Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 .. 15 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2010.11.01 22:40:00 -
[361]
Originally by: helmut cheddar Still doesn' explain why Amarr get 2 combat capable ceptors (and still a tackle ceptor)...
Didn't you read what you quoted? Malediction is great as tackler but is absolute crap for combat .. best mixed-bag currently is the Stiletto due to its godly slot layout. New rocket will make Malediction harder to shake as drones are no longer enough, even WarriorIIs pop nice and fast with the improved rocks.
With that out of the way: Malediction is a competent combat boat when using dual-prop or AB. Mass increase of former prevents it from doing a good tackle job and AB-only is very limited in scope. You really shouldn't lose to one unless you are caught completely off-guard (ie. empty ship logistics/**** fit) or is brand new in space.
|
helmut cheddar
|
Posted - 2010.11.02 13:19:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: helmut cheddar Still doesn' explain why Amarr get 2 combat capable ceptors (and still a tackle ceptor)...
Didn't you read what you quoted? Malediction is great as tackler but is absolute crap for combat .. best mixed-bag currently is the Stiletto due to its godly slot layout. New rocket will make Malediction harder to shake as drones are no longer enough, even WarriorIIs pop nice and fast with the improved rocks.
sorry what ? AFAIK many ppl fly solo/combat maledictions, at least many many more than the complete lack of ppl flying solo/combat stilettos. I've seen quite a few close range maledictions and NEVER seen a close range stiletto in over 2 years in this game... where are you getting this info from ?
|
Lugalzagezi666
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 11:12:00 -
[363]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis EAF & AF are next up on our list for a future release, and that will probably also include renaming assault ships to frigates, been bugging us for a while that they were called ships for some reason.
Well, im pretty happy i wont see that 10k ehp/200 dps jag with falloff and tracking bonus too soon... /considering what happened with dram, i really believe this is going to happen/.
Originally by: Yankunytjatjara ...
You will still need web to deal good dps /and dictate range - to some extent/ so whole fit is pointless. But i agree that hawk needs cpu more than pg if its going to keep its shield boost bonus.
And malediction? You are wrong, it will be much better scram tackler than its now and very good dogfighter. And no inty is better than leto for lr tackle anyway...
|
Andrea Griffin
|
Posted - 2010.11.03 15:09:00 -
[364]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Caveat: I have not read all 12 pages of this thread. EAF & AF are next up on our list for a future release, and that will probably also include renaming assault ships to frigates, been bugging us for a while that they were called ships for some reason.
This makes me so incredibly happy that I would hug you and kiss you right now if I could. Is there a dev blog forthcoming on the changes you're considering? Fix Rockets in '08 '09 2010 2011 2012?! |
Kai Yuen
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 14:18:00 -
[365]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel Caveat: I have not read all 12 pages of this thread.
CCP: thank you for working on Rockets and the Hawk.
Could you please add two more bonuses to the Assault Frigates, as all T2 ships have.
Best, Apollo
EAF & AF are next up on our list for a future release, and that will probably also include renaming assault ships to frigates, been bugging us for a while that they were called ships for some reason.
Alright, I can't stay silent any longer. When you mentioned T2 close range ammo fixes I was hopeful, but now that you say EAF and AF are next on your list WHY IN THE HELL aren't hybrids? Why mess around with 2 multi-racial ship classes when you have an entire racial weapon line that's way out of sync with the rest of game, especially given the amazing buffs you gave to projectiles. EAF and AF don't need nearly as much help as hybrids do. Why not fix what needs fixing more rather than polishing the chrome on already viable ship classes?
|
Cannibal Girl
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 19:47:00 -
[366]
Edited by: Cannibal Girl on 04/11/2010 19:50:47
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: helmut cheddar Still doesn' explain why Amarr get 2 combat capable ceptors (and still a tackle ceptor)...
Didn't you read what you quoted? Malediction is great as tackler but is absolute crap for combat .. best mixed-bag currently is the Stiletto due to its godly slot layout. New rocket will make Malediction harder to shake as drones are no longer enough, even WarriorIIs pop nice and fast with the improved rocks.
With that out of the way: Malediction is a competent combat boat when using dual-prop or AB. Mass increase of former prevents it from doing a good tackle job and AB-only is very limited in scope. You really shouldn't lose to one unless you are caught completely off-guard (ie. empty ship logistics/**** fit) or is brand new in space.
