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Kensai Assassin
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Posted - 2010.09.21 00:56:00 -
[1]
Hey all
I am looking for a new ship. I am wondering which is better for faction warfare?
Absolution (Amarr CS)
vs.
Zealot (Amarr HAC)
I love the HAC because it looks great but overall if they were both Pith A-typed fitted (no lolfits) which would you choose and what kind of targets can it handle?
This is NOT a troll...please I am actually curious to know!
Thanks W&T
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Elle D
Ars ex Discordia Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.09.21 02:23:00 -
[2]
Navy Omen. You will just get soloed by a Dramiel in a Zealot, and an Abso is more of a bait/fleet ship(imo) Good luck.
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Kensai Assassin
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Posted - 2010.09.21 02:41:00 -
[3]
What?! Navy Omen vs Zealot?
Hmm okay so i checked it out....More armor resists....T2
....More raw speed....1 less high-slot yes....but why am I fighting a Dram? I am not the type of person that just runs in an shoots....I pick and choose my fights..i do not want to spam for kill mails...rather have less kill mails but not being stupid bought it.
Let me give some more information about myself and my topic maybe....it might help out a bit:
- Money...dont give a **** bout isks...I buy Plex's and sell em every 2-3 days - I have a mission carebear alt in a shiny Machariel that also spams missions level 4's with my brother in law and we split the money
So basically....money doesnt matter to me
- I will be fitting any ship with Pith - typed items with PROPER FITTINGS for that ship.
Honestly I really appriciate the help every! I know I sound like a noob. And I dont HAVE any kill mails yet...but I am not green to the game but I would love to really hear from the more experts.
Maybe the Navy Omen IS better and if so I deeply apologize...if it is please tell me what I am missing or not seeing there.
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ShahFluffers
Gallente Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.09.21 03:17:00 -
[4]
Edited by: ShahFluffers on 21/09/2010 03:24:04
Originally by: Kensai Assassin What?! Navy Omen vs Zealot?
Hmm okay so i checked it out....More armor resists....T2
....More raw speed....1 less high-slot yes....but why am I fighting a Dram? I am not the type of person that just runs in an shoots....I pick and choose my fights..i do not want to spam for kill mails...rather have less kill mails but not being stupid bought it.
What makes you think that random Dramiel is going to give you a choice? Properly fit, one can cover 100km in a little under the same time it takes you to align out and warp off. Once he/she is too close your Zealot will not be able to hit it and and with no drones or tackle you will eventually succumb. The same goes with interceptors that you land too close to.
Let me put it another way... the Zealot is a "specialty" ship that can really do only one thing very well... inflict pain at range. Beyond this, the Zealot suffers from a lack of versatility and cannot defend itself properly when put into a situation that is not favorable to it (which is pretty much anything that doesn't include the terms "range" and/or "logistics"). And before you restate that you will not be engaging in "unfavorable" situations let me point back to the above scenario and say this: you do not find unfavorable situations, they find YOU!
So don't knock the Navy Omen... that drone bay, however small, can mean the difference between being a ganker or gankee. _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Widemouth Deepthroat
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Posted - 2010.09.21 03:56:00 -
[5]
Ashimmu
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Mutant Caldari
Caldari Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.09.21 05:17:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Kensai Assassin What?! Navy Omen vs Zealot?
Hmm okay so i checked it out....More armor resists....T2
....More raw speed....1 less high-slot yes....but why am I fighting a Dram? I am not the type of person that just runs in an shoots....I pick and choose my fights..i do not want to spam for kill mails...rather have less kill mails but not being stupid bought it.
Let me give some more information about myself and my topic maybe....it might help out a bit:
- Money...dont give a **** bout isks...I buy Plex's and sell em every 2-3 days - I have a mission carebear alt in a shiny Machariel that also spams missions level 4's with my brother in law and we split the money
So basically....money doesnt matter to me
- I will be fitting any ship with Pith - typed items with PROPER FITTINGS for that ship.
Honestly I really appriciate the help every! I know I sound like a noob. And I dont HAVE any kill mails yet...but I am not green to the game but I would love to really hear from the more experts.
Maybe the Navy Omen IS better and if so I deeply apologize...if it is please tell me what I am missing or not seeing there.
And here we have a classic example of why selling PLEX and being purely a carebear is a bad thing. Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it? Killboard link is not allowed to be used in a signature.Applebabe
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knobber Jobbler
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.09.21 05:45:00 -
[7]
those two ships are for different roles. if you're a pvp noob, just buy some bc's to start with, flying expensive specialised ships just makes you a target and you won't learn a thing other than humility when people kill you for lol mails.
in pvp expensive modules don't really help that much if you don't have the player skills to know what to do in given situations.
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Alessia Suvayarin
Invicta. Cry Havoc.
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Posted - 2010.09.21 11:29:00 -
[8]
Pith A-Type mods are shield mods. You probably mean the equivalent armor mods (Core/Centus/Corpus A-Type) which is also equivalently daring in faction warfare unless you really know what you are doing and/or have too much ISK.
Anyways, both ships are farily similar. The Zealot will most likely serve you better in gangs with its range flexibility. Solo the Abso is a tad better although with only 3 mid slots both ships are not exactly the definition of a good solo mobile. A medium neutralizer and a pack of light drones on the Abso will give you protection against frigate sized ships whereas the Zealot might very well die to a Dramiel or Taranis once it gets under your guns.
What exactly a ship can and can not handle is to a large portion up to the fittings on both sides and the circumstances of the fight you are in.
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Kensai Assassin
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Posted - 2010.09.21 14:20:00 -
[9]
Hey all,
Thanks for the helpful advice and reasons!
So To clarify while I may be a pvp noob I do respect your thoughts and now i see what you meant by the Navy Omen being better! So I deeply apologize flaming you for that!
So if you all are saying that the drone day is far more important because it will give me a measure of safety vs. Frigs and Smaller hull ships:
- The Sacrilege should be the better 1 of the 3 (Navy Omen, Zealot) - Larger Drone bay - T2 Resists etc etc
I guess this is some great data!
So then what about this?
Absolution vs. Sacrilege???
That would probably be a better choice.
Also yes, I was refering to Core Type Mod's thank you for spotting my Noobishness!
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Mutant Caldari
Caldari Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.09.21 14:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kensai Assassin Hey all,
Thanks for the helpful advice and reasons!
So To clarify while I may be a pvp noob I do respect your thoughts and now i see what you meant by the Navy Omen being better! So I deeply apologize flaming you for that!
So if you all are saying that the drone day is far more important because it will give me a measure of safety vs. Frigs and Smaller hull ships:
- The Sacrilege should be the better 1 of the 3 (Navy Omen, Zealot) - Larger Drone bay - T2 Resists etc etc
I guess this is some great data!
So then what about this?
Absolution vs. Sacrilege???
That would probably be a better choice.
Also yes, I was refering to Core Type Mod's thank you for spotting my Noobishness!
/facepalm Please tell me you are a troll. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee. Yeah I am a pirate. What are you gonna do about it? Killboard link is not allowed to be used in a signature.Applebabe
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Salient
Caldari APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2010.09.21 17:46:00 -
[11]
*is headed back to FW ASAP
ut tensio sic vis |
ShahFluffers
Gallente Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2010.09.21 19:10:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kensai Assassin Hey all,
Thanks for the helpful advice and reasons!
So To clarify while I may be a pvp noob I do respect your thoughts and now i see what you meant by the Navy Omen being better! So I deeply apologize flaming you for that!
Apology accepted. Just understand that many people in here are jaded and bitter due to the many threads of EFT warrioring and field testing. We have patience... just don't push it.
Originally by: Kensai Assassin
So if you all are saying that the drone day is far more important because it will give me a measure of safety vs. Frigs and Smaller hull ships:
- The Sacrilege should be the better 1 of the 3 (Navy Omen, Zealot) - Larger Drone bay - T2 Resists etc etc
I guess this is some great data!
So then what about this?
Absolution vs. Sacrilege???
That would probably be a better choice.
...
not to say that the Sacrilege is bad... but it suffers from issues similar to the Zealot... only in reverse. As a short range brawler against 1 or 2 enemies, it's a BEAST. However, the Sac is SLOOOOOOWWWW (it can be easily kited by faster ships), is best used with HAMs (which makes it strictly a short range fighter), and requires you to commit to a fight with no chance of escape should things go bad. In effect... it is the Anti-Zealot.
Also, I must point out... T2 ships are not necessarily superior to T1 ships. A T1 Harbinger for instance, can rip apart a Zealot and then some. It can also be refit to do quite a few roles whereas the Zealot is limited to "at range" fighting or being in a logistics heavy gang.
The reason many in here recommend you start your PvP career in "cheap" ships is not [just] to save ISK, but because T1 ships are more flexible in their fittings and give you an idea on what roles you wish to go into. Once you feel that you have the tactics down and are aware of all their risks and benefits, you can then specialize in a certain area (i.e. go T2).
