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Emma Royd
Caldari Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.21 18:47:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Emma Royd on 21/09/2010 18:57:17 **gah edit cos I failed to put anything in the message**
I thought I'd have a play with PI on the test server since it had just mirrored, and I'm stuck.
I'm looking at a Plasma planet, installed an elite command center roughly between 3 reasonable deposits of Noble Metals, placed an extractor on each of the deposits, and a storage thing.
Created links between the extractors and storage, went to each extractor, scanned and a new interface came up that I'd not seen before, with a graph thing, so I moved the 2nd little 'blob on a wire' to a slightly better position, carry on, clicking submit as and when.
It looks ok (well ok compared to how I think it used to look before this latest patch), but everything is in edit mode, if I try and view a different planet, I get a popup "You currently have unsubmitted edits. Exiting planet mode will cancel those edits. Do you want to proceed?", but how do I submit the edits, I've tried pressing submit and nothing seems to happen.
If I look at the extractors, it says I'm extracting Noble Metals, but the current cycle is showing Inactive (Edit Mode)
What am I doing wrong?
Thx +_+
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity |
cpu939
Gallente Unknown Soldiers The Spire Collective
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Posted - 2010.09.21 18:56:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Emma Royd
yes i must agree well said 0101011 001101111 011011000 110000101110100 01101001011011000 1100101001000000 1001110011000010 11101000111010101 11001001100101
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Emma Royd
Caldari Fusion Enterprises Ltd Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2010.09.21 18:58:00 -
[3]
Originally by: cpu939
Originally by: Emma Royd
yes i must agree well said
Yeah yeah, I know, my fat fingers pressed Enter without me telling them :s +_+
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity |
Makko Gray
Gallente Nexus Aerospace Corporation The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.09.21 21:13:00 -
[4]
I think it is still a work in progress, though I'm liking how it is coming on. Instead of individual extrators you have an extrator control unit and each item you online acts like a seperate extrator (and uses it's own powergrid and cpu). You select the resource you want to mine for the unit/group and use the slider to select area, which seems to directly correlate with cycle time.
It's more thought based than clicked based which is what I like, but does seem a little buggy, I experienced problems trying to submit my set-up but then also experienced problems looking at the item information on the noctis so am just waiting for a future update to the test server before having another go.
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ichn
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Posted - 2010.09.22 06:37:00 -
[5]
I love it so far. A few questions though,
what does the graph mean?
For the "estimated units harvested", is that per cycle or total? I assume it's per cycle but it's hard to tell
Currently the max running time is 25 hours (30 cycles*50 minutes per cycle). This will be extended, won't it? I want to run my planets at maximum laziness.
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Interscene
The Maverick Navy
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Posted - 2010.09.22 07:48:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Interscene on 22/09/2010 07:48:26 I bug reported a few things on this, most of which came back filtered as "known to be defective."
The PI just doesn't work right now after the point of attempting to submit extractor plans, you arn't doing anything wrong. You can set the ECU up, you just can't get it to build its extractors. I think I prefer the new system over the old as it automatically creates a hub and manages the CPU/Grid in an interesting manner.
I believe the graph is showing the diminishing returns of running too many extractors overlapping the resource area, the right of the graph dips considerably if there's overlap so I think the left side shows resource average extraction at the center of each extractors spot and each bar represents an incremental distance.
I don't think anything we see is currently 'finished.'
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.09.22 09:37:00 -
[7]
Actually, the change in the scanning and extraction mechanic is not clear.
What we see on sisi has obviously little to do with the final product in terms of gameplay. There should be some cost in setting your extraction range large, or in placing an extractor far from your extraction control, otherwise routing and prospecting will become quite stupid (they're going to change this for sure).
I also think that the depletion rate and the way the resource map changes should be more dynamical than what is on TQ right now.
Setting up the most efficient network of extractors on TQ right now is quite a challenge, I hope that in the new vision this depth will be present as well.
No idea about what the graph stand for.
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Norath84
The Executives IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.22 10:51:00 -
[8]
I had a look on the test server and I realy hope they are FAR from done
image
the max 40x30 is a error i think it was 50x30
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.22 14:17:00 -
[9]
Played with new extraction interface a bit... aside from lack of clearance, I have big concerns about it's utility. And all these fancy effects just adding to frustration, denying any meaning to emerge. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Rico Lobo
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Posted - 2010.09.22 20:20:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Rico Lobo on 22/09/2010 20:20:56 Nor you need to add "and graphs" to the list of things to suffer with the dots and lines. . .
honestly this it test, its not finished, and hopefully they have an explination for just what the frell is going on because none of it makes sence. I can do a layout that with 10 extractors pulls LESS than one extrator with the same feildsize?
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Rokhy Bhalboah
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Posted - 2010.09.23 00:05:00 -
[11]
These extractor control units concern me on one point: how will existing extractors be 'converted' into the new system? The differing paradigms make a straightforward conversion impossible.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.23 00:58:00 -
[12]
Given there trackrecord with PI so far, I would guess that the plan is to bascialy delete all exising units and start over.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
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Posted - 2010.09.23 01:06:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rico Lobo Nor you need to add "and graphs" to the list of things to suffer with the dots and lines. . .
If I don't need something, I simply omit it.
Quote: honestly this it test
This. If we don't point all flaws in the system before they went live... they will went live. One of such examples would be routing setup in PI. The amount of mateial routed is so much meaningless, it shouldn't be present at first. Sadly it was need so much work to remove, they just made up a bridge tweaking the route each time you setup a new extraction cycle.
Quote: its not finished, and hopefully they have an explination
If something as simple as digging up resources is need an explanation to me, it failed miserable already. -- Thanks CCP for cu |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.23 01:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Interscene Edited by: Interscene on 22/09/2010 07:48:26I don't think anything we see is currently 'finished.'
I would have to say what we have now constitues "not even bloody started"
shifting a pin over a few inches results in the net yeild, whatever its suposed to represent (yeild per pin? total yeild per cycle?) to change in semingly random manor, and often skyrocketing up in yeild when I slide the pin off the edge of a local node to where suposedly the yeild is -0-
shifting pin radius seems to drop then rise again then drop depending on the layout.
Deleting a pin (map with no pins overlaping) that is in the heart of a node where its suposedly the ritchest part of the hotspot will sometimes result in the yeild doubleing
then I checked, it seems that sometimes deleing pins at randome will sometimes cause the yeild to go up, sometimes to go down, and sometimes to remain unchanged.
shifting pins around to vary yeild is a bit of an exercise in frustration, you see the yeild seemingly shoot up almost 1000 points from the original, but try to skootch it back to where you got that result can sudeenly result in your "output" droping,sometimes all the way down to 1.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.23 01:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 23/09/2010 01:55:29 ok im calling it a night on Sisi, hopefully they release a patch on it so it actualy works because right now its BBB.
Im suspecting that the Idea that they have is that they are trying to get away from "ICS" type layouts that you see now. if so thats good. but theres no real feedback and the game seems to be overreacting to how you lay out the map.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.23 02:07:00 -
[16]
ok let me do a walkthrough on what I think is SUPOSED to be happening
Visualise the heatmap as being made out of thickend Jello
Visualise each actual extractor node as being a very sticky Que ball whos size and weight are both increasable
bascialy make the Extracter node larger, it depresses a larger area around itself
however what It looked like I was seeing had me wondering if somehow it was displaceing (bascialy lowering the jellow level in the ring around it like it was suposed to, but then raising the "Jello" where that specific node was not at)instead of just depressing the "jello" of the heatmap.
That would probably explain some of the wonkyness I saw going on, especialy when I put a extractor out of the way where the heatmap did not think there was suposed to be anything.
ok now im frustrated AND hungry.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.09.23 10:53:00 -
[17]
Yes, there are still someà missing bitsà with the new extractors.
You can't actually finish the step of constructing the extraction points. The extraction point links take up no grid or CPU. The extraction points pull upà oh, about 20û30+ less than they should.
#2 is particularly funny ù it means links in general kind of lost their purpose. There's no reason not to bunch up all actual installations in a big ball roughly in the middle of where you're going to work, with minimum-length links between them, and then pull out the extractor pins to just about anywhere on the planet. On the gas planet I'm currently using on TQ, this alone would save me the space for another 2û3 extractors.
#3 is more of an "àinterestingà" kind of a problem, since the error seems so arbitrary. I duplicated as exactly as I could one of the installations I have on TQ with the new system, with hilarious results. Where one cluster of 5+ Base Metal extrators currently pulls up ~1600 units/15 minutes (32k per 5h) each, the exact same cluster in the exact same spot came up with a total ofà [drumroll] 240 units per 10 minutes (7200 units / 5h) for the entire cluster when tweaked to produce the absolute maximum possible. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Ari Chu
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Posted - 2010.09.23 19:28:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Ari Chu on 23/09/2010 19:36:44 I've been toying with SISI as well. The new system has potential - but it's not complete enough to really say how it will end up.
One Suggestion: allow mouse wheel to change the extraction area size.
EDIT: Originally by: Tippia The extraction points pull upà oh, about 20û30+ less than they should.
Actually, this isn't really true. The reason that you are getting such low returns is because your pins are all piled up on top of each other. If you spread them out a lot more, you will get much higher returns. Presumably if multiple players stack on top of each other, it will have the same results. In short - popular planets won't be nearly as popular. ---
"The Galaxy is only as big as you make it." - presumably Eve Game Designers. |
Raw Matters
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.24 12:40:00 -
[19]
My impression of the PI system on Sisi is: you are making it way to complicated.
Basically what we need to do is place an extractor somewhere, define where the resources should be routed to and what the facilities are supposed to fabricate. So what do I have to worry with time-scales, programs, link-limits and all that stuff?
Let's take the following situation of a "much nicer" PI system: I as a player place an extractor on an area I'd like to extract resources from. I scale an extraction circle around the extractor to balance resources extracted vs. power-grid/CPU usage. Once I am done I build a facility and link the extractor to the facility. As it if obvious from input what I'd like to produce, the facility automatically selects the appropriate schema. If I link different input to the facility, it will display a warning until I remove all but one set of input that matches a schema.
The link tells me the usage percentage and if the facility can take that much input during a cycle or if I can add further input. Let's say I overload the facility and the line turns red and displays a "250% Usage" warning. Now I build another facility, link it to the extractor and immediately both lines go to "125% Usage" warning, as it is obvious how much resources I want to have the facility to process: as much as it can.
Now I can build a 3rd facility and linking that to the extractor would have the facilities run at either "75% 75% 75%" or at "100% 100% 50%" based on a slider on the links itself or on the extractor. Alternatively I can build a silo and link that to the extractor and the links turn to 100% / 100% for the facilities and 50% for the silo. And if I connect that silo to the facilities, they will process as long as the extractor is running and otherwise check if they can grab the input from the silo.
You can continue that with advanced facilities as well, as they have only two possible states: the input corresponds to exactly one schema or the facility displays an error icon, telling me to fix the input. Facilities could even check the silo they are linked to if it contains the required resources for a selected schema and automatically route those to themselves if resources are available. Put a nice icon on top of the facilities and extractors to tell me what they do and I understand what my colony does at the first look.
In the end we would have basically the same system (Extractor->Facility->Spaceport) but you can easily set it up without having to study several guides to figure out what the hell the devs want me to do to get this running. ;)
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Mayblene
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Posted - 2010.09.25 08:17:00 -
[20]
I relish the coming abilities to upgrade colonies without rebuilding and being able to move around extractors. I think one of the other greatest improvements that can be made is to get rid of the need to double-click or multiple stages of interacting with the UI to accomplish menial tasks. I would much rather see a radially based interface similar to flying a ship where you click-hold to get some options. The idea is to make it more fluid rather than needing all the clicks.
Also making the choice of extractor run time correctable without having to cancel all build orders and starting over. Getting to the 15th extractor and double-clicking a 3 day run instead of 24hrs shouldn't make you have to start all over again.
I don't know how much leeway there is but I'd like to push for one more bit of flexibility: import/export w/o being in the same system. I'd be fine with a skill like the trade or production lines where you get a progressively expanding range up to region-wide control.
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.25 13:30:00 -
[21]
So, I read this thread... Got all excited and fired up SISI.
I'm not seeing any of this. Did they revert the changes?
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Tarin Majagh
Caldari Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
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Posted - 2010.09.25 14:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Zagdul So, I read this thread... Got all excited and fired up SISI.
I'm not seeing any of this. Did they revert the changes?
Until the end of the weekend, we're running on a roughly TQ age build, so no new stuff back until Monday. -- Quantum Forge |
Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.09.26 05:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tarin Majagh
Originally by: Zagdul So, I read this thread... Got all excited and fired up SISI.
I'm not seeing any of this. Did they revert the changes?
Until the end of the weekend, we're running on a roughly TQ age build, so no new stuff back until Monday.
Sweet, thanks :)
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Haytred
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Posted - 2010.09.26 15:16:00 -
[24]
From the linked pic and descriptions here, I don't see how these changes are good. PI as it stands now is tedious and doesn't make much sense to those getting into (but does reward later once you figure out it's nuances.) These changes seem to make it more complicated and less automatic? (They are bringing the 96 hour point down it seems.) Doing 4 clicks per extractor per cycle on multiple planets, plus hauling, import and export several times a week is getting a bit monotonous. Plus the whole, "do it over completely if you need to change or upgrade your skill," needs a re-think by CCP.
As a whole I would like to see: Less clicking More intuitive Worth the time per day that they take
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.09.27 19:41:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 27/09/2010 19:47:15 Edited by: Steve Thomas on 27/09/2010 19:42:36 right now we seem to be stuck at the "bull**** I made up so it looks like we actualy did something so the clueless boss is happy. . . but its broken" stage, so for now dont worry about it.
honestly If I can go from 9,999,999 production from stacking 9 of my pins as close to ontop of eachother as I did and the 10th way off the hotmap, to playing "wave the dots" to end up with 3621 production with a spread out layout on the same extractor node. . .then somethings obviously broken.
but give it a few days, eventualy we will see the actual prototype and not the current "mockup" we have now
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* a (Long) Guide to Pi
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:08:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Camios on 30/09/2010 18:09:09 Now (30.9 at 17.15) the graph in the prospecting window has a quite clear meaning. The new PI looks quite good actually.
Of course I know that this is not the final product, but I have some considerations about the current state of PI (apart that it does not work):
1. Right now you have no CPU-PG penalties for placing the extractor heads far away from you exctractor control units. This make routing stupid, and I bet it's going to change. 2. The extraction rates are quite lower than they are on TQ. I bet that those numbers are placeholders, but am I right? 3. The graph shows you that the extraction rate varies over time. It goes up and down with a 14-hour cycle (more or less), but it has a general decreasing mood. What is the goal of this mechanic/interface?In principle, it's good to see how the extraction rate is going to change so that I can react to it for a better profit, but there is a nonsense here: if I set my extraction range to maximum, I do it to forget about it and get back 14days later. So why should I care about extraction fluctuations? While I like graphs, I suspect that the graph gives you some useless info. But I haven't see yet how the graph evolves actually since I cannot install any program, so I will not judge the new system until I have completely seen what it works like.
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:20:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Raid''En on 30/09/2010 18:21:20 i still have the same problem than on the previous build with extractors (yeah i send a report), do someone find a way to avoid the "pindoesnothaveheadplaced" error message while trying to activate program ? ---------------- ** Wormhole Trading ** |
Sepi
Gamma Draconis Industries Eternus Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.09.30 18:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Raid'En Edited by: Raid''En on 30/09/2010 18:21:20 i still have the same problem than on the previous build with extractors (yeah i send a report), do someone find a way to avoid the "pindoesnothaveheadplaced" error message while trying to activate program ?
yep i got that, and reported it, seems a new one tonite didn't get it last time i logged on (just before sisi went down this time)
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Jiao Zelig
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:14:00 -
[29]
Good to see that they're changing the way extractors work, but this isn't the direction they should go.
First, you shouldn't have to choose between 5 levels of CCs, you should buy the basic level and after it is placed on a planet it would have an option to Upgrade (like planetary links) if you have the proper skill and pay the isk -- without losing your PI setup. Then, extractors should also have an ability to Upgrade (up to your current CC level), and upgraded extractors would require the CPU and PG of multiple extractors. I.E., a lvl 4 extractor would require the CPU and PG, and would mine as much minerals per cycle, as four extractors.
This would streamline the process of upgrading CCs, of setting up extraction, of clicking to survey, and of moving extractors (when they implement the moving hotspots).
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe
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Posted - 2010.09.30 19:51:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Camios on 30/09/2010 19:53:35
Originally by: Jiao Zelig Good to see that they're changing the way extractors work, but this isn't the direction they should go.
First, you shouldn't have to choose between 5 levels of CCs, you should buy the basic level and after it is placed on a planet it would have an option to Upgrade (like planetary links) if you have the proper skill and pay the isk -- without losing your PI setup. Then, extractors should also have an ability to Upgrade (up to your current CC level), and upgraded extractors would require the CPU and PG of multiple extractors. I.E., a lvl 4 extractor would require the CPU and PG, and would mine as much minerals per cycle, as four extractors.
This would streamline the process of upgrading CCs, of setting up extraction, of clicking to survey, and of moving extractors (when they implement the moving hotspots).
Log into Sisi please. Now CCs are upgradable without breaking the network, and extractors are "upgradable" too, just online more extraction heads and you're good to go. I think these are actually good changes.
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