a check on a char known to have scammed. I really don't care what you think however. The difference between you and me is that I've conducted a fully legit on Lucyna's business already, before doing the check on Tirnuen to see if it was a new owner and who he would owe isk to. Next, I've disclosed my mains, all 3 of them, and I've never made any attempt at hiding them no matter where I've posted on the forum. You on the other hand are trying to build credibility with an alt, your main who could be Riethe for all we know. The fact that you dodge questions (if you read my thread, you'll see that I've answered and responded to every accusation as best as I could, even to repetitive questions), refuse to disclose your main (why wouldn't you? Got something to hide?), and are very aggressive in your responses, coupled with the fact that most people have strong inclinations to believe your main or an alt of yours is Janya (which I investigated for myself, and thus make a claim based on my own findings, which you've been unable to debunk) shows that you're not exactly trustworthy. In addition I've also started out with a slight bit of rep from my Faction War time where I FC'd fleets, led my own corp complete with the 2nd largest cap fleet in all 4 militias (beat only by Core Impulse, which we merged into later),including a supercap, had as only real corp rule no scamming, created and directed the Caldari Militia's faction war alliance, moderated the Caldari pvp channel, lent isk to people on M&D, etc... means that I've got far more credibility than you've maneuvered yourself into with your pretentious yet information-lacking posts. P.S.: And in spite of that I'm still fighting to overcome the blunder that was my second "check". Why in the world would you be expecting to receive any better judgment when you've been openly deceitful.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 10:55:00 - [144] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:56:58 Quote: If you really think that not knowing someone's main has no security implications What I think is that it's security theatre, in the sense that you can never really know who someone's main is. Hell, someone's "main" could have changed hands ten times and you wouldn't necessarily know it. Therefore, the appearance of security based on ostensibly knowing someone's main is, as you put it, only a starting point. Originally by: Ramingo and are very aggressive in your responses We'll be talking further in your threads.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:02:00 - [145] Quote: We'll be talking further in your threads. Feel free to post whatever and wherever you want, but if you want a legit response from me in my thread, other than a "you're a scammer/troll" then you're going to have to answer peoples' questions in your own thread first. And this is not me evading the spotlight. Anybody that didn't come with a troll (i.e. Godsmack's 1 word post "Scam") has received a direct response from me. Perhaps you should look through my thread completely first, then compare my type of answers to the same questions to the way you've decided to respond to yours.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:07:00 - [146] Ramingo, one of the things that I think about you, based on reading your responses to the sort of disrespectful treatment dished out by these people, is that you are a person who will accept all manner of abuse, and is afraid to stand up for himself. That's what I think about you. We'll be talking further in your threads.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:11:00 - [147] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 10:58:17 Quote: If you really think that not knowing someone's main has no security implications What I think is that it's security theatre, in the sense that you can never really know who someone's main is. Hell, someone's "main" could have changed hands ten times and you wouldn't necessarily know it. Therefore, the appearance of security based on ostensibly knowing someone's main is, as you put it, only a starting point. LOL I would suggest you get hold of some textbooks on critical thinking but I think you'll need to do some work to cover the fundamentals first.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:13:00 - [148] Edited by: Ramingo on 12/09/2010 11:16:26 The way I see it the abuse is an initiation and I have been warned of it before I even conducted my first audit and chose to go through with it anyway. I don't think that's what someone spineless would do. I also encouraged you/tried to help you until I noticed the connections between you and Janya and decided to investigate myself, at which point I realised that you called me a scammer with 1 char, then tried to build up some sort of rapport/friendship with Jion, at which case I "took the fight to you" as opposed to letting myself get pushed over. If you want to approach my thread with the same style of unsubstantiated arguments as you have shown to use in your own, then I don't think I have anything to worry about. Well, other than the fact that you're too much of a coward to let me know who your "older than Ram and all others put together" is. P.S.: I've only been playing for only around 2 years, which is even less than Ramingo's age, yet if you want to start a chest beating game, post your main.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:14:00 - [149] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 11:16:09 Quote: I would suggest you get hold of some textbooks on critical thinking but I think you'll need to do some work to cover the fundamentals first. My bookshelves are full of literally hundreds of books about military information theory among other things. I recommend that you start with a book called "Curing Analytic Pathologies." I could give you a huge reading list but you wouldn't read it, so why would I bother? Originally by: Ramingo P.S.: I've only been playing for only around 2 years, which is even less than Ramingo's age, yet if you want to start a chest beating game, post your main. Interesting.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:22:00 - [150] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 11:16:09 Quote: I would suggest you get hold of some textbooks on critical thinking but I think you'll need to do some work to cover the fundamentals first. My bookshelves are full of literally hundreds of books about military information theory among other things. I recommend that you start with a book called "Curing Analytic Pathologies." I could give you a huge reading list but you wouldn't read it, so why would I bother? Originally by: Ramingo P.S.: I've only been playing for only around 2 years, which is even less than Ramingo's age, yet if you want to start a chest beating game, post your main. Interesting. Military information theory has so much to do with English Literature, right? Interesting? Every corp/alliance I've applied to has a full background of my trading history. The BIGGEST difference between you and me is that I am doing audits with my main and have disclosed my alts several times, you on the other hand try to do so with an alt, refuse to post your mains, and cry when people grill you for it. I'm also more than happy to supply my full API keys to any established auditor that wants to take a look at anything I've done so far, to see that I've never scammed before. They can interview friends and see I've handled billions of isk before both in money borrowed, money lent, ships and mods hauled, etc... Are you willing/able to state the same? I think not. It's time for you to find a different profession or try starting up another audit service with an alt of yours, and this time cater to the whims of the M&D community, which although draconic, help weed out people like yourself.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:26:00 - [151] Quote: Military information theory has so much to do with English Literature, right? Nonsequitur. Quote: Interesting? Every corp/alliance I've applied to has a full background of my trading history. No, that's not why your statement was interesting. It was interesting for two reasons.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:39:00 - [152] Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: Military information theory has so much to do with English Literature, right? Nonsequitur. Quote: Interesting? Every corp/alliance I've applied to has a full background of my trading history. No, that's not why your statement was interesting. It was interesting for two reasons. You're an idiot and making yourself look more and more like a troll with statements like that. I'm not even going to bother asking "what two reasons" as I'm sure you're still busy coming up with some sort of space-filler/justification. Anyway, for all I care this discussion is over as continuing it with you is pointless. Your statements are not based on evidence, they lack facts, you're stubborn and refuse to see how you messed up, or in the very least acknowledge it yet refuse to adapt. You're a scammer or in the very least a bad troll, as people have pointed out in abundance before. If anybody decides to give you their full API keys for an audit it's their own fault if you use the information against them, for your own benefit, and/or they don't get their bond filled/have to pay for a different auditor.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:48:00 - [153] Ramingo, you made a false claim, practically in the same breath as you accuse someone else of lying. And then you accuse someone else of being an idiot! Why so belligerent?
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:49:00 - [154] Well Ramingo found my alt. ISK sent. Still awaiting Jion Tichy to find it. So far he's all talk about how good he is as an auditor, but not smart enough to find the simple things.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:52:00 - [155] Edited by: Ramingo on 12/09/2010 11:56:36 Thanks Breaker. Because you kept your word and it was a really simple task, I'm going to offer you an audit for free on the next small (under 5 bill) investment you're thinking of investing in, given that the bond-issuer actually is fine with getting an audit done. Edit: Originally by: Jion Tichy Ramingo, you made a false claim, practically in the same breath as you accuse someone else of lying. And then you accuse someone else of being an idiot! Why so belligerent? BTW Jion the evidence against you is overwhelming: - In alt corp of a known scammer, Janya, "because ith as 0% tax". Right...no other corp has 0% tax and 1 mill isk is too much to create your own corp. - Your timestamps on some threads match exactly with Janya (i.e. Janya posts, 10 mins after Jion posts, another 10 mins after Janya posts again) - You refuse vehemently to post your main/alts, even though everybody else does it, in spite of getting criticism. WHAT ARE YOU HIDING? - You don't respond to direct questions, seeking instead to waffle/deflect focus. - Your tone of writing is almost identical to posts made with Janya. Given that your choice of language/words/expressions is not exactly like that of average Joe MD, that's yet another huge coincidence. - You waffle - You refuse to post your main - You waffle - Blah blah You're a scammer and anybody that pays you for an audit is wasting isk. Anybody that invests in a bond you audited is most likely investing in a scam of an alt of yours.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:52:00 - [156] Quote: Still awaiting Jion Tichy to find it. So far he's all talk about how good he is as an auditor, but not smart enough to find the simple things. Yes, Ramingo jumps to the leash. Unlike him, I don't jump through hoops for people who are disrespectful. I didn't even bother looking for your alt.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:57:00 - [157] Originally by: Jion Tichy I don't jump through hoops for people who are disrespectful. I didn't even bother looking for your alt. Thanks, we will be sure to keep this handy so any audits you do get, investors can see that you won't bother doing a full audit.
Ramingo Caldari Payable on Death	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:59:00 - [158] Edited by: Ramingo on 12/09/2010 12:00:33 Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: Still awaiting Jion Tichy to find it. So far he's all talk about how good he is as an auditor, but not smart enough to find the simple things. Yes, Ramingo jumps to the leash. Unlike him, I don't jump through hoops for people who are disrespectful. I didn't even bother looking for your alt. The only people I jump to the leash for are my corpmates. I have stood my ground through all this but I've admitted my mistakes. You just keep posting the same nonesense. You express yourself eloquently, but in the end you don't have any facts. Your statements are excrements wrapped in giftwrapping, to put it bluntly. The fact that you are so stubborn and refuse to acknowledge your many shortcomings and defeat on M&D makes me also question your intelligence. Edit: I've made not a single false statement in this thread. But once again you fail to supply any evidence. And btw, it took me 5 minutes to find Breaker's alt. For 100 mill, that's 2 bill isk per hour of effort. Beats my 150 mill an hour doing missions, so it wasn't stupid - it was a business decision. Plus I found it funny that you couldn't do it.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.12 11:59:00 - [159] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 11:21:15 Originally by: Raw23 I would suggest you get hold of some textbooks on critical thinking but I think you'll need to do some work to cover the fundamentals first. My bookshelves are full of literally hundreds of books about military information theory among other things. As I said, you don't appear to be ready for books like these and should really brush up on your fundamentals first. For instance, you need to understand that you cannot complete a job that you haven't yet begun. Quote: I recommend that you start with a book called "Curing Analytic Pathologies." I could give you a huge reading list but you wouldn't read it, so why would I bother? Well, the study looks interesting but I'm not sure I'll have time to read the whole 77 pages this afternoon. Why don't you save me a bit of time and just give me the reference to the pages that explain how to determine someone's trustworthiness before gathering any basic data on that person.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 12:00:00 - [160] Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 12:01:36 Breaker: if you're being disrespectful you won't get anything out of me. Anyone who enters into any sort of agreement with me will be aware of that plain and simple fact. Originally by: Raw23 Well, the study looks interesting but I'm not sure I'll have time to read the whole 77 pages this afternoon. Why don't you save me a bit of time and just give me the reference to the pages that explain how to determine someone's trustworthiness before gathering any basic data on that person. Raw23: You can consider it a basic primer on critical thinking, as well as security theatre.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.12 12:10:00 - [161] Originally by: Jion Tichy Edited by: Jion Tichy on 12/09/2010 12:01:36 Breaker: if you're being disrespectful you won't get anything out of me. Anyone who enters into any sort of agreement with me will be aware of that plain and simple fact. Originally by: Raw23 Well, the study looks interesting but I'm not sure I'll have time to read the whole 77 pages this afternoon. Why don't you save me a bit of time and just give me the reference to the pages that explain how to determine someone's trustworthiness before gathering any basic data on that person. Raw23: You can consider it a basic primer on critical thinking, as well as security theatre. Thanks - but I teach critical thinking in RL. Which is why I very much doubt that the contents will provide any justification for your contention that there is no reason to reveal your main and other characters. As I say, if you could just direct me to the relevant pages I'll be able to tell you if I agree with the arguments there.
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 12:18:00 - [162] Quote: Thanks - but I teach critical thinking in RL. Which is why I very much doubt that the contents will provide any justification for your contention that there is no reason to reveal your main and other characters. As I say, if you could just direct me to the relevant pages I'll be able to tell you if I agree with the arguments there. For someone who claims to teach critical thinking, the claims that you make are full of logical fallacies. Are my statements so intimidating to you that instead of addressing them directly, you need to address things that I didn't actually say? How much easier that must be! As I said, more rapport-building will have to happen later.
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.12 12:22:00 - [163] Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: Thanks - but I teach critical thinking in RL. Which is why I very much doubt that the contents will provide any justification for your contention that there is no reason to reveal your main and other characters. As I say, if you could just direct me to the relevant pages I'll be able to tell you if I agree with the arguments there. For someone who claims to teach critical thinking, the claims that you make are full of logical fallacies. Are my statements so intimidating to you that instead of addressing them directly, you need to address things that I didn't actually say? How much easier that must be! So, you're not claiming that there is no point in you revealing your main?
Jion Tichy	Posted - 2010.09.12 12:26:00 - [164] Quote: So, you're not claiming that there is no point in you revealing your main? For a critical thinking teacher you have trouble parsing some pretty basic statements. Now I really have to dash, have a good morning!
RAW23	Posted - 2010.09.12 12:31:00 - [165] Originally by: Jion Tichy Quote: So, you're not claiming that there is no point in you revealing your main? For a critical thinking teacher you have trouble parsing some pretty basic statements. Now I really have to dash, have a good morning! You will have to excuse me for failing to penetrate your meaning. So, just to clarify it for me, one more time, why won't you reveal your other characters?
Krythas	Posted - 2010.09.12 12:37:00 - [166] Originally by: Jion Tichy waffle Who woulda thunk it. 5 pages down and still not one question answered. I guess we are all too rude for him.
Sexy Suzie	Posted - 2010.09.12 13:31:00 - [167] To keep this on topic... People who are considering launching an offering should not approach this auditor. He has undisclosed alts, and is associated with an known scammer (may in fact be an alt of Janya Rykayn). He lacks knowledge of both MD and auditing. Offerings which he audits may be damaged by association.
Lillith Starfire	Posted - 2010.09.12 14:34:00 - [168] You guys just got trolled for 6 pages by this guy lol.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2010.09.12 17:30:00 - [169] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 12/09/2010 17:31:33 Quote: My main has not been mentioned here yet and is not connected in any way with any criminal activity ever that I can remember, and that includes piracy. Also, for whatever it's worth, my main is older than you and Ramingo put together, and older than the vast majority of people posting on this thread. A 20 days old EvE player could be more honest than you and me added together, age does not matter. Originally by: Ramingo had access to corp hangars worth billions when I was in IT Uh, with what character? Care to PM it? I was Logistics Officer (yeah I also had access to hangars, did not even think about that till now mwahaha!) for my signature corp in IT. Quote: Hell, someone's "main" could have changed hands ten times and you wouldn't necessarily know it. You kinda can do that. And surely, NOT knowing whose guy a main could be, is worse than knowing a tentative main. It's still someone to hold accountable anyway. Someone with something to lose. Quote: The way I see it the abuse is an initiation and I have been warned of it before I even conducted my first audit and chose to go through with it anyway. It's not an initiation, it's something that just happens. Also, don't believe it will cease. One of the worst issues with auditing is that you are ALWAYS held accountable because investors CBA reading the "risk assessment" part and take any audit as "faith conduit". So even if you did 110% due diligence and the investee scams, you will be flamed, defaced, burned. I am sorry if have to be brutally honest with you, I don't want to see people working very hard but one day give up because they were not ready for the hardship. Quote: Thanks - but I teach critical thinking in RL Now I officially envy you! - Auditing & consulting When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz

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