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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:40:00 -
[1]
What is it?
A multi-purpose corporation created in order for: - Market Manipulation/ Price fixing of 1 category of items in the market - Controlling the supply of those items with the help of outside forces (bulk traders, consultants, as well as mercenaries/pirates) - Reward investors with PvP missions
Basically, without trying to reveal too much and prevent someone figuring out what I intend to do beforehand, I would like to combine trading, speculation/price fixing and PvP in one company's objectives and thus do something unusual.
How much am I seeking?
There is no ceiling for what I would like to get, as large scale market manipulations require an abundance of capital. However since this is my very first IPO and it is something completely new I am aware of the restraints I need to place on myself. I will post an initial offering of 10 billion isk, invest 5 billion of my own isk into this, and continue with an expansion after 25-50% of the investor money has been repaid via dividends (depending on how long this will take to accomplish).
What are the financials?
There will be 15,000 shares at an initial value of 1 million isk each. 5000 of those shares will be in my possession. The maximum I encourage any investor to invest is 1 billion isk, so as to reduce your risk exposure.
Expected Profit & Loss: Having studied the market of the category of items I want to engage in, the maximum loss before I would disband the corp and return leftover capital to investors would be 30%. I can't give a ceiling for profits as it's not something determinable at the start, but I'd be very disappointed if I didn't manage to return the whole initial investment via dividends within 3 months. Once the investment has been repaid in full I will issue a company vote to decide how much of the profits should be reinvested and how much percentage paid out via dividends. I would like to make this a long term investment and expand into different markets and increase the overall complexity of activities, but in the end a shareholder vote will decide the future. Please note, I will actively vote with my 33% of shares depending on what I think is best.
Why the high risk factor?
Because it has never been done before (at least not publicly), because 15 billion isk is a rather large sum of money, and because things could go wrong.
So why invest?
Because it could just as well pay off rather large sums of money, and because investors can choose whether they would like to get actively involved (via PvP, and get rewarded for it) or sit back and become a passive partner.
Governance
I am happy to let someone audit me, divulge all my alts, etc..., but that will sadly not offer any kind of additional security.
In closing, I am trying to do something new, it's very risky. I can promise you I won't run off with the investment, but if I mess up the company can be expected to make significant losses. Why am I doing it? Auditing was something I wanted to do to pass the time, help M&D gain some stability, and do something different to my usual mission running and PvP. Since audits have been shown to be very inefficient in preventing the big scams, I would like to try something new.
Reservations can be made now and the IPO will commence once at least 7.5 billion has been collected. At this point I will establish the company, collect isk and distribute shares accordingly. If this can not be accomplished within 3 days of posting this (presumably due to criticism/risk aversity) I will not go ahead with this IPO.
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AtheistOfFail
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:50:00 -
[2]
Edited by: AtheistOfFail on 14/09/2010 07:50:04 Since i'm really broke but i have made a promise to get involved into every investment here, i'll take 1 share at whatever initial cost it might be.
PS: Like the business plan.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:53:00 -
[3]
Weren't you giving out free ships in your lotteries ^^?
Shares are 1 mill isk each and 1 share will give you 0.000067% voting rights.
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AtheistOfFail
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.14 07:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ramingo Weren't you giving out free ships in your lotteries ^^?
Shares are 1 mill isk each and 1 share will give you 0.000067% voting rights.
My broke-ness has no relation with the actual free ships. That money is gone the second i announced the lotteries. I'll take 1 share when you get them done and i hope you turn into a trillionare from this
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:00:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 14/09/2010 08:02:28
What happens to your "plan" if the outside forces don't cooperate, if your investors don't accept those "pvp missions" and your pvp targets never undock or are in NPC corps?
Is controlling the supply of the items in question going to involve activities in low-sec or 0.0?
Have you engaged in successful market manipulation (on a somewhat comparable scale) before and do you have the logs to prove it?
You say market manipulation on that scale requires a lot of capital - are you confident the 12.5-15b are sufficient? what is the backup plan if it turns out they are not sufficient?
Are you open to allow for performance audits during the course of this business?
Why the 3 days limit? e.g. What would make this business unprofitable if you had a whole week for your funding?
Why do you think this offering might not launch due to "criticism"? Are you afraid you don't have good answers to the questions which might get asked?
Why do you bother writing up an offering if you yourself sound like you don't believe in it getting filled?
edit: while an "audit" may not eliminate the risk of getting scammed it should reduce the risk of business failure substantially as you would be required to discuss your business plan (in detail) with the auditor.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:15:00 -
[6]
What happens to your "plan" if the outside forces don't cooperate, if your investors don't accept those "pvp missions" and your pvp targets never undock or are in NPC corps?
The PvP missions aren't essential, they merely make it easier and cheaper to do what I do (with the assumption that hiring pvp-able investors for PvP missions are cheaper than mercs/ dedicated pirates). If the targets don't undock it's great and NPC corp is irrelevant to my objective.
Is controlling the supply of the items in question going to involve activities in low-sec or 0.0?
I don't want to divulge that information due to the risk of giving out too much info and creating competitors before I have even begun. Once the activities commenced this won't be a problem however.
Have you engaged in successful market manipulation (on a somewhat comparable scale) before and do you have the logs to prove it?
No. Well yes, but by providing logs I would cut my own flesh as it's something very similar just on a larger scale coupled with the PvP aspects I'm bringing in.
You say market manipulation on that scale requires a lot of capital - are you confident the 12.5-15b are sufficient? what is the backup plan if it turns out they are not sufficient?
12.5 bill (the minimum with which I'd start this) would be sufficient to allow for a temporary, i.e. 2-3 weeks domination of the market, after which things would probably be taken over by richer investors. That's why I will try and control not just the trading but also the supply of items. Expansions are an option, but those would be for different items only. If I can make good profits with the initial items I will use the profits of those items to increase control over that market (depends on how much % investors want paid out as dividends as opposed to reinvested)
Are you open to allow for performance audits during the course of this business?
Yes, all investors with over 100 shares are encouraged to put an alt into my corp which will received junior auditor roles. All transactions will be handled via the corp wallet with which they can have complete oversight of profitability.
Why the 3 days limit? e.g. What would make this business unprofitable if you had a whole week for your funding?
Nothing, it's just that I don't want to turn this into a 100 page discussion with 0 investors. If 3 days aren't enough to find enough investors, I doubt a week or even a month will make much of a difference and I would rather be doing other things then.
Why do you think this offering might not launch due to "criticism"? Are you afraid you don't have good answers to the questions which might get asked?
No, as I've stated in the Business Plan and subsequent Q&A this is merely a concept which plays out well in my mind, but could go wrong as well. I'm not going to try and sugarcoat it - investing is highly speculative and as opposed to regular bonds where the issuer promises to return at least the initial investment, plus interest (given that he does not scam it), I can not guarantee the same. Merely that I will do my best and even then I can not guarantee profits. If I could, it wouldn't exactly be speculative.
Why do you bother writing up an offeringig you yourself sound like you don't believe in it getting filled?
Because it's my first offering, I didn't do rep grinding like most others have done, 7.5 bill isk is a fairly large amount for the average eve player and with the BB scam people are flocking to new IPOs and bonds shouting scam. I am hoping of course that I can do this and perform well, but without enough isk this is a futile plan. And I can not be bothered to rep grind by offering 1 bill isk bonds etc... because I'm not your regular trader. I don't have the willingness to do the 0.01 isk game and I want to try something completely new and perhaps set a precedent people will imitate in style in the future once my methods have become known.
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Sexy Suzie
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:21:00 -
[7]
Who is holding the 11 billion in collateral and what items specifically make up this collateral (so i can judge that it was fairly valued to 11 billion isk total)?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:40:00 -
[8]
Quote:
And I can not be bothered to rep grind by offering 1 bill isk bonds etc... because I'm not your regular trader.
Why do the others start with 1B bonds? "Rep grind" is not the only answer. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:46:00 -
[9]
Sexy Suzie, I never mentioned anything about collateral or even 11 billion.
edit: while an "audit" may not eliminate the risk of getting scammed it should reduce the risk of business failure substantially as you would be required to discuss your business plan (in detail) with the auditor.
Oh I'm more than happy to give VV or Ji a full rundown of things but I don't want any of this to be made public until I've launched and invested all the isk into the market I've chosen.
edit2: Merely a few days after offering your services as an auditor you seem to be very pessimistic rgd that profession in general. Why the sudden change of mind? Did you not do your research in the capabilities/responsibilities of auditors in MD properly before trying to enter that business or is there something else that has changed? What makes us trust you that you did your research properly this time? Should we expect a "market manipulations are highly overrated and next to worthless" thread next week?
It's not a few days. I offered audit services over a month ago and since then have only received a few inquiries from people who weren't happy with the high amount of information I sought to obtain from them, and I conducted 1 complete audit, and 1 personal background check which got me some heavy criticism. I've offered audits to several people who didn't get back to me with the information sought (full API, revealing alts, business plan, etc...) and since it's been over a month and I've only spent a few days of that doing audits, I've decided to try something new. I am still happy to do audits but only if people actively approach me. And no, market manipulations are extremely lucrative, but only for the top players. If you invest too little isk, things can backfire and you take quite a loss as average joe can overbid and undercut you easily.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
And I can not be bothered to rep grind by offering 1 bill isk bonds etc... because I'm not your regular trader.
Why do the others start with 1B bonds? "Rep grind" is not the only answer.
Because they do regular trading, i.e. buy item low then sell them high while trying to estimate how supply and demand will change, or playing the 0.01 isk game actively. What I intend to do is similar to the former in the fact that I buy and sell items, but I will actively try and influence supply myself. This is not something I can do with only 1 billion capital and if I could I wouldn't need to issue a bond to do it. The active element of outside "consultants" is also something that none of the other bonds in recent times have tried to leverage.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ramingo
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
And I can not be bothered to rep grind by offering 1 bill isk bonds etc... because I'm not your regular trader.
Why do the others start with 1B bonds? "Rep grind" is not the only answer.
Because they do regular trading, i.e. buy item low then sell them high while trying to estimate how supply and demand will change, or playing the 0.01 isk game actively. What I intend to do is similar to the former in the fact that I buy and sell items, but I will actively try and influence supply myself. This is not something I can do with only 1 billion capital and if I could I wouldn't need to issue a bond to do it. The active element of outside "consultants" is also something that none of the other bonds in recent times have tried to leverage.
I asked the other perspective auditor 3 basic questions and he botched 2.5 of them.
I asked you 1 basic question, don't botch it, you are damn better to know why people do 1B bonds because if you don't know (as shown above), people won't trust you. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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AtheistOfFail
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ramingo IPO Stuff
Doing a little background check on your thread, forum posts, lofty response to various accusations, effort put into trying to build up an auditor reputation and subsequent failure to do so, I'd consider this the part where you cash in on your reputation.
Even though my rep as third party sucks, I'd say this is very likely a scam.
PS: Yes, i'm making a joke about how you trash-talked my last MD idea.
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Cheque Please
Hot Like Mexico
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
I asked the other perspective auditor 3 basic questions and he botched 2.5 of them.
I asked you 1 basic question, don't botch it, you are damn better to know why people do 1B bonds because if you don't know (as shown above), people won't trust you.
If you ask someone a question with multiple potential answers, don't act surprised if he doesn't give the one you expected.
(and not bother to state what you think the answer is) --- WORMHOLE SERVICE RL Meeting w/ Chribba
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 08:59:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ramingo on 14/09/2010 09:04:31 Well, 1 billion first-offering bonds enable the issuer to show his profitability, skill at trading, and allows for a distinction in scammers to be drawn between those who at least know how to trade, and those who don't know at all, thus in the very least getting rid of those scammers who don't know how to trade.
For myself however that's not going to be possible, but if you want I am more than happy to have a chat with you and explain in detail to you what my actual business plan is, given that you promise not to divulge ANY specific information that could be used by competitors to get a first-mover advantage. Ideally you will then confirm the reasons as to why I have to be secretive about the sensitive aspects of the business plan, and that it's possible to make a profit as described in my initial outline.
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Alacta Lithia
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Posted - 2010.09.14 09:08:00 -
[15]
Would like to reserve 1 bil, depending as to how this thread goes.
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Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
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Posted - 2010.09.14 09:30:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ramingo There will be 15,000 shares at an initial value of 1 million isk each. 5000 of those shares will be in my possession. [...] I will actively vote with my 33% of shares depending on what I think is best.
Obviously that puts two-thirds of the shares in the hands of your investors. The shares would be in-game shares in a holding corporation, rather than your operating corporation?
Originally by: Ramingo The maximum I encourage any investor to invest is 1 billion isk, so as to reduce your risk exposure.
From what you say, you clearly think that the risk justifies investing 5 billion ISK yourself. Why would you discourage other investors from doing the same?
Originally by: Ramingo I will post an initial offering of 10 billion isk, invest 5 billion of my own isk into this, and continue with an expansion after 25-50% of the investor money has been repaid via dividends (depending on how long this will take to accomplish).
Indulging in a moment of skepticism: So the key criterion for an expansion would be met if you simply used the 5 billion you're investing to pay out dividends to your investors, without doing any of the business operations to which you allude. You say, "I am happy to let someone audit me": will you commit now to a follow-up audit or even a simpler performance-verification by an auditor in advance of any expansion? á á
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 09:40:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Ramingo on 14/09/2010 09:41:54
Originally by: Thoraemond
Originally by: Ramingo There will be 15,000 shares at an initial value of 1 million isk each. 5000 of those shares will be in my possession. [...] I will actively vote with my 33% of shares depending on what I think is best.
Obviously that puts two-thirds of the shares in the hands of your investors. The shares would be in-game shares in a holding corporation, rather than your operating corporation?
They would be in a holding corporation, so that I have control over the business and it cannot be taken over by 1 person using multiple alts to sneak in a majority, take over CEO and empty wallet. However, any investor that wishes can put a char into the actual operating corporation with junior auditor roles for oversight, but NO shares will be issued in that corporation other than to myself.
Originally by: Ramingo The maximum I encourage any investor to invest is 1 billion isk, so as to reduce your risk exposure.
From what you say, you clearly think that the risk justifies investing 5 billion ISK yourself. Why would you discourage other investors from doing the same?
Key word being "encourage". If somebody feels like they don't mind investing more than 1 billion isk and are comfortable with facing a higher risk exposure then that's up to them. I myself will invest 5 billion isk because I have information regular investors don't, i.e. know all the sensitive stuff that I can't make public, thus I am facing less risk than a regular investor and can also afford to invest more. 5 billion however is the maximum that I am personally comfortable investing with at any time as I expect no more than 1-1.5 billion losses, i.e. max 30% of investments as stated before if everything goes badly, at which point I'd liquidate the corporation anyway and return remainder of the investments.
Originally by: Ramingo I will post an initial offering of 10 billion isk, invest 5 billion of my own isk into this, and continue with an expansion after 25-50% of the investor money has been repaid via dividends (depending on how long this will take to accomplish).
Indulging in a moment of skepticism: So the key criterion for an expansion would be met if you simply used the 5 billion you're investing to pay out dividends to your investors, without doing any of the business operations to which you allude. You say, "I am happy to let someone audit me": will you commit now to a follow-up audit or even a simpler performance-verification by an auditor in advance of any expansion?
The fact that any investor can have access to logs showing if I made profits, or if I used my own isk to fund dividends in a giant ponzi scheme scam, will prevent this from happening. I am happy to let someone audit me, but the investors themselves can do so at any time as they will have access to the important info themselves just by looking at the wallet journal. Thus every investor is potentially an auditor and can do their own performance-verification and there is no need for an auditor, other than to show what my alts are.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.14 09:42:00 -
[18]
Quote:
If you ask someone a question with multiple potential answers, don't act surprised if he doesn't give the one you expected.
In the case of the other guy, 2 of 3 questions were specific, the last was not so specific and it's why I accounted it as "0.5" correct. In the case of Ramingo, it's an ongoing process to have him get known better, since he is kinda running faster than MD does generally accept as collectivity. Something you are also doing BTW.
If he's ready for the challenges (I told him about it wouldn't be a walk in the park and he accepted it) then he won't have issues at replying these things, in fact he did.
Now he has to internalize (sp?) this stuff he replied and to basically feel the dance which every market including MD is. Tempo is important.
Also I beg you and everyone to pardon me if I am looking like a know-it-all or "rule maker" or "troll" or "on high horse" as my real intention is just to try bring in my lived previous experience (whatever small or even wrong it could be) as database for the new guys to take advantage of.
Quote:
I am more than happy to have a chat with you and explain in detail to you what my actual business plan is, given that you promise not to divulge ANY specific information that could be used by competitors to get a first-mover advantage.
I thank you for your vote of confidence but ATM I have my hands (and more) well full with RL work so I can't do anything but try and finish my current queue.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.14 09:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ramingo Have you engaged in successful market manipulation (on a somewhat comparable scale) before and do you have the logs to prove it?
No. Well yes, but by providing logs I would cut my own flesh as it's something very similar just on a larger scale coupled with the PvP aspects I'm bringing in.
I had asked this question with rgds to the audit, wouldn't expect you to release this sort of information in public.
Based on the information you have released so far it seems most likely that you intend to manipulate the supply/price of certain FW or (pirate) faction items/implants.
Pirate faction items would imho make more sense from a business perspective (due to the logistics difficulties in 0.0 and people's "want cash now"-attitude it's easier to control supply with WTB contracts) but given your background and the fact that you won't get your investors to do mercenary work in deep 0.0 and shouldn't expect them to be ready to do suicide ganking on high-sec transports, FW items seem like the more plausible choice.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 10:09:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Ramingo on 14/09/2010 10:14:16
Originally by: Mme Pinkerton
Originally by: Ramingo Have you engaged in successful market manipulation (on a somewhat comparable scale) before and do you have the logs to prove it?
No. Well yes, but by providing logs I would cut my own flesh as it's something very similar just on a larger scale coupled with the PvP aspects I'm bringing in.
I had asked this question with rgds to the audit, wouldn't expect you to release this sort of information in public.
Based on the information you have released so far it seems most likely that you intend to manipulate the supply/price of certain FW or (pirate) faction items/implants.
Pirate faction items would imho make more sense from a business perspective (due to the logistics difficulties in 0.0 and people's "want cash now"-attitude it's easier to control supply with WTB contracts) but given your background and the fact that you won't get your investors to do mercenary work in deep 0.0 and shouldn't expect them to be ready to do suicide ganking on high-sec transports, FW items seem like the more plausible choice.
While I appreciate you trying to do investigative work, you're in essence asking me what my core business plan will be based on and as such I can neither confirm (that could backfire) nor deny (multiple denials would narrow down the choice of markets too) any guesses. Doing so would be counter-productive.
VV: I have no problem answering questions and I've answered every non-troll question in M&D so far directly and honestly, both in my audit thread and in this and I will continue to do so. As you've correctly stated I don't mind the challenge and I welcome any genuine/intelligent question as it gives me a chance to dispel investor fears. I do however hope that this thread won't end up with 5 pages of questions/answers but no investors because of the magnitude of the thread. That's why I set the 3 day limit on the IPO, since 10 billion isn't hard to fill and if it hasn't been done so after 3 days then there's most likely something fundamentally wrong with the plan that's discouraging investors, or the general M&D environment isn't up for the investment (post-BB, that wouldn't be a big surprise).
In the end, my incentive to do well is that I'm getting 33% of all profits by having invested 33% myself. Anybody that invests gets their own opportunity for performance evaluation/controls.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.14 10:19:00 -
[21]
Please allow me to intrude once more. Many factors too long to list here indicate me that you have to expect fluent discussions both about you and this investment. As such, if I had been you, I'd have started this as discussion thread and only later I'd have posted the proper "dry" investment prospectus thread. This is what's usually done here to cover your case, which is hardly unique or new. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 10:26:00 -
[22]
Well I'd also say I'm pretty active when it comes to responses so any questions should be covered well in time to exhaust the subject within 2-3 days. Basically, asks your questions now/tomorrow, put in your reservations anytime between now and 3 days from now, and all will be well. There's really only so much that can be asked/answered about the IPO. Otherwise one could argue that an IPO should never be opened as there could always be more potential questions. Thus I think the 3 days covers it nicely - gives people time to get questions off their mind, gives me time to answer them, and is long enough to gather the funds to buy the shares 3 days from now. Or do it like Alacta.
Also VV, in case you haven't noticed, in spite of you having been very critical of me in the audit thread, I appreciate what you're doing and try to be as forthcoming as possible, so no need to apologise ;)
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Varcynal Risk
Gallente The Craniac Blazing Angels Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.14 10:39:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Varcynal Risk on 14/09/2010 10:42:55 I would like to reserve 10 Shares, my first foray into MD!
(I'm guessing that's not a lot) |
Darth Toaster
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Posted - 2010.09.14 11:08:00 -
[24]
Reserve 10 shares for me please
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 11:57:00 -
[25]
10 shares are fine, after all I accepted AoF's 1 million reservation too. In hindsight I should have added a minimum 100 mill investment to keep the list of investors manageable, but I'm not going to disallow anyone from investing just because they don't have hundreds of millions to throw around. Seems like in eve the progression of isk is exponential, i.e. the first few weeks/months you slave around to earn a few mill, and after a while you suddenly start earning billions.
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Rasz Lin
Caldari Racketeers
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Posted - 2010.09.14 12:09:00 -
[26]
Cant wait till you start manipulating so I can use it for free to make even moar isk. Unless its a scam fcourse :)
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 12:15:00 -
[27]
I added the clause that only investors with over 500 shares (500 mill isk) get the option to place alts with junior accountant roles into the operating corp. This is to dissuade others from gaining any potential information and use it to their own advantage at least for the initial stages of the IPO. If you're 1 of the 3 who have invested less than 500 mill so far and this offends you/makes you want to undo the reservation then please do so now.
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Zolace Prudence
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Posted - 2010.09.14 15:46:00 -
[28]
I'd like to reserve 500 shares, for 500m please.
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kiall Toz
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Posted - 2010.09.14 15:57:00 -
[29]
Quote: The maximum I encourage any investor to invest is 1 billion isk
If you have no objections I would like to invest 1.5 billion, slightly over your recommended but whats life without a little risk(but that may be the booze talking) and I've had a good week. If you would rather investors keep to the 1 billion limit then I'll be happy to lower my investment to the 1 billion.
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Banque
Lonely Pear Inc.
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Posted - 2010.09.14 16:04:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Banque on 14/09/2010 16:05:29 100 shares please
Edit: forgot to write something the first time
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 17:09:00 -
[31]
Originally by: kiall Toz
Quote: The maximum I encourage any investor to invest is 1 billion isk
If you have no objections I would like to invest 1.5 billion, slightly over your recommended but whats life without a little risk(but that may be the booze talking) and I've had a good week. If you would rather investors keep to the 1 billion limit then I'll be happy to lower my investment to the 1 billion.
I have no objections of course ;) If you sober up tomorrow and decide you're suddenly not as full of adrenaline, we can still reduce it to a bill.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2010.09.14 17:25:00 -
[32]
Please, please, pleeeeeeeease let it be ice!
I need the lulz.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.14 17:30:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Claire Voyant Please, please, pleeeeeeeease let it be ice!
I need the lulz.
I would normally say:
"While I appreciate you trying to do investigative work, you're in essence asking me what my core business plan will be based on and as such I can neither confirm (that could backfire) nor deny (multiple denials would narrow down the choice of markets too) any guesses. Doing so would be counter-productive."
But in this case I just gotta say.....damn...how'd you guess? I'll give you 50 mill if you don't tell anyone about it.
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Brainiac Bob
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Posted - 2010.09.14 17:55:00 -
[34]
Put me down for a 100 shares
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0scarWilde
|
Posted - 2010.09.14 19:30:00 -
[35]
sounds good, put me down for 150 shares. |
Shivercoin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2010.09.14 19:46:00 -
[36]
Reserving 1000 shares
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.14 22:36:00 -
[37]
15 minutes as an auditor then straight to a 15B ISK IPO.
You are also not very keen about an audit (not that I think it helps).
Too much, too soon
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Lucyna
Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 00:36:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Lucyna on 15/09/2010 00:37:26
Originally by: cosmoray 15 minutes as an auditor then straight to a 15B ISK IPO.
You are also not very keen about an audit (not that I think it helps).
Too much, too soon
It may yet be a scam, and it's probably not the safest investment to come around for awhile, but he is letting people audit him, no?
Edit: and when I say not the safest, I'm only looking at the business plan and not the person. He could be a scammer. _________ Eve - for when I'm not playing minecraft ;) |
Konoch
Caldari Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 01:32:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lucyna Edited by: Lucyna on 15/09/2010 00:37:26
Originally by: cosmoray 15 minutes as an auditor then straight to a 15B ISK IPO.
You are also not very keen about an audit (not that I think it helps).
Too much, too soon
It may yet be a scam, and it's probably not the safest investment to come around for awhile, but he is letting people audit him, no?
Edit: and when I say not the safest, I'm only looking at the business plan and not the person. He could be a scammer.
Not could be. Is. I have no respect left for IPO's Bond's or anything of the like. I wont even invest in my corp's bonds any more. I've lost all faith in this forum and in the people that run things like this. My advice? Invest in yourself and **** everything else. Especially all the crap on this forum.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 02:39:00 -
[40]
Originally by: cosmoray 15 minutes as an auditor then straight to a 15B ISK IPO.
You are also not very keen about an audit (not that I think it helps).
Too much, too soon
Actually, more like 2 months as auditor, not that it has anything to do with the IPO, and it's straight to 10B, not 15B, as 5B is my own if you had bothered to read the IPO.
And Lucyna, I'm more than happy for anybody to audit me but knowing the limitations of an audit and given the type of IPO it wouldn't add much at all in my case. That and I'll be more or less constantly monitored. And yeah I can still run off with the isk at any point in time, but I've always had the attitude that having trust > short term infusion of cash. I'd much rather be Chribba than Bad Bobby, and even though there's no sure way for you to guarantee that, I think my previous track record (non-MD related) would show that to anyone interested enough to do some research rather than blindly calling me a scammer.
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Taigatoo
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 03:08:00 -
[41]
All right, I'll bite.
500 shares for 500 Million ISK, please.
-T.
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imonthemother
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 05:02:00 -
[42]
Please reserve 500 shares for 500 mil. Send me an evmail with the particulars to complete the transaction as this is the alt that will join your corp.
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Lucyna
Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 05:37:00 -
[43]
Ramingo audited me.
That being said, he hasn't been around MD for long at all. I think it's too much to be comfortable. It'd be minimal isk/time dedicated - good time to scam if he was a rational being. The future is uncertain, and there is a lot of work to put in to get more isk (a bigger offering) down the road.
Basically, to minimize risk, you might want to avoid this one.
Sorry, he has been completely professional with me. His audit wasn't 100% thorough but did a complete exam of my profitability. But if it were me, having not put in any time doing any kind of activity that comes with a post-investment scrutinizing and getting 15B in my possession at once, I'd say it's the time to make off with what I had.
Just putting me in his shoes. _________ Eve - for when I'm not playing minecraft ;) |
Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 06:18:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ramingo on 15/09/2010 06:20:55 Edited by: Ramingo on 15/09/2010 06:19:56
Originally by: Lucyna Ramingo audited me.
That being said, he hasn't been around MD for long at all. I think it's too much to be comfortable. It'd be minimal isk/time dedicated - good time to scam if he was a rational being. The future is uncertain, and there is a lot of work to put in to get more isk (a bigger offering) down the road.
Basically, to minimize risk, you might want to avoid this one.
Sorry, he has been completely professional with me. His audit wasn't 100% thorough but did a complete exam of my profitability. But if it were me, having not put in any time doing any kind of activity that comes with a post-investment scrutinizing and getting 15B in my possession at once, I'd say it's the time to make off with what I had.
Just putting me in his shoes.
While I appreciate the comments about my audit you have to bear in mind 2 things regarding that; I audited you AFTER you did your IPO meaning you already had the isk from investors and that's why I focused mostly on your trading performance.
Also, for the second (or third?) time, it's 10B not 15B. 5B of the 15B total is mine. And lastly, you can't put yourself in my shoes because you're new to EvE whereas I've been playing a couple of years, and earn more isk in an hour of carebearing than you do all week. Thus 10B might seem a lot to you, but for me it's 3-4 week's worth of semi-casual missioning. I am not doing this just for the isk (sure, more isk is always nice) but mostly because I had a little bit of an 'inspiration' and felt like trying something new, which I don't want to do entirely with my own isk however. In addition, the extra involvement of multiple investors (if they choose to, as so far 1 has already approached me wanting to get more involved, who by the way prematurely sent me 1 bill isk and I sent it back within seconds) can only help me make this venture more successful. I have warned investors about the risks not just of my scamming (which I could swear and plead and it wouldn't make a difference) but also of the actual market manipulation which can backfire.
If this is successful (i.e. over 20% profits per month) then I'll expand, as mentioned in the initial post. I'd be stupid not to keep going with a successful thing. If it fails, (i.e. hit 30% losses) I'll end the venture, return remainder of the investment, and most likely won't do another offering, or in the very least do something different but with less total investment and less risky.
Regarding scam, anybody can feel free to check my eveboard skills right now for Ramingo, Tatal Zmeu and Diana Devil and see that my skill training is for the long haul, i.e. I've built those characters up gradually and do not intend to randomly sell them off to start all over again. The pass is "mop". Unlike most of the IPO/Bond owners, I am not doing this with a trading alt, I am doing this with the names of my PvPers and their history of KB stats, reputation at PvP, etc... something that has a value of its own. Tatal was at y-2 and has 3 titan KMs (1 of them got gobbled up by server however) and Ramingo created/led the Caldari Defense Initiative until I couldn't be bothered and relocated my corp.
So like I said, sorry Lucyna, but you can't put yourself into my shoes because you don't know how I think, how much value I attach to my characters/reputation, what my relative value of ISK is, and many other things.
One further factor is that I play from Iran, which means my IP address is rather unique (not sure how many play EvE from Iran but I doubt it's more than a handful). This means even if I sold/biomassed all my chars, bought new ones then I'd still be easily traceable by forum/KB wizards of whatever corp/alliance I'm in, thus adding far more of a restraining factor and making it far more difficult for me to scam on here than the average issuer.
P.S.: It's nice to know that you'd run off as soon as you got 10B from investors ;)
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Lucyna
Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.09.15 06:30:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Ramingo
Wall of text.
Sad to say but that was the exact response I was expecting.
Of course, like I've said with other ventures and offerings of people not known around MD, I am vastly interested in seeing more ventures succeed than fail. However, if they are destined to fail, I'd rather see them not take off at all.
It's too bad you've so quickly turned to mudslinging. I was trying to state opinions as opinions, quite clearly.
Unfortunately, you whipped out your epeen and things got nasty. Great, you make more care-bearing in a day than I do in a month. Okay, then fund your own bond? Why even take that holier than thou attitude. It certainly doesn't really help your case.
Being in Iran doesn't protect your investors from you running away with your money. Nor does having a nice set of skills. In fact, nothing can protect them from you after you have their money. I understand that you want it to look better. To me, it seemed like you were getting plenty of isk before I chimed in and it seems like you would have/will after.
And of course, you take my quote out of context. If I were in your shoes, and hadn't put the time (that I already have) in within MD (though I am a small fry, I'd advise readers to note this well), then the return on time invested is amazing if you were to walk with the funds.
If you want to turn my post into some sort of personal attack, god help you get your required funds. This is a really good way to not meet the investment goal you set out to get.
Best of luck. _________ Eve - for when I'm not playing minecraft ;) |
Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 06:36:00 -
[46]
Well what you basically said was that if you were me, you'd run off with the isk. I figured that warranted a response as to how you and I differ fundamentally in the way we play the game.
In case you didn't notice others before have posted about how this might be a scam and I didn't go into a personal attack, but none of them assumed they knew what my morals were.
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Michela
Bosun Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.09.15 07:26:00 -
[47]
I've lurked for a while on a few of your threads. Let's be serious here ... we have no idea if you're even playing from Iran. Maybe you have a proxy there. Or, maybe you are there. But, when you sell these characters, you'll get a proxy elsewhere.
I have a little less than zero MD rep (as I've chosen not to grind it). But, on this technical topic, I can easily state that your claims are utterly worthless. Spoofing your IP for the purposes of logging into this board? Trivial to do.
And a little advice: stop with the walls of text. They're filled with excuse after excuse. To us adults, it gives the impression that you take no responsibility for what has happened or will happen. Try to be concise. |
Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 07:45:00 -
[48]
This is my second M&D thread in its entirety.
Wall of text? Next time I'll cut down and wait for some other random to accuse me of evading questions/not giving proper answers. I choose to be open about my answers and I have nothing to hide behind. I added the Iran IP address in retrospect well after my initial IPO post because it just came to my mind randomly. There are plenty people in game that can confirm that I play from Iran, either because they have me on Facebook or because they have been kept up to date well in advance of this (I moved back to Iran over 3 months ago and all of my former 1POD corpmates know this).
Irrespective of what anybody wants to accuse me of, no question nor any answer is going to change anything about the fact that mine as well as any other M&D offering is subject to the same principle - scam or no scam, and there's nothing anyone can do to guarantee absolute trust whatsoever. I've answered all serious inquiries regarding operating procedures in-depth, and I've tried to answer accusations of scam as best as I can but there's only so much I can do with regards to the latter.
In the end, I haven't scammed yet and I don't intend to do so. I've always been anti-scamming and my former corpmates can all confirm this as that was the only rule I've promoted/enforced in my corp as a direct consequence of having been scammed twice as a newb, once by goonswarm recruiting scam and once by a loan contract scam. It is also a major reason why I wanted to become an auditor. If you think my answers are too detailed, the door is that way. Nobody is forcing you to read about this IPO or asking you to invest. I'd assume a rational investor would be happy to have their issuers write detailed responses to questions and accusations and it gives more room for errors/signals of potential scam on behalf of the issuer.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.09.15 08:09:00 -
[49]
This definitely seems like too much too soon to me.
At the moment, the isk/effort ratio is very good for a scam. With some very light posting in MD and no business history, you are now asking for 10bil in public funds. At a bare minimum you need to identify this business opportunity to someone who can report back and confirm that it exists as well as say a bit more about the potential risks. Unconventional business plans have also historically had a considerably higher proportion of scams than conventional business plans. In addition, you need an audit to cover the basic security screening information.
Basically, as it stands, there is nothing to differentiate this offer, so far as I can see, from a low effort, high target value scam. Covering the points above would mitigate the low effort somewhat by providing a slightly higher entry barrier. But it still looks like too much for a more or less complete newcomer. Can you suggest any further ways for a potential investor such as myself to distinguish your offer from a scam?
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 08:18:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Ramingo on 15/09/2010 08:22:00
Originally by: RAW23 This definitely seems like too much too soon to me.
At the moment, the isk/effort ratio is very good for a scam. With some very light posting in MD and no business history, you are now asking for 10bil in public funds. At a bare minimum you need to identify this business opportunity to someone who can report back and confirm that it exists as well as say a bit more about the potential risks. Unconventional business plans have also historically had a considerably higher proportion of scams than conventional business plans. In addition, you need an audit to cover the basic security screening information.
Basically, as it stands, there is nothing to differentiate this offer, so far as I can see, from a low effort, high target value scam. Covering the points above would mitigate the low effort somewhat by providing a slightly higher entry barrier. But it still looks like too much for a more or less complete newcomer. Can you suggest any further ways for a potential investor such as myself to distinguish your offer from a scam?
I agree that the isk/effort ration purely based on M&D history is very good. I offered to disclose all specifics of the business plan to VV, since he was actively following the thread, but sadly he's too busy to do it. I don't really want to offer the same gesture to anybody else however as 10-15 bill isn't much for most of the M&D regulars here who would be potential targets for disclosure and they could end up pre-purchasing the market I intend to manipulate and cause substantial losses or even shut down the operation before it starts. I also stated, in spite of my reservations as to the effectiveness, that I am more than happy for a pre-launch audit to be conducted, as well as continued monitoring throughout the venture by the investors who have invested 500 mill or more.
I've tried to make as many suggestions as I could think of, some were generally accepted and others were shot down. Short of bringing various meta-game elements into it (and I most certainly will not include aspects of my real life for a 10 bill IPO) I don't have any more ideas. If you or anyone else has them I think I've shown I'm more than willing to do whatever I can to help reduce fears of a scam.
P.S.: I will however not launch smaller bonds in the 1-5 bill isk range to do station trading - that is no fun/boring as hell, I don't have any experience at that and it wouldn't show my skill at my intended style of market manipulation either. I will see if the last 2.5 bill of the minimum reservations get filled by tomorrow and if it does I'll go ahead, if it doesn't then I'll cancel this venture, as stated in the IPO, and this was nothing more than a waste of time and people can try invest their isk elsewhere in a more traditional way.
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Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
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Posted - 2010.09.15 08:30:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Quote:
And I can not be bothered to rep grind by offering 1 bill isk bonds etc... because I'm not your regular trader.
Why do the others start with 1B bonds? "Rep grind" is not the only answer.
Personally for me I figured I could confidently handle that amount, as it gave me some kind of "loss margin protection". A lot more than that and I would have been "top heavy" on investor money, which is, I guess how most *real* investments work at least. Corporations or ventures rarely start with the majority of the money being the initiator's.
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Shivercoin
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 09:07:00 -
[52]
I won't get into the discrepancies between offers brought by some and offers brought by others. I recognize the value of creating artificial barriers to entry for a new comer who may also potentially be a scammer for all you know.
I don't believe in having to 'grind rep' with MD in order to be any more trustworthy or a viable investment prospect than someone fresh from the anonymous crowd.
For instance I like RAW and have agreed with him on recent threads of his. Especially the ones regarding the need to view all offers as potential scams and hold old faces to the same standards as new.
I would trust him though only as much as the next person and my person judgement on the intentions/moods/motivations/ect. that I could see reading through his offer/words.
From what I've seen regarding Ramingo's intentions in this offer up to this point. In my judgement I can say confidently he isn't scamming. This might change, he could always change his mind. He could also just simply lose your money as he admits is a possibility.
That's my opinion, worth as much as the next person to whoever reads this. I advise you form your opinions based on this offer however you want with an unbiased perspective. Like you should when sizing you should with any offer.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 09:15:00 -
[53]
lol Scott, nicely presented your viewpoint there too :P
Basically, I offered VV, someone I trust, to tell him the exact details but he responded he didn't have enough time. Anybody else I don't really trust not to use the information to harm the IPO. Either way though I DID offer to explain everything in detail to a trusted third party who would also understand the complexity of it. If I posted the specific details of my plan on the IPO then someone with a better rep/more isk could simply use my idea and launch their own IPO or do it themselves. The other unfavourable outcome would be that they heavily purchase the markets I want to manipulate, then sell when prices are high and thus reduce my profits or even cause me losses. That's why I am forced to be secretive about certain details. I also want to claim credit for being the first one to do it. After I've done it, hopefully successfully, I'm sure others will copy my style of IPO. Some will be scams, others will be successes and yet others will fail and lose isk. That's the way it goes, but in the meantime I stand by my IPO and my plan. It might not be the best but it's something new/untried and I would love to be the first one to do it in this shape and form.
And honestly, if you don't want to invest that's fine, I'm only 2.5 bill or so short with 1 more day to go to start procedures. If any existing investors want to pull out then please do so now rather than at the time of launching as I don't want to start things and then find we're suddenly short of our goal. If this doesn't work out it'll be a pity but I'll live to see another day, and at least I won't have lost anybody's ISK either. Although I do encourage more investors in the lower range to fill the remainder, both for purposes of oversight (auditor roles in operating corp) and to reduce individual impact in case of loss or scam. Just consider it as a t2 pvp ship loss or whatever, as 1 of my former corpmates said before investing 150 mill in this IPO.
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Danari
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 09:49:00 -
[54]
500mil for me please. Rationale: It's far below 1% of my NAV. It represents 25% of the gains of my previous investment. I'm intrigued enough to park an alt in the corp as a junior auditor to observe an attempt at something different. And there's pvp!!
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Execer
Apex Consortium DEM0N HUNTERS
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Posted - 2010.09.15 11:14:00 -
[55]
I would like to reserve 250 shares please.
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stewieni
Instant Annihilation Everto Rex Regis
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Posted - 2010.09.15 11:25:00 -
[56]
put me dwn for 50 shares.
my first
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CF ProctoR
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.09.15 11:49:00 -
[57]
As an old friend and a loyal partner in what ever you do i wanna invest theese 500 million isk in your project. I hope this get you further on, your journey into the big buisness world ! :)
CF ProctoR
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.15 11:58:00 -
[58]
Originally by: CF ProctoR As an old friend and a loyal partner in what ever you do i wanna invest theese 500 million isk in your project. I hope this get you further on, your journey into the big buisness world ! :)
CF ProctoR
damn, how am I going to scam now that both you and g1ga invested?? *grumbles* guess I'm forced to give this a real try >:|
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Trebor Whettam
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 14:36:00 -
[59]
Have you tried price fixing a smaller category to get some experience with less risk?
In my limited experience, taking advantage of someone else's manipulations is much more profitable than doing them yourself. I'd be hesitant to invest in something like this even without the risk of scam.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.15 14:38:00 -
[60]
Nope, not yet, but I also intend to mix it up a bit by bringing in outside forces.
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Saidin Thor
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Posted - 2010.09.15 15:24:00 -
[61]
Please put me down for 50 shares.
Note: I'm moving back to college in the next 2 days, so I might be a little hard to reach, especially Friday (driving all day) but please don't take that as "I've pulled out/ignoring you/whatever".
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Lord Beckford
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 16:19:00 -
[62]
i like the way you present and feel like you've answered the questions fired at you really well. this is probly a risky IPO but it seems like you really wana make it work. however i have a few questions before i stake my investment. if the questions have been covered before i apologise i probly missed them.
How often will you pay dividends? what is the time frame for when you will pay back the entire investments?
if you start to lose profit and end up having to pullout at 30% loss how much of that will come out of your 5bil? i ask this because in an earlier post when you discussed pulling out your figures didnt add up or you only equated for investments loss of 30%. if this is so then whether you put 5 bil or not investors are 100% the fall guy for your IPO?
although we dont know what exactly your plan is why have you limited yourself to 10bil investment? obviously you need more then 10 bil because you are putting 5bil yourself. why not keep the IPO open to investment while you are operating and paying dividends for once you pay your first dividend im sure others will want a piece. also once you release your IPO properly and people then start knowing what you are doing you have stated yourself you are going to have competitors wouldnt it be prudent to have spare liquid cash to compete with such?
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Lucyna
Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 16:52:00 -
[63]
Originally by: RAW23 This definitely seems like too much too soon to me.
At the moment, the isk/effort ratio is very good for a scam. With some very light posting in MD and no business history, you are now asking for 10bil in public funds. At a bare minimum you need to identify this business opportunity to someone who can report back and confirm that it exists as well as say a bit more about the potential risks. Unconventional business plans have also historically had a considerably higher proportion of scams than conventional business plans. In addition, you need an audit to cover the basic security screening information.
Basically, as it stands, there is nothing to differentiate this offer, so far as I can see, from a low effort, high target value scam. Covering the points above would mitigate the low effort somewhat by providing a slightly higher entry barrier. But it still looks like too much for a more or less complete newcomer. Can you suggest any further ways for a potential investor such as myself to distinguish your offer from a scam?
This is all I was really trying to get at in my post. At this point, you've had no ventures in MD to prove profitability. Beyond that, you've put in maybe 10-20 hours into MD with posting and audits.
Then you go straight for 10B isk of public funding. That's 1B-500M isk/hr of effort that you've already put in (sunk cost).
Basically, I just want to see you succeed. Getting this much money presents incentives for you to not put in the effort to run a legitimate investment. If you want to participate in manipulation, why not cut the funding in half and take a shot at a different market? That way, it'd be less worth it for you to scam and give you more incentive to complete that venture successfully.
Of course, I've been known to be conservative in my approach to investments. If your "heart is true" as they say, (actually I'm being sincere here) good luck with the fund. _________ Eve - for when I'm not playing minecraft ;) |
Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.15 19:32:00 -
[64]
I just got back from football and I'm knackered. Good questions but I'll have to answer them tomorrow morning.
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Algalon
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 22:15:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lucyna
Originally by: RAW23 This definitely seems like too much too soon to me.
At the moment, the isk/effort ratio is very good for a scam. With some very light posting in MD and no business history, you are now asking for 10bil in public funds. At a bare minimum you need to identify this business opportunity to someone who can report back and confirm that it exists as well as say a bit more about the potential risks. Unconventional business plans have also historically had a considerably higher proportion of scams than conventional business plans. In addition, you need an audit to cover the basic security screening information.
Basically, as it stands, there is nothing to differentiate this offer, so far as I can see, from a low effort, high target value scam. Covering the points above would mitigate the low effort somewhat by providing a slightly higher entry barrier. But it still looks like too much for a more or less complete newcomer. Can you suggest any further ways for a potential investor such as myself to distinguish your offer from a scam?
This is all I was really trying to get at in my post. At this point, you've had no ventures in MD to prove profitability. Beyond that, you've put in maybe 10-20 hours into MD with posting and audits.
Then you go straight for 10B isk of public funding. That's 1B-500M isk/hr of effort that you've already put in (sunk cost).
Basically, I just want to see you succeed. Getting this much money presents incentives for you to not put in the effort to run a legitimate investment. If you want to participate in manipulation, why not cut the funding in half and take a shot at a different market? That way, it'd be less worth it for you to scam and give you more incentive to complete that venture successfully.
Of course, I've been known to be conservative in my approach to investments. If your "heart is true" as they say, (actually I'm being sincere here) good luck with the fund.
This to me doesn't make any sense. At all. If someone wants to scam, they will. It doesn't matter how many or how few hours he's put into his MD reputation, because at the end of the day if his goal is a really fast payday for as little work as possible, then he'll scam. If not, than that person just won't scam. And if anything, the longer a person slaves away at building a reputation for themselves might just give them MORE incentive to scam because of all the "tedious hard work and effort they've put in with little to no reward to show for it" and when they suddenly have all this cold hard isk sitting in front of them it's a lot easier to justify stealing it (in their minds).
A reputation is good for two things. Showing that the person isn't only just a smooth talker but can actually perform when the time comes and actually turn a profit, and giving MD idiots the comfort and solace into investing blindly just because the person is "known" and therefore somehow deemed trustworthy.
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Induc
Amarr
|
Posted - 2010.09.15 23:33:00 -
[66]
Sorry, but I enjoy calling people scammers and I must say this might be the most obvious attempt so far.
Originally by: Algalon This to me doesn't make any sense. At all. If someone wants to scam, they will. It doesn't matter how many or how few hours he's put into his MD reputation, because at the end of the day if his goal is a really fast payday for as little work as possible, then he'll scam.
So you're saying since everyone could scam, you should just hand out money to anyone and hope for the best? (Obvious alt of Ramingo btw)
Now Ramingo, if you've actually managed to get almost 7B already I would advice you to make a run for it, as this is probably as good as it's going to get.
On top of that, even if you're not going to scam, market manipulation in itself is very risky and unpredictable, and since no one knows if you're capable enough lets just summarize this offer as: VERY RISKY.
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F90OEX
F9X WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2010.09.15 23:52:00 -
[67]
Sounds like he has good intentions, but since I know 1 or 2 things about controlling markets (3.5 years+), depending on the Item/s your looking to buy/sell, as mentioned on the 1st page, I question if 10-15bil is going to be enough.
One thing about Market manipulation and control is expect the unexpected. What happens if all your 15bil or most of is invested and someone else comes along playing 1 Isk games, how are you going to get more Isk to stay on top. Because your going to need that extra capital.
Also personally I have never liked long term market manipulation of items sold on the market, you get in > profit > you get out and wait. Also the price history I have never liked since if your mark up is too high, smart buyers will either go to another region or wait til the price comes back down to "normal" levels.
And I mean not to knock you down and you seem like a nice chap, you have very little hands on experience, but what that said you seem to have the right knowledge.
Last thing I will mention you never make any friends with market manipulation and control, you have the bully, e-threaten (price) and some other tactics that work to get your competitors to go else where, you ALWAYS have to be on top of it and work.
This is why market traders get burned out easy since it requires too much effort and work, and you never see them again
On the F9X risk scale I'd give this a 7.5/10 for the reasons mentioned above.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.16 04:13:00 -
[68]
LB: I can't give you any figures on dividends, payback etc since I simply can't tell. And if I decide to pull out at any point, i.e. 30% losses or not enough profits, then whatever the wallet balance is will be paid out as a full dividend, i.e. I'll get 33% of the wallet due to my 5 bill out of 15 bill investment. That includes both profits and losses. And yeah, more than 15bill would reduce the risk, as I stated in the IPO, but you saw how people barely trust me with 10 bill because it's a first offering, and we're still a few hundred mill short of the minimum target for me to even start the process.
Lucyna: Think what you want, your points are valid but I'm not going to get into a war of the words around the lines of "you're going to scam" "no I'm not" blah blah. And thanks, a little luck is always appreciated.
Induc: Obvious troll
F9: I know, 15 bill isn't exactly a large sum for this but I have to start somewhere. I'll try and grow this and use parts of the profits to increase my capital so that when I move on to a different item/market I will have more initial cash to play with, without having to accept new investors. Given your CNR manipulations I was actually hoping to hire you for some consultation. And I don't care about friends on the market. I'll shoot my friends ingame if we're red, so why would I show any leniency to random traders? Also, worst case if I'm heavily invested and looking to make a huge profit but need extra capital quick, I still have a further 5-10 bill of my own that I can throw in to force the tide. Anyway, if you're up for it please contact me in-game on Ramingo or Tatal Zmeu I'd appreciate it.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.09.16 05:59:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Algalon
This to me doesn't make any sense. At all. If someone wants to scam, they will. It doesn't matter how many or how few hours he's put into his MD reputation, because at the end of the day if his goal is a really fast payday for as little work as possible, then he'll scam. If not, than that person just won't scam.
I've highlighted the important part. If this is his goal then by expecting a slower progression from new faces you stop the scammer who is after a fast payday from getting much isk for his effort. 10bil is not something you should be able to just pick up quickly after making a few dozen posts. By making this a difficult stage to attain you deter all those scammers looking for a large, fast payday. Obviously, this won't deter any one who only wants 1 bil but by demanding more effort for higher values you make scamming a less attractive, harder and more time-consuming option.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.16 06:47:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Ramingo on 16/09/2010 06:48:14 I agree with you Raw, it's just that in my case I had 3 options:
- Offer an IPO with 10 bill of outside investment - Do one with even less ISK and basically get nowhere as 15 bill is already on the low end of the MM spectrum - Do not do an IPO at all
For me, starting the rep grind just didn't make sense and still does not. I'm not a station trader, I don't play the 0.01 isk game. I consider myself a bigger-picture guy and that's why I skipped the small station trading bonds to establish a trading rep. In the end I could offer a 1b bond, then 5b, then jump to 20b as many have and still decide to scam the 20b bond irrespective of what my NAV was during the first 2 bonds.
Anyway, almost 7 bill of investment has been reserved and I'd consider that really good given that it's my first IPO. However, by the looks of things and lack of new investors in the last day other than some of my personal friends, it doesn't look like my minimum target will be reached and rather than wasting my time and taking a large gamble with MMing with too little isk, I will have to cancel the IPO in a few hours as stated in my original post. Since any isk that has been sent to me prematurely has been returned, this will consist merely of editing the thread and closing it. If anybody is interested I will sell the business plan for a bill or to the highest bidder (it's a great 1 as I've identified a vulnerability in the market) and someone with a better rep can try pulling it off.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2010.09.16 07:19:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Ramingo Edited by: Ramingo on 16/09/2010 06:48:14 I agree with you Raw, it's just that in my case I had 3 options:
- Offer an IPO with 10 bill of outside investment - Do one with even less ISK and basically get nowhere as 15 bill is already on the low end of the MM spectrum - Do not do an IPO at all
For me, starting the rep grind just didn't make sense and still does not. I'm not a station trader, I don't play the 0.01 isk game. I consider myself a bigger-picture guy and that's why I skipped the small station trading bonds to establish a trading rep. In the end I could offer a 1b bond, then 5b, then jump to 20b as many have and still decide to scam the 20b bond irrespective of what my NAV was during the first 2 bonds.
Anyway, almost 7 bill of investment has been reserved and I'd consider that really good given that it's my first IPO. However, by the looks of things and lack of new investors in the last day other than some of my personal friends, it doesn't look like my minimum target will be reached and rather than wasting my time and taking a large gamble with MMing with too little isk, I will have to cancel the IPO in a few hours as stated in my original post. Since any isk that has been sent to me prematurely has been returned, this will consist merely of editing the thread and closing it. If anybody is interested I will sell the business plan for a bill or to the highest bidder (it's a great 1 as I've identified a vulnerability in the market) and someone with a better rep can try pulling it off.
It's not a question of grinding rep so much as a question of not trying to get investors to do things that you yourself admit are questionable from an investor perspective. Skipping the first stage of the 1bil level bonds is something I can sympathise with, having done it myself, but leaping all the way to a 10bil bond is a bad idea for a range of reasons.
Putting aside the possibility that you yourself might scam, it is an irresponsible thing to try to do (from a community perspective) as, if successful, it sets a precedent that could cause problem in the future by encouraging low effort attempts to scam relatively large amounts. As someone who is offering a community service by providing audits it might be worth bearing in mind how certain actions can help or harm the 'investment community' (to the extent that there i one) at large.
/moralising
On another note, selling the plan is an excellent idea but you still need to get someone to verify that it is viable if you want to sell it publicly. This is something you really need to chase yourself, as with an audit, and then present to the public, rather than waiting until it is demanded.
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.16 07:47:00 -
[72]
Thanks for the moral lecture :P I was hoping for this to set a precedent, but on my behalf. In the future I'd like to repeat more IPOs using this style and technique which I had in mind at larger sums, with the average one being in the 30-40 billion range. But since it requires getting the first one started and using it for both increasing my own capital as well as finetuning the technique, selling the idea might be a better idea. Or I'll just do it entirely with my own isk and shoulder all the risk, then let myself get audited to show a track record/profitability, then relaunch another 15-20 bill bond.
Anyway at around 18:00 eve time I'll decide whether I'll run the IPO or poke some friends for the remainder of the isk to get this started, which would also give others who haven't seen my latest answers to last night's questions the chance to invest.
I just made up my mind regarding dividends/reinvestment and the best idea I can come up with at the moment is the following:
- Profit will be reinvested, i.e. little to no dividends until I have accumulated a large enough cash reserve to manipulate several different items/markets, or to expand in profitable existing ones. - Shares will be tradeable, so that any existing investor in need of isk can cash out at any time. Value of shares should increase proportionately to what dividends would have been. I don't make any extra money off this/risk of scam is same, but shareholder value increases. This I think is going to satisfy investors because they can have liquidity/decide to sell a small percentage of their shares instead of getting dividends, and also because it will increase the overall isk of the bond allowing me to achieve greater profits. At least that's what I learned at University ;) - Shares will be brokered by me, i.e. if an investor wants to sell, send shares to me, buyer sends isk to me and I'll swap them around. Unless of course there is no issue of trust between buyer and seller in which case you can do it between yourselves.
If anybody that has reserved shares does not like this idea then please retract your reservations now so others can fill the places in time.
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Alacta Lithia
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Posted - 2010.09.16 10:20:00 -
[73]
please reduce my reservation to 200mil.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.16 10:37:00 -
[74]
Quote:
It's not a question of grinding rep so much as a question of not trying to get investors to do things that you yourself admit are questionable from an investor perspective. Skipping the first stage of the 1bil level bonds is something I can sympathise with, having done it myself, but leaping all the way to a 10bil bond is a bad idea for a range of reasons.
I'd like to expand on this.
First of all, this might be a failed IPO but it's a succesful and valuable lesson, therefore Ramigo did not get out empty handed if he knows where to look.
Second. I post like a nut, my signature is everywhere and it has links to WTF to do in order to have a peaceful MD life (and also about auditors). The links are flagged with: "When looking for investors, please read...". Unsurprisingly, almost none will read anything about that.
Third, grinding rep should backfire and often does. Rep should be awarded and earned off the investors, not farmed.
Fourth, I can understand the idea that an initiative that requires (in Ramingo's plans) 15B makes the 1B - 2B etc. steps pointless.
BUT
There's a but. A mistake has been made. You can't think about your wants and even go so far as asking for public money without also considering that the others are also part of the equation. I mean, before the investee needs, comes also "what do the OTHERS" want? May a compromise or even an agreement be sealed if everyone shouts ME ME ME?
The sad truth is that as long as the "others" are those with the money, then the investee has to listen and even withstand them. Their money is at stake, in a game with ZERO security or accountability for those stealing it *or wasting / defaulting* it.
Even if the investors believe in the investee not scamming, they also want some idea that their money won't be lost because of self proclaimed:
- Undercapitalization. This is one of the top 3 failure reasons in RL trading / investment.
- Inexperience in that niche.
- Lack of records of any previous success.
This is why the 1B bonds happen.
This is why a NY skyscr_aper architect is probably demanded to be able to design a car box early in his career or GTFO.
I am sure that with some previous records (even about unrelated activities) and a basic acquaintaince with investors, 10B would not have been an issue to raise.
Acquaintance imho is one of the few decent ways to get trust. In fact, best scammers feign being a badass and nice investee first, they don't go "giev me 20B kthxbay". If they know this is the way to go, why wouldn't the legit investees try a similar approach?
If the investors are only ready to trust a new one with 1-2B even if he needs 10B, though luck for him. Hold the big requests and start small.
As I posted my teacher's lesson in my RL finance thread:
"You have to be ready for the market"
but also
"The market has to be ready for you".
This IPO failed in the latter and the OP gave little reassurance at the former.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Induc
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.09.16 11:14:00 -
[75]
Sure, I might be trolling a bit, but I'm just saying that asking for 10b on your first IPO instantly labels you as either a scammer or very naive. With that sum people will want to know exactly how you came up with that figure, how you're planning to use it and why you think you can handle it.
Originally by: Ramingo In the future I'd like to repeat more IPOs using this style and technique which I had in mind at larger sums, with the average one being in the 30-40 billion range.
If you're actually serious about this I just want to tell you that there's hardly anyone that has ever raised that kind of money uncollaterized, so getting there will take time.
As you said yourself, playing with your own 5b first, and then get an auditor to prove it was successful is probably the only way to go here.
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Titus Phook
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.09.16 20:28:00 -
[76]
If you do decide to go ahead with it I'd like to reserve 100 shares/100 million --------------------------------------------- Proudly posting with my Alt since 2009 |
Zekuloth
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Posted - 2010.09.16 23:23:00 -
[77]
I keep coming back to MD and keep realizing there is a huge number of dumb people with large amounts of isk they simply want to throw away and never have again. It wasnt enough for them to have lost billions to Bad Bobby but now here is a Bad Bobby alt and they just throwing more money away.
No info to what IPO is about - check. No Audit - check OP is evasive on questions related to IPO - check OP is relatively new to MD - check
THIS IS A SCAM - check.
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Lucyna
Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.09.16 23:49:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Zekuloth I keep coming back to MD and keep realizing there is a huge number of dumb people with large amounts of isk they simply want to throw away and never have again. It wasnt enough for them to have lost billions to Bad Bobby but now here is a Bad Bobby alt and they just throwing more money away.
No info to what IPO is about - check. No Audit - check OP is evasive on questions related to IPO - check OP is relatively new to MD - check
THIS IS A SCAM - check.
Cool bro. How about you go around in every thread like you have a hardon proclaiming that this is the next T4U? Eventually, you'll be right.
Checklist for you: You have 1 post in your history - Check You claim he is a BB alt with no proof - Check You claim to "keep coming back to MD" when there is no evidence you were ever "here" - Check The one post is in the Character Bazaar - Check
THIS IS A TARDY INDIVIDUAL - Check.
Now, go do some learning. You need it. _________ Eve - for when I'm not playing minecraft ;) |
Algalon
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Posted - 2010.09.17 01:36:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Induc Sorry, but I enjoy calling people scammers and I must say this might be the most obvious attempt so far.
Originally by: Algalon This to me doesn't make any sense. At all. If someone wants to scam, they will. It doesn't matter how many or how few hours he's put into his MD reputation, because at the end of the day if his goal is a really fast payday for as little work as possible, then he'll scam.
So you're saying since everyone could scam, you should just hand out money to anyone and hope for the best? (Obvious alt of Ramingo btw)
Wow guy, you're really too funny. Selective comprehension much? What I said is that if someone starts an MD venture with the intentions to scam, then that person will scam plain and simple. No amount of audits or past successful ventures can stop him, unless he's a lazy scammer or just too stupid to cover his bases. What I said is that in the end, it really comes down to DO YOU FEEL LIKE YOU TRUST the person you're lending out your money to. Short of a collateralized offer, there is always the potential to get scammed.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.17 02:09:00 -
[80]
Nice to see your sticking to your original terms of the IPO that attracted the investors.
Let me now put this IPO in nice plain MD Cosmo English.
OP's terms
1. Highly speculative IPO worth total of 15B (5B of OP money) 2. High risk/high reward or loss 3. Change terms to zero dividend payments 4. Share trading only 5. You provide reports until close out for total accumulated pot 6. You announced that you would like to be able to run larger pools of ISk to better manipulate market
Translation
1. I am launching a high risk 15B ISK IPO 2. No audit, or someone who will pass me easily that I can show I have sufficient cash to do this 3. After 1 month I have done awesome turning it into 18B ISK and just paid everyone out, which is a 20% 1 month return I am a god. BTW my results won't be able to be verified by audit because they might steal my secrets. 4. Now announcing a 40B high risk IPO growth fund of which I am holding 10B in shares. 5. After 1 month the fund is worth 46.8B ISK, but I am afraid will not be verifiable by audit. Confidentiality, you know how it is old boy. 6. Month 2 fund is at 61B ISK. 7. Share trading has been rather brisk with share value up by a third. 8. Please pay no attention to my alts who have secretly been selling my shares at inflated values. 9. I have sold all my shares and STFU suckers, I made 46.2B ISK for about 12 MD posts. 11. I am an MD SCAM god!!
Anyone who even thinks about investing with these change of terms needs to be shot. Biggest red flags for investing you will ever see.
Obvious scam is obvious.
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Varcynal Risk
Gallente The Craniac Blazing Angels Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.17 05:04:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Varcynal Risk on 17/09/2010 05:06:24 Cosmoray's post has inspired me! Put me down for 50 Shares instead of my original 10!
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Lucyna
Minmatar Interstellar Killer Bee Enterprises
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Posted - 2010.09.17 05:44:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Varcynal Risk Edited by: Varcynal Risk on 17/09/2010 05:06:24 Cosmoray's post has inspired me! Put me down for 50 Shares instead of my original 10!
Love the name :) almost sounds like Financial Risk which I'm all for.
Really, it's not a dig at OP, I swear. Really. Don't believe me? _________ Eve - for when I'm not playing minecraft ;) |
Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.17 06:18:00 -
[83]
Originally by: cosmoray
"whine, somebody other than myself is making a new entry into M&D and I don't want to have more competitors to my cosmo bonds"
You've done nothing but spew nonesense in my post, accusations which were partly debunked by myself and aprtly by others.
Reading your latest rant I can't ignore it. IPO failed (and btw, if I wanted to scam I'd have taken the 7+ bill and found some different way to "run the IPO" rather than closing it and not doing it anymore) but you're still a douchebag cosmo.
Translation
1. I am launching a high risk 15B ISK IPO 10 Bill, for the 2nd time directly to you. One of these days you might grasp that bit. 2. No audit, or someone who will pass me easily that I can show I have sufficient cash to do this VV would pass me easily? I offered to tell him everything. In addition I never said I wouldn't do an audit. I said I'm happy to get myself audited, except I stated my reservations as to its usefulness in this case. 3. After 1 month I have done awesome turning it into 18B ISK and just paid everyone out, which is a 20% 1 month return I am a god. BTW my results won't be able to be verified by audit because they might steal my secrets. Everybody with over 500 mill invested would have junior accountant roles so verify throughout the IPO. You're an idiot if you don't get that this is verification/auditing at its most extreme, being under constant voluntary surveillance. 4. Now announcing a 40B high risk IPO growth fund of which I am holding 10B in shares. Yeah but when? What makes you think I'd have done that immediately? Where did I give anything about a time frame? For all you know I would have done it after 100% of the initial bond was repaid and then, using my newly gained expertise, keep making isk, more than I would by scamming? Again you show nothing but unfounded bias. 5. After 1 month the fund is worth 46.8B ISK, but I am afraid will not be verifiable by audit. Confidentiality, you know how it is old boy. Same as before. 6. Month 2 fund is at 61B ISK. Who knows 7. Share trading has been rather brisk with share value up by a third. Probably 8. Please pay no attention to my alts who have secretly been selling my shares at inflated values. Except junior accountants can see who the shareholders are and if my shares have been sold. 9. I have sold all my shares and STFU suckers, I made 46.2B ISK for about 12 MD posts. Right. 11. I am an MD SCAM god!! You forgot 10. And looks to me like you're the scam god trying to debunk any rivals and positioning yourself for the BIG SCAM. GOTTA CATCH BB RIGHT?
Seriously, you're a douchebag for the abovementioned reasons and obviously either lack the IQ for clear thought, or did such an obvious troll simply to **** me off. Congrats, your idiotic comments AFTER I closed the bond did just that.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.09.17 06:38:00 -
[84]
For Pete's sake, it's "MD", not "M&D" - there is no "and" in "Market Discussions".
Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users! |
Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.17 07:07:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ramingo 2. No audit, or someone who will pass me easily that I can show I have sufficient cash to do this VV would pass me easily? I offered to tell him everything. In addition I never said I wouldn't do an audit. I said I'm happy to get myself audited, except I stated my reservations as to its usefulness in this case.
You did state you would accept only the one auditor who everybody on MD knows not to accept new jobs. You didn't give any rationale why VV is more trustworthy in your eyes than the other 4-5 auditors of this forum who might actually accept the job. That comes down to "I won't accept audits" formulated in a way that would hopefully attract less criticism.
Originally by: Ramingo 4. Now announcing a 40B high risk IPO growth fund of which I am holding 10B in shares. Yeah but when? What makes you think I'd have done that immediately? Where did I give anything about a time frame? For all you know I would have done it after 100% of the initial bond was repaid and then, using my newly gained expertise, keep making isk, more than I would by scamming? Again you show nothing but unfounded bias.
"When" doesn't really matter as long as it's within the next 6-12 months. You might want to read the comments on Xabier's scam - before the scam everybody argued "known MD participation/history, great offering" and only afterwards they realized "wtf, we didn't even know this guy one year ago - how could anybody have given him access to that much ISK?".
The only way you can make more ISK by staying legit than by scamming is if you intend to do an additional expansion and need people's trust for that. But you cannot scale up your offerings forever and I guess as a unknown you would hit the ceiling pretty fast. For the last offering it's always rational to scam as you get all the ISK you could expect by executing your business plus the value of the scam. I cannot see how you would make more ISK by not scamming...
You have been very forthcoming (although sometimes evasive) throughout most of this thread - now that your immediate need for public ISK is gone, you start flaming. That's bad.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.17 08:02:00 -
[86]
Quote:
You did state you would accept only the one auditor who everybody on MD knows not to accept new jobs.
Two things: one is the sad realization that you could have stopped your sentence after "only the one auditor". I don't see new auditors coming up that are good for it. There'd be Magnu and Grendell who somehow play around the field but they act more as security / accounting than actively auditing. Even Ji Sama seems to have stepped down (understandably, he got a big hit imho).
The second thing is that "everybody on MD knows not to accept new jobs" is incorrect, I just posted one audit yesterday and if my next customer didn't give up (I have him waiting...) I'll check him out as well. Obviously, between having the RL job pressing more and more as we close to Christmas and being the one still active, it's easy to get stalled on the whole line.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Mme Pinkerton
United Engineering Services
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Posted - 2010.09.17 08:14:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Mme Pinkerton on 17/09/2010 08:15:05
I don't agree with rgds to other auditors - one could at least have asked Magnu, Varo, Kazuo, Breaker, Ji, Lord Arbalest, (anyone I missed?) ...
On the question of your availability I stand corrected, from you not being available for most requests I concluded you had no time for doing audits at all which is of course a fallacy.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.17 08:36:00 -
[88]
Quote:
I don't agree with rgds to other auditors - one could at least have asked Magnu, Varo, Kazuo, Breaker, Ji, Lord Arbalest, (anyone I missed?) ...
Recurring about every third audit request, I get told that the guy tried asking everyone of the above with no success. Other times I don't even need to get told, as I directly see the evemail being addressed to all of them and others. When I talk about active auditors I really intend those who are actually active and keep spitting audits, not those in a list of names of "potential, wereauditors" or those only moving for 30B+ offerings by friends. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.17 08:45:00 -
[89]
Out of all the accusations of scamming, I flamed only 2 people. Lucyna mildly, and cosmoray heavily because what he wrote was purely his opinion with statements made based on his own lies which is why I went vocal against him.
The funny thing is you cry scam regarding my IPO, which is based on hiding 0 facts around my persona (alts, activities, etc) except for the actual facts of the business plan which I couldn't reveal due to its nature. On the other hand you're more than happy to throw isk at people with 100% trade alts, who create new accounts/identities to bypass security checks in MD, just because they earned 200 mill off a 1 bill bond and then 500 mill off a 2 bill bond and then expand to 10+ bill at once. If I wanted to, knowing the ins and outs of MD security checks, I could easily have scammed NOT using my main backed by the identities of all my alts, based on 2+ years of gaming and a reputation in-game as PvPer, Corp/Militia leader, etc...
Am I annoyed that my IPO failed because of the last 10% or so of funding? Definitely. Will I be offering this IPO in future? If I don't sell the idea, then yes, but not advertised via MD. Will I be laughing the next time you guys invest 10+ bill into some other venture based on some guy who can change his identity in the 1 day or so it takes to biomass his trade alt? Most definitely.
Pity...my intentions were not to scam, as the fact that some of my friends also wanted to invest, who have trusted me with far more isk than that during my time as their corp leader. But in the end I'll go run it myself once I have enough isk, while you're going to either get scammed or miss out on golden opportunities.
Regarding auditors, VV I stated because he took a fair amount of time to post in my thread (and my audit 1) and I assumed that would mean he'd be interested/have/make time for an audit. And nothing against VV, but he's not rich enough to have screwed me over on the business plan by buying the items I'd have pointed out before going through with the audit. I didn't trust any others of the reputed auditors to do that except for Ji Sama, but he didn't post so wasn't on my radar at the time.
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Varcynal Risk
Gallente The Craniac Blazing Angels Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.17 09:07:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ramingo
*snip*
Lame. Haters gonna hate.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.09.17 12:02:00 -
[91]
Quote:
And nothing against VV, but he's not rich enough to have screwed me over on the business plan by buying the items I'd have pointed out before going through with the audit
Beware to never project your beliefs and rationalize them as truth, it's what makes investors lose big time.
In your case, while it's known to everyone that I don't play EvE to make money, if I REALLY wanted I could buy your whole IPO out about twice. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Ramingo
Caldari Payable on Death
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Posted - 2010.09.17 12:04:00 -
[92]
And even that's not a lot of isk compared to those that I'd have been afraid of finding out about.
Anyway, it's over. Big thanks to the 7 bill of investors, sorry I couldn't pull it off. I know a few of you were just as eager as I was to try this out but c'est la vie.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Holdings Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.17 14:55:00 -
[93]
emorage quit.
There goes a CEO and auditing career.
When will people learn not to be emotional and deal with the problems. The problem with this is that OP moved from a difficult (but not impossible) to fill IPO due to very hard circumstances (new player, too much cash, no defined business case) to a new IPO that was classic SCAM material (new player, no dividends just growth, wants to expand) within the launch.
As soon as people state they don't want to pay dividends, it usually means they don't want to part with any of the cash they have brought in. Scam alert.
The faces may change but over the last 4 years (for me anyway), the signs always remain the same.
I would say that MD has become pretty good at avoiding the immediate scams (money lost after day 1), but loses sight of its vigilance when proven managers start to expand. As a rule I never take up shares in any players expansion.
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My Entity
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.09.17 15:24:00 -
[94]
Not that I have anything against Ramingo...
But as a public accountant working for one of the Big Four in the real world, with years of experience in IPOs and venture capitals (from one fund with 10 million USD to 34 funds with 3 billion USD)in Silicon Valley, no sane investors would ever invest in this "IPO."
Once again, I have nothing against Ramingo. Just coming from my "professional" experience.
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