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RiskyFrisky
Under the Table Inc.
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Posted - 2010.09.13 12:39:00 -
[1]
Instead of +2-5 implants. Why not add a little extra, like +6-10 implants?
Introduce the skill "Advanced Cybernetics"
Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants!
>.> _
Starcakes are the answer to life. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.09.13 12:40:00 -
[2]
There are good ways to do it (remove them, give everyone +9 or so on base attributes, reimburse SP in learning skills), and there are terrible ways to do it (yours).
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uNtOldPAIN
Minmatar Covert-Nexus
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Posted - 2010.09.13 12:41:00 -
[3]
How about... just train them.
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RiskyFrisky
Under the Table Inc.
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Posted - 2010.09.13 12:41:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Furb Killer There are good ways to do it (remove them, give everyone +9 or so on base attributes, reimburse SP in learning skills), and there are terrible ways to do it (yours).
I know right? _
Starcakes are the answer to life. |
Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.09.13 12:51:00 -
[5]
Originally by: RiskyFrisky Instead of +2-5 implants. Why not add a little extra, like +6-10 implants?
Introduce the skill "Advanced Cybernetics"
Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants!
>.>
I love the idea, when I started 2 days into the game I had enough money for a set of +5's, plus a little extra to buy my first Golem to grind for 2 billion ISK +10's!
Just what we need not only can the new not compete but lets widen the gap for the rich and skilled.
How bout thinking before you post and don't forget there is a forum for Features and Ideas!
-- Tactical Responder who is Organized and a Leading-edge Linguist |
stoicfaux
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Posted - 2010.09.13 14:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: RiskyFrisky Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants!
How many people would PvP regularly with billions in implants?
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Hakkar'al Gallente
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Posted - 2010.09.13 14:50:00 -
[7]
Not everyone is a PvPer
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.09.13 14:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hakkar'al Gallente Not everyone is a PvPer
Right so we should unbalance PVP!
Also I would take special pleasure in roling a Catalyst or Thrasher Alt to get epic pod popping tears, after my main takes a small sec hit from disassembling there ship with 1400mm's
Cause balence is important!
-- Tactical Responder who is Organized and a Leading-edge Linguist |
John Holt
Caldari Tactical Trading Partnership
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Posted - 2010.09.13 15:01:00 -
[9]
See this CSM Link on the subject.
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Sisohiv
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Posted - 2010.09.13 15:26:00 -
[10]
If they wanted to get rid of learning skills and I haven't seen anything suggesting they do, they could just give us monthly remaps. |
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oolk
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.09.13 17:14:00 -
[11]
Originally by: John Holt See this CSM Link on the subject.
Nope...then its just a matter of sps...we took time Quote: TIME
to train both categories to 5 thus cuting training time for other skills we badly needed meanwhile.
Just like them now.
With the exception...we didnt had double speed training...
Ah the old holly we had to do it so they will too thread resurection Batman
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: uNtOldPAIN How about... just train them.
How about... lets solve a crappy game mechanic instead of butthurtly telling people to just deal with it like we all had to.
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Nnamuachs
Caldari Kiith Paktu Hiigaran Protectorate
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Posted - 2010.09.13 18:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Arkanor
Originally by: uNtOldPAIN How about... just train them.
How about... lets solve a crappy game mechanic instead of butthurtly telling people to just deal with it like we all had to.
Obviously the easiest solution is remove the learning skills and be done with it. Nothing wrong with base stats + implants, everybody wins.
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Barkaial Starfinder
Minmatar The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
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Posted - 2010.09.13 19:12:00 -
[14]
The solutions have been made already, there is no point in discussing new bad ones.
We depend on CCP applying them, or not.
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Dzil
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.13 19:43:00 -
[15]
Most of mine are 5-5, a few 5-4. I'd love if they just dropped them. Would let new characters spend their double SP on something actually interesting, instead of a bunch of long term attribute increases that leave them in t1 ships they can't fit.
Retired from corp sales. Time to spend some of this on pretty explosions :) |
Sisohiv
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Posted - 2010.09.14 06:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dzil Most of mine are 5-5, a few 5-4. I'd love if they just dropped them. Would let new characters spend their double SP on something actually interesting, instead of a bunch of long term attribute increases that leave them in t1 ships they can't fit.
Thats a common mistake new players make based on bad advice from old players.
Science, Electronics, Navigation, Spaceship command are all groups of skills but are as well skills. I tell all new people to train those to 4, then train anything with upgrade in it to 3. Pick a race, train ships to Cruiser 3 in it. Try out Industrials, maybe mining ships if they like. Then once they have enough skills to actually use modules and it wont tak more than a few weeks, they can consider 4/4 on learning.
Why people tell people to grind out 2 months of Learning skills is beyond me. Thats fine if its an alt but for a true noob on a main? Thats burnout suicide. |
Flap jak
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Posted - 2010.09.14 06:13:00 -
[17]
just train the damn learning skills! if you don't guess what, your going to train your other skills slower. its the reward of training your learning skills.
gawd nubs these days. __
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Zeuth Proxy
Caldari Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2010.09.14 06:14:00 -
[18]
I always thought that removing learning, giving base attributes to everyone, and reimbursing SP spend in learning was the best bet. Unless there is something Iam missing.
Tbh the longer CCP waits on making a decision on this the bigger the issue will become.
Adding +10 implants is a horrible idea. It already sucks to lose a clone with +4s or +5s I wouldn't want to imagine the rage of people losing +10s. It only benefits the carebears not the PVPers.
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Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2010.09.14 06:27:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 14/09/2010 06:28:37
Originally by: RiskyFrisky Instead of +2-5 implants. Why not add a little extra, like +6-10 implants?
Introduce the skill "Advanced Cybernetics"
Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants!
>.>
Personally I would get rid of learning implants and instead create another tier of elite learning skills (x10 training speed) with 1 to 5 levels.
The gain from this is: people would dare going into PvP again instead of spinning in station in fear of losing their +5 implants. And another skill to train for us collectors. It will also still be a money sink with the cost, and you can also add lp cost to it if you want to.
Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL. |
Psymn
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Posted - 2010.09.14 06:33:00 -
[20]
im being swayed on the learning skills issues. If you still kept a certain amount of attributes re-mappable every so often people would still have to chose where to specialise and such.
Also, while you are at it give everyone a new remap opportunity :p I need to recover from a rather nasty remapping accident :(
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:21:00 -
[21]
Edited by: TheBlueMonkey on 14/09/2010 07:23:31
Originally by: Hakkar'al Gallente Not everyone is a PvPer
Probably shouldn't be playing a pvp game then and before you argue.
If you went to a wow server, when picking the server, would you pick a pvp server if you didn't want to pvp?
edit; oh, as for the op this is the problem. One camp wants the skills gone but everyone gets +10 attributes One camp wants them replaced with implants One camp doesn't care
I think they should just pull them and not boost anything, everyone learns slower and those that have been crying over "having to ocd the skills to 5/5" and go suck an egg. --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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MSC Darklord
Minmatar Shadow Company
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Furb Killer There are good ways to do it (remove them, give everyone +9 or so on base attributes, reimburse SP in learning skills), and there are terrible ways to do it (yours).
My +10 bonus objects to your +9 suggestion. __________________________
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad.
Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Said after a 60 second shut down notice that was then canceled. |
Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:38:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 07:43:42
Quote: I'd love if they just dropped them. Would let new characters spend their double SP on something actually interesting, instead of a bunch of long term attribute increases that leave them in t1 ships they can't fit.
Agree completely, its a horribly designed game mechanic.
Quote: Thats a common mistake new players make based on bad advice from old players.
Is it? You don't need an old player to tell you that, all you need to do is open up evemon and do a 2 week skill train. Evemon will correctly suggest that you basically just log off and not even play for about 3 days while some initial learning skills train. The difference is not small. That may seem like nothing, but a new player is probably excited to try the game, seeing stuff like that is just a turnoff. And unlike almost any other skill in the game, learning skills do not give you any new sand for your sandbox.
Quote: just train the damn learning skills!...... gawd nubs these days.
I trained the "damn learning skills", I'm not a nub, yet at the same time I also recognize how poor of a game mechanic it is.
Quote: Probably shouldn't be playing a pvp game then and before you argue.
I'm not really sure why people have that impression about Eve actually. Almost everyone across null,low,high,wspace spends most of their time carebareing and avoiding fights. Thanks to the mechanics of aggression (stations, gates) and all seeing local almost all small gang combat is completely consensual unless your blind or stupid. (not trying to suggest that theres much shortage of either however).
Quote: One camp wants the skills gone but everyone gets +10 attributes, One camp wants them replaced with implants
Or a bit of both, refund the sp using the system that already exists for that. Increase base attributes evenly to the equiv of 5/4 or 5/5 levels and leave the implant system as it is. I would be fine with solving it via a more granular implant system as well (the high and low end prices would stay the same, but you would have more in the middle)
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Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:38:00 -
[24]
One thing that I have always been wondering about is, how many of those who stay in empire, stay there because they dont want to risk their implants. And if those where replaced with another learning tier instead, how many again of those would decide to go to deep space?
Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL. |
BaldyBob
Minmatar Shondi Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:56:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Flap jak just train the damn learning skills! if you don't guess what, your going to train your other skills slower. its the reward of training your learning skills.
gawd nubs these days.
Echoes my sentiments, well said.
You don't really need to train the learning skills if you don't want to, something I'm sure a lot of people have already said but needs repeating.
Nothing is stopping you from training any skill in this game without first training any of the learning skills. You may train skills a little more slowly than somebody who has made the effort to train the learning skills but that's your choice, surely?
It all comes down to choice.
I choose to train learning skills, it takes me a little longer to get some skills that I require but I have a tradeoff in the long run.
Somebody chooses not to train learning skills, they benefit by getting other skills earlier on than I do.
Where's the problem ?
Make your choice and deal with it.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:59:00 -
[26]
Quote: One thing that I have always been wondering about is, how many of those who stay in empire, stay there because they dont want to risk their implants. And if those where replaced with another learning tier instead, how many again of those would decide to go to deep space?
I basically agree, I've always felt that having to choose between higher risk pvp and fast learning time, or choosing between high grade pirate implants and faster training, was an unfortunate thing to have to choose between. If it was up to me I would ditch that too and just leave implants for skill boosting related stuff. Then again, If it was up to me I would scrap the whole time based training system and instead replace it with a greatly expanded implant system (so you would buy the skill sets, and plug them into your clones, etc) allowing for skills to be economically focused instead, like everything else in the game. But thats just dreaming and I doubt one could ever get a consensus for that kind of a change in eve. To orient back to the OP, I certainly don't feel that the way attribute implants work is nearly as bad of a system as the learning skills are, and they are fundamentally two unrelated topics.
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King Pleasure
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:34:00 -
[27]
Training skills aren't really a bad thing. They separate the wheat from the chaff and the half way intelligent from the downright stupid.
And people don't need everything handed to them on a plate. Taking the time to learn the learning skills is an achievement of sorts, akin to other hard grinds in other MMO's. Hell back in my day we camped that damn cleric epic spawn for two weeks straight and you didn't hear us *****ing and moaning. (Well, you did... but that's not the point!)
And beside all that everyone knows a lot of nice, long grind builds muscle tone.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:37:00 -
[28]
Quote: Where's the problem? Make your choice and deal with it.
Your missing the whole point. This isn't a topic about a bunch of noob's complaining about how much training sucks or something. I for one am about 1.5ish some years old, I've long since trained learning skills to 5/4. This topic doesn't effect me personally, yet I would support getting rid of it *even without a sp refund*. Instead it's about recognizing and correcting a game design flaw.
Eve is about playing in the sandbox. Weather it's being able to fly a new ship or fly it better, use new t2 modules, mine gas, or manufacture new things, skills generally put more sand in your sandbox, new things you can try out or be better at. Learning skills however do not, in addition to that they are heavily bias against new players, the very same players who are trying to learn the game and decide if they want to become a long term member of the Eve community.
Almost all new players learn about evemon and the impact of learning skills almost immediately. For the sake of illustrating my point I have made a new character and put together an initial train for a common ship we all love/hate, the drake. The train is 16 days long including the recommended learning skills. The learning skills take 2d 16h to complete. Granted, not long for many of us who are accustomed to 2-4 weeks for a lvl V. However I have other skills, I can go scan some wormholes, or go pvp, I know other people in the game..... but thats not true for most new players. So evemon is basically telling them (correctly) "Welcome to Eve Online!... now log off and come back in a few days"
But hey as you said, learning skills are a choice right? They don't need to train them! So heres the choice on the above train: 16days with learning skills, OR 26 days without them. Awesome choice huh? And thats only a 2 week plan, I think we all know that most new players will shove a battleship train in there and see what thats like. It's not a small difference. There are many things in game and in life that one could technically choose to do, like autopilot their freighter through lowsec, or jump off a bridge, it doesn't mean you would.
So I and others are saying, just get rid of them, they don't put any sand into the sandbox, its not good game design, and it's a big turnoff for new players who may otherwise get into the game.
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King Pleasure
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:44:00 -
[29]
Edited by: King Pleasure on 14/09/2010 08:45:39
Quote: Granted, not long for many of us who are accustomed to 2-4 weeks for a lvl V. However I have other skills, I can go scan some wormholes, or go pvp, I know other people in the game..... but thats not true for most new players.
I think this is a little bit misleading. A truly new player, I think, has content which will keep them occupied for at least the first two weeks while the training takes place. It's also worth considering the income of a genuinely new player. Fitting out a drake in two weeks isn't something a lot of them have the ISK to do unless they get quite lucky.
Between running the tutorials, the Sisters of Eve arc and generally finding their way around there is enough content for them to have moved up at least into a cruiser, trained some general skills as well as some basic learning skills and met some friendly people.
If they have trouble with a 2 week training time for a whole set of skills which allow them to jump up three tiers of ship then perhaps EVE isn't the right game for them anyway.
**Edit. I should also add that being able to fly a Drake in 16 days or 28 days or 3 months isn't going to help them if they can't find enough things to do in the first two weeks of training.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:59:00 -
[30]
Your point is a fair one, however I would argue that fact is somewhat less important than perception. At some point they will run into realizing how big of a difference 5/4 makes, for me personally if I recall it was after about 1 week into the game.
Are learning skills factually a big deal in the big scheme of things? No, they are not. However they don't add anything to gameplay, they are just a roadblock, one that doesn't need to exist. I want new players training for ships or other fun skills and enjoying their introduction to eve. They already have to get over the common misconception of "time based training + fairly mature game = I can never compete", learning skills are just a slap in the face.
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2010.09.14 09:06:00 -
[31]
Originally by: MSC Darklord My +10 bonus objects to your +9 suggestion.
And my +12 bonus would like to have a word with your +10 bonus.
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Sendraks
The Spice Weasels Must Flow
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Posted - 2010.09.14 09:19:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Covert Kitty I for one am about 1.5ish some years old,
May I just say that for someone who is all of 18months old, your spelling, sentence structure and use of grammar is excellent.
I also think your views on learning skills are pretty spot on as well. |
Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.14 11:36:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Zagdul on 14/09/2010 11:37:02
1. Refund Skill Points
2. Base allotted attribute points we can allocate accordingly.
3. New implants manufactured with PI.
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BaldyBob
Minmatar Shondi Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.09.14 11:48:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Covert Kitty Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 08:49:35
Quote: Where's the problem? Make your choice and deal with it.
Your missing the whole point. This isn't a topic about a bunch of noob's complaining about how much training sucks or something. I for one am about 1.5ish some years old, I've long since trained learning skills to 5/4. This topic doesn't effect me personally, yet I would support getting rid of it *even without a sp refund*. Instead it's about recognizing and correcting a game design flaw.
But surely whether it's a flaw or not is down to personal choice and your point of view. You can't outrightly claim that something is flawed because it's disagreed with.
For me, it's not a game design flaw, it's a mechanism whereby I can improve my training times, which improves my experience of Eve overall because I can learn things faster. Surely that's a mechanism which supports building a pyramid of structure ?
I understand that these learning skills may put off new players, I have no answer to that other than the argument I put forth before, choice. Adapt to the game world you play in or don't. It doesn't mean you have to leave the game or alter the game mechanics, simply play the game the way you want. Why try and affect it for others ?
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betoli
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Posted - 2010.09.14 12:29:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 14/09/2010 06:28:37
Personally I would get rid of learning implants and instead create another tier of elite learning skills (x10 training speed) with 1 to 5 levels.
The gain from this is: people would dare going into PvP again instead of spinning in station in fear of losing their +5 implants. And another skill to train for us collectors. It will also still be a money sink with the cost, and you can also add lp cost to it if you want to.
I agree. The problem with the current training IMO is that the trade off decision available to new players (get stuck in vs take time and be more efficient) actually stops being available once you've learned them. Adding extra tiers of learning would fix that (and make even high tiers of skills practical).
I might suggest that higher tiers apply per subject area "advanced drone studies" rather than modding the attributes to stupidly high values.
And yes I also think implants deter people from PVP. 100m in +4 implants is a lot to lose if you would otherwise just risk a cruiser/BC. And people wonder why low sec is underutilised....
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MSC Darklord
Minmatar Shadow Company
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Posted - 2010.09.14 13:52:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: MSC Darklord My +10 bonus objects to your +9 suggestion.
And my +12 bonus would like to have a word with your +10 bonus.
I think my +10 bonus should meet your +12 and have sexy babies and pump out some +18 stats for us. __________________________
Originally by: CCP Tuxford my bad.
Rest assured I'm being ridiculed by my co-workers.
Said after a 60 second shut down notice that was then canceled. |
Kezzle
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Posted - 2010.09.14 18:17:00 -
[37]
Originally by: BaldyBob
Originally by: Flap jak
You don't really need to train the learning skills if you don't want to... Nothing is stopping you from training any skill in this game without first training any of the learning skills. You may train skills a little more slowly...
This is arrant nonsense.
The difference between training learning skills and not training them is rather more than 'a little' time, in total.
It's a poor game mechanic because it forces a choice (or some sort of unsatisfactory compromise) between long term progression and early-game achievement, in a game which it's hard enough to get new people interested anyway, for all kinds of reasons.
Seeing your character develop initially is a big draw for (MMO)RPG players; denying them any concrete, play-affecting progress of they want to be 'efficient' is just counterproductive.
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Alia Poole
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Posted - 2010.09.14 18:19:00 -
[38]
Originally by: uNtOldPAIN How about... just train them.
This
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 18:26:00 -
[39]
Quote: But surely whether it's a flaw or not is down to personal choice and your point of view. You can't outrightly claim that something is flawed because it's disagreed with.
I believe I can actually. Learning skills are in direct conflict with most of the goals of an mmo and do not fit nicely within the gameplay structure of eve.
1. They effectively only affect new players, the vast majority will have trained them at least to 4/4 within their first few months. 2. They are proven to be a turn off for newer players, not everyone (maybe not you), but accept that many are. Myself included after my "new player experience" I basically stopped playing and training skills for a month and almost quit. I didn't however, and I enjoy the game today. Eve has a lot of rough edges and unpolished features as anyone who has played for awhile knows, learning skills are just one of the more obvious ones. 3. They provide no sand for a players sandbox, they add no gameplay
Those are directly in conflict with many goals of the game. Most people in favor of retaining them are of the mind "I had to do it, so should you", yet is that not an acknowledgement of the issue? Almost nobody looks back on training learning skills fondly. Besides, you would be refunded the sp you sunk into them, so removing them benefits all.
The skill system generally provides something for the player to look forward to. What do learning skills cause the player to look forward to? Looking forward to looking forward faster? The mechanic psychologically doesn't work well, and is out of line with almost every other skill in the game.
---
There were some that opposed the idea of the 24 hr skill queue when ccp announced it, they decry'ed it as being too soft and after all shouldn't people who can login the second their skill stopped training be rewarded? We don't want eve to turn into WoW right? And omg, they were going to get rid of the base attributes being tied to character creation and allow periodic remaps!! Surely PvE servers and raids against the litch king were right around the corner!
Of course, those were all horrible game mechanics that didn't benefit anyone, and these days nobody sane looks back fondly at the days when they had to work their day around trying to get to eve at the right time to continue their skills, or be permanently disadvantaged by a sub optimal character choice. Just accept that Eve is not a perfect game. It is and always has been in a process of improving and polishing, and that doesn't always mean things stay exactly the same.
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King Dave
The Collective
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Posted - 2010.09.14 18:48:00 -
[40]
Why not just remove them, re-allocate the skill points, then don't give any extra attributes? People train stuff too quickly nowadays anyway, I recently did a bs 5 in like 20 days or something ******ed. Game loses interest when you can do stuff too quickly, without any real time investment. --------- "Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child **** in the corp bio and then petition ccp" |
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.09.14 18:57:00 -
[41]
Because then new players are pretty much ****ed.
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Rewind12
Heaven's Army Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.14 19:05:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Rewind12 on 14/09/2010 19:06:35 Umm why not just leave things as they are? Some people did indeed spend time to get them all to lvl5, rank 1 and 3. And when higher rank skills came out loled their arses off at other mates that trained the same skill a few days slower.
You no want speed bonus, you no train. There. You want bonus and no train, train cybernetics , get +4's +5's in yer brain, go pew pew , get podded, rage, rinse , repeat.
Or, be smarter about it, train fast to the minimum lvl4 missioning needs, then grind lvl4's till all those learning skills finish. That's what a friend is doing atm, and i encourage it, also cybernetics to 4 would be a + before starting the learning skills.
But please please please, don't ***** about it. It's your own fault you can't restrain yourself from getting new skills, not the devs' . They just put the options there, you choose what to do with them.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Sodalitas XX
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Posted - 2010.09.14 19:18:00 -
[43]
Quote: Your missing the whole point. This isn't a topic about a bunch of noob's complaining about how much training sucks or something.
You are correct, this thread is about people wanting instant gratification.
Learning skills are a good idea for a main character. Learning skills are usually a stupid idea for a special purpose alt.
You decide if it is advantageous to lose time in the short term to gain accelerated training in the long term. For an alt, which outnumber main characters 2 to 1, they are usually counter productive. It is generally a stupid idea to train 2 months worth of learning skills so that the 3 weeks of training your specialty alt needs to be useful will complete a couple of days earlier.
You have the option, and choice is a good thing.
If a better system is proposed, one that does not "boost everyone's stats by 10" for no apparent reason, then it is worth looking at. Until then you make your choice and live with the consequences, just like every other aspect of EVE.
PS: Some of you people spend WAAAAYYYY too much time worrying about min maxing your experience points. Play the game instead of letting the game play you.
===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you. |
Ghurkan Bloodfire
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Posted - 2010.09.14 19:31:00 -
[44]
If it Aint broke , dont fix it!!
(train yur damned skills like the rest of us had too and stop crying)
/me offers out cheese.
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Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
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Posted - 2010.09.14 19:42:00 -
[45]
Originally by: RiskyFrisky Instead of +2-5 implants. Why not add a little extra, like +6-10 implants?
Introduce the skill "Advanced Cybernetics"
Get rid of learning skills. And make us spend billions in Isk to get 10 implants!
>.>
If this is done, I will need implants to be added to killmails.... I need to know if the ratio of care-bear tears and ISK loss is in proportion to one another when shooting people in the face in internets space!
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Jita Alt666
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Posted - 2010.09.14 20:37:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Jita Alt666 on 14/09/2010 20:41:30 I do not understand why people insist on calling learning skills a design flaw. New players have choices to make, those choices will affect what they can fly and how long it will take to learn to fly what they want.
IMO there is ample room with the learning bonus to get yourself into a semi t2 fit cruiser and then start some learning skills.
Telling new people to grind out learning skills is as stupid as telling new people to grind out t2 large lasers. It is not a game design flaw, its flawed advice for new players.
Most players start the game with a random collection of oh that will be cool skills, only to find that 3/4 of them will have little relevance to the path they wish to take as they discover the universe.
Saying its ok to just lose the sp that learning skills have is also incredibly unfair, 5.376mil of sp at 2000sp per hour is 2688 hours/240 days or 8 months of sp that would be lost on some alts. At $15 a month thats $120 dollars in real life or 2.4bil in plex that your proposing to just make evaporate.
edit: to all the people saying, "in mmo's a players goals should be..." Eve online is not like any other MMO, it has since its inception prided itself on being different than WOW and the other immediate satisfaction online games that are dumbing down society. Claiming the new player experience should emulate other mmo's shows a lack of understanding of eve itself.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 20:49:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 20:50:43 Some of the above statements and repetitions I have already torn apart so I wont repeat my replies to them.
Quote: Saying its ok to just lose the sp that learning skills have is also incredibly unfair
While I stated that I would personally be fine with just loosing them, thats not really on the table. The better solution, and what most people suggest, as well as what the CSM's plan lays out is a reimbursement of any sp invested in learning skills for your immediate redistribution. I certainly see that as fair to everyone.
Quote: I will need implants to be added to killmails
Fairly unrelated to the topic, however a good idea and one that has been brought up a number of times. Many people would like to see implants on their killmails. I would certainly be for it.
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Jita Alt666
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Posted - 2010.09.14 20:51:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Jita Alt666 on 14/09/2010 20:55:38 You havent torn any of them apart. 1. I (and a lot of older players) prefered ghost training (starting a 6 month skill deactivating account - reactivating to finish the skill) to the 24 hour skill queue.
2. Once a week there is a thread on this forum asking why all the races are the same. Not every one likes having standardised beginning skills.
You claim these things are universally accepted. They are not.
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Rewind12
Heaven's Army Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.09.14 20:52:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Rewind12 on 14/09/2010 20:52:58
Originally by: Jita Alt666
Eve online is not like any other MMO, it has since its inception prided itself on being different than WOW and the other immediate satisfaction online games that are dumbing down society. <<---
Mining, mission running have been reported to stimulate a low to moderate IQ increase over a period of 1 year, test subject pool of 1kish.
Ratting and plexing in 0.0 results have shown peeks of 20 points( on the more difficult dungeons..errmmm complexes), while the average seems to surpass that of the mining/missioning. Same period, same subject numbers.
However, more daring test has been run,on subjects locally known as low-level pewpew'ers, risky as it may have been , it yielded unexpected results, on average 70-90% increase in IQ, with peaks of 50 points. The subject pool however failed to resemble the average man, thus being catalogued as primate experiment.
Conclusion : Smarter monkeys in space.
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 21:55:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 21:58:04
Quote: I (and a lot of older players) prefered ghost training (starting a 6 month skill deactivating account - reactivating to finish the skill) to the 24 hour skill queue.
The removal of ghost training, and the implementation of the skill queue are two completely separate topics despite being implemented at the same time. Most people did not ghost train, and those of you that were crying about loosing your little exploit and threatening that CCP would loose tons customers over it were utterly wrong, in fact population growth after apocrypha was great. Again, this post has nothing to do with old players. Like learning skills, the skill queue doesn't mean much to a player who is primarily training 2+ week skills. Thats not true for new players of course, only a fool could not see how big of a benefit the implementation of the skill queue was to the younger group.
Quote: 2. Once a week there is a thread on this forum asking why all the races are the same. Not every one likes having standardised beginning skills.
