Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
HeIIfire11
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 12:00:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Captain Merkin cant say I have ever approved of being able to use real life cash to advance your toon..
this should be restricted to players under 2 years of age
Right..because they've done so much for/in eve..gtfo
|
CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 12:38:00 -
[152]
Edited by: CyberGh0st on 23/09/2010 12:46:39
Originally by: Cupio Mortem Using PLEXes to change your name? Yes
Using PLEXes to erase your employment history? ******ed
Using PLEXes to buy SPs (which would be ludicrously easy to implement)? ******ed
Using PLEXes to respec existing skills? Yes
Okay, so you have no problems with microtransactions in general, only with a select few, and have no problem with the line we will cross if we are able to buy remaps with plex. ( The line between player only RMT and microtransactions ).
So please just acknowledge this and then we can agree to disagree ( I don't want any microtransactions, you can live with some of them ).
p.s. Player RMT is NOT THE SAME as Microtransactions
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 12:49:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 23/09/2010 12:51:07
Originally by: CyberGh0st Like I said, once people understand the difference between Limited regulated RMT between players ( current plex system ) and Microtransactions directly with CCP ( buying remaps with plex ), then we can have a discussion....
That is just it, a plex will NEVER represent a micro-transaction as long as it is capable of adding a full month to game-time .. that is a full-size, fully grown transaction, not micro by any definition. For it to qualify as micro-transaction the time added would be days or even hours.
Originally by: Buck Marui Regardless of how everyone feels about this idea, the most devestating effect it will have is that new players will feel they cannot be competitive unless they use PLEX, meaning they will leave, but the people who have no problem with using PLEX will stay.....
Thanks to RMT's this is how the game has always been, Plex-GTCs merely brought some of the black-market under CCP control. The market for remaps is not going to be very big by any stretch of the imagination. Once learning skills and implants are in place the benefit of remapping dwindles to near nothing .. a day or two per month of training at most. Where Plex-GTCs are 12x a year, the Remap will be 1-2x year at most if that ..
If anyone thinks that adding plex remaps will suddenly inject trillions of ISK, as was the case of Plex-GTC, into the game then you seriously overestimate the ingame effect of remaps.
|
CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 13:22:00 -
[154]
Edited by: CyberGh0st on 23/09/2010 13:25:12
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 23/09/2010 12:51:07
Originally by: CyberGh0st Like I said, once people understand the difference between Limited regulated RMT between players ( current plex system ) and Microtransactions directly with CCP ( buying remaps with plex ), then we can have a discussion....
That is just it, a plex will NEVER represent a micro-transaction as long as it is capable of adding a full month to game-time .. that is a full-size, fully grown transaction, not micro by any definition. For it to qualify as micro-transaction the time added would be days or even hours.
LOL are you for real? First of all it does not matter how big or small the packages are, that would be a subjective way of trying to describe the term microtransactions, the term, as been used in MMO's, is about buying packages of gameplay content or services directly from the company ( as opposed to pay a monthly fee, which buys the complete gameplay package ). But if you feel more comfortable by using the term macrotransactions, then that is fine with me as well
I don't want to have a discussion about semantics but about views and ideas and the difference between the current system ( redistribution of ingame wealth by using plex ) and the possible future system ( in addition to redistribution also the injection of ingame wealth from outside ).
We can also use the term Cash shop if you like that better, thats a place where you can buy ingame items and/or service with RL cash directly from the company.
The point is not really how big of an impact the remaps will have, but that the introduction of microtransactions ( err macrotransactions or cash shops ) will open the gates for more to come.
It is an ideologic line I do not wish to cross.
p.s. Paypal describes micropayments as 12$ not so far away of the 15$ for a plex. p.p.s. In addition to adding a full month gametime CCP wants to add a remap for plex, seems a smaller transaction to me p.p.p.s. RMT is not per definition a Microtransaction, becaus Microtransactions is used for transactions between Player and Company, while RMT can also be between Player and Payer.