Mass increase of what? Mass is only increased when those modules are turned on. Since you can't turn them both on at once, it's a non-issue. I've spent a LOT of time flying a dual-prop stilleto since the speed changes,and I can tell you, you don't lose any agility.
|
Cannibal Girl
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 19:57:00 -
[367]
Edited by: Cannibal Girl on 04/11/2010 20:08:17
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Explosion velocity is not directly translated to target velocity for damage scaling. A 1-1 ratio is not required for effect and since missiles always hit versus turret tracking which can miss, having a constant 70+ DPS beating down on a ship is a big no. We won't be returning to the days or rocket crows > rest. It is better if you jump onto sisi and try it out rather than doing paper exercises with too many false assumptions.
Hmm..well..if the Crow can't be greater than the rest, neither should the Taranis. Just saying. Maybe take the drone bay off of it and even things out with the other ceptors?
I think the Crow was always the only real threat to the Taranis as far as other ceptors went. After a couple of ninja rocket nerfs weakening the Crow (and Hawk) by reducing range, the speed/missile changes just shut it down. Glad that's finally getting fixed.
Seriously though, the Taranis now stands far out in front of the other ceptors with no real challengers.
edit: unless I'm jumping the gun, and the Crow is indeed going to once again be the rock to the Taranis' scissors.
|
Cannibal Girl
|
Posted - 2010.11.04 20:12:00 -
[368]
On the Hawk, wasn't it originally intended as a pve ship? The shield boost bonus works really well for that. Hoping it stays as is.
Not all ships have to be exactly the same. Not all ships SHOULD be exactly the same. That kind of thing is what makes other mmo's lame beside Eve. There's always going to be a push to make things easier to think with, make it so there's less that you have to learn, but many of us play this game exactly because it isn't easy. Homogeny sucks. Keep it away!!!!!
|
Duchess Starbuckington
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 17:51:00 -
[369]
But Canibal, haven't you seen the other nerf threads around? It's perfectly acceptable for one race to have ships that are the best in their class by a huge margin - as long as it's not Caldari _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
OT Smithers
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 18:16:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington But Canibal, haven't you seen the other nerf threads around? It's perfectly acceptable for one race to have ships that are the best in their class by a huge margin - as long as it's not Caldari
this
|
|
Duchess Starbuckington
|
Posted - 2010.11.05 22:05:00 -
[371]
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 05/11/2010 22:08:01 Let's look at it this way shall we:
Ishkur - hands down the best AF. Ridiculous pwnmobile of a ship. Where is the whining threadnought for this ship?
Zealot - best sniper HAC, superb armour hac, second only to Drake gangs in number. Where is the whining threadnought for this ship?
Curse - most powerful combat recon ship besides debatably the Rook and certainly a better solopwnmobile. Where is the whining threadnought?
Drake - The best battlecruiser for large fleets backed with an obscene number of logistics. Hang on, it's a Caldari ship. WHINE BRIGADE, ENGAGE.
Hawk - buffed to the point where it can take on Ishkurs and Jaguars and win - OMFG IT MUST BE OP. People are fine with Ishkurs being obscenely powerful for an AF, but god forbid Caldari should have one that matches or (gasp!) beats it. It should also be pointed out that vs larger ships, its raw dps isn't likely to be that impressive by frigate standards.
No doubt I've missed a few, but looking at the races of the above ships, I start seeing a pattern emerging here... _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2010.11.06 10:07:00 -
[372]
It's also slightly sad that people use the Minmatar theme of mobility to justify having the best frigates/cruisers etc., but refuse to accept the inevitable converse - that Minmatar BS and capitals must be therefore be weakest. They just whine "boost me, nerf you" on that too.
|
Warezmy Carr
Extortion Unlimited
|
Posted - 2010.11.06 20:03:00 -
[373]
Edited by: Warezmy Carr on 06/11/2010 20:06:58
Originally by: CCP Chronotis EAF & AF are next up on our list for a future release, and that will probably also include renaming assault ships to frigates, been bugging us for a while that they were called ships for some reason.
Does this go for the other 'ships' names too?
Assault Ships to Assault Frigates or Heavy Frigates? Electronic Attack Ships to Electronic Attack Frigates or Electronics Frigates? Heavy Assault Ships to Heavy Assault Cruisers or Heavy Cruisers? Recon Ships to Recon Cruisers? Command Ships to Command Battlecruisers? ----------
|
Frenis Tiwara
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 01:06:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 05/11/2010 22:08:01 Let's look at it this way shall we:
Ishkur - hands down the best AF. Ridiculous pwnmobile of a ship. Where is the whining threadnought for this ship?
Zealot - best sniper HAC, superb armour hac, second only to Drake gangs in number. Where is the whining threadnought for this ship?
Curse - most powerful combat recon ship besides debatably the Rook and certainly a better solopwnmobile. Where is the whining threadnought?
Drake - The best battlecruiser for large fleets backed with an obscene number of logistics. Hang on, it's a Caldari ship. WHINE BRIGADE, ENGAGE.
Hawk - buffed to the point where it can take on Ishkurs and Jaguars and win - OMFG IT MUST BE OP. People are fine with Ishkurs being obscenely powerful for an AF, but god forbid Caldari should have one that matches or (gasp!) beats it. It should also be pointed out that vs larger ships, its raw dps isn't likely to be that impressive by frigate standards.
No doubt I've missed a few, but looking at the races of the above ships, I start seeing a pattern emerging here...
A few things I see here....
For one thing, although the Ishkur is obviously the clear choice for fighting cruisers and above, it can be killed easily by any 2 week old noob in a rifter with a web. The counter for a hawk is what? A Vengeance?
Zealot is best choice for Ahac's, but I would take a Muninn 90% of the time over a Zealot to a sniper gang
Curse is likely the most potent choice for solo combat recons, but alongside the Pilgrim it is one of the worst choices for larger gangs. Caldari gets 2 good choices here for small gangs and fleets.
Drake is a good ship yes, but imo the whines are more about the fact that that drake gangs work at all (i.e. lag) rather than nerfing the Drake.
|
Jyngo
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 04:42:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Frenis Tiwara
For one thing, although the Ishkur is obviously the clear choice for fighting cruisers and above, it can be killed easily by any 2 week old noob in a rifter with a web.
Lol wut?
Anyway, I'm liking the rocket changes so far and the sooner CCP gets around to implementing them the better.
|
Kai Yuen
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 20:15:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 05/11/2010 22:08:01 Let's look at it this way shall we:
Ishkur - hands down the best AF. Ridiculous pwnmobile of a ship. Where is the whining threadnought for this ship?
Zealot - best sniper HAC, superb armour hac, second only to Drake gangs in number. Where is the whining threadnought for this ship?
Curse - most powerful combat recon ship besides debatably the Rook and certainly a better solopwnmobile. Where is the whining threadnought?
Drake - The best battlecruiser for large fleets backed with an obscene number of logistics. Hang on, it's a Caldari ship. WHINE BRIGADE, ENGAGE.
Hawk - buffed to the point where it can take on Ishkurs and Jaguars and win - OMFG IT MUST BE OP. People are fine with Ishkurs being obscenely powerful for an AF, but god forbid Caldari should have one that matches or (gasp!) beats it. It should also be pointed out that vs larger ships, its raw dps isn't likely to be that impressive by frigate standards.
No doubt I've missed a few, but looking at the races of the above ships, I start seeing a pattern emerging here...
Quoted for truth. Don't forget rifters as T1 frigates. Those are light years ahead of the rest. The fact that the kestrel might catch up threatens people because... well, it's caldari. This game needs to be renamed "Anti-Caldari Online" which this line of thinking.
|
Duchess Starbuckington
|
Posted - 2010.11.07 23:39:00 -
[377]
Fixed:
Let's look at it this way shall we: Rifter - the best t1 frigate, the standard by which all the others are judged against. Why has it been allowed to stay in this spot so long?
Ishkur - hands down the best AF. Ridiculous pwnmobile of a ship. Where is the whining threadnought for this ship?
Zealot - best sniper HAC, superb armour hac, second only to Drake gangs in number. Where is the whining threadnought for this ship?
Curse - most powerful combat recon ship besides debatably the Rook and certainly a better solopwnmobile. Where is the whining threadnought?
Drake - The best battlecruiser for large fleets backed with an obscene number of logistics. Hang on, it's a Caldari ship. WHINE BRIGADE, ENGAGE.
Hawk - buffed to the point where it can take on Ishkurs and Jaguars and win - OMFG IT MUST BE OP. People are fine with Ishkurs being obscenely powerful for an AF, but god forbid Caldari should have one that matches or (gasp!) beats it. It should also be pointed out that vs larger ships, its raw dps isn't likely to be that impressive by frigate standards.
