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Zelot Blueice
Therapy. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 05:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zelot Blueice on 01/10/2010 05:23:26 I would just like to make this thread to rage a bit about how I can never seem to make ISK. Perhaps I am not looking in the correct places? Perhaps I am doing it all wrong? I have a faction fit carrier sitting up in Branch that I am making 50mill an hour with, but how the frak do some of these other newer players have more then I do and Ive been in the game for 3 years! What am I doing wrong.
Discuss
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Mr Jebidea
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Posted - 2010.10.01 05:29:00 -
[2]
Buy low, sell high. It's easy.
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Boogie Bobby
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Posted - 2010.10.01 05:29:00 -
[3]
Like any money problem you're either not making enough or spending too much. You said you're able to do 50 mil/hr so you either need to do that more or fly cheaper ships in PvP.
Another way is to buy plex or set up some macros like the other awesome pvpers.
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Marshiro
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Posted - 2010.10.01 05:30:00 -
[4]
You put all your money in the big gamble call teh markets. If you win, billions rain. If you fail, well back to L4s it is.....
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Lillith Starfire
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Posted - 2010.10.01 05:54:00 -
[5]
Just say you make ISK from station trading and now need more ISK to make more ISK. 1 billion seems to be the going starting rate round these parts for some % return after 1 or two months. Someone will surely leap at the chance to throw ISK at you. It seems to be a common theme.
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Companion Qube
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Posted - 2010.10.01 06:03:00 -
[6]
Time and/or $$ = ISK.
These players are spending more time, or more $$, than you are.
The other open secret is that highsec activities scale - if you're missioning, bring 2 more alts and mission faster, if you're an industrialist then turn on 2 more accounts and build 3x as many things. It's easy to make more isk in highsec by just putting in more $$ or time.
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.10.01 07:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Zelot Blueice I would just like to make this thread to rage a bit about how I can never seem to make ISK. Perhaps I am not looking in the correct places? Perhaps I am doing it all wrong? I have a faction fit carrier sitting up in Branch that I am making 50mill an hour with, but how the frak do some of these other newer players have more then I do and Ive been in the game for 3 years! What am I doing wrong. Discuss
There are TWO not-so-secret secrets to making a truckload of ISK.
1. Spend less ISK than you are making.
This sounds awfully silly since it's so obvious, but take your example... you have a faction-fit carrier. How much did that cost you anyway ? That's all NAV right there. You're not poor, you just have all your wealth sunk into stuff you use. Would you prefer to not have anything but have loads of ISK ? Sell that carrier with the fit then, buy a battleship instead, and you'll probably still be making quite a bit of ISK per hour, but also have a whole lot more ISK to play with.
2. Never do any work yourself that others will do for you.
Why mine when you can set up mineral buy orders ? Why manufacture or invent when you can set up item buy orders ? Why run missions or go belting then loot and salvage, when you could set up buy orders for any you get there too ?
If you personally do the grunt work, you won't have enough time to do the brain work, and it's the brain work that brings in the big bucks. You can still make a truckload of ISK working hard, I guess, but you'll never match the profit-making potential of somebody doing no in-game-physics effort but instead merely sitting there looking at graphs and text, changing order values.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Minerva Vulcan
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.10.01 07:26:00 -
[8]
You're in a faction fit carrier making peanuts doing things you could easily do with a ship 1/20th of the value, and risk.
Might be part of your problem right there.
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente Staner Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.01 10:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zelot Blueice
I have a faction fit carrier ... What am I doing wrong.
Spending it all on faction fit carriers.
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Zelot Blueice
Therapy. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 13:22:00 -
[10]
I had actually been saving all that ISK for my carrier to run these Sanctums faster. I figured, give it a few weeks to break even and start making profit. But to me 50mill/hr isnt alot. Infact, it seems too low.
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CCP Adida
C C P C C P Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.01 13:37:00 -
[11]
removed a trolling comment
Adida Community Rep CCP Hf, EVE Online
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Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2010.10.01 13:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Zelot Blueice I would just like to make this thread to rage a bit about how I can never seem to make ISK. Perhaps I am not looking in the correct places? Perhaps I am doing it all wrong? I have a faction fit carrier sitting up in Branch that I am making 50mill an hour with, but how the frak do some of these other newer players have more then I do and Ive been in the game for 3 years! What am I doing wrong. Discuss
There are TWO not-so-secret secrets to making a truckload of ISK.
1. Spend less ISK than you are making.
This sounds awfully silly since it's so obvious, but take your example... you have a faction-fit carrier. How much did that cost you anyway ? That's all NAV right there. You're not poor, you just have all your wealth sunk into stuff you use. Would you prefer to not have anything but have loads of ISK ? Sell that carrier with the fit then, buy a battleship instead, and you'll probably still be making quite a bit of ISK per hour, but also have a whole lot more ISK to play with.
2. Never do any work yourself that others will do for you.
Why mine when you can set up mineral buy orders ? Why manufacture or invent when you can set up item buy orders ? Why run missions or go belting then loot and salvage, when you could set up buy orders for any you get there too ?
If you personally do the grunt work, you won't have enough time to do the brain work, and it's the brain work that brings in the big bucks. You can still make a truckload of ISK working hard, I guess, but you'll never match the profit-making potential of somebody doing no in-game-physics effort but instead merely sitting there looking at graphs and text, changing order values.
the only thing is, the grunt work is the most exiting part, why would I want to play a game to stare at lists of prices and stats ?
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Akita T
Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2010.10.01 14:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Brian Ballsack the only thing is, the grunt work is the most exiting part, why would I want to play a game to stare at lists of prices and stats ?
The fun part of the game is that part where you consume the ISK you earned in the boring part. If you manage to find the boring part exciting, more power to you.
Maybe grunt work seems exciting to you (and probably to quite a few other people, maybe even a majority of people, otherwise traders wouldn't be so successful ISK-wise if nobody bothered to do the grunt work), but that doesn't mean everybody finds grunt work exciting. I, for one, find most of it it rather boring after having "sampled" a bit from each of the possible activities (some a bit more, some barely), and would rather avoid it unless absolutely necessary. Mind you, I consider even staring at price lists and changing order values all day long to ALSO be grunt work I usually set an order and let it sit untouched. If I placed it right, it will get processed eventually.
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Beginner's ISK making guide | Manufacturer's helper | All about reacting _
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Business Classy
Business Class Investments
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Posted - 2010.10.01 14:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Brian Ballsack
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Zelot Blueice I would just like to make this thread to rage a bit about how I can never seem to make ISK. Perhaps I am not looking in the correct places? Perhaps I am doing it all wrong? I have a faction fit carrier sitting up in Branch that I am making 50mill an hour with, but how the frak do some of these other newer players have more then I do and Ive been in the game for 3 years! What am I doing wrong. Discuss
There are TWO not-so-secret secrets to making a truckload of ISK.
1. Spend less ISK than you are making.
This sounds awfully silly since it's so obvious, but take your example... you have a faction-fit carrier. How much did that cost you anyway ? That's all NAV right there. You're not poor, you just have all your wealth sunk into stuff you use. Would you prefer to not have anything but have loads of ISK ? Sell that carrier with the fit then, buy a battleship instead, and you'll probably still be making quite a bit of ISK per hour, but also have a whole lot more ISK to play with.
2. Never do any work yourself that others will do for you.
Why mine when you can set up mineral buy orders ? Why manufacture or invent when you can set up item buy orders ? Why run missions or go belting then loot and salvage, when you could set up buy orders for any you get there too ?
If you personally do the grunt work, you won't have enough time to do the brain work, and it's the brain work that brings in the big bucks. You can still make a truckload of ISK working hard, I guess, but you'll never match the profit-making potential of somebody doing no in-game-physics effort but instead merely sitting there looking at graphs and text, changing order values.
the only thing is, the grunt work is the most exiting part, why would I want to play a game to stare at lists of prices and stats ?
To each their own I suppose, but I suspect for a lot of the big successes part of the joy comes from knowing there are armies of peons doing grunt work for you :)
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Bladen Kerst
Caldari Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.10.01 14:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zelot Blueice I had actually been saving all that ISK for my carrier to run these Sanctums faster. I figured, give it a few weeks to break even and start making profit. But to me 50mill/hr isnt alot. Infact, it seems too low.
wormhole space ... yawn.. you know that feature which was around for more than a year
no less than 500 mil/hr with mulptiple accounts, capital, knowledge, experience
with one account in a team or solo you can still push 200 mil/hr
thats of course only if you are incapable of using trading advice given here
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Marshiro
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Posted - 2010.10.01 15:52:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Marshiro on 01/10/2010 15:56:02 Edited by: Marshiro on 01/10/2010 15:53:24
Originally by: Zelot Blueice I had actually been saving all that ISK for my carrier to run these Sanctums faster. I figured, give it a few weeks to break even and start making profit. But to me 50mill/hr isnt alot. Infact, it seems too low.
I disagree with other MD folks that says trade is necessarily the path to wealth. The path to wealth is simple:
You increase the scale of your operation up to its absolute limit Traders don't make a lot of money because there is a huge demand for arbitrage, traders make a lot of money because traders MOVE A LOT OF MONEY. When people are flipping 5 billion or 20 billions a day it adds up, while a beginning trader may struggle to beat L4 income. The biggest advantage of trade is that it does not take investment in accounts and sp that is very illiquid compared to market assets with huge transaction costs. I don't really think market folks make much more than someone that throws 10b in ships and fly them all at the same time, especially considering the freedom the latter offers. (make money whenever you want, no need to worry about values when you take vacation, and a lot of toons for spaceship pew pew if you want it)
The principle of scale apply to PvE, industry and even human organizational wealth. Running a single carrier is doing it wrong, for one thing every sane carrier pilot have a cyno alt that could be flying battleships along side it. Some of the other wealthy people I know run fleets of plexing ishtars that chew up a half a dozen 10/10 in a day while others run a one man C4 operation with multiple cap escalations. We all also know and see of one man hulk fleets and other things of the sort in high sec all day. Same is true for industry, someone that runs 20 towers can make quite a bit more than 1 tower for moderately more hauling (got a jump freighter?), and someone that stuff their pipeline some 4billion worth of minerals per day in production has to make quite a bit if there is any margin at all. Finally, if you run a corp, it is better to tax 150 people than 15.
Expectation value (isk/hr) for time is the main consideration, so specialize One of the biggest mistakes a player can make is false economy. There are a lot of things one could make money in, however there is usually only a few things that makes the most money per hour and one should always focus on that. That activity may not necessarily be trade (if you don't like excel and datamining eve central, you are those n00bs that gets OWNNNNED in market pvp) but it is an single activity for a given player's interests and assets. For example, what separates a elite mission runner doing 60m/hr highsec l4s and a crummy one doing 40m at max skill is their focus. A elite mission runner computes their isk per hour and do things like: "Ignore loot/salvage after mission trigger is popped, shoot only battleships and triggers, focus on lp conversion only" while a crummy one would often waste time doing low value activities like grabbing metal scraps (worth 4k isk) as opposed to high value ones (killing battleships, lp conversion).
So remember, do the thing that make the most isk, and do ONLY that thing until it loses profitability. Don't be those guys flying a 30 Billion marauder and still use T1 ammo and grab a cargohold of scrap metal. Don't worry about the profit of things in front of your eyes, think about the profit of your action in term of times.
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Scott McClellan
Forum Posters Anonymous
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Posted - 2010.10.01 17:36:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Scott McClellan on 01/10/2010 17:37:31
Originally by: Akita T
2. Never do any work yourself that others will do for you.
Why mine when you can set up mineral buy orders ? Why manufacture or invent when you can set up item buy orders ? Why run missions or go belting then loot and salvage, when you could set up buy orders for any you get there too ?
QFT. Other people tend to value their time so little.
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Slapchop Gonnalovemynuts
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Posted - 2010.10.01 21:16:00 -
[18]
I am poasting to say that, I too am a poor player who has been playing for 5 years now. I have around 400m liquid ISK and a couple valuable ships, but no real assets to speak of. However, I know exactly what my problem is... I am extremely lazy and simply logging in to change skills is enough playtime to tide me over. I blame the 'jaded vet' syndrome, in that I just cannot bring myself to actually play the game, however I am emotionally invested to the point where I cannot bring myself to simply cancel my accounts. I am sure CCP loves me, the player with 4 accounts who keeps paying yet does not cause undue server load because all he does is log in and change skills --------------------------------------------
Quote: EVE-Online... Too rough for ya? Don't like it? GTFO...
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Zelot Blueice
Therapy. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 22:19:00 -
[19]
Keep this discussion going. I have learned alot so far and I <3 all you guys in MD.
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Smelly Bait
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:00:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Smelly Bait on 01/10/2010 23:02:21 This is a alt to protect my line of business,
I have bought for 373,405 million isk trade goods and i have sold for 485,852 millions isk in 1,5 yr time.
I did 4 months over my first 5b, my second 5b took 3 months, my third took 1 month, now i make 6-9b a month depending on the market. Occasionly a nice spike, made 12,7b previous month.
The bigger the invesment the more u can make so your start capital is very important to get started. Just look around and see what items sell good. Once u hit the 3b a month mark wonder if your better with another account with only 3 trade chars on it for market orders ect.
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Alice Celadon
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:39:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Alice Celadon on 01/10/2010 23:43:03 T2 and T3 are your friend. No one likes to bother with that crap, so the people that do experience very healthy margins.
Edit: Let me get specific. If you have even a medium caldari tower running labs in hisec, and you can be bothered to refresh materials and research jobs every week, you will have to actively make stupid decisions to not make a solid monthly 20%.
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Zelot Blueice
Therapy. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.10.01 23:59:00 -
[22]
I am so glad that unlike other EVE forums, MD can help. I have been really thinking about going into trading and production to make ISK. I even made an alt toon on my main account to store my ISK on so its harder for me to spend. I think I am going to do good things from now on. Smart choices and less PVP.
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Zeta Zhul
Caldari Preemptive Paranoia
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Posted - 2010.10.03 18:53:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Zeta Zhul on 03/10/2010 18:55:20
Originally by: Zelot Blueice I am so glad that unlike other EVE forums, MD can help. I have been really thinking about going into trading and production to make ISK. I even made an alt toon on my main account to store my ISK on so its harder for me to spend. I think I am going to do good things from now on. Smart choices and less PVP.
A few thoughts:
1. You definitely either want to have your own corp, for the corp wallet, or have a "bank" alt. Since it doesn't cost money to transfer cash between alt <-> alt or alt <-> corp wallet this will prevent issues such as buying a (1) Rifter for 294m like someone did last night. To whom I wish to say: Thank you! My mother thanks you, my father thanks you and my cat thanks you.
2. You can manufacture but IMO unless you're really willing to go whole-hog and make the billions in investing in manufacturing you're really not going to make that much isk. The reason is that the manufacturing side is already pretty well filled out in terms of competition plus there is an endless pressure to drive down prices. Where there is high profitability there is huge competition. Where there is less competition there is usually either low profits or the necessary investment in time & isk is so high only someone with multiple accounts and an expensive highly structured support network is able to do the job.
3. I've got about 2bil in cash right now and about 6bil in inventory with 2 toons since I started last December. I mostly did missions while I learned more about the game and only really started working the markets since June. Even then I'm fairly lazy so I haven't really put forth the effort I should though that is changing. Making money in the markets is fairly easy.
4. You can buy off of sell orders but that's a fairly fail way of doing things. Buy orders are your friend especially in mission hubs or in systems adjacent to mission hubs. On the other hand you can buy from as many sell orders as you like and not everybody has the patience for selling. Many people just want to get a decent price and want to unload their stuff.
5. Most people fall into a fairly simple set of trading patterns. They either relish the competition or they just aren't into it. They either spend most of their time trading or they figure it's a cash cow they'd rather not put a lot of effort into it. This generally determines what precise items get traded and where. Trade hubs and mission hubs have the highest competition while relative backwaters won't see much at all. If you're into fighting for market share then trade hubs are for you, if not then perhaps mission hubs. If less so then definitely go for systems adjacent to trade hubs or mission hubs. You get plenty of overflow traffic especially with the recent changes to mission locations.
6. One relatively simple technique requires 2 sell orders. 1 sell order has the minimum price for that station while the other sell order sets a very high price. As an example I have/had the lowest price for Rifters in my specific station while someone else had a sell order for 1 Rifter @ 294mil. Someone decided to buy a Rifter at my station from the Market Group window (I assume) and didn't really look at the price and just hit "buy". Since all purchases for any item automatically get sold from the lowest priced sell order that means I sold 1 Rifter for 294mil, courtesy of the buyer and the guy who priced his Rifter @ 294mil.
That's a viable technique that you can use. Set a quantity of an item at a low but reasonable price and then set another sell order for 1 quantity of the same item at the same station for something much higher. Another time this worked for me, and it has quite a *lot*, I sold Havoc Heavy missiles @ 34,000/per missile. This does work whether or not you're doing low volume or high volume trading. Ok, hit the wall o'text limit. I'll add more in a bit.
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