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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.30 20:16:00 -
[721]
Originally by: Rhinanna
Quote: oh yes? my hurricane fit can use 2 medium smarties just fine.
The range of large smart bombs is what allows them to block missiles effectively.
Hint: http://killboard.the-initiative.com/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=80144
they are using medium smarties too.
Quote:
Quote: and there are more counters to them. range would be one of them. a burned out missile wouldnt do any damage to you. sadly in current laggy situations stuff like LR hacs dont work so well.
The whole point of this is that you can't fight drakes at range..... A long range HAC fleet will get owned by a drake fleet for this exact reason. Running away where you can't do any damage to the drakes isn't a counter.... its simply running away.
a smart LR hac gang will stay at 90km from the drakes. show me what drakes will hit at that range. and they are even faster the drakes and can dictate range. =)
Quote:
Quote: anyway ... in current laggy situations drake slip over their own locking range often enough. also it can happen easily that their missiles burn out before hitting
And generally in these sort of situation the drake is the only craft that can hit anything at all, so its still performing better than anything else.
sure most BC fleets will have that problem. but LR BS fleets e.g. wont.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.30 21:00:00 -
[722]
Edited by: Exploited Engineer on 30/10/2010 21:02:02
Originally by: Rhinanna The whole point of this is that you can't fight drakes at range.....
Drakes get no range bonuses for their missiles. Anything that can fire HMs/HMLs and gets some sort of range bonus (starting with Caracals) can out-range a Drake. Anything that fires cruise missiles can, too. Did I mention that buffer- or passive-tanked Drakes have huge signatures?
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Franziskaner Dunkel
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Posted - 2010.10.30 21:35:00 -
[723]
Originally by: Bad Messenger i noticed that those were so overpower that it was worth to invest such amount of isk for a drake.
So you admit they're overpowered. Checkmate
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Treslor
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Posted - 2010.10.31 00:20:00 -
[724]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer Heck. If you're expecting a Drake gang, bring a Caracal gang.
Yes, for every 150k EHP 400 DPs bc they bring, you can counter it in a 33K EHP 200 dps cruiser! And if you just sit at 100-120km away, you definitely won't get lolbubbled by an on-grid prober and then watch the drakes either warp in or mwd 20-40km closer to begin your ass-kicking
What a fantastic idea, obviously it worked out great for you and isn't an armchair theory you just made up*
*May contain sarcasm
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2010.10.31 01:01:00 -
[725]
Quote: Drakes get no range bonuses for their missiles. Anything that can fire HMs/HMLs and gets some sort of range bonus (starting with Caracals) can out-range a Drake.
Except they can't lock at their max range. Drakes can without having to use a low or mid boosting their lock range. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Rellana
DAB Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.31 02:26:00 -
[726]
Personally I don't see what all the whining about. If you nerf drakes you take away just about the only good ship Caldari have left for PVP,as CCP has already nerfed all our other good ships after the cruise,ecm and torp nerf/s to the point where no-one flies them anymore. The drake can be countered easily as INIT showed with there firewall setup,and PL countered them with Pulse apoc's as well. If the other races battlecruisers are so bad,I'd say they need to be rebalanced so they have something comparable to the drake,sure fix the Missile lag issue,but leave the drake alone please CCP..
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lupusmoon
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Posted - 2010.10.31 04:15:00 -
[727]
ived noticed alot of ppl comparing BC's(drake) to HAC's.
while it might be fun for the numbers a HAC is a class below a BC and should not have the same dps/tank etc of a BC.
otherwise i say all ship are underpowered since none can go 1v1 with Supercaps.
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Keras Authion
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Posted - 2010.10.31 06:07:00 -
[728]
Originally by: Treslor
Originally by: Exploited Engineer Heck. If you're expecting a Drake gang, bring a Caracal gang.
Yes, for every 150k EHP 400 DPs bc they bring, you can counter it in a 33K EHP 200 dps cruiser! And if you just sit at 100-120km away, you definitely won't get lolbubbled by an on-grid prober and then watch the drakes either warp in or mwd 20-40km closer to begin your ass-kicking
What a fantastic idea, obviously it worked out great for you and isn't an armchair theory you just made up*
*May contain sarcasm
So, why aren't you lolbubbling the drakes and melting them with more powerful short-range weapons? Seems like a logical choice. Or maybe lolbubble the drakes too and your faster cruisers can still maintain their range.
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VC General
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Posted - 2010.10.31 08:04:00 -
[729]
Edited by: VC General on 31/10/2010 08:09:38 I'm getting tired of this debate, so I am going to share this revolutionary strategy to use against these types of fleets.....FOR FREE!!! There are these cheap ships no one flies anymore called S-C-O-R-P-I-O-N-S. If your enemy is bringing 200 of the exact same **** fit 75KM range BC to every fight, all you need is about 20 Scorpion pilots sitting at 100km with a rack of Caldari ECM, and you automatically win.
Needless to say, since everyone thinks Scorpions suck, that means I am the only person with an active account that can actually fly one. It will take you guys about a month to train for it, and then another week or so till the Drake blobs are no longer the FotM. At that point, you can go back to pwning everything with your Zealots. All you whiners are welcome in advance.
Oh on a side note, for Scourge Fury to do full damage to a cruiser-sized target, it requires a web and about 4 TP's active on the target. It can't be done purely with TP'ing. Even if you have 50 Drakes painting the same guy, it loses about 30% of it's max damage. The OP's **** fit vs say a Zealot, would do about 200-300 DPS with perfect skills and both painters running.
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Arzamor
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.31 08:23:00 -
[730]
Originally by: Valarre How about instead of nerfing drakes we make the other battlecruisers better. For example the worthless bruitx, and ferox. Although they are still technically the tier 1 bc's. I don't know the myrmiddon is awesome, the hurricane is awesome, and so is the harbinger. Actually tbh you are full of crap, all the tier 2 bc's are pretty damned good. Drakes don't need a nerf.
T2 Blaster Brutix with T2 ammo and a couple magstabs in low? Melt-your-face Damage tank is the best kind.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.31 08:45:00 -
[731]
Originally by: Keras Authion So, why aren't you lolbubbling the drakes and melting them with more powerful short-range weapons?
Or MWD away yourself when the Drakes give chase? Last I heard lolbubbles don't affect MWDs, and in a race between a Caracal and a Drake, my money's on the Caracal.
Also, if the Drakes chase you, their effective range drops and your effective range (if using missiles) increases.
Additionally, keep the difference in cost in mind. For one fitted Drake, you can get, what, three or four fitted Caracals?
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Treslor
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Posted - 2010.10.31 09:52:00 -
[732]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer Or MWD away yourself when the Drakes give chase? Last I heard lolbubbles don't affect MWDs, and in a race between a Caracal and a Drake, my money's on the Caracal.
Those 33k EHP caracals with 220 DPS I was telling you about become 24k EHP 179 DPS caracals if you try to fit a mwd on there. They, unlike the drake, pay for their long range advantage.
Quote: Additionally, keep the difference in cost in mind. For one fitted Drake, you can get, what, three or four fitted Caracals?
Keep the difference in pilots in mind. For three or four players flying caracals, you could've had three or four players flying drakes instead. If the enemy has 300 drakes, you'd need 900-1200 caracals to beat them if we only look at isk cost. On the other hand, if you put all those caracal pilots into drakes instead, you'd have 900-1200 drakes for relatively tiny cost difference and smash the enemy anyway. So why the hell would you be flying caracals? Assuming you could even convince 900-1200 players to fly them in the first place
No, not really a realistic counter
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it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.10.31 10:40:00 -
[733]
leave drakes as is and use them to kill the motherships that are invincible. that should make everyone happy right? CCP supports this message. I think. |
Okuu Reiuji
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Posted - 2010.10.31 10:47:00 -
[734]
Huh, what kind of missiles were fired in LXQ yesterday? *Sarcasm*
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.10.31 11:16:00 -
[735]
Originally by: VC General Edited by: VC General on 31/10/2010 08:09:38 I'm getting tired of this debate, so I am going to share this revolutionary strategy to use against these types of fleets.....FOR FREE!!! There are these cheap ships no one flies anymore called S-C-O-R-P-I-O-N-S. If your enemy is bringing 200 of the exact same **** fit 75KM range BC to every fight, all you need is about 20 Scorpion pilots sitting at 100km with a rack of Caldari ECM, and you automatically win.
Needless to say, since everyone thinks Scorpions suck, that means I am the only person with an active account that can actually fly one. It will take you guys about a month to train for it, and then another week or so till the Drake blobs are no longer the FotM. At that point, you can go back to pwning everything with your Zealots. All you whiners are welcome in advance.
Oh on a side note, for Scourge Fury to do full damage to a cruiser-sized target, it requires a web and about 4 TP's active on the target. It can't be done purely with TP'ing. Even if you have 50 Drakes painting the same guy, it loses about 30% of it's max damage. The OP's **** fit vs say a Zealot, would do about 200-300 DPS with perfect skills and both painters running.
You try coordinating 20 scorps against 100 targets lol. And under your logic, scorps counter everything.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.10.31 11:30:00 -
[736]
Originally by: Aerilis You try coordinating 20 scorps against 100 targets lol. And under your logic, scorps counter everything.
FOF missiles, Smartbombs, ...
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Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2010.10.31 17:48:00 -
[737]
Originally by: Aerilis You try coordinating 20 scorps against 100 targets lol. And under your logic, scorps counter everything.
If you manage to do that you have a skilled group of people doing some stuff, it does not really matter what those skilled 20 people are flying they can still engage larger numbers successfully.
Without trying or without training things you are just a whiny loser who have to ask nerf for a drake.
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.10.31 19:52:00 -
[738]
If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
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Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.10.31 21:02:00 -
[739]
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.31 21:45:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
you mean like this?;)
Quote:
[Hurricane, firewall] Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Power Diagnostic System II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor M Medium 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge Medium 'Vehemence' I Shockwave Charge
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
needs a few fitting implants but well. armor hacs with smart bombs are way more interesting. though I had no time to work on fittings for those yet.
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Cosmic Brownies
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Posted - 2010.10.31 22:41:00 -
[741]
Originally by: darius mclever
you mean like this?;)
Inferior range and the other half of the firewall was using sensor damps to shut out drakes. Oh and medium smartbombs suck.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.31 22:59:00 -
[742]
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: darius mclever
you mean like this?;)
Inferior range and the other half of the firewall was using sensor damps to shut out drakes. Oh and medium smartbombs suck.
they were also using armor tanks.... but i leave that to your own creativity. regarding the medium smart bombs ... I would suggest you look at the init killboard what they are using. and maybe also check how much dmg a medium smart does and how many HP HML have.
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DeadNite
Caldari The Inferno Legions SCUM.
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Posted - 2010.11.01 04:31:00 -
[743]
I say while we are "tuning" the Drake, I say we tune every other ship class in the game to make Caldari ships more competitive.
There is nothing balanced about fleet warfare. The bigger blob wins as long as they are not being stupid. Can't compete at 75KM? How about stop engaging at a range where you can't compete. Quit being a bunch of pussies and warp to 0 so your ships can do what they were made to do. Drakes can't compete with other ships inside 20KM.
Where is your ECW? Jammers? Webers? Neuts?
What, you think because there are 500 people on the battlefield the only tactics are calling out primary? You guys crack me up with the whining every time the FOTM changes.
Since all that matters is EHP, range, and DPS I propose to "Tune" Hurricanes next because of this capability up close that the Drake does not have.
[Hurricane, OP Close PvP Hurricane] Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M 425mm AutoCannon II, Hail M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Hobgoblin II x5
Assuming all Vs with no implants and someone who didn't just roll out of the Academy leading:
EHP: 104K+ (109k+ on fire) DPS: 551(618 on fire) close up - Hail M DPS: 454 (507 on fire) at about 20KM - Barrage M
Lets trade an Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II for another Gyrostabilizer II.
EHP: 95+K+ (100k+ on fire) DPS: 638(718 on fire) up close - Hail M DPS: 522 (586 on fire) within 21KM - Barrage M
Yep. You can drop another EANM if you want to crank it up to 700+ (800 on fire), but then you actually come just under the EHP of a Drake.
So adding implants and drugs into the equation and you realize that this was not a fair comparison to begin with.
TL:DR - Do more than call primary. Weakness in attitude becomes weakness of character. -AE |
cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.11.01 04:36:00 -
[744]
problem with damps is if you are outnumbered you cant really target and damp all the ships. but with smartbpmbs you can pretty much block the majority of incoming DPS and render those missiles useless, while the rest of your fleet inside the firewall can be fitted for pure DPS> no smartbombs needed.
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Bobbechk
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2010.11.01 06:53:00 -
[745]
Originally by: DeadNite
EHP: 95+K+ (100k+ on fire) DPS: 638(718 on fire) up close - Hail M DPS: 522 (586 on fire) within 21KM - Barrage M
It would seem the realistic DPS output you would get when using HAIL M is closers to 5 then 638 shooting anything other then a structure
also your calculation for Barrage M at 20km is way off and really only does 300 DPS (tho really only 200 subtracting drone damage) ________
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.01 07:18:00 -
[746]
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
This pretty much sums up the arguments of the anti drake crowd. They say the drake should in every possible situation be outclassed by other BCs, and never be the best option.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.01 16:08:00 -
[747]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
This pretty much sums up the arguments of the anti drake crowd. They say the drake should in every possible situation be outclassed by other BCs, and never be the best option.
Quoted for honesty, truth, and facts. The drake detractors are SERIOUSLY butthurt that the drake has a situational "best in class" role in fleets. Not merely because it's caldari, but also because it's a missile launcher platform (a tiny minority of ship population). They see in the drake something they completely FAILED to skill for ahead of time and now they are RAAGEEing to the heavens for it to stop.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:33:00 -
[748]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk
Originally by: Furb Killer
Originally by: Cosmic Brownies
Originally by: cyndrogen If you think drakes need a nerf take a look at this video:
firewall
As you can see even a small fleet can rip through this drake wall with innovative fittings.
Oh you mean a fleet of BS's? Try the firewall with arty canes and then we'll talk.
This pretty much sums up the arguments of the anti drake crowd. They say the drake should in every possible situation be outclassed by other BCs, and never be the best option.
Quoted for honesty, truth, and facts. The drake detractors are SERIOUSLY butthurt that the drake has a situational "best in class" role in fleets. Not merely because it's caldari, but also because it's a missile launcher platform (a tiny minority of ship population). They see in the drake something they completely FAILED to skill for ahead of time and now they are RAAGEEing to the heavens for it to stop.
Who would have thought? A missile BC that actually works in a gang? I have known for some time that the Drake has some good roles, but it has taken the rest of EVE about two years to do the same (about the time I joined EVE Drakes were regarded as noob stuff because people consistently fail fitted it). And now that they suddenly are faced with well fitted Drakes, their cookie cutter setups might need some tweaking, so they rage.
Its actually quite pathetic. Besides, Caldari is supposed to have good fleet ships, and what is wrong with Caldari having the best fleet BC? Some BC gotta be the best at that role after all, and tbh Caldari don't have many "the best" ships to speak off.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
it440
Caldari OZ industries and Technology
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Posted - 2010.11.01 19:48:00 -
[749]
Edited by: it440 on 01/11/2010 19:51:07
really good points here on the argument.
quote Furb Killer: "This pretty much sums up the arguments of the anti drake crowd. They say the drake should in every possible situation be outclassed by other BCs, and never be the best option."
quote Leksi Bar'zuk: " They see in the drake something they completely FAILED to skill for ahead of time and now they are RAAGEEing to the heavens for it to stop."
quote Sidus Isaacs: "what is wrong with Caldari having the best fleet BC? Some BC gotta be the best at that role after all, and tbh Caldari don't have many "the best" ships to speak off."
CCP supports this message. I think. |
OT Smithers
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Posted - 2010.11.01 23:49:00 -
[750]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs
Its actually quite pathetic. Besides, Caldari is supposed to have good fleet ships, and what is wrong with Caldari having the best fleet BC? Some BC gotta be the best at that role after all, and tbh Caldari don't have many "the best" ships to speak off.
Their horror is understandable... they are not used to seeing Caldari have the best or anything. THEY get the best, Caldari gets less. And once they have successfully castrated the Drake they will go back to their usual role of assuring new Caldari pilots that their ships are just fine.
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