Those same posts often have little to nothing to do with attribute points. Players are accustomed from other games to races that differ in various ways. Originally Eve was somewhat influenced by that. Though it turned out for the most part to not really work well with Eve and has been slowly removed or played down. Once Incarna is in full form I think you will see those posts reduced somewhat since the character creation system will be redone and polished better. However Eve is quite fundamentally different from other mmo's (for the better imo) and so there will always be some confusion at character creation surrounding this.
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Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2010.09.14 22:03:00 -
[51]
Leave 'em, because they're fine?
Training to +8 in every stat takes, what, a week and a half under the double-speed buff?
The fact that the last couple of points take a lot of time and have minimal impact just makes them identical to 99 percent of skills. Complaining about learning skills is like complaining about cloaking 5, it's your own damned fault for wasting your time instead of realizing that the benefit wasn't worth it.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2010.09.14 22:20:00 -
[52]
This topic is stupid. There are extremely simple and obvious way to get rid of learning skills.
Why suggest something that isnt simple or better?
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Moriel Damodred
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.09.14 22:22:00 -
[53]
New players cannot train advanced learnings to 5 in their first few days anyway. They wont have the money.
That whole argument around new players blah, is total BS, because the reality is they want to make throwaway alts faster. Everyone else had a sig and i felt lonly :( |
TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.09.14 22:27:00 -
[54]
Originally by: MSC Darklord
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: MSC Darklord My +10 bonus objects to your +9 suggestion.
And my +12 bonus would like to have a word with your +10 bonus.
I think my +10 bonus should meet your +12 and have sexy babies and pump out some +18 stats for us.
How about we just cut to the chase and give everyone all level 5s? Or better yet, have 3 servers, main, mirrored test and all level 5 test.
That way all those that want all the skills now can go and "play" on that server and leave others to play a real game? --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Covert Kitty
Amarr ISK Solutions SRS.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 22:40:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 22:45:53
Quote: There are extremely simple and obvious way to get rid of learning skills.
Yup, its right here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modify_or_Remove_Learning_Skills_(CSM)
Quote: That whole argument around new players blah, is total BS, because the reality is they want to make throwaway alts faster.
If I needed more alt's I'd just buy them with isk. As I stated above, you can easily mitigate any potential issues regarding fast alt creation via a number of methods, limiting the 100% skillpoint speed to being usable only once or twice per account. It could also be potentially offset by a reduction in the amount of sp the 100% training time lasts for. There are a few other ways it could be done as well, I don't really care one way or another.
Quote: How about we just cut to the chase and give everyone all level 5s?
Instant full lvl 5's and learning skills have one thing in common: They would-be/are bad game design.
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Lost Greybeard
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Posted - 2010.09.15 01:11:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Covert Kitty Edited by: Covert Kitty on 14/09/2010 22:45:53 Instant full lvl 5's and learning skills have one thing in common: They would-be/are bad game design.
So... um... then why did your CSM link directly advocate giving out automatic skill levels?
That link was a compilation of the worst ideas regarding learning rather than the best, imo.
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Doddy
The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.15 01:12:00 -
[57]
ccp knows exactly how they would remove learning skills (remove and reimburse sp for everyone who trained them) the question is will they? I for one hope they do, as it is clearly puts new players off.
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.09.15 01:18:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Doddy ccp knows exactly how they would remove learning skills (remove and reimburse sp for everyone who trained them) the question is will they? I for one hope they do, as it is clearly puts new players off.
The only question i have left is what's taking them so long.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.15 01:30:00 -
[59]
Here's the reason I dislike learning skills:
When a new character is created, it's given a training bonus. Many bittervets will hoot and holler about how they had to walk uphil in snow backwards...etc... get over it. So, new characters get this... How would anyone who is intelligent spend this 1.6 mil 100% training bonus? That's right... Learning skills.
From a business standpoint on CCP's end, this is... bad business to new players because this is in essence telling anyone new to EVE that they should sit on their thumbs for their first month.
The argument to this is: "Insta gratification... etc.."
Negative, because new players who are training up frig 1...2...3... etc.. are saving what... 1 day on a 10 day skill?
The main people this will benefit are people who are looking down the barrel at 20+ day skills. Not new players. It will however make the game more appealing to newer players and help retention.
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Abaroth Charmar
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Posted - 2010.09.15 02:39:00 -
[60]
Removing the learning skills would mean CCP ****ing off veterans (2004 player here btw) just to please the n00b whiners and to attract new players.
What sort of company alienates its most loyal, longest serving customers by pandering to the whim of new ones?
Oh wait:
Sky BT Vodafone O2 Talk Talk Direct Line etc etc
Everything is "new customers only" these days.
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Psymn
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Posted - 2010.09.15 03:03:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Covert Kitty
Quote: One thing that I have always been wondering about is, how many of those who stay in empire, stay there because they dont want to risk their implants. And if those where replaced with another learning tier instead, how many again of those would decide to go to deep space?
I basically agree, I've always felt that having to choose between higher risk pvp and fast learning time, or choosing between high grade pirate implants and faster training, was an unfortunate thing to have to choose between. If it was up to me I would ditch that too and just leave implants for skill boosting related stuff. Then again, If it was up to me I would scrap the whole time based training system and instead replace it with a greatly expanded implant system (so you would buy the skill sets, and plug them into your clones, etc) allowing for skills to be economically focused instead, like everything else in the game. But thats just dreaming and I doubt one could ever get a consensus for that kind of a change in eve. To orient back to the OP, I certainly don't feel that the way attribute implants work is nearly as bad of a system as the learning skills are, and they are fundamentally two unrelated topics.
Implant insurance... Problem solved, you can all go home now :)
Remove learning skills but instead of giving everyone an automatic +10, give them +1 each week for the first 10 weeks. This alongside the double training time would solve the learning skill grind but not instantly reward people who want to make a ninja alt or something in two days.
That being said, i dont mind it as it is so much, but i recognise the problems people have with it.
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local 81
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Posted - 2010.09.15 03:13:00 -
[62]
to the OP,. Waaaahhhhahahaa lol omfg really?
Let me tell ya something, I spent my 1.6 mil sp bonus ALL on the learning skills, In fact I had the learning sk to lv 5, and the rest to lv 4... by the time my sp bonus was over. Why are you complaining? It didnt take long, and when the bonus was over, I had higher attributes. thus seemed like I didnt loose a bonus at all. any more fries with that whine?
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Moriel Damodred
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2010.09.15 04:52:00 -
[63]
More fun facts
New players should NEVER train learning skills to 5 at start?
Why?
It takes over a year before it pays off. May as well get them hooked on the game before you try to get them to make a year long investment. Everyone else had a sig and i felt lonly :( |
GeekAlot
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Posted - 2010.09.15 05:15:00 -
[64]
Originally by: uNtOldPAIN How about... just train them.
this.
all you noobs who want learnings gone, are gonna stop playing eve anyway at some point. so go have fun in wow with u tards
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2010.09.15 07:13:00 -
[65]
Originally by: local 81 any more fries with that whine?
You mean cheese dumbass... cheese and wine --
Nothing is worthless, you may have gotten it for free but it still has an inherent value
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Jita Alt666
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Posted - 2010.09.15 07:30:00 -
[66]
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey
Originally by: local 81 any more fries with that whine?
You mean cheese dumbass... cheese and wine
Cheese goes with a good bottle of wine. This wine is not even of a quality of a poor cask - more like a refillable bladder. Drinkers of refillable bladders are the sort of folks who would rather have fries with their wine while they sit on their park benches muttering about the importance of tinfoil hats.
I found this to be an interesting thread until the fanbois started raising points and then when the points were responded to claimed those points had nothing to do with the op. Circular must win arguing.
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Oorestes
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Posted - 2010.09.15 09:15:00 -
[67]
Wait...wait...this is a PvP game?
What's wrong with the learning skills. I loved them. They gave me stat increases and made me feel like I wasn't so far behind the people that had been playing for years. They help me learn other things faster. They are one of the best things about the new player experience in my opinion.
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Lorth
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.09.15 09:59:00 -
[68]
I rarely voice my opinion of these forums any more, but in this case I feel I must.
Every other MMO out ther gives new players a bonus by allowing to level up super quick, be is WOW or everquest or what have you, they all let new player experience shinny new stuff hours after logging in.
In eve thats differnet, and its all because of learning skills. Over coming the time grind to fly a new ship, is hard for a new player, it was hard for me, and I started in 04 when the highest skill point ship you could fly was a BS, and that only took a couple months to be proficient at.
Right now, newbies are have no hope of catching veteran players. While I'm not a newbie, I can certainly remember what it was like, and it worse now with 2 tiers of learning skills apposed to 1.
If you take any other game out there, they let new players advance quick, but not here. Everyone is slowed down to the speed at which they train, which is solely determined by how many levels you have invested in the learning skills.
And the gradual returns theory is long gone. It used to be that lv 5 cruiser of some race got you 5% extra damage, but that's a thing of the past. Lv 5 cruiser, opens up HAC's, recons, logistics, T3's and a whole lot of other things. There is no longer a scale of gradual returns in skill training because all of these ships out class a tech 1 cruiser in every way imaginable, that having the skills to pilot them is essential in this game.
But all this comes with an artificial cost from CCP. Cruiser 5 is about a 20 day skill, with maxed learning skills, not to mention the time to train those silly learning skills in the first place.
Now your left with this poor newbie, who feels like he can't be as good as someone like me, who started 6.5 years ago, and has 67 trillion skill points, and he right. And the sad thing is, not only can he not catch up to me, but he can't even keep up to me, since I have invested more time into learning skills, the he has existed for.
The loss of the diminishing returns that was an integral part of this game, went away with tech 2, and the ultra high skill point investments to fly and fit those ships. We went from a world of thorax's, to a world of deimos's that were in every way shape and form better, and the only way to get into one of those, was by training a high ranking skill to level 5.
But back to my newbie. People starting in a new game want to experience as much cool stuff as possible, as fast as possible. Every other game lets new player do this by making the lower levels exponentially easier to complete then the next one. And they do this because they know that people experiencing a game for the first time, are more likely to to stay with the game if they feel some sort of accomplishment while playing.
Eve used to do this, when the best thing you could fly was a thorax, or a mega, but not any more. And they further handicap people by throwing in the learning skills, which have no other use but to increase your advancement in the game. Heck right now, you could spend you entire trail perioud skilling up nothing but the silly learning skills, and be no further ahead in in game skills, and still no closer to catching a guy like me. Its nothing more then I brick wall thrown up in front of every new player that tries this game, and its not good for player advancement.
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Indimiel
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Posted - 2010.09.15 10:33:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Oorestes What's wrong with the learning skills. I loved them. They gave me stat increases and made me feel like I wasn't so far behind the people that had been playing for years. They help me learn other things faster. They are one of the best things about the new player experience in my opinion.
Your feelings are based on a pretty fragile grasp of maths. In Eve a freshly made character starts off years behind the veterans, and will never catch up. What's worse is that between learning skills and implants a new character (even on the double bonus) is falling further behind on an hourly basis, and it will take most of their bonus time to simply bring them close to the rate that the long-term players are training at. When I asked my brother if he would like to try Eve, I asked him a month in advance and trained his learning skills for him before he started playing. Not sure if he would have stuck with it if he had to put up with the boredom of doing learning skills in his first month of play (even if he would have balanced it out with training some learning, and some useful skills).
I think it's a completely unnecessary system and contrary to every other game, where you spend your first months narrowing the gap between yourself and the people already playing, rather than narrowing the rate at which that gap continues to expand.
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Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
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Posted - 2010.09.15 10:46:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Indimiel In Eve a freshly made character starts off years behind the veterans, and will never catch up. What's worse is that between learning skills and implants a new character (even on the double bonus) is falling further behind on an hourly basis, and it will take most of their bonus time to simply bring them close to the rate that the long-term players are training at.
Whine whine whine. Unlucky. Get over it.
That is the "price" newer players have to pay.
I have paid úúú's over the last 6 years in subs and therefore have every right to be eternally higher skilled than any new player.
The "new player grind" helps weed out the ******s, kids, impatient bastards and WoW players... which imho can only be a good thing.
Possible response: "Waaa, stupid vets thinking they're better than everyone else. Waaa, I'll never have as many SP as them. CCP needs to buff n00bs."
If you're reading this, you've read too far and now you're on my sig. Concentrate on what I said before you got to this bit. Ok? |
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Morpheus Mishima
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.15 11:12:00 -
[71]
I haven't done the math lately with exact numbers but last time I did EVE offered about 23 YEARS of skill training-time. That's with all attributes evenly distributed, maxed learning skills and starting with cybernetics L5. Add yearly respeccing that number would probably go down a bit on a strict training plan.
This is the driving force that new players try to comprehend. Fact: You will never have one character in EVE that can do everything, fly everything and be best at everything. And it is my honest opinion that it should stay that way.
But my point is this: EvE is a deep and strategic game with tons of complexity. Removing learning-skills would certainly give new players an advantage over old characters who would have had to train learning skills to get a decent learning-rate.
From a business standpoint I think CCP is shooting themselves in the proverbial foot with this, both ways. By incorporating learning skills back in the day, and by now removing them again.
Also worth mentioning is that characters created between 2006-2009 where given an absurd amount of starting-SP, compared to characters created when the game was released in 2003-2004 and up to 2005. This has since been removed as we all know, and in its place is an even greater advantage for new players to train the first 1.6m SP at double rate.
This all comes down to one dilemma with two sides demanding to be heard; on the veterans side you'll see players who don't want to see new players catch up with them SP-wise too quickly - and on the new-player side you'll see some lazy people who want to have everything served on a platter for them. Aka. EVE Easy-mode.
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Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
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Posted - 2010.09.15 11:15:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Ultim8Evil I have paid úúú's over the last 6 years in subs and therefore have every right to be eternally higher skilled than any new player.
The "new player grind" helps weed out the ******s, kids, impatient bastards and WoW players... which imho can only be a good thing.
And you always will be, just as I will be. However removing the stupidity of learning skills would give us more targets to grief and kill.
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Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
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Posted - 2010.09.15 11:24:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Morpheus Mishima ...on the new-player side you'll see some lazy people who want to have everything served on a platter for them. Aka. EVE Easy-mode.
QFT
The thing that drew me to EVE in the first place was the complexity and obscene learning curve.
Despite evidence to the contrary on the forums (), the very nature of EVE means that there are very few ******ed emoraging 13 year olds here.
I like it this way. There should be no easy mode.
If you're reading this, you've read too far and now you're on my sig. Concentrate on what I said before you got to this bit. Ok? |
oolk
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:19:00 -
[74]
Edited by: oolk on 15/09/2010 12:21:26 mmm...implants insurance....add modules insurance too (lets all pvp in x-typed ships)that should clean up Jita and mess up the market|market prices a bit!
Main problem is the TIME we spent training those skills.
The whole argument is based around the TIME it takes nOOblets to train them to get access to shiney flyingpixels and advance further into the game?
Well,we all had to do that (sigh,yes,again).
I'd be insulted with just 5 376 000 sps to be redistributed wherever I want really.
We too spent TIME training those...you would need to take account of that TIME wasted.
Indirectly,the cons concerning the skills removal are most probably due to that;how to quantify the TIME wasted so everybody would be satisfied...headache.
They would have to throw up more incentives to get my vote.
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Shwedagon Paya
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:27:00 -
[75]
I have three characters with all-L4/selected L5 learning skills and +4 implants across the board. When the time is right (i.e., when it's most efficient to do so), I'm going to give the relatively inactive character I'm currently "growing" (whom I won't actually be using for a while) a full set of +5 implants.
I am in the "learning skills should be removed from EVE" camp. They're nothing more than an inconvenience and a time sink, for the sole purpose of making another time sink less onerous moving forward. This primarily affects new players and their very first pilot. Most of the time, they can't even afford to buy the advanced skill books when it would be ideal to do so.
There's enough grandfathering in this game as-is. Arguments such as "lol, i went thru it so u shud to" are completely stupid, and there are many examples in real life of such sentiments standing in the way of progress and ensuring that an unfortunate situation remains unfortunate.
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Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:32:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Shwedagon Paya there are many examples in real life of such sentiments standing in the way of progress and ensuring that an unfortunate situation remains unfortunate.
What also remains unfortunate is that RL is RL and this is about internet spaceships.
If you're reading this, you've read too far and now you're on my sig. Concentrate on what I said before you got to this bit. Ok? |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:33:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Ultim8Evil I like it this way. There should be no easy mode.
Apparently you missed how nearly everyone flies the same ships fitted the same way (go lern Drake, it r pwn, k?) They did the same thing with characters. Just used google or asked someone what to do.
And what's sadder is the few who do learn for themselves and experiment get shreiked at for not fitting in.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
My Postman
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:33:00 -
[78]
Why, the hell does this pop up every 2 weeks, there are still threads about this s*** existing, made by wonderful Xenuria.
And as i don¦t care if the OP is (another) xenurias alt i won¦t quote the OP, if someone is interrested in my mind, please look up in my posting history.
Anyway, one new idea popped up on page one, something like adding "superadvanced learning skills" instead of implants (or both, can¦t remember).
Please do so. All i want is that a prereq for "uber-learning skills" is the corresponding andvanced learning skill must be at LEVEL V! When doing so i will add the cheese to the horrendous amount of whine incoming.
Fake edit: Does the comm realize that there is not A SINGLE NOOB POST in a 3 pages thread ranting about learning skills?
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Shwedagon Paya
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:39:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Ultim8Evil
Originally by: Shwedagon Paya there are many examples in real life of such sentiments standing in the way of progress and ensuring that an unfortunate situation remains unfortunate.
What also remains unfortunate is that RL is RL and this is about internet spaceships.
Precisely the same principle applies to EVE. You plainly cannot comprehend the fundaments of this issue if you believe otherwise.
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Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:46:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Ultim8Evil I like it this way. There should be no easy mode.
Apparently you missed how nearly everyone flies the same ships fitted the same way (go lern Drake, it r pwn, k?) They did the same thing with characters. Just used google or asked someone what to do.
And what's sadder is the few who do learn for themselves and experiment get shreiked at for not fitting in.
Popularity =/= omgwtfbbqpwn (RL proof = everything Apple have ever made)
The nature of Ships & Mods means that every ship has a weakness somewhere and the challenge is finding it and adapting your technique to exploit it.
There is nothing wrong with Googling for an optimal skill plan. Hell, EVEMon does that for you anyway.
If you're reading this, you've read too far and now you're on my sig. Concentrate on what I said before you got to this bit. Ok? |
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Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.09.15 12:52:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Ultim8Evil There is nothing wrong with Googling for an optimal skill plan.
Or going to battleclinic to find a fitting.
My only point is that the original character creation method didn't really rely on intelligence in order to make a good character, but an understanding of the game, which new players, who often make new characters, lack. So they either made a 'bad' character, or let google tell them what to do. I think it was wise to change it.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Edith Bunker
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Posted - 2010.09.15 13:02:00 -
[82]
Originally by: TheBlueMonkey Edited by: TheBlueMonkey on 14/09/2010 07:23:31
Originally by: Hakkar'al Gallente Not everyone is a PvPer
Probably shouldn't be playing a pvp game then and before you argue.
If you went to a wow server, when picking the server, would you pick a pvp server if you didn't want to pvp?
edit; oh, as for the op this is the problem. One camp wants the skills gone but everyone gets +10 attributes One camp wants them replaced with implants One camp doesn't care
I think they should just pull them and not boost anything, everyone learns slower and those that have been crying over "having to ocd the skills to 5/5" and go suck an egg.
Its a PVP game by your defintiton only.
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Riaqu
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Posted - 2010.09.15 13:05:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Riaqu on 15/09/2010 13:05:35
Learning skills offer a choice, a trade-off between short-term satisfaction (quicker access to some ships & modules by not training learning skills) and long term satisfaction (faster skill progression by training learning skills). It's not even binary, as everyone can choose their own preferred balance between the two by training some learning skills, instead of all.
I don't understand why people object to this. Isn't choice a good thing, adding greater complexity?
I hope CCP won't go down a path that makes it easier for new players but decreases long-term commitment/satisfaction. It would be a bad business strategy in the long-term.
PS I'm less than a year old, and love being able to make own choice with respect to learning skills.
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Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
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Posted - 2010.09.15 14:17:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Ultim8Evil There is nothing wrong with Googling for an optimal skill plan.
My only point is that the original character creation method didn't really rely on intelligence in order to make a good character, but an understanding of the game, which new players, who often make new characters, lack. So they either made a 'bad' character, or let google tell them what to do. I think it was wise to change it.
And now they have Remaps to fix their mistake.
Which makes your "only point" (your words) rather moot.
Additionally, a new player who uses Google or the forums to aid them in creating a "good" starter character is showing the initiative that a game like EVE will eventually reward.
Rather this than ****ing it up and whining on the forums 6 months down the line when they realise what they've done, then being flamed and trolled for not reading a character creation guide first.
If you're reading this, you've read too far and now you're on my sig. Concentrate on what I said before you got to this bit. Ok? |
Professor Tarantula
Hedion University
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Posted - 2010.09.15 14:41:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Professor Tarantula on 15/09/2010 14:43:01
Originally by: Ultim8Evil And now they have Remaps to fix their mistake.
Which makes your "only point" (your words) rather moot.
Yeah, you really 'got me' there. Was attempting to get back to the sole reason i responded to you in the first place. Which you haven't really done a good job of arguing properly.
Originally by: Ultim8Evil Additionally, a new player who uses Google or the forums to aid them in creating a "good" starter character is showing the initiative that a game like EVE will eventually reward.
So it's not a matter of intelligence, because people will just ask others what to do. Which was my "only point".
I think i'm going to enjoy having you around.
My Warmest Regards. Prof. Tarantula, Esq. |
Riedle
Minmatar Wayne's TV and Appliances
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Posted - 2010.09.15 14:54:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Lorth I rarely voice my opinion of these forums any more, but in this case I feel I must.
Every other MMO out ther gives new players a bonus by allowing to level up super quick, be is WOW or everquest or what have you, they all let new player experience shinny new stuff hours after logging in.
In eve thats differnet, and its all because of learning skills. Over coming the time grind to fly a new ship, is hard for a new player, it was hard for me, and I started in 04 when the highest skill point ship you could fly was a BS, and that only took a couple months to be proficient at.
Right now, newbies are have no hope of catching veteran players. While I'm not a newbie, I can certainly remember what it was like, and it worse now with 2 tiers of learning skills apposed to 1.
If you take any other game out there, they let new players advance quick, but not here. Everyone is slowed down to the speed at which they train, which is solely determined by how many levels you have invested in the learning skills.
And the gradual returns theory is long gone. It used to be that lv 5 cruiser of some race got you 5% extra damage, but that's a thing of the past. Lv 5 cruiser, opens up HAC's, recons, logistics, T3's and a whole lot of other things. There is no longer a scale of gradual returns in skill training because all of these ships out class a tech 1 cruiser in every way imaginable, that having the skills to pilot them is essential in this game.
But all this comes with an artificial cost from CCP. Cruiser 5 is about a 20 day skill, with maxed learning skills, not to mention the time to train those silly learning skills in the first place.
Now your left with this poor newbie, who feels like he can't be as good as someone like me, who started 6.5 years ago, and has 67 trillion skill points, and he right. And the sad thing is, not only can he not catch up to me, but he can't even keep up to me, since I have invested more time into learning skills, the he has existed for.
The loss of the diminishing returns that was an integral part of this game, went away with tech 2, and the ultra high skill point investments to fly and fit those ships. We went from a world of thorax's, to a world of deimos's that were in every way shape and form better, and the only way to get into one of those, was by training a high ranking skill to level 5.
But back to my newbie. People starting in a new game want to experience as much cool stuff as possible, as fast as possible. Every other game lets new player do this by making the lower levels exponentially easier to complete then the next one. And they do this because they know that people experiencing a game for the first time, are more likely to to stay with the game if they feel some sort of accomplishment while playing.
Eve used to do this, when the best thing you could fly was a thorax, or a mega, but not any more. And they further handicap people by throwing in the learning skills, which have no other use but to increase your advancement in the game. Heck right now, you could spend you entire trail perioud skilling up nothing but the silly learning skills, and be no further ahead in in game skills, and still no closer to catching a guy like me. Its nothing more then I brick wall thrown up in front of every new player that tries this game, and its not good for player advancement.
This is exactly it. I want EVE to succeed. Silly learning skills need to go.
click here |
Orange Lagomorph
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Posted - 2010.09.15 15:19:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Riedle This is exactly it. I want EVE to succeed. Silly learning skills need to go.
The other thing that needs to go is the prevalence of six-, eight- and twelve-month SP minimum requirements (that's with high learning skills and implants, focused on PvP skills no less) to join the vast majority of nullsec corporations, pirate corporations, and mercenary outfits. I'm getting tired of people preaching about how "u can pvp in 2-6 weeks!!!" when those very same people aren't willing to mentor any of these new pilots.
...What's that? They can wait three weeks to get into EVE University or join a terrible renter corp that will put them off the game? Brilliant plan, that's a perfect way to retain new players.
****ing hypocrites. |
Goldman Suchs
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Posted - 2010.09.15 15:25:00 -
[88]
Learning skills should stay as they because Eve is all about opportunity cost ie working out what is the best choice while balancing the pros and cons from a huge range of options.
In terms of skills, if you choose to train learning skills, you forgo training every other skill for that period of time so you have to decide whether you are better off doing that or, for example, training trading or mining skills first and making isk, and then later training learning skills.
Someone who does this could always have more money than someone who trains learning skills first. Take away that choice and the game gets a little more dumbed down for the masses.
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.09.15 16:40:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Arkanor on 15/09/2010 16:41:09
Originally by: Ultim8Evil
Originally by: Professor Tarantula
Originally by: Ultim8Evil There is nothing wrong with Googling for an optimal skill plan.
My only point is that the original character creation method didn't really rely on intelligence in order to make a good character, but an understanding of the game, which new players, who often make new characters, lack. So they either made a 'bad' character, or let google tell them what to do. I think it was wise to change it.
And now they have Remaps to fix their mistake.
Remaps aren't to fix mistakes, you have to make smart use of them, here's how:
Void main(){ remap(max mem, max int); for(i<4, i=0, i++){ train mem skill i; train int skill i; train learning i; } buy advanced int skill; buy advanced mem skill;
for(i<4, i=0, i++){ train adv mem skill i; train adv int skill i; } train learning 5; train basic mem 5; train basic int 5; train adv mem 5; train adv int 5; Buy perc skill; Buy will skill; Buy cha skill;
for(i<5, i=0, i++){ train perc skill i; train will skill i; train cha i; } Buy/inject advanced perc skill; Buy/inject advanced will skill; Buy/inject advanced cha skill;
remap(desired attributes); train desired learning here;
start playing game; //FINALLY }
There's no "skill" or decisions to be made, it's an idiotic mechanic. New players in the game aren't just going to KNOW the optimal skill training plan like people just trying to spec alts. Yeah it would make speccing alts faster to just take it all out, but it's far less painless to be grinding learnings if you have another ready character to actually play on.
Still support their removal, don't even care if it's reimbursed, it's stupid and needs to go.
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