No doubt I've missed a few, but looking at the races of the above ships, I start seeing a pattern emerging here... _________________________________
ROCKET STATUS: FIX IN PROGRESS... |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 08:49:00 -
[378]
I'm not convinced about the Ishkur and Curse there, but the rest are pretty standard. And you can add the Archon and Apoc to that and also anything related to the completely broken nature of tanking disciplines on the BS scale and larger.
Also, it's worth repeating that faster, more mobile ships need to be at a disadvantage to slower ships when tackled, because otherwise there's no reason to fly the slower ships. I'm looking at you, Rifter and Jaguar. The Jaguar point is particularly apt, relative to the Hawk, because of the kinetic damage.
|
Tsubutai
The Tuskers
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 10:01:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Gypsio III I'm not convinced about the Ishkur and Curse there, but the rest are pretty standard. And you can add the Archon and Apoc to that and also anything related to the completely broken nature of tanking disciplines on the BS scale and larger.
Also, it's worth repeating that faster, more mobile ships need to be at a disadvantage to slower ships when tackled, because otherwise there's no reason to fly the slower ships. I'm looking at you, Rifter and Jaguar. The Jaguar point is particularly apt, relative to the Hawk, because of the kinetic damage.
This is a silly oversimplification that ignores a huge swath of factors that makes ships effective in pvp. An active armor Myrm is faster than a plated Harbinger; are you really claiming that the Harbinger 'should' win if it winds up in scram range?
|
Yankunytjatjara
Amarr Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 13:03:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Kazzzi And maybe give the Punisher a launcher slot just to give Amarr newbies some more rocket options to play with. Regardless how effective it actually would be.
Or 3! It's the khanid AF base hull after all
And don't forget the tactical overview option for solo/small gangs: Ship Velocity Vectors |
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2010.11.08 14:04:00 -
[381]
Originally by: me
Originally by: Tsubutai Also, it's worth repeating that faster, more mobile ships need to be at a disadvantage to slower ships when tackled, because otherwise there's no reason to fly the slower ships. I'm looking at you, Rifter and Jaguar. The Jaguar point is particularly apt, relative to the Hawk, because of the kinetic damage.
This is a silly oversimplification that ignores a huge swath of factors that make ships effective in pvp. An active armor Myrm is faster than a plated Harbinger; are you really claiming that the Harbinger 'should' win if it winds up in scram range? How about a Mega or a torp Phoon versus an Apoc?
Yes, it's a colossal simplification. And yes, it obviously breaks down when comparing active tanks with buffers. But I used the term "disadvantage" in a very general sense, and I certainly didn't intend it to mean "automatically lose".
As a very general example, a fast frigate can use its superior mobility to better escape unfavourable situations and more easily tackle targets. This advantage should not be accompanied by a further advantage in tank 'n' gank once tackled - remembering of course that ease of application of damage within tackle range is influenced by mobility issues.
That doesn't mean that the slower frigate should automatically win. It should depend on fits (active vs buffer as you noted), pilot skill and SP. But it is inevitable that one ship must have an advantage, and I think that it would be wrong for that advantage to belong to the ship that already enjoys the advantage of superior mobility. The key is making sure that the advantage is of the correct magnitude - they're not frigates but I think that the Drake and (shield) Hurricane are well balanced here - the Drake's advantages in ease of fitting of tackle, EHP and DPS at range make up for the Hurricane's mobility advantage.
But what about, say, Rifter and Merlin? The Rifter is more mobile; the Merlin has more EHP and better DPS towards the edge of web range. Does the Rifter have a realistic advantage within tackle range in tank 'n' gank over the Merlin as well? If the Rifter has not only superior mobility, but also can reasonably expect to defeat the Merlin in a close-range fight, then I think there's a problem.
My point here isn't to answer that question, simply to pose it as an example of the thought processes that can contribute to the balancing process.
|
Guns nButter
Stormlord Battleforce Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2010.11.09 21:12:00 -
[382]
Umm...isn't this thread supposed to be about the rocket changes?
I haven't read the entire thread yet but their initial changes on page 1 seemed to still be obscenely gimp. 1 more damage per second than lights? wtf?
|
Kai Yuen
|
Posted - 2010.11.10 01:54:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Guns nButter Umm...isn't this thread supposed to be about the rocket changes?
I haven't read the entire thread yet but their initial changes on page 1 seemed to still be obscenely gimp. 1 more damage per second than lights? wtf?