Hope this clarifies it for you.
http://www.mmodata.net Favorite MMO's : DAoC Pre-TOA-NF / SWG Pre-CU-NGE |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 13:59:00 -
[155]
Originally by: CyberGh0st LOL are you for real?
How many years ago was the Plex-GTCs introduced? This is the very first feeler that CCP has send out since then .. and it, like Plex-GTCs, feels very much about improving service/convenience/choice. CCP's have not changed leadership and their vision remains the same as far as I am aware, so unless they have a bunch of Wall Street rejects using mindcontrol on them I neither see it nor fear it. If the "OMG ISK $RL FLOODGATE!" was coming it would have happened ages ago so fearing it now is irrational.
I case you didn't know, people can already buy whatever they damn well please with $RL through GTCs. Apart from noobs-in-faction and instant replacement of capitals it has not really have much impact on game other than giving people with minimal play-time a chance to try out the content no-lifers take for granted.
- 12 vs 15 = a 25% difference. That is bloody HUGE! - Are you willing to pay 3-400M ISK to 'save' a few days on a several month long queue? I sure as hell am not and I doubt anyone in their right mind is. - RMT, Real Money Trading. Illegal by the terms in the EULA. Has absolutely nothing to with Plex's other than in the context in which I mentioned it.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 14:13:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida - Are you willing to pay 3-400M ISK to 'save' a few days on a several month long queue?
It's not "a few days" ù it's a matter of training up to 40% faster than you would have otherwise done. On a queue that is "several months long" (say four) you're saving over a month. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Dawne Xi
Minmatar 3D Salvage and Acquisitions
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 14:40:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Dawne Xi on 23/09/2010 14:41:45 I like this idea, because now I can put together 4 to 8 month plans instead of spending weeks trying to figure out a 1 yr plan to validate a remap, only to discover 6 months into it, I need to train some other skills that are off plan and drag my yearly SP / HR average down.
Seriously you're talking about less than 7m SP a year difference in training from min SP/HR to max SP/HR (5-5 attributes, +5 implants, maxed learning vs 15-9 attributes, +5 implants, maxed learning). Or 17.3m / year vs 24.3 SP / year
|
Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Atomic Zeppelins BricK sQuAD.
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 15:11:00 -
[158]
Well there already are implants. If I buy all +5 implant I train faster, I could do it with a plex.
|
Luminak Narz
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 15:40:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida - Are you willing to pay 3-400M ISK to 'save' a few days on a several month long queue?
It's not "a few days" ù it's a matter of training up to 40% faster than you would have otherwise done. On a queue that is "several months long" (say four) you're saving over a month.
But so what? Why does it matter if people can now manipulate a game mechanic to train faster. I fail to see how this breaks apart the game. Unless your committed to the whole mantra the game mechanic has to exist in its current form forever. The individuals who fear the cash shop and micro-transactions probably have a more solid argument.
Also, this sort of refutes what you've been saying about attributes being irrelevant. A better way of saying it would be that those who are willing to buy PLEX with RL money, or very wealthy characters would now be able to manipulate attributes more frequently to their advantage. Personally, I agree with the other posts that predict only a few people would abuse this service, but who knows. I'd personally like to see more than 1 remap a year, because as it stands now, I'm kind of reluctant to even do a remap with the fear that I'll make a bonehead decision, and have 12 months of regret.
Either way, this has turned into a pretty interesting discussion. Even for my short American attention span (that's a shout out to you Cupio )
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 16:03:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Luminak Narz Why does it matter if people can now manipulate a game mechanic to train faster. I fail to see how this breaks apart the game.
"Breaks apart" is a bit strong, especially since it's only skill training, but as mentioned: it simply obsoletes a very fundamental game mechanic for no good reason (wellà yes, I understand that "giving CCP $$$ö is a good reason from their point of view). The only rationale for not just removing attributes from the game outright is that they hope to squeeze more money out of us ù other than that, the effect is much the same as if they just pinned everyone's base skill training at 19.5 SP/minute.
That's pretty much it: they're removing mechanics for no good reason. They're not broken. It doesn't solve or improve on anything. They just get kneecapped out of nowhere. That alone makes it questionable, but the fact that they're doing it on a per-player basis, depending on how much you're willing to pay them, makes it even worse.
Quote: Also, this sort of refutes what you've been saying about attributes being irrelevant. A better way of saying it would be that those who are willing to buy PLEX with RL money, or very wealthy characters would now be able to manipulate attributes more frequently to their advantage.
What's the difference? It makes the distinction between attributes and between skill categories disappear: no matter what you train, it will always be with 15+9 base attributes. It's the "no matter what" that is the key part here ù the attributes themselves no longer serve a purpose; their values will always be 15+9; they have, in effect, no relevance to how you train your skills.
Quote: Personally, I agree with the other posts that predict only a few people would abuse this service, but who knows.
Oh, I know I will personally abuse the **** out of it ù that's how I know it's such a bad idea. My very first thought upon reading about this was "hmmà how often would I need to remap to fit my flip-flopping skill training, and how much would that cost me?", which led to the answer "as often as I'd like", which in turn leads to the conclusion that the distribution of my 39 attribute points are no longer a factor in how fast I train my skills. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
|
Umino Iruka
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 16:23:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Umino Iruka on 23/09/2010 16:25:29 Hmmm no one is forcing u to use the service in the first place. People are just like little kids "OMG CCP CANT DO THIS AND THAT TO US sniff sniff" i mean seriously u old farts rather spend 2-3 years to play this game at its full value right? There will allways be people that will dissagree with these kinds of "features" but still i say its just a DAMN GAME. It's allready know that the training takes actualy REAL TIME to do a difference in anything right? So what people insinuate is that they like to wait like 1-3 years of traning and investing in a chars subs then to have a "free remap". NO ONE IS FORCING U TO USE IT. Just like the plex u can eather ignore it or use it. SIMPLE as that. People QQ to much about this.
|
Luminak Narz
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 16:42:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Tippia
What's the difference? It makes the distinction between attributes and between skill categories disappear: no matter what you train, it will always be with 15+9 base attributes. It's the "no matter what" that is the key part here ù the attributes themselves no longer serve a purpose; their values will always be 15+9; they have, in effect, no relevance to how you train your skills.
Quote: Personally, I agree with the other posts that predict only a few people would abuse this service, but who knows.
Oh, I know I will personally abuse the **** out of it ù that's how I know it's such a bad idea. My very first thought upon reading about this was "hmmà how often would I need to remap to fit my flip-flopping skill training, and how much would that cost me?", which led to the answer "as often as I'd like", which in turn leads to the conclusion that the distribution of my 39 attribute points are no longer a factor in how fast I train my skills.
Well, makes it 15+9 for those who always remap, which I don't think will always be the case.
And about the abuse issue: Fair enough, there will be those who constantly use it. Personally I don't see myself constantly doing that, even as a person with a pretty substantial disposable income (I'm far from being a starving college student). Then again, I haven't been in the game anywhere near as long as many of you, so I certainly have a more limited perspective. Maybe 3 years from now, I would be ponying up the cash every month to remap. But at this point, I doubt it.
|
Dan Grobag
Caldari Grobag's Family
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 16:42:00 -
[163]
Maybe it's for the chinese server ?
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 16:57:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Tippia It's not "a few days" ù it's a matter of training up to 40% faster than you would have otherwise done. On a queue that is "several months long" (say four) you're saving over a month.
Do you really think that people will drop 50IQ points for no apparent reason if this is implemented? Yes, you can get your scary 40% by going from one extreme to the next .. repeatedly. What PvP character has any reason to that? What PvE character has any reason to that? It will act as a stupidity tax on people who have yet to experience the glory that is EveMON. It will act as an ISK sink for old-timers when they min/max yet another alt for capital blob-fare. It will help the new player who drinks the kool-aid and believes that he is useless if not yadayada.
You say you'll abuse the hell out of it, but with what? How? Missing the Charisma based skills? That's a few months at max attributes/implants and then its back to perception .. if you want to pay 3-400M for that then go ahead, but what else? If you actually sat down and looked at what can be done with more frequent remaps you'd realise that the abuse you think you'll put it through is impractical at best.
|
Umino Iruka
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 17:04:00 -
[165]
Edited by: Umino Iruka on 23/09/2010 17:05:10 Seems people are offended that bad with this chance. Here's something that will relax u a bit.
Offence
|
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 17:07:00 -
[166]
Edited by: chatgris on 23/09/2010 17:10:31
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Tippia It's not "a few days" ù it's a matter of training up to 40% faster than you would have otherwise done. On a queue that is "several months long" (say four) you're saving over a month.
Do you really think that people will drop 50IQ points for no apparent reason if this is implemented? Yes, you can get your scary 40% by going from one extreme to the next .. repeatedly. What PvP character has any reason to that? What PvE character has any reason to that? It will act as a stupidity tax on people who have yet to experience the glory that is EveMON. It will act as an ISK sink for old-timers when they min/max yet another alt for capital blob-fare. It will help the new player who drinks the kool-aid and believes that he is useless if not yadayada.
You say you'll abuse the hell out of it, but with what? How? Missing the Charisma based skills? That's a few months at max attributes/implants and then its back to perception .. if you want to pay 3-400M for that then go ahead, but what else? If you actually sat down and looked at what can be done with more frequent remaps you'd realise that the abuse you think you'll put it through is impractical at best.
First off, I don't really like the term "abuse". If the game mechanic is there, use it!
I currently train on 1 year cycles. SP is more valuable to me than anything else in this game - that's why despite having the money, I don't have any HG implant sets since they only give a +3 attribute increase (I had a HG snake, slave and halo set sitting in my hangar for the longest time until I chose to sell them, because I couldn't bear to switch out of my +5's).
If this was available, I could see myself remapping every few months. 1-2B a year is quite affordable for me to train anything I wanted at max speed all the time.
The big issue here comes down to a cash shop (since you don't like the term microtransactions), not the proposed mechanic as I understand it.
|
Dalmont Delantee
Gallente Fidelis Discordia
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:01:00 -
[167]
I thought I would just mention something about plex supply (in my opinion)
A lot of posts have been looking at plex supply being fueled by demand, but plex supply is actually fueled by the demand for isk.
If there is something that a lot of people want to buy (and don't have the free isk) then the supply of plex goes up and the cost goes down. If there is nothing people want to buy or can get it easier from mission running or other means then the plex supply decreases and the cost goes up.
I've noticed this as the prices decreased before the last expansion as everyone was buying up lots of the PI stuff and then after its steadly increased in price, which in my opinion means supply has decreased.
As an example:
10 people buy plexes and put it on the market one after the other 300 mil 299 mil *soemone wants a quick sell* 250 mil, 249 mil etc etc
5 people buy plexes and put it on the market one after the other 300, 299, 298, 297, 296 etc etc.
Of course if demand was high the prices would stay more level, but if they demand is high and the supply low then prices would sky rocket!
Adding plex for attribute remap isn't a problem per say, but I think it could potentially cause massive inflation in plex costs if the supply isn't there - with supply being the demand for isk from people with the money to pay for plex's
Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons |
Barakkus
Ishukone Institute of Technology
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:20:00 -
[168]
I did a 524 day plan, then did an optimal remap for it and saved a whole 30 days off training
You people need to go outside more...step away from the computer and stop nerdraging over nothing.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:23:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Barakkus I did a 524 day plan, then did an optimal remap for it and saved a whole 30 days off training
It wasn't an optimal plan then, and as a result, not an optimal remap in the strictest sense ù just the best it could do under suboptimal circumstances.
Quote: You people need to go outside more...step away from the computer and stop nerdraging over nothing.
Understand what the rage is about before metanerdraging. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Barakkus
Ishukone Institute of Technology
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:26:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Barakkus I did a 524 day plan, then did an optimal remap for it and saved a whole 30 days off training
It wasn't an optimal plan then, and as a result, not an optimal remap in the strictest sense ù just the best it could do under suboptimal circumstances.
Quote: You people need to go outside more...step away from the computer and stop nerdraging over nothing.
Understand what the rage is about before metanerdraging.
Being contrary for the sake of being contrary isn't optimal.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
|
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:28:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Barakkus Being contrary for the sake of being contrary isn't optimal.
Ok. You're free to stop at any timeà v0v
Btw, what did your attributes look like after that "optimal" remap, and what's in that queue? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:35:00 -
[172]
PLEX for remaps, attributes, whatever microtransaction crap you want to call it? NOOOOOOOO!
<runs screaming into the night>
Syn Callibri Director Fleet Ops, 21st Eridani Lighthorse Keeper of the Blood Pact
|
Jerera
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:40:00 -
[173]
Anyone rembmbers when we COULDN'T remap ?
I'm against the idea, but I think some of you are overreacting. But yeah, you are obviously interested in my post because you're now reading my signature.
My English might be choppy - I'm not a native English speaker. |
Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:48:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Syn Callibri on 23/09/2010 19:49:52 Nah...thats not over reacting...
"EMORAGEQUIT...BWAHHHHHHHHH...QQ...TROLL...BOOHOO...I'LL TELL MOM...NO YOU CAN'T HAZ MY STUFFZ...I'LL SUE!"
...this is over reacting.
(Its ok, I don't speak english at all...I'm American.)
Syn Callibri Director Fleet Ops, 21st Eridani Lighthorse Keeper of the Blood Pact
|
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:51:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Barakkus Being contrary for the sake of being contrary isn't optimal.
Ok. You're free to stop at any timeà v0v
Btw, what did your attributes look like after that "optimal" remap, and what's in that queue?
I'm on a pure perc/wil remap right now and get about 500 SP/hr from it from when I wasn't remapped. So if someone were to remap every time they changed skills, they'd be limited to ~4M SP/year gain over me. Big freaking whoop.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:56:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Syn Callibri (Its ok, I don't speak english at all...I'm American.)
You can't be ù no American is that self-aware.
àbut that would mean that you aren't that self-aware, which makes it true. àbut that means ARGH!! PREJUDICE PARADOX OVERLOAD!!
ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Barakkus
Ishukone Institute of Technology
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 19:59:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Barakkus Being contrary for the sake of being contrary isn't optimal.
Ok. You're free to stop at any timeà v0v
Btw, what did your attributes look like after that "optimal" remap, and what's in that queue?
It really doesn't matter, the point being you will probably only see 1-2 days difference for every 30 days of training. Looking at a number of other plans where the remap is wildly different from what I have now, the most I save in a 30-40 day period is about 2 days.
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
rofl
edit: ah crap, dev account. Oh well, official rofl at you sir.
|
Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 20:03:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Syn Callibri on 23/09/2010 20:03:32
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Syn Callibri (Its ok, I don't speak english at all...I'm American.)
You can't be ù no American is that self-aware.
àbut that would mean that you aren't that self-aware, which makes it true. àbut that means ARGH!! PREJUDICE PARADOX OVERLOAD!!
lol
Syn Callibri Director Fleet Ops, 21st Eridani Lighthorse Keeper of the Blood Pact
|
Sieges
Gallente
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 21:07:00 -
[179]
Can't we remap once a year as it is now? And new characters get two remaps for free. I do not want to see micro-transactions in EVE nor a cash-shop.
|
Indimiel
|
Posted - 2010.09.23 21:40:00 -
[180]
One thing people seem to ignore in this scenario is that this creates a tangible benefit to the buyer (in terms of faster/more flexible skill acquisition), while bypassing the player market system. The comparison with PLEXes being sold to buy ships and implants is flawed in that PLEXes have a player-market-dictated value. In fact a PLEX is not guaranteed to get you anything under the current system other than play time. Under this new system it would be able to get you in-game benefits other than those your fellow players are willing to give to you, and that doesn't seem ok.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |