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Denidil
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
371
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Posted - 2012.08.01 16:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
when you nerfed the tank back down you nerfed it back down too hard.. with the current set of changes it is still too easy ot suicide a hulk. If you don't see a problem in 0.0 eroding into two big super-coalitions and a few hangers on in areas nobody cares about.. then you don't have brains. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
309
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Posted - 2012.08.01 16:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG] |
Aurelius Valentius
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
158
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Posted - 2012.08.02 07:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
Barbara Nichole wrote:I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic.
It's a fleet ship now - it doesn't need a tank... My PG is too small, my CPU insufficient, my crystals are too big and my cargo too small, I used to be named after a green guy but now it's more like family guy... what am I?
ORE = DCU II + EHP Stucture = Anti-Ganking Fix and choice = yield or tank. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
347
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Posted - 2012.08.02 07:56:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aurelius Valentius wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic. It's a fleet ship now - it doesn't need a tank...
yep, rats will always be polite and target some thing that isn't the hulks.... Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
130
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Posted - 2012.08.02 08:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Aurelius Valentius wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic. It's a fleet ship now - it doesn't need a tank... yep, rats will always be polite and target some thing that isn't the hulks....
I've had really strange experiences with belt rats. They always seem to attack weakest ship on belt. I've tested this with Covetor and assault frig. They always went for Covetor. |
Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
348
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Posted - 2012.08.02 09:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Dave stark wrote:Aurelius Valentius wrote:Barbara Nichole wrote:I don't know that suicide ganking would my concideration in this. Actually, I think you need to compare an untanked hulk with all other untanked vessels of it's size (T1 and T2) then adjust it's raw EPH approprietely. Currently, I agree it's too weak to be realistic. It's a fleet ship now - it doesn't need a tank... yep, rats will always be polite and target some thing that isn't the hulks.... I've had really strange experiences with belt rats. They always seem to attack weakest ship on belt. I've tested this with Covetor and assault frig. They always went for Covetor.
tried it with a battleship? they could be going for the "biggest" ship. or the closest. or the one with the least ehp or... a myriad of other reasons.
the issue is if you're in a belt and rats warp in and lock up the mining ships, unless they can tank it they're going to have to warp out unless you've got some substantial dps guarding them. which is another ship that could be mining, which means dropping hulks for higher ehp ships like macks and further making the issue of "1 ship beats them all" again, however now it's the mack not the hulk.
lowering ship ehp is just going to further push the mack in to the hulk's old crown. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Yui Okane-Mochi
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.08.02 10:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
While I think the initial buff was excessive, nerfing both resists and base HP simultaneously on the following stat revision was a bit excessive.
It needs the 7.5% per level resists back.
t¦ÉFíú |
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries The OORT Cloud
6
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Posted - 2012.08.02 12:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Another nerf on the Hulk, it was hardly over powered to big with.
These are NOT combat ships they run active tanks and have to be able to tank the RATS in null. If they can't do that without compromising the yield they are useless.
Trying to use PvP standards on these ships to create a baseline will destroy them.
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Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
2
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Posted - 2012.08.02 13:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think pushing for a bigger tank on the Hulk is a lost cause. If you want tank, maybe you need a Skiff in your mining op carrying a set of medium drones. It probably can't tank the rats indefinitely but it can kill them. Rorqual with shield transporter would also help.
You could also try to out-and-out kill 0.0 rat spawns instead of tanking them.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
83
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Posted - 2012.08.02 13:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Have miners in eve really dumbed down so much that they don't know how to control belt rat aggo? |
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MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
33
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Posted - 2012.08.02 14:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Have miners in eve really dumbed down so much that they don't know how to control belt rat aggo?
No most miners still can not get there head around the fact that there will not be an alpha miner anymore and they are still wanting a max tank max yield ship. With the current SiSi stats you can put a 22k EPH tank on a hulk this is more then enough Hp for a fleet operation. If you do not think that this is enough fly a Skiff or Mak in Fleet then as they will have more EHP but at a cost of the highest yeild. I know people are going to flame away at this but I think the Mak should have a slight reduction to EHP so it makes the Skiff more viable to fly. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
83
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Posted - 2012.08.02 14:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
I remember when the key man in a mining fleet was the ferox who could tank the belt while still running a rack of miners. Then people moved up to the vulture who could provide the mining bonuses, tank the belt and run a full rack of miners. Then ccp spoiled miners by giving them the orca which can tank the belt, give bonuses and store the ore. Yet still they complain. |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
33
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Posted - 2012.08.02 14:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well now if they want to tank the belt rats they can put someone in a skiff any only lose ~15% yield from a hulk which is still a nice amount of Ore mined an hour. Yes a skiff can tank 0.0 Rats easily and still have 2 MLU's in the lows. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
83
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Posted - 2012.08.02 14:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
MIrple wrote:Well now if they want to tank the belt rats they can put someone in a skiff any only lose ~15% yield from a hulk which is still a nice amount of Ore mined an hour. Yes a skiff can tank 0.0 Rats easily and still have 2 MLU's in the lows.
Yep, but they won't.
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Dave stark
Bombardier Inc
350
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Posted - 2012.08.02 15:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Doddy wrote:MIrple wrote:Well now if they want to tank the belt rats they can put someone in a skiff any only lose ~15% yield from a hulk which is still a nice amount of Ore mined an hour. Yes a skiff can tank 0.0 Rats easily and still have 2 MLU's in the lows. Yep, but they won't.
correct, because the hulk can already tank the belt rats, even more so if the other hulk's have logi drones.
if the hulk can't tank belt rats after the change then the nerfs have gone too far, especially based on the fact ccp want exhumers to be less paper thin. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
MIrple
BSC LEGION Tactical Narcotics Team
34
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Posted - 2012.08.02 15:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
If the numbers on Sisi are correct they will be able to as the numbers don't change much. Now will people fit them correctly is another question. |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
131
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Posted - 2012.08.02 15:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
Draconyx wrote: Trying to use PvP standards on these ships to create a baseline will destroy them.
Surely then, these changes shouldn't be happening at all?
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Hypercake Mix
Magical Rainbow Bakery
6
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Posted - 2012.08.02 16:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Because the loudest of the community wants mining to consist of high amounts of complexity and minimal fun while still maximizing the fun of blowing up miners.
Because a ship named "Hulk" should be the glass shovel of EVE.
You know... that whole "this is why we can't have nice things" thing.
They still wonder why people don't leave high-sec too. |
Draconyx
Oort Cloud Industries The OORT Cloud
6
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Posted - 2012.08.02 16:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
Soi Mala wrote:Draconyx wrote: Trying to use PvP standards on these ships to create a baseline will destroy them.
Surely then, these changes shouldn't be happening at all?
Well considering we are talking about a Hulk that you could put a decent tank on with a Gistii B small shield booster (T2 small doesn't cut it) and in most case a 3% implant things where tight before.
What made it used able null was the resistances. CCP hasn't done anything to the Hulk so far other then nerf the ship.
The few HP's they have given the ship does very little to nothing.
IF the hulk is supposed to be the standard well things are not looking very good.
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Aglais
Liberation Army BricK sQuAD.
81
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Posted - 2012.08.02 19:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
I don't think anyone in here understands what 'tiericide' means. There's no "standard" mining ship anymore. At all. You now have three choices for which mining vessel you want to fly, and which one you take for the task will be depend on whether or not you want better mining efficiency, ore capacity or defensive capability.
You're all used to the Hulk being the top tier mining barge, and it was simply the best at everything. You are clinging to old ideas and hoping they don't stop being truths. After tiericide, the differentiating factors will be the roles of the ship, and how their stats correlate with them. The Hulk is the best when it comes to pulling ore out of asteroids. The Mackinaw has the best ore bay, and the Skiff (I'm pretty sure that's the one) is the most hardened and likely meant more for solo mining the way all of you want your hulks to fly like. Hell, if I remember right the Skiff even has bonuses to it's strip miners or whatever so that it mines comparably to the other two despite only having one hardpoint to put the thing on. That should mean something. |
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Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
34
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Posted - 2012.08.02 22:13:00 -
[21] - Quote
Aglais wrote:I don't think anyone in here understands what 'tiericide' means. There's no "standard" mining ship anymore. At all. You now have three choices for which mining vessel you want to fly, and which one you take for the task will be depend on whether or not you want better mining efficiency, ore capacity or defensive capability.
You're all used to the Hulk being the top tier mining barge, and it was simply the best at everything. You are clinging to old ideas and hoping they don't stop being truths. After tiericide, the differentiating factors will be the roles of the ship, and how their stats correlate with them. The Hulk is the best when it comes to pulling ore out of asteroids. The Mackinaw has the best ore bay, and the Skiff (I'm pretty sure that's the one) is the most hardened and likely meant more for solo mining the way all of you want your hulks to fly like. Hell, if I remember right the Skiff even has bonuses to it's strip miners or whatever so that it mines comparably to the other two despite only having one hardpoint to put the thing on. That should mean something.
Actually I think you are the one mistaking the intentions, and desires of the miners (well, most of us). We aren't asking for Hulk to have the best tank, or even the 2nd best tank. We are asking that it can take more than a hit or two from anything larger than a frigate, in order to either let dps kill off the rats, or in pvp case, give the miner a chance at getting away (or again letting their dps coverage kill off the attacker). Hulks currently on live walk a fine line there, as a suicide ganker in a destroyer can take them out if they are in .8 or lower (all the d-scan, don't be there when they arrive arguments aside), and in low sec rats can be delt with but hurt like hell at times. Raising their tank slightly was amazing and we were content. Dropping it down makes it entirely too weak, and too easy to be picked off. In particular out in low / 0.0, it would get to a point where if they see ANYONE in system they would have to scramble for base, because a small pack of suiciders could have a field day taking out several of them before covering ships could take them down.
We understand roles, and I personally love that they are trying to give them to the ships, but they also were rather specific when they said they wanted a bit more ehp on all of them. |
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Republic University Minmatar Republic
122
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Posted - 2012.08.03 23:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:Aglais wrote:I don't think anyone in here understands what 'tiericide' means. There's no "standard" mining ship anymore. At all. You now have three choices for which mining vessel you want to fly, and which one you take for the task will be depend on whether or not you want better mining efficiency, ore capacity or defensive capability.
You're all used to the Hulk being the top tier mining barge, and it was simply the best at everything. You are clinging to old ideas and hoping they don't stop being truths. After tiericide, the differentiating factors will be the roles of the ship, and how their stats correlate with them. The Hulk is the best when it comes to pulling ore out of asteroids. The Mackinaw has the best ore bay, and the Skiff (I'm pretty sure that's the one) is the most hardened and likely meant more for solo mining the way all of you want your hulks to fly like. Hell, if I remember right the Skiff even has bonuses to it's strip miners or whatever so that it mines comparably to the other two despite only having one hardpoint to put the thing on. That should mean something. Actually I think you are the one mistaking the intentions, and desires of the miners (well, most of us). We aren't asking for Hulk to have the best tank, or even the 2nd best tank. We are asking that it can take more than a hit or two from anything larger than a frigate, in order to either let dps kill off the rats, or in pvp case, give the miner a chance at getting away (or again letting their dps coverage kill off the attacker). Hulks currently on live walk a fine line there, as a suicide ganker in a destroyer can take them out if they are in .8 or lower (all the d-scan, don't be there when they arrive arguments aside), and in low sec rats can be delt with but hurt like hell at times. Raising their tank slightly was amazing and we were content. Dropping it down makes it entirely too weak, and too easy to be picked off. In particular out in low / 0.0, it would get to a point where if they see ANYONE in system they would have to scramble for base, because a small pack of suiciders could have a field day taking out several of them before covering ships could take them down. We understand roles, and I personally love that they are trying to give them to the ships, but they also were rather specific when they said they wanted a bit more ehp on all of them.
Pre patch: Fit a tank. Post patch: Get a skiff. |
Anazzar
Howling Stones Mining Corporation
20
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Posted - 2012.08.04 09:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
We understand roles
No, no you don't.
The solution to the problem you are having there is that you need to fly a skiff since you are solo mining.
The hulk is no longer the be all and end all of mining ships it is a fleet ship
And if you don't know how to deal with rats in a fleet even though people in this thread have already posted easy solutions then you have bigger issues to deal with than hulk EHP.
As for suicide ganking, again skiffy to the rescue. And for null ops, well if they have landed on grid and you are not aligned and warping out then you have already failed. |
Ooda
Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens
18
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Anazzar wrote:Zyella Stormborn wrote:
We understand roles
The hulk is no longer the be all and end all of mining ships it is a fleet ship
It is a crap-fleetship if it burns down before someone can kill the rats. I don't think this will happen, but you'll need a fit even more expensive than it is now allready. You're going to need a strong active tank - or someone repping them which could have been a miner on it's own. Especially in Drone Regions, where rats vary a lot more in dmg than in other spaces.
Anyway - hulk is getting nerfed for no reason - cargospace reduction + tank reduction = very hard usability nerf. On top of it, mining will become less valuable just because everyone and their mother can use macks and be AFK all the time in highsec :)
Good one? I think not - it's a really crappy change for active playing miners with more than one account (which is the common used tactic to earn comparable iskies to other activities anyway - especially if you earn more money in HS than in 0.0).
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
416
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Posted - 2012.08.04 11:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
It is just a simple case of risk vs reward. The value of ore will balance it self out better as they get rid of more and more bots.
So the choice is simple if you are worried about Null rats or HS ganks, Don't fly a hulk.
It really is that simple, if you want more safety, fly something with a higher ehp while sacrificing some yield. If you have overwatch ships for rats or have factored in the loss of your hulk into mining profits then fly a hulk. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Ooda
Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens
18
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Posted - 2012.08.04 14:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:It is just a simple case of risk vs reward. The value of ore will balance it self out better as they get rid of more and more bots.
Are you really that damn ignorant? Mining in a Barge with a dozillion cycle-orehold which can be flown by 5 day old toons won't increase mineral-supply? Erm, yes! .. lawl.
Quote: So the choice is simple if you are worried about Null rats or HS ganks, Don't fly a hulk.
So you can use a hulk in HS with no problem - but you can't use it in 0.0 just because rats will eat ya? Nice RISK vs REWARD - go troll someone else, ty. |
MotherMoon
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
1063
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Posted - 2012.08.04 19:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Denidil wrote:when you nerfed the tank back down you nerfed it back down too hard.. with the current set of changes it is still too easy ot suicide a hulk. That's the point numb nuts
you pick yield, tank, or ore bay. You can't have 2, you can only pick 1
also hulks only need a single level of skill now and all of them cost the same to build
edit:how is this a nerf? they are boosting the hulks ehp and giving it better mining. Nerf my ass http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
34
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Posted - 2012.08.04 22:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote:Denidil wrote:when you nerfed the tank back down you nerfed it back down too hard.. with the current set of changes it is still too easy ot suicide a hulk. That's the point numb nuts you pick yield, tank, or ore bay. You can't have 2, you can only pick 1 also hulks only need a single level of skill now and all of them cost the same to build edit:how is this a nerf? they are boosting the hulks ehp and giving it better mining. Nerf my ass
Unless something changed again recently (which is entirely possible, since its test), they dropped the Hulk's ehp due to resist drops a bit. If they have increased their mining even more, then it does indeed help balance the aboves argument about risk / reward, and I have no argument. If they did not, then the price of the ship does not justify how paper thin it is for the small bonus it gives over the others (again, if the price of the materials list to make the ship have dropped to justify, my arguments are moot and I am happy with the changes all around, haven't been on in a couple of days so not sure of latest changes if any).
Again, I don't see where anyone asked for 2. May want to re read the posts. If the Hulk stays with the same tank as it has on live, many of us are ok with that. If it got a slight buff, we were ecstatic. But making a ship that big and that expensive (or did they reduce the cost for producing them?) also easier than it currently is (a t2 dessie can drop a tanked Hulk in painfully few seconds if they even land within range) doesn't make much sense.
The changes to the mack were pretty amazing. The changes to the skiff were... odd, but I am sure some pple will use them. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
419
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Posted - 2012.08.04 23:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Ooda wrote:Frying Doom wrote:It is just a simple case of risk vs reward. The value of ore will balance it self out better as they get rid of more and more bots. Are you really that damn ignorant? Mining in a Barge with a dozillion cycle-orehold which can be flown by 5 day old toons won't increase mineral-supply? Erm, yes! .. lawl. Yeah the ability to fly an exhumer easier will really make the PvP players flock to Mining. If there are new players they will probably fall into the same categories as the current playerbase so just increasing supply and demand. As usual the majority of minerals will come from the same old group of miners.
Ooda wrote:Frying Doom wrote: So the choice is simple if you are worried about Null rats or HS ganks, Don't fly a hulk.
So you can use a hulk in HS with no problem - but you can't use it in 0.0 just because rats will eat ya? Nice RISK vs REWARD - go troll someone else, ty. So you can't read and don't know part of the reason for the change was due to Hi-sec ganking. So yeah you can use a hulk in Hi-sec if you are an idiot. Hell hulks and macks will still get picked off in Hi, Hulks because they are paper thin and macks because the miners are probably afk.
As to Null, if you have over watch as I said you can use a hulk and have the over watch kill the rats, if not then don't fly a hulk.
Edit: why is it so hard for some people to grasp the fact you have to choose, yield, tank or cargo. Just 1 of these is all you get now. If you want more ore use a hulk but don't be surprised if it goes boom. Use a mack if you want cargo so you don't have to sit at the keyboard all the time or choose a skiff if you want a bigger tank. Or just fly T1 the yield isn't that much different but they cost a lot less. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Ooda
Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens
18
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Posted - 2012.08.05 01:00:00 -
[30] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: So you can't read and don't know part of the reason for the change was due to Hi-sec ganking. So yeah you can use a hulk in Hi-sec if you are an idiot. Hell hulks and macks will still get picked off in Hi, Hulks because they are paper thin and macks because the miners are probably afk.
Hell, there are HS-systems in which mining in a Hulk is totally safe - and the whole reason why ganks occured so much is players stupidness - do you really think smart players will use anything other than a hulk for HS? srsly? Maybe a mack just because of convenience.
Quote: As to Null, if you have over watch as I said you can use a hulk and have the over watch kill the rats, if not then don't fly a hulk.
Edit: why is it so hard for some people to grasp the fact you have to choose, yield, tank or cargo. Just 1 of these is all you get now. If you want more ore use a hulk but don't be surprised if it goes boom. Use a mack if you want cargo so you don't have to sit at the keyboard all the time or choose a skiff if you want a bigger tank. Or just fly T1 the yield isn't that much different but they cost a lot less.
So you still get the same rewards in Highsec, without the risk by simple rats? Nice decision, and, even though I'm going to repeat myself - nice risk vs reward.
It's not that I have any problem with it, I will still tank all 0.0 rats with hulks - even if I have to use 15 shield-bots - but it still remains a stupid-change in a greater view which has no valid baseline-argument anyway and which will do just nothing besides creating a more annoying load of tasks on players like the cargohold-mess. But hell yeah, doing changes for the sake of changing stuff is good! |
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