That's because they are, but it is caldari. It's not allowed to be pvp worthy.
|
7'th Tactical
|
Posted - 2010.11.10 12:01:00 -
[384]
CCP you are saying that rockets always hit, while turret tracking makes it harder. If we take an all lvl 5 character into consideration (and thats what we all should do unless you wanna focus on early game) then even with this new changes there is no way that a Hawk will take out a Rifter. Me and my friends have runed several tests, + did a lot of lov/null sec pvp (all tranqulity) before those changes were announced and the results are like this: Rifter fit: [Rifter, Gank] Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Overdrive Injector System II
1MN Afterburner II J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S 150mm Light AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP S Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rage Rocket
Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I Small Core Defence Field Extender I
Hawk fit: Insert whatever you like, hell even make that 2 hawks as long as they are rocket fited. The rifter in this scenario never even got a scratch on its shields. With max skills on your tracking/optimal/fallof there is just no way you will loose, even againts 2 hawks >.< And you may run the numbers all you like, you can check eft all you like but unless you test this in game you will never know. So this is my appeal to you CCP. Go into sisi yourself, make a rifter with this fit, and a hawk with what ever fit you like (rockets) and send them on each other. After that make 2 hawks (but be fair and dont web and see how it goes). I can't imagine why an Assault Ship would get owned by a single frig. Yet it will. It can acctualy take out most if not every AS out there (with minmatar exception). That bonus that your gona put in wont make a difference. If rockets are to be the ultimate anti frig weapon, you need to boost the DPS not explosion velocity. (the rifter will travel at 1300m/s and 1700m/s after overload for more then 2min) And I can see how that maybe a problem since the incresed DPS should be higher then autocannon/balster weapons it would mean that it would also be the best choice to hit larger hulls. So what you should do is add some bonus to rockets so that they only do incresed dmg to frigate hulls or something like that. Its great you finally looked into rockets, but the aproach your taking is somewhat wrong im ny humble opinion. (while testing take the thermodynamics skills into account and overload both rifter and hawk for max efficency)
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2010.11.10 13:05:00 -
[385]
Originally by: 7'th Tactical even with this new changes there is no way that a Hawk will take out a Rifter... Insert whatever you like, hell even make that 2 hawks as long as they are rocket fited.
what
|
7'th Tactical
|
Posted - 2010.11.10 13:10:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: 7'th Tactical even with this new changes there is no way that a Hawk will take out a Rifter... Insert whatever you like, hell even make that 2 hawks as long as they are rocket fited.
what
Wow a troll. Go test it then laugh. I acctualy did hence this post.
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2010.11.10 14:20:00 -
[387]
I'm trolling no more than you are.
I'm at work atm so I can't "test it". But last time I checked, Sisi was still running the old rockets. So how would you fit a rocket Hawk?
|
Zyress
|
Posted - 2010.11.10 19:42:00 -
[388]
Adding extra damage won't help you if the ship is moving at fast frigate speed, thats why they up'd the explosion velocity, rocket explosion radius is like 20 m so it doesn't take a frigate long at all to move past that explosion, if they make any additional changes more flight time or speed for a little more range is all I would ask for.
|
Cannibal Girl
|
Posted - 2010.11.10 20:18:00 -
[389]
Edited by: Cannibal Girl on 10/11/2010 20:21:29 Edited by: Cannibal Girl on 10/11/2010 20:20:37
Originally by: CCP Chronotis EAF & AF are next up on our list for a future release, and that will probably also include renaming assault ships to frigates, been bugging us for a while that they were called ships for some reason.
Probably due the the progression of how all the different t2 ship types were introduced over time. When AF's were new there wouldn't have been a reason not to call them assault ships, as there were no others to differentiate them from?
Two of the four EAF's can be pretty effective little ships. (They're just not WOW-easy-to-fly solo pwnmobiles, and it seems that people don't like having to think.) Will be nice to see EAF's get revisited, though.
edit: maybe all four EAF's, I dunno, but I've flown alongside two of them a lot.
|
Cannibal Girl
|
Posted - 2010.11.10 20:27:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington But Canibal, haven't you seen the other nerf threads around? It's perfectly acceptable for one race to have ships that are the best in their class by a huge margin - as long as it's not Caldari
Yep. I'm still convinced rockets were nerfed in the first place because devs were sick of loosing their Claws and Taranis's to our Crows on their off time.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 .. 15 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |