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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Barakkus
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Posted - 2010.10.05 15:38:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Ix Forres
Originally by: Niraia "as neither Chris nor Marcus were able to invest the amount of effort it took to maintain and develop the Capsuleer platform for free."
So you dropped it because of greed. Got it. Other people do this stuff for fun, and you give them a bad name. gtfo o/
No, it was dropped because people have to be able to eat, and spending all your time and money on free projects does not help you.
I'm sorry that's just assinine to think they spent all their time and money developing a simple application that reads some xml feeds and displays it on a stupid cell phone.
Originally by: captain foivos Who would recruit someone named Barakkus?
Wait a minute...
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MasterEnt
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Posted - 2010.10.05 15:57:00 -
[152]
Edited by: MasterEnt on 05/10/2010 16:06:19 Edited by: MasterEnt on 05/10/2010 16:06:05
Im sorry to hear this - iis a great app and I as well was hoping it would grow.
But i have to wonder why you did not use the same resources others use to make some money from the apps - advertising for one, payment for another. I would have EASILY paid $5 for this app depending on how much it would let me browse. Maybe $10-15 if it had an item browser, map, jump planner and other similar things
I suggest you add some content to the app and sell it for $10. If you really have 60,000 users x $10 = $600,000 -30% for a total of $510,000 + Ad revenue Even if you make only 1/2 of that, you are good.
WTF if the problem? You got the talent a lot of people don't have with the programing - but IMHO you need to learn a bit more about business.
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Crias Taylor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:24:00 -
[153]
Use iClone. It is missing only headlines, push notification for skills and a ****ty blog by its app developer.
The only thing I used it for really was alerts but I can just make calendar entries.
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Dogsarepe
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:26:00 -
[154]
I frequented Capsuleer on my iPhone and very much appreciated it. Never had a problem pitching in $0.99 for something like that.
Having been forced to switch carriers with a relocation and trying out a phone running Android though.... well, my iPhone will remain an iTouch now.
I guess this may be a bit off topic, but Apple's proprietary "our way or no way (or at least we'll make it very difficult for you to do your own way)" approach to business is backfiring on them once again. They got a huge market with that phone already of course; but damn, can't even begin to imagine the money they could have made had they opened things up a bit. Would have thought Jobs had learned by now. It's a great little piece of hardware, but for the sake of intelligent users everywhere, open it up and let people run with it! (because they are going to anyway)
So, there are a number of other EVE mobile apps out there and even better ones in development right now. Some free and others not to be. CCP is top notch in the development and production business imo, and I'd be surprised if they were placing all their eggs in one basket at any given time. It's all good, it's all fun, but it is still business after all. And in the end... there was the beginning. |
Dragon Greg
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:29:00 -
[155]
Originally by: MasterEnt Edited by: MasterEnt on 05/10/2010 16:06:19 Edited by: MasterEnt on 05/10/2010 16:06:05
Im sorry to hear this - iis a great app and I as well was hoping it would grow.
But i have to wonder why you did not use the same resources others use to make some money from the apps - advertising for one, payment for another. I would have EASILY paid $5 for this app depending on how much it would let me browse. Maybe $10-15 if it had an item browser, map, jump planner and other similar things
I suggest you add some content to the app and sell it for $10. If you really have 60,000 users x $10 = $600,000 -30% for a total of $510,000 + Ad revenue Even if you make only 1/2 of that, you are good.
WTF if the problem? You got the talent a lot of people don't have with the programing - but IMHO you need to learn a bit more about business.
For that it seems they would need that communication with CCP and permission and all that. |
Nergart
Gallente GWA Corp
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:39:00 -
[156]
ok well as stated before that sucks, an app ive really enjoyed afterall it works very well. shame about not being able to get a deal with ccp.
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DonHel
Gallente Kentucky Fried Capsuleer
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:20:00 -
[157]
Originally by: MasterEnt Edited by: MasterEnt on 05/10/2010 16:06:19 Edited by: MasterEnt on 05/10/2010 16:06:05
Im sorry to hear this - iis a great app and I as well was hoping it would grow.
But i have to wonder why you did not use the same resources others use to make some money from the apps - advertising for one, payment for another. I would have EASILY paid $5 for this app depending on how much it would let me browse. Maybe $10-15 if it had an item browser, map, jump planner and other similar things
I suggest you add some content to the app and sell it for $10. If you really have 60,000 users x $10 = $600,000 -30% for a total of $510,000 + Ad revenue Even if you make only 1/2 of that, you are good.
WTF if the problem? You got the talent a lot of people don't have with the programing - but IMHO you need to learn a bit more about business.
they need CCP permission before they can make a dime off it
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Woodspoon
Gallente Nerfherders
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:44:00 -
[158]
CCP YOU SUCK!
Capsuleer is/was an awesome app Stalling or just failing to get in contact with the Capsuleer team after saying how great you thought it was is a real crappy move. CCP was a small company once that needed help and someone helped you.
Congrats CCP you've ****ed off thousands of loyal EvE players (yet) again
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Amarok Tonrar
Dark Shadow Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:48:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Amarok Tonrar on 05/10/2010 17:52:17 Edited by: Amarok Tonrar on 05/10/2010 17:51:25 I don't own an IPhone or an Android or any of the other fancy phones. I have however heard of Capsuleer and have seen the various photos of it. Sounded like a really useful tool and as with any good Eve tool, always saddened to hear its closing doors. At first I was on the side of the CCP haters in here screaming for "justice" and for CCP to step up and do something. HOWEVER, previous comments here certainly hold a lot of truth and thus my thoughts have changed.
Apps like this are and should be done by people simply due to their love for the game. This is their hobby. This is their own little pet project. This is NOT CCPs doing. Getting paid because they put in so many hours a day on a project they did because, one would think, they enjoyed doing? It's a nice dream but not one we should hold CCP accountable for when CCP doesn't come through. Lots of other devs create apps to better our Eve addicted lives, and I'm sure a lot of them would love to be paid for all their hard work.
Which brings me to my second point. I'm no lawyer but I'm sure there is a LOT of legal issues involved in allowing others, 3rd party applications, to make money off of your game. By allowing one to get paid, they could open a flood gate that may be impossible to control. Soon, every party under the sun who's created even the smallest of apps for Eve, could be busting down their door seeking financial options. And the dangerous ramifications of it could extend even further than that.
Sure, CCP flew them to Iceland and made such statements as ôCapsuleer ****ing rocksö. But then how many times have we heard how awesome EveMon is from CCP? Quite often. More so than Capsuleer I'd say. This is just my opinion, but I really think it was more a pat on the back and a good PR boost to say, "here's one of the pinnacle pieces of software YOU, the customer, can do with the API!" and then Mr PyjamaSam and Mr. Roc Weiler took those words and ran with it, dollar signs floating in their heads.
Now, I have to ask, if that had never happened, would you still be closing shop? Probably not. I mean, maybe for another reason but not due to lack of income on the project, finger pointing at CCP.
However, I WILL point my finger at CCP and say, perhaps it's best you watch your p's and q's a little more closely. If you did make any intentional insinuations of doing business with these guys or anyone else, then you definitely should learn to follow through a lot better.
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Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:54:00 -
[160]
I am sure going to miss Capsuleer too... It has been one of my hotbar apps since I installed it on my iPhone.
Thank you so much guys, sorry you arnt able to continue supporting it.
------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------ |
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:56:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Woodspoon CCP YOU SUCK!
Capsuleer is/was an awesome app Stalling or just failing to get in contact with the Capsuleer team after saying how great you thought it was is a real crappy move. CCP was a small company once that needed help and someone helped you.
Congrats CCP you've ****ed off a few hundred of loyal apple users.
FYP.
I don't see this as a big deal. One service provider of a few that produce a similar service stopped providing a service. So what? They want a job instead of working on a hobby project, so they stopped doing it and will turn to work on a more profitable project. Undestandable and not a big loss.
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Devoyd
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:30:00 -
[162]
That's too bad, Capsuleer was my most used app on my iPhone. You will be missed!
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Steveir
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:56:00 -
[163]
I use this app nearly every day; so this is really bad news :( Hopefully CCP and you guys can work out a deal as this really sucks, and everyone loses out here, user, apps writers, and CCP. If only we could bang a few head together here, clearly this should be fixable.
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Crias Taylor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:59:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Steveir I use this app nearly every day; so this is really bad news :( Hopefully CCP and you guys can work out a deal as this really sucks, and everyone loses out here, user, apps writers, and CCP. If only we could bang a few head together here, clearly this should be fixable.
Not going to happen after this thread :D
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Tekei
Woopatang Primary.
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:01:00 -
[165]
I've used Capsuleer every day since I installed it and it is by far the most app I have on my phone. I will really miss this app for the blog pack if nothing else.
Reading the blogs while travelling, or simply not just at home has taught me more about eve than anything else and it has definitely helped my motivation to find new interesting things to do in-game as well. (I know much of that is due to all the awesome blogs in the blog pack, but I just don't read a lot of blogs from my home computer since I spend my time doing other stuff, but through Capsuleer it was just so easy to find an interesting read.)
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Trimmok
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:09:00 -
[166]
So what the hell am I meant to read at work now,
Was a very good app thanks for all the work you put into it.
Will be missed very much.
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Dorn Val
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:15:00 -
[167]
I have Capsuleer on my home row at the bottom of my iPhone screen since I use it so much. REALLY sucks that I'll be forced to down grade to iClone :(
To CCP: Eve Gate is slow and doesn't format well on a mobile device so I rarely use it when on the road...
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Krispy Dingo
Minmatar Strangers in a Strange Land
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:21:00 -
[168]
As I said earlier, I am sad to see Capsuleer go, but there are a few things:
- You can still read the blog pack/announcements/devblogs. Go get NetNewsWire. It will sync with google reader and you can add the blog pack to it through a link on CKs page and subscribe to the CCP feeds from their pages.
- iClone has come a long way, and I remember reading that the dev is planning on making it so you don't have to update everything when you launch the app.
- If you want web based, EVE Commander is supposed to be creating a mobile version. Go to http://www.eve-commander.com/history.cfm and scroll to Yet To Do at the bottom. No timeline, but that doesn't mean it won't be there soonÖ.
- And this is one I have often wondered myself, what good does it really do you to monitor your accounts on your iPhone? I have the ability to VNC into my home PC from anywhere, launch EVE, and update queues, but I know not everyone can do that. Just a random question, reallyà
- Where is the correlation between Capsuleer and EVE Gate? SpaceBook and a training monitor with RSS reader(I know, it wasn't REALLY an RSS reader, there was back end **** on the server) are not alike. At all.
- Other stuff.
_____________________________ http://twitter.com/krispy_dingo http://krispydingo.com |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.05 20:51:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Roc Wieler
CCP was gracious enough to fly Chris and Marcus to Iceland for Fanfest, to discuss business opportunities between CCP and Capsuleer. CCP expressed their genuine excitement and interest in working with Marcus and Chris in some capacity, and committed to internal research to see what could be done to accommodate a business relationship.
...
A subscription based platform for full API functionality was proposed to CCP to monetize Capsuleer, while keeping limited API features free for all users.
This reads to me like the Capsuleer devs asked CCP for tiered/subscription based API access for devs with a business relationship with CCP. This would imply that some apps/developers had preferential treatment from CCP and had access to more/better data than everyone else with free apps. Roc, can you clarify this a bit?
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Reiko Yamamoto
Shiva
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Posted - 2010.10.05 21:09:00 -
[170]
Petition up- bring back 'capsuleer'!
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1394479
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Ma'kal
The Imperial Commonwealth Damage Control II
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Posted - 2010.10.05 21:36:00 -
[171]
This really makes me sad. This app was a very helpful tool in the arsenal of an Eve player. Part of me wonders if CCP is developing their own app and has hence lost interest in this application.
If that is the reason well it makes sense to do something yourself rather than dish it out to a third party if you can profit yourself. But, if CCP isn't communicating or working with you just cause, that would just be too bad. Because I really enjoy your app.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2010.10.05 21:36:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Reiko Yamamoto Petition up- bring back 'capsuleer'!
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1394479
It has absolutely NOTHING to do with CCP. It's 2 crybabies packing up their toys and going home because they aren't getting permission to make money off CCP's intellectual property. **** em, they want to be juvenile about it find something else written by non-spoiled brats.
I would do absolutely nothing about it if I were CCP, the attitude and premise they developed the app under was selfish and completely unrealistic.
If they truly cared about it they would just let someone else take over the development if they're no longer interested in doing anything further with it.
CCP won't give a **** about your petition and they shouldn't either. It's not in their best interest to cater to 2 crybabies like that, and the ramifications of allowing people to profit from their IP is not in CCP's best interest.
You should be petitioning the authors, not CCP.
Originally by: captain foivos Who would recruit someone named Barakkus?
Wait a minute...
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Esker Sheep
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Posted - 2010.10.05 22:02:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Esker Sheep on 05/10/2010 22:03:18 I've used Capsuleer since it was released. I've now deleted it.
It was always unrealistic to invest vast amounts of time in development, expecting to be able to monetize it, without something in writing from CCP. That's just business reality.
I don't understand why it the current version has to be removed. You still play EVE right, does it really cost that much to run the server needed to provide the news feeds and occasional skill updates? That part smacks of throwing the baby out with the bath water. You guys made yourselves a good name, and generated a lot of goodwill, the lack of future development would be understood, the removing of the current version will just loose you all that goodwill.
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ToJoBo
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Posted - 2010.10.05 23:49:00 -
[174]
I'll check with my IP lawyer when I next speak to him, but AFAIK, as long as no unattributed trademarks are used or any non-public information shown, there's no IP conflict.
Essentially, Capsuleer is just another HTTP user agent. It happens to understand a specific XML format and transform the results in a way that is different than how a browser transforms it, but unless Opera or Firefox is causing a conflict, an iPhone app that parses the API results can't be a conflict.
Now, I think Capsuleer does aggressive transformations with their own servers (acting as middleware), so there could be some claims against "republishing" or "derivative" information if they aren't acting as a simple, "dumb" HTTP cache. Still, ultimately, the app sends some HTTP requests and parses the results, showing them as something other than plain text. Plenty of precedents with browsers showing that such use is fair. It's a specialized browser.
Aside from the spurious claims that displaying info via a special type of browser (aka, Capsuleer) is an IP conflict, there's a logical error in the monetization discussion. If commercial "use" of the Eve API is an issue, it doesn't matter if it's a paid app, micropayments, advertising, or branded sponsorship. It's either ok to make cash, or not. And it would have to be enforced universally by CCP - sending a cease and desist to every site with an ad or PLEX sale link or with AdSense running - all within a window of time.
I've just gone through this with my own IP protection. Implicit consent exists (in US courts) if the IP owner knows of a conflict but fails to serve notice within a "reasonable" amount of time.
CCP has obviously not done this with sites, nor did they (apparently) with the use of ads in Capsuleer. An IP owner can't retroactively pick and choose revenue sources or methods. It's either PERMIT USE, or DO NOT PERMIT USE.
I think the whole thing is either:
1. Smoke and mirrors by the Capsuleer team (doubtful) 2. CCP acting as a bully and the Capsuleer team not having an IP lawyer on retainer (likely) 3. The use not being understood on a technical level (more likely with the end user than CCP or Capsuleer) 4. Some infringement that may exist in the architecture of Capsuleer specifically. Bundling a CCP-provided DB with the app that may have certain licenses, for example. (very likely) 5. The use of trademarks owned by CCP that may lead a reasonable consumer to believe Capsuleer is a CCP product (good claim here if CCP wanted to pursue it.)
Ultimately, embedding a WebView in an app that shows raw API result calls would be considered a (very limited) browser. Decorating those results with art NOT owned by CCP should fall within the same fair use.
Again - IANAL but I have been neck deep in this type of thing lately.
I also have to admit that, though I've read the "Website terms of service" for eveonline.com, I've not seen a license for the API yet - so there could be very, very specific prohibitions I've not yet found. The "Website" TOS forbids linking from anywhere but another site's "homepage" - seemingly an incredibly antiquated, useless, boilerplate TOS that wouldn't stand in a US court, given prior precedents.
I'll dig into an API license when I can find it.
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Professor Garvey
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.10.05 23:55:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Originally by: Woodspoon CCP YOU SUCK!
Capsuleer is/was an awesome app Stalling or just failing to get in contact with the Capsuleer team after saying how great you thought it was is a real crappy move. CCP was a small company once that needed help and someone helped you.
Congrats CCP you've ****ed off a few hundred of loyal apple users.
FYP.
I don't see this as a big deal. One service provider of a few that produce a similar service stopped providing a service. So what? They want a job instead of working on a hobby project, so they stopped doing it and will turn to work on a more profitable project. Undestandable and not a big loss.
It's not CCP's decision to pull the app from the itunes store. You can leave free apps in the store forever if you want to. They must have other motivations for pulling the app all together.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.06 00:07:00 -
[176]
Originally by: ToJoBo
I think the whole thing is either:
1. Smoke and mirrors by the Capsuleer team (doubtful, but something is strange) 2. CCP acting as a bully and the Capsuleer team not having an IP lawyer on retainer (likely) 3. The use not being understood on a technical level (more likely with the end user than CCP or Capsuleer) 4. Some infringement that may exist in the architecture of Capsuleer specifically. Bundling a CCP-provided DB with the app that may have certain licenses, for example. (very likely) 5. The use of trademarks owned by CCP that may lead a reasonable consumer to believe Capsuleer is a CCP product (good claim here if CCP wanted to pursue it.)
I mostly agree but: 1. I don't know why they would do this unless they're trying to pull some sort of 'power play'. I may be uncharitable, but I don't see that happening either. 2. This is very unlikely, given that the Capsuleer devs are the ones chasing down CCP devs trying to get a response. They even specifically stated that CCP simply isn't moving. 3. I don't see why *me* understanding anything would cause them to pull the app? Can you elaborate a bit on that? 4. I don't see why it's likely that CCP gave them any CCP owned code? 5. It's probably the fear of this which is keeping them from monetizing it IMO.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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SRSLYOMG
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Posted - 2010.10.06 00:20:00 -
[177]
Edited by: SRSLYOMG on 06/10/2010 00:21:17 nm
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ToJoBo
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Posted - 2010.10.06 00:24:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: ToJoBo
I think the whole thing is either:
1. Smoke and mirrors by the Capsuleer team (doubtful, but something is strange) 2. CCP acting as a bully and the Capsuleer team not having an IP lawyer on retainer (likely) 3. The use not being understood on a technical level (more likely with the end user than CCP or Capsuleer) 4. Some infringement that may exist in the architecture of Capsuleer specifically. Bundling a CCP-provided DB with the app that may have certain licenses, for example. (very likely) 5. The use of trademarks owned by CCP that may lead a reasonable consumer to believe Capsuleer is a CCP product (good claim here if CCP wanted to pursue it.)
I mostly agree but: 1. I don't know why they would do this unless they're trying to pull some sort of 'power play'. I may be uncharitable, but I don't see that happening either. 2. This is very unlikely, given that the Capsuleer devs are the ones chasing down CCP devs trying to get a response. They even specifically stated that CCP simply isn't moving. 3. I don't see why *me* understanding anything would cause them to pull the app? Can you elaborate a bit on that? 4. I don't see why it's likely that CCP gave them any CCP owned code? 5. It's probably the fear of this which is keeping them from monetizing it IMO.
-Liang
Liang - on #3 - I meant something like, "If the Capsuleer devs don't understand the distinction between bundling IP and creating a conduit for content over HTTP that in no way bypasses authentication or misrepresents the nature of said content, its origins, or its ownership" then gave the caveat that this isn't really likely given how smart the Capsuleer guys (and CCP lawyers) are. Just making the point that to a layman, the inner workings of the app and line between the API responses being rendered vs distributed may be blurry.
My general assumption is that Capsuleer has some solid fair use grounds, but also has some very sticky details, like bundling CCP-owned data with the app and using CCP marks and generally being consistent enough with the Eve brand that reasonable consumers may be confused as to the origins of the app (I was for a while!)
It's never a slam dunk, given that judges rarely know their tech inside and out, but one thing still swings in favor of Capsuleer: users submit their credentials (id and API key) and the app acts on their behalf as a simple browser. If they initiate a request directly from their device to the CCP servers, using their own account credentials, I think the browser wars of the 90's set enough precedents that Capsuleer is safe.
If Capsuleer is twisting that data around on its own servers, they may have something to remedy. Though I think there are still angles to play there.
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Ix Forres
Caldari Righteous Chaps
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Posted - 2010.10.06 00:31:00 -
[179]
Edited by: Ix Forres on 06/10/2010 00:35:43
Originally by: Niraia
Originally by: Ix Forres
Originally by: Niraia Writing free software while you starve to death is common sense? Wouldn't it make more sense to just release later so you can eat? That's necessity. This is bull****.
Uh, read my post? Common sense is to _not_ write your free app which takes up all your time, or to try and do it in conjunction with a paying job and the rest of your life. For some of us, that's not a viable option - there are other things that take priority.
I agree, but they did it anyway, and now they seem to be all whiney about not making money, pulling the app rather than leaving it in its current state. Why didn't this guy continue development at a slower pace to fit in with the rest of his life? If he didn't have any spare time, why not release the source and let others with more time keep it alive? It comes across as selfish and childish, thus my greed comment.
Ah - I see where you're coming from. There are, however, some other reasons - as I understand it, open source and the app store are like oil and water. There's also the main expense from Sam's POV which is that Capsuleer is not an API reader, so much as an API receiver - it works mainly using push notifications from a server which they operate.
To migrate that push server would require Capsuleer to be modified and resubmitted to the app store etc, accounts to be re-added by users (since the push server would have to be a clean copy - moving API keys in the thousands between owners isn't something you'd want to do) and so on. It's a lot of work - probably as much as would be entailed in just continuing to maintain it for another few months. Even just publishing source would take a lot of work - you'd have to document what isn't documented, clean things up, probably finish features that were in-development. Doesn't make sense. It may come across as selfish and childish but there's perfectly good reasons why they're not doing what you've suggested outside of greed.
Originally by: Professor Garvey It's not CCP's decision to pull the app from the itunes store. You can leave free apps in the store forever if you want to. The developers have other reasons for pulling the app.
I'll give you guys a hint, it starts with 't' and rhymes with 'hry to use the court of public opinion for force CCP to give us money'.
See my above statement - running the push notification server which Capsuleer requires is an active monthly cost. Leave the app there forever and you have to run the server forever, with a cost over the year probably in the ú1000 ballpark. Taking the app down is preferable to leaving a half-broken app there with their name on it. -- Ix Forres - 3rd Party Application Developer - EVE Metrics - accVIEW
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Damassys Kadesh
Amarr Eternal Damnation of the Woken Mind
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Posted - 2010.10.06 00:32:00 -
[180]
I use Capsuleer every day! I was very much displeased to hear this news. If anything can be done to keep it going, I'm all for it!
silentbob17 on xFire Hit-Or-Miss <--- Check this out |
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