Again, the Navy Omen may not have the extra armor, the T2 resists, or the extra bonuses that the Sacrilege or the Zealot have... but it IS more flexible in what roles you can fit it for. Want to make it into a super-buffered cruiser that can still fit medium weapons? Want to make it into a high resistance, speedy, nano-boat? How about a medium range sniper that frigates will hesitate against because they know you have a drone bay and a utility high?
I should also note that "high value" ships like the Zealot, Abso, Sac, and Navy Omen will give seasoned PvPers a major chubby... especially when they are solo (i.e. they will hunt you down relentlessly). Even in gangs you will not be safe and should consider yourself the primary target (especially so if you're flying the most expensive ship in your gang). _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.09.21 22:16:00 -
[13]
Edited by: King Rothgar on 21/09/2010 22:17:57 My advise is the harbinger for performance reasons. The fact that they are dirt cheap is simply an added bonus. The harbinger, like most of the BC's, can engage a huge variety of targets. You can go after anything and everything from a frigate all the way up to a capital. You can't necessarily solo the bigger stuff, but you are combat effective. Throwing an inty at a carrier is a waste of a perfectly good inty for example while throwing a carrier at an inty is just going to get you laughed at as he warps off. The harbinger can go for both to an extent.
The harbinger has a number of advantages over the other ships you are looking at. It has more dps and more tank than either the navy omen or zealot. It isn't as mobile but it's mobility is sufficient to keep up with most medium weight gangs. It also has 4 midslots unlike the absolution, as such it can fit the magic 4 midslot mods (mwd, point, web, cap injector). It can engage targets effectively from 0m to 24km (t2 warp disruptor range). If you can point it, you can kill it basically.
As with most subcapitals, it's best to buffer tank. With 3x trimarks, a 1600mm plate, DCII and 2x EANMII's you can expect around 75k EHP as a base. Throw in a slave set and you'll jack that up to over 100k EHP. Throw in an armor gang link and you'll start out tanking most BS's (most have neither slaves nor gang bonuses). That also leaves you with 2 midslots to play with, unless baiting, you'll want at least one heatsink. Most people go with a pair of them but I like having a medium armor rep there. It makes it much easier (and cheaper) to rep after a fight and it does negate around 150 dps overloaded.
It's drone bay is something that also adds to it's versatility. You can fit the basic 5x medium scout drones for dps or you can fit medium ECM drones to reduce incoming dps or grant some GTFO ability. Alternatively you can throw 10x lights in there of varying types for swatting frigates. The ship also has a utility high slot. I advise a remote armor rep or a medium neut.
I'm assuming a full t2 fit with all of this but if you absolutely must burn isk for no reason, then I recommend a republic fleet warp disruptor, fed navy web, and imperial navy EANM's and heatsinks. I do consider fitting it like that foolish however. The performance boost is insignificant in it's role and the fact is, money is always an issue.
The thing is, you're a noob. I don't care how much SP you have, you're still a noob. There is a 99% chance that you're going to get blown up in the first hour of being in low sec. And it's going to be like that for a while. You'll go broke very quickly if you fly around in expensive **** all the time.
Faction and deadspace gear does have a place in pvp. I have a stupidly high income in game so isk isn't an issue really but even I use it sparingly. The question is not does it make it better, it's how much better? I don't put faction points on my BS's but I do on my arazu's. The ships themselves cost about the same, the reason for the faction point on the arazu is because it's a tackle ship that get's a big bonus to them. The BS's are not tackle ships and don't get a bonus, as such it makes little sense to put anything other than a basic point on them.
BS's are however tanky and ganky ships, so faction heatsinks and EANM's are something I consider. I generally stock 2 general types of ships (includes all ship sizes), throw away and nicer ones. The throw away's are pure t2 fits, the nicer ones have sensible faction/deadspace gear fitted. Which I use is situational.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
David Devant
Gallente CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.09.23 10:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: David Devant on 23/09/2010 10:11:15 I would really recommend an Absolution. Join up with the Imperial Crusade and wander around solo for a while. All you'll find is Minmatar rifters which you can easily kill. Definately worth investing in expensive tanking mods as well. I shouldn't think you'll ever loose them in an embarassing fashion and line my wallet in the process. Nope. Definately not.
Seriously though, you cannot buy EvE. Experienced players will destroy you no matter what you spend. Give your money to starving children in Africa and fly Harbingers.
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.09.23 19:14:00 -
[15]
That's it really. I wasn't going to say it at first but it does sound like he's trying to simply buy his way to victory. That may work in most MMO's but most MMO's consist of simply left clicking as fast as possible. The only real question is level and gear quality in them. That just isn't how eve works.
But that said, I still advise the harbinger. It's a very versatile and solid performer. I can fly the entire amarr line (excluding the titan) along with most of the minmatar line of ships and easily afford any of them. I fly the harbinger because it's good, not because I can't afford something else.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Annie Anomie
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2010.09.24 20:10:00 -
[16]
If you have to ask, you're not going to get the use out of any of the shinies you're mentioning in this thread tbh. Fly BCs.
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DL SKELTON
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Posted - 2010.12.10 17:17:00 -
[17]
Originally by: King Rothgar But that said, I still advise the harbinger. It's a very versatile and solid performer. I fly the harbinger because it's good, not because I can't afford something else.
sooo...whats a good FW fit and tactic for this harbinger? (i too am a noob) |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.10 17:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Mutant Caldari
And here we have a classic example of why selling PLEX and being purely a carebear is a GOOD thing.
fixed. I hear that Heydieles is a good place to try out new faction fit solo pvp ships.
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Dark Pangolin
Caldari Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
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Posted - 2010.12.10 18:49:00 -
[19]
Really?!? Cause I heard that same thing?! If I bring my all True Sansha Phantasm will help me test it?
I suggest you start with an omen and work your way up from there. Harbinger is also a good choice. Lean how to fight first then throw ISK at it. Be aware that even if you to EVERYTHING right....you will still die sometimes. Zealots and Sacs are tasty ships, but in FW they are just sexy targets unless you have a good gang backing you up. Basically all the solo pwn mobiles tend to be dual-prop/super speedy. Excellent GTFO ability defines most solo ships over, DPS, Tank, etc. (Cynabal, Vagabond, Dramiel all these things have speed in common).
Having said that I would go with a Curse over the Zealot or Sac or Navy Omen :)
my 2 ISK
P.S. I really really hope I get someone to help me out with that Phantasm test in Heyd...
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Xolornem Srrpep
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Posted - 2010.12.10 21:30:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Xolornem Srrpep on 10/12/2010 21:30:37 Fly battlecruisers. HACs are super-specialized and you will quickly find yourself in a situation they are useless in.
Keep in mind you're fighting other humans who are likely much better than you - they'll know which places to poke and how hard to pop you easily.
Don't fit anything above T2 mods on FW-bound ships.
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Sid Zero
State Wh0re Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.13 05:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Dark Pangolin
I suggest you start with an omen and work your way up from there. Harbinger is also a good choice. Lean how to fight first then throw ISK at it.
^ This.
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Jaskey
Amarr 0beron Construct Black Core Alliance
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Posted - 2010.12.13 08:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Widemouth Deepthroat Ashimmu
Bless you
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.12.13 08:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mutant Caldari
Originally by: Kensai Assassin Hey all,
Thanks for the helpful advice and reasons!
So To clarify while I may be a pvp noob I do respect your thoughts and now i see what you meant by the Navy Omen being better! So I deeply apologize flaming you for that!
So if you all are saying that the drone day is far more important because it will give me a measure of safety vs. Frigs and Smaller hull ships:
- The Sacrilege should be the better 1 of the 3 (Navy Omen, Zealot) - Larger Drone bay - T2 Resists etc etc
I guess this is some great data!
So then what about this?
Absolution vs. Sacrilege???
That would probably be a better choice.
Also yes, I was refering to Core Type Mod's thank you for spotting my Noobishness!
/facepalm Please tell me you are a troll. Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Please be joining the caldari side in fw!
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.13 10:27:00 -
[24]
Zealot = paper zniper Absolution = lol harbinger with a tank
Get a harbinger tbh
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
Hra Neuvosto
The 8th Order
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Posted - 2010.12.13 11:39:00 -
[25]
Made two Pith fits for you to try out.
For this one you need a buddy to warp disrupt your enemies: [Absolution, pith] Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Damage Control II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Imperial Navy Medium Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Corelum A-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Imperial Navy Heavy Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M Imperial Navy Heavy Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M Imperial Navy Heavy Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M Imperial Navy Heavy Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M Imperial Navy Heavy Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M Imperial Navy Heavy Pulse Laser, Dark Blood Multifrequency M True Sansha Medium Energy Neutralizer
Medium Core Defence Operational Solidifier II Medium Core Defence Operational Solidifier II
'Augmented' Hobgoblin x5
This one can go solo:
[Sacrilege, pith] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Co-Processor II Damage Control II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Domination Warp Scrambler Dark Blood Medium Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 800 Gistum A-Type 10MN MicroWarpdrive
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Torrent Assault Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Torrent Assault Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Torrent Assault Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Torrent Assault Missile Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Dread Guristas Torrent Assault Missile Imperial Navy Small Energy Transfer Array
Medium Core Defence Operational Solidifier II Medium Core Defence Operational Solidifier II
'Augmented' Hobgoblin x3
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Angel Rodriguez
Caldari Heretic Academy
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Posted - 2010.12.13 11:55:00 -
[26]
mkayy , yea all those answers above me are all correct ! ...now on a more serious note , where exactly is that you are planing no pvping ?????
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Ava Starfire
Minmatar Nordanverdr Modr
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Posted - 2010.12.13 13:28:00 -
[27]
I recommend you fit up whatever your wallet will allow and come down to Evati. I will happily help you test and tweak your fit, for no charge, simply because I feel the Amarr FW needs more people like you helping in the fight against us simple, ungrateful, slow-witted slaves.
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Kalle Demos
Amarr Hysteria Nexus
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Posted - 2010.12.13 13:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hra Neuvosto
[Absolution]
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
Originally by: Kool StoryBro <---
Originally by: CCP Spitfire Spam post removed.
Random forum moments ftw |
Sean Faust
Gallente Point of No Return Waterboard
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Posted - 2010.12.20 15:44:00 -
[29]
Zealot is a ship with a very very pointed role. It inflicts high DPS at range vs. targets that other people have tackled. It does not have the ability to solo and it is completely and totally helpless vs. any frigate that has managed to get up in its face and start orbiting it at <2500m due to lack of a drone bay and lack of utility high slots. It has one job and in order for it to do its job well you must be flying in a coordinated fleet with proper support ships (tacklers, recons, logistics, etc).
Absolution, like all field command ships, is more of a straightforward gank-and-tank ship. It does not have the range of the zealot, but it offers superior DPS by way of a 6th turret and a drone bay that can field a full wave of light drones. The latter plus its utility high slot mean its not helpless vs. frigates like the Zealot is. It also has an excellent armor tank. It's simply a more-well rounded ship. It functions better in smaller gangs where you may not have a fully equipped fleet backing you up. It is also far superior for solo, however it still struggles with many targets as it is easily kited due to lack of web (any decent fit uses the third mid for a cap booster).
Honestly the fact that you aren't yet familiar enough with game mechanics to be able to see the advantages of a Navy Omen over either of these ships and why they would especially apply to FW says to me that you don't have any business flying these ships yet. Fly their t1 counter parts (Omen/Harbinger) to recognize what they can and can't do well before you start asking about which one you should fly.
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Idicious Lightbane
Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.12.20 16:13:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kensai Assassin What?! Navy Omen vs Zealot?
Hmm okay so i checked it out....More armor resists....T2
....More raw speed....1 less high-slot yes....but why am I fighting a Dram? I am not the type of person that just runs in an shoots....I pick and choose my fights..i do not want to spam for kill mails...rather have less kill mails but not being stupid bought it.
Let me give some more information about myself and my topic maybe....it might help out a bit:
- Money...dont give a **** bout isks...I buy Plex's and sell em every 2-3 days - I have a mission carebear alt in a shiny Machariel that also spams missions level 4's with my brother in law and we split the money
So basically....money doesnt matter to me
- I will be fitting any ship with Pith - typed items with PROPER FITTINGS for that ship.
Honestly I really appriciate the help every! I know I sound like a noob. And I dont HAVE any kill mails yet...but I am not green to the game but I would love to really hear from the more experts.
Maybe the Navy Omen IS better and if so I deeply apologize...if it is please tell me what I am missing or not seeing there.
If you want to solo the Navy Omen will outperform the Zealot, Zealot has NO defense against frigates that get under its guns, a T1 fit rifter will kill a zealot once it gets in a tight orbit. Nomen can fit a Neut + flight of small drones which will get you out of tight situations. Zealots however are amazing gang ships and will vastly outperform the Navy Omen in that role, it all depends what you want to do. For solo stuff I'd say abso lacks mobility, but could be used if flown properly. Lastly you are going to loose that ship so I would not fit any of them up with A-type stuff, T2 and vanilla faction cruisers (cheaper than Zealot actually the Nomen) aren't worth the cost of the faction mods (unless you have a crapload of isk to burn and don't care about loosing it by the hundreds of millions.
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