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Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.18 12:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Bill O''Really on 18/09/2010 12:49:15 Edited by: Bill O''Really on 18/09/2010 12:38:45
Recently announced Noctis
80 km Tractors and a great cycle bonus to Salvagers make for some sweet ass loot boat.
Now in the case of a Golem I can still see the worth training up Marauders, but a Paladin is an other story: In the "Paladin vs. Nightmare" debate, the Pally only had its tractor bonuses going for it: A Nightmare has higher dps (more damage mods possible with a shield tank), a sweet natural tracking bonus (translates into even higher dps) and potentially an awesome tank. With a Noctis as your sidekick/looting vessel you can cherry pick wrecks up to 80km's out regardless the ship you are using to kill the rats with.
Seeing that a lot of Paladin bs kills can be done outside of a Marauder's 40 km tractor range with Tachyons, I wonder if the Pally has become obsolete now that we'll get access to a Noctis.
If you look at skill training plans, it might even be faster to cross train for a Nightmare instead of getting AWU to 5 and training Marauders. It also opens up a whole range of other ships for you to fly around in.
What are your thoughts on this?
Should Marauders get a small tractor range buff to compensate this? I would still be flying a Paladin over a nightmare if it had a 60km tractor range for instance.
CCP Greybeard's stance on this I sadly can not agree with:
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
We did consider Marauders during the design for the Noctis, and we don't feel like the two ships overlap particularly. The only obvious scenario where a Marauder is now markedly less useful is where you're dual-boxing a PvE site that has no additional spawns or risk of aggro switches. We feel that this constitutes a sufficiently small subset of a Marauder's common use cases that it's not a significant issue.
(Based on the assumption that if you're PVEing in a Marauder, you shouldn't be experiencing a significant lag between final NPC killed and final wreck salvaged.)
Sadly he isn't convinced of the awesomeness of being able to effectively field a full rack of Tachyon's either and doesn't seem to realize how many rat kills this nets you in the 40km + range and the vast advantage of a 80km tractor range over a Marauder's 40 km one if you field tachs.
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Baraka Saibot
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Posted - 2010.09.18 12:45:00 -
[2]
60Km range
5*60 = 300
20*3 = 60
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Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.18 12:52:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Bill O''Really on 18/09/2010 12:55:09
Originally by: Baraka Saibot 60Km range
5*60 = 300
20*3 = 60
Not if you look at how a Marauder's tractor range is calculated: "+100% bonus" makes for 40km, so +300% would be 80km.
edit: Or an Orca's: +250% tractor range makes for 70 km's.
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Rovan Stargazer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.18 13:05:00 -
[4]
Yes it's 80km.
I'm now around 45 (all skills that i need) days away from flying golem, and i realy got second thoughts about spending that much time to train for it, when i can just use CNR and Noctis, and in that time train up for tengu, or use that time for some other skills. Golem still has some advantages yes, but it also has some disandvatages, specialy when it comes to price, time, range etc. It is a realy hard decision.
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Star P'ergish
Minmatar DELUXE INVEST
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Posted - 2010.09.18 13:49:00 -
[5]
yep sadly Paladin is surely ****ed , need to start training for Nightmare. Another example of CCP ****ting all over my time and effort. If you donĘt care where you are, you ainĘt lost. |

McRoll
Minmatar Heatseekers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.09.18 14:53:00 -
[6]
Edited by: McRoll on 18/09/2010 14:54:14 I say it comes down on how you fly. If you are dualboxing, a noctis/faction bs combo is probably better than a marauder/salvage ship combo. Also, if salvaging after a mission is your thing, training Marauders is not worth it.
However, if you have only one account and salvage on the fly while you are shooting stuff, the Noctis doesn't change the isk/h I think. You will always be better isk wise if you fly already another mission compared to salvaging the old one. I am always looting and salvaging the big wrecks in my vargur and once i cleaned the room i will have salvaged and looted all large and most medium wrecks so it doesnt make sense for me to come again in a dedicated salvager. Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |

Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.09.18 14:55:00 -
[7]
glad I only took marauder skill to 3.  --
"You can't live a perfect day without doing something for someone who will never be able to repay you." -John Wooden |

Anddeh McNab
Matari Department of Gun Control
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Posted - 2010.09.18 15:45:00 -
[8]
Your general title is far too misleading of your situational problem. It should be "Training Paladin still worth it if you factor in a Noctis?". This being due to the silly range of Tachyons. Just because a Nightmare/Noctis (either solo or dualboxing) setup may or may not be more efficient/faster/higher e-peen/blah/blah doesn't mean that Marauders should be discounted enitrely. If you regualarly kill stuff at over 40km then yes, a Noctis is probably for you. However, if you playstyle or ship choice means that things will die in the sub-40km range (see CCP Greyscale and Megapulses) then you probably don't need one. Unless you don't salvage as you kill, then it may be worth getting yourself a Noctis to hoover it all up at the end. So to answer your question more formally; is training Marauders still worth it if you factor in a Noctis? It depends. If you have a ship that regularly fights enemies in the sub-40km range (for example, Golem/Vargur fighting Angels) then a Noctis isn't going to make your life any easier or faster. However, should you find yourself fighting enemies that like to lurk at 50km or more (for example, Arty Mael fighting Serps/Gurista or Tach Pala fight whatever the heck you godbotherers fight in godbotherer space) then a Noctis will probably relieve some headaches because, damn it, looting a mission where everything is spread all over the grid is a pain in the pod goo filled ass.
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Bill O'Really
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Posted - 2010.09.18 15:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Anddeh McNab Your general title is far too misleading of your situational problem. It should be "Training Paladin still worth it if you factor in a Noctis?". This being due to the silly range of Tachyons. Just because a Nightmare/Noctis (either solo or dualboxing) setup may or may not be more efficient/faster/higher e-peen/blah/blah doesn't mean that Marauders should be discounted enitrely. If you regualarly kill stuff at over 40km then yes, a Noctis is probably for you. However, if you playstyle or ship choice means that things will die in the sub-40km range (see CCP Greyscale and Megapulses) then you probably don't need one. Unless you don't salvage as you kill, then it may be worth getting yourself a Noctis to hoover it all up at the end. So to answer your question more formally; is training Marauders still worth it if you factor in a Noctis? It depends. If you have a ship that regularly fights enemies in the sub-40km range (for example, Golem/Vargur fighting Angels) then a Noctis isn't going to make your life any easier or faster. However, should you find yourself fighting enemies that like to lurk at 50km or more (for example, Arty Mael fighting Serps/Gurista or Tach Pala fight whatever the heck you godbotherers fight in godbotherer space) then a Noctis will probably relieve some headaches because, damn it, looting a mission where everything is spread all over the grid is a pain in the pod goo filled ass.
I agree with your assessment. I did mention the Golem in the first post and that it still might be worth it and I admit not knowing much about any marauder except for Plad0ns and missioning with them in Amarr space. This is why I only elaborated on that specific case. If any other Marauders are affected; I honestly don't know and I urge people to speak up on behalf of their own ship. I also agree that in Angel or Drones mission, megapulse is preferable but we are talking about maybe the 70% of lvl 4's with groups sitting at 40km + and can be immediately engaged for tremendous righteous laser fire.
That said, I order you to acknowledge Amarr as the only true empire of man and bid you to submit to its god given might, rebel.
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Moose Burger
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Posted - 2010.09.18 16:15:00 -
[10]
do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not
skip golem.
Unlike paladin-nightmare and vargur-machariel, NOTHING replaces golem. It is god.
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Roland Smithe
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Posted - 2010.09.18 16:26:00 -
[11]
it that ship actualy coming out were did you get the info from think am out of the loop on this one.
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Goose99
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Posted - 2010.09.18 17:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Moose Burger do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not
skip golem.
Unlike paladin-nightmare and vargur-machariel, NOTHING replaces golem. It is god.
Ever heard of CNR? lol
Besides, both mach and vargur blitz faster than golem on all missions. NM blitz faster on Amar missions.
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Irae Ragwan
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Posted - 2010.09.18 20:02:00 -
[13]
I'm a bit confused as to how this is going to change things much. In most situations i'm finding salvage is not worth the time. In the few situations when I am using a marauder, i'm still merely slavaging as convenience what ever I can get on my way through. I hardly see this new ship changing that for most missioners.
Then again, most people are stupid. I assume this means that there will be an explosion of cheap rigs hitting the market from all the "free salvage," everyone's been doing. So good stuff either way.
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Hyey
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Posted - 2010.09.18 22:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Moose Burger do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not do not
skip golem.
Unlike paladin-nightmare and vargur-machariel, NOTHING replaces golem. It is god.
You have heard of a CNR haven't you? ~~ Hyey
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Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.19 00:13:00 -
[15]
I use a torp Golem for L4's fitted with 2 Tractor Beams and 1 Salvager II. In general, when I finish shooting I'll generally have looted all battleship and cruiser wrecks, and most often the small ones too, plus have salvaged at least all large wrecks, and probably most medium wrecks too. My skills are close to maxed so I finish L4's very quickly too...
I'll have milked the mission for between 95% and 100% of it's total value (probably the upper end of that range), so any kind of salvage/looting ship really is superfluous...
When the mission objective is completed I leave immediately (though I'll probably kill all BS first). There's simply not enough money (isk/minute) in looting/salvaging the rest that it can in any way come close to what I can earn running extra missions instead.
The Noctis is an interesting ship, but of limited use to anyone who can fly a Marauder well in L4's (at least the Golem). It is probably much more useful when having younger players help loot/salvage L5's...
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2010.09.19 00:15:00 -
[16]
There are only a few wrecks that are going to be left outside 40km. You could (a) slowboat over to them or (b) switch ships and pick up all the wrecks with a Noctis after you've completed the mission.
Salvaging wrecks as you go means that travel time can be subsumed into salvaging time, and it will only be the last couple of wrecks that you have to spend non-shooting time on collecting. Of course if you are in the habit of blowing up the juicy NPCs at maximum tachyon range, you're better off with the Noctis.
So weigh up the time taken to warp back to station, switch ships, warp out to your wreck field, and then salvage all the wrecks; versus slowboating in the paladin to within tractor range of the last couple of wrecks. -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.09.19 00:19:00 -
[17]
I was going to write something but I think Kerfira said it well enough.
the tl;dr: looting and salvaging as you go > killing a bit faster, docking, switching ships, and coming back to salvage
(although I did ask for 60km tractors on marauders in one thread )
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Abaroth Charmar
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Posted - 2010.09.19 01:36:00 -
[18]
The optimal on the Pally with Imp Navy Multis is 36km, conveniently just within 40km tractor range.
It's as if it was meant to be! 
Never understood the Pally vs Nightmare argument.
I am pure Amarr, I don't want to sully my skill tree with filthy Caldari skills!
My Pally is at 1107 DPS and is, for all intents and purposes, totally cap stable. Perfect for those unexpected AFK moments in the middle of a mission when RL takes over.
The "best" missioning Nightmare on Battleclinic is 1135 DPS, the cap management is awful, it is 13m/s slower, has half the cargo capacity and obviously only has solitary 20km 500m/s tractor.
The Nightmare is also over 200 mill more expensive than the Pally.
I know people are going to reply with "Zomg! You forgot about the uber Nightmare tracking bonus" but I can honestly say I have never had any trouble with tracking on my Pally. Faction web, Faction TC, Drones. If they aren't enough, your skills are rubbish or you're doing it wrong tbh.
TL;DR = If you're a single player with one account soloing a Lvl4, a Pally is unbeatable for non-blitz Amarr missioning.
That said, wouldn't mind a tractor buff if there's one going? lol
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TheMahdi
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Posted - 2010.09.19 02:47:00 -
[19]
Edited by: TheMahdi on 19/09/2010 02:47:59 I will prefer Noctis for a few reasons.
The only missions worth salvaging, except for WC and AE, mostly are out of tractor range for Marauder because **** dies so quickly. I have to slow down to let them get closer so I don't kill them out of 40km range. On those particular missions, my Nightmare/CNR does them quicker and doesn't need to move/slow down DPS. Like Pirate Invasion or Intercept the Sabetours as an example.
All hail the Noctis!
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Elizabeth Norn
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Posted - 2010.09.19 03:48:00 -
[20]
I'll definitely be replacing my alt's salvagecane with the Noctis, and I'll probably stick with the 6 salvagers/2 tractors as 90% of wrecks get sucked into a ball by my golem anyway.
I certainly won't be swapping the golem for a torp CNR for the following reasons.
- Tech 2 ammo is expensive enough, using 3 more launchers and all 7 being 25% fast does not sound good.
- Lower alpha/worse TPing - will I still 1 shot frigs/destroyers/cruisers/BCs and 2 shot BS with rage?
- Try getting a 4 damage mods, 3 TP and a reasonable tank on a CNR. lol CPU mod.
- The CNR's cargohold will be full up just from ammo/cap boosters, I need more room for Damsels and Slaves.
- 30 m/s slower with Javelin torps.
- The CNR's single possible tractor is almost useless and I'd probably want a 4/4 salvager/tractor fit for the Noctis which would slow down salvaging greatly.
- No TP, Explosion Velocity or Shield Booster bonus
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Rovan Stargazer
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.09.19 06:31:00 -
[21]
With noctis you will not need any salvaging during mission. You will just warp in, salvage all in few min and use next gates. And you don't need to wait for mobs to come in range.
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Hyey
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Posted - 2010.09.19 22:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Elizabeth Norn I'll definitely be replacing my alt's salvagecane with the Noctis, and I'll probably stick with the 6 salvagers/2 tractors as 90% of wrecks get sucked into a ball by my golem anyway.
I certainly won't be swapping the golem for a torp CNR for the following reasons.
That last line made your entire list completely pointless.
CNR use cruise missiles. 1-2 TP and Rigor mods make tech 2 cruise missiles > golem in DPS IIRC. They don't have an explo velocity bonus but in return Rigor rigs actually work on their main weapon.
IF you're using a cap booster on a Golem you're doing something very wrong. CNR doesn't need one either. I understand using a cap booster on a starter raven but on anything else it's simply not needed, you should be good enough in missions to go without. ~~ Hyey
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Elizabeth Norn
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Posted - 2010.09.20 17:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hyey
That last line made your entire list completely pointless.
I was tired and wanted to make sure I didn't forget anything ;)
Originally by: Hyey
CNR use cruise missiles. 1-2 TP and Rigor mods make tech 2 cruise missiles > golem in DPS IIRC.
I agree with the first statement, as I run a cruise CNR for those hard to reach mission rats, however the second is just absolutely absurd.
Originally by: Hyey
IF you're using a cap booster on a Golem you're doing something very wrong. CNR doesn't need one either. I understand using a cap booster on a starter raven but on anything else it's simply not needed, you should be good enough in missions to go without.
I'm sorry but it appears you do not run missions in a properly fit Golem, take a look at this:
[Golem, torps] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5
Now I will add that the capacitor booster isn't necessary for all (perhaps most) missions but for ones like Enemies Abound 1/5 where I want to burn to to the objective point and doing so requires me to tank the whole pocket for a little while.
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Hyey
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Posted - 2010.09.21 00:43:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Elizabeth Norn
Originally by: Hyey
That last line made your entire list completely pointless.
I was tired and wanted to make sure I didn't forget anything ;)
Originally by: Hyey
CNR use cruise missiles. 1-2 TP and Rigor mods make tech 2 cruise missiles > golem in DPS IIRC.
I agree with the first statement, as I run a cruise CNR for those hard to reach mission rats, however the second is just absolutely absurd.
Originally by: Hyey
IF you're using a cap booster on a Golem you're doing something very wrong. CNR doesn't need one either. I understand using a cap booster on a starter raven but on anything else it's simply not needed, you should be good enough in missions to go without.
I'm sorry but it appears you do not run missions in a properly fit Golem, take a look at this:
[Golem, torps] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster Caldari Navy Photon Scattering Field Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter Republic Fleet Target Painter
Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Torpedo Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Hobgoblin II x5 Hammerhead II x5
Now I will add that the capacitor booster isn't necessary for all (perhaps most) missions but for ones like Enemies Abound 1/5 where I want to burn to to the objective point and doing so requires me to tank the whole pocket for a little while.
You call that properly fit?
I don't understand the XL booster seeing as I've never ever EVER needed one. My Golem tanks all missions fine with a large booster, 2 CN invulns, and an Amp. More than 1 way to skin a cat and all that I suppose but to say that only a cap booster fit is "proper" is naive.
Hell all you really need on a golem is a Pith A-Type med really...there is ZERO need for a Gist XL. ~~ Hyey
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.21 00:52:00 -
[25]
My personal testing showed that if you return to a mission in any ship at any time for loot and salvage, you would have been better off just flying the Marauder and looting as you go. The BS and some BC wrecks are the only ones worth touching to begin with.
The Noctis seems like more of a boon for the people who haven't hit the mission-running big time, and based on the construction costs it looks like it'll be pretty cheap and easy to fly.
I plan on swooping on the glut of Hurricane contracts post patch...that ship should have been used for something better to begin with. 
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Slimy Worm
Cyan Wolf
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Posted - 2010.09.21 01:19:00 -
[26]
You have to divide any profit you make by 2 if you use an alt to salvage for you, whereas you can salvage as you go with marauders.
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Slimy Worm
Cyan Wolf
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Posted - 2010.09.21 01:21:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Slimy Worm on 21/09/2010 01:23:09
Originally by: Star P'ergish yep sadly Paladin is surely ****ed , need to start training for Nightmare. Another example of CCP ****ting all over my time and effort.
Since when does grinding mission and putting skills in your queue require effort?
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Trebor Whettam
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Posted - 2010.09.21 01:49:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Trebor Whettam on 21/09/2010 01:55:14 The whole point of Marauders is that you loot and salvage while simultaneously completing missions faster than with a battleship and nearly as fast as a faction/pirate battleship (faster in some cases with the Golem). Although looting/salvaging in the Noctis will certainly be faster than with a marauder, it won't be so fast that it generates more isk/hr than missioning with that marauder (bounties, LP, competion awards, and a bit of loot on the side).
I believe that the real sweet spot for the Noctis is as wormhole salvager.
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Kephael
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.09.21 01:59:00 -
[29]
You'd make more isk/hr if your second account dealt dps rather than salvaged.
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Xanders Root
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Posted - 2010.09.21 11:55:00 -
[30]
My 2 cents: Noctis is a salvage boat. There do you really need a dedicated salvage boat wia ability to grab wrecks upto 80 km away. - WH plexes and anomalies. One who blitz mission - do not need it cause return and salveage = less profit than blitzing one more mission. One who salvage mission - commonly salvage big wrecks and do it sitting in marauder. Young playes who commonly use salvadestr to salvege wrecks would be happy. So we can see two focus groups. Youngsters (as destro salvager replacement) and WH-ers (as rorq/marauder(4/3) salvager replacement).
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