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Marshiro
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:16:00 -
[1]
Wealth and income inequality is growing in Eve, and I would say it is growing at a far faster rate then real life. While the vast majority of Eve players are making money with their labor and often have a hard time keeping up with plex and combat losses, the "savers" expands their income potential endlessly and laughs at numbers that a "spaceship flyer" or new player can generate.
Recently I've stumbled up on this thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1384666
And what does it represent? Some 15+b/month of pure passive income. Now, the captial involved is some 500b to 1t+, which isn't small, but such capital stock can not be grinded or labored up in any reasonable amounts of time, it must come from heavily captial leveraged income sources. At things like 15+b/month, plus other income, it is not unimagineable that such operations can completely fill most captial intensive niches after running a few more years, given that the field does not expand massively in that time and generate absurd rich amongst the rich.
Now, many of MD wouldn't care if a few individuals combined control the assets exceeding the bottom 80% of players and have incomes exceeding the bottom 40% combined, but I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. For all the talk about blobbing, the truth is that the bottom is growing more and more functionally irrelevant ever since the supercap era, and can only be more so as cap lines expand in number and function. Supers are far more captial intensive than labor, and with finite grid load limits, impossible to counter with cheap junk. Is there much that is more discouraging then knowing the you are relatively useless in generating income or showing up on the combat grid?
Broken captial markets means skillful newcomers can not access capital, and the existence of solely a fixed value tax (plex) means the rich are almost completely not taxed makes the eve world even more unfair to labor then real life.
What should be done about this?
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Muffin Tops
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:22:00 -
[2]
Please be a troll.
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Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:24:00 -
[3]
Is it because I'm Amarrian?
Grendell ♥
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:25:00 -
[4]
Nothing. This is Eve, not WoW.
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Tanmoe
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:25:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Marshiro What should be done about this?
Do we need to do something about it?
As u said EvE is unfair ...
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Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:38:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Marshiro
And what does it represent? Some 15+b/month of pure passive income. Now, the captial involved is some 500b to 1t+, which isn't small, but such capital stock can not be grinded or labored up in any reasonable amounts of time, it must come from heavily captial leveraged income sources. At things like 15+b/month, plus other income, it is not unimagineable that such operations can completely fill most captial intensive niches after running a few more years, given that the field does not expand massively in that time and generate absurd rich amongst the rich.
On a more serious note, the net worth of that pile of BPO's is closer to 1.5T, the monthly income would be closer to about 20b/month. But just like anybody else with that sort of wealth, it was started from nothing and grinded up to what it is now.
Anybody can do it with enough determination and hard work. Grendell ♥
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Dasubervixen
Amarr
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:39:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Marshiro What should be done about this?
Nothing.
Anything done within the rules of the game is NOT griefing. Get over it. |
Business Classy
Business Class Investments
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:43:00 -
[8]
Why are you calling this a curse?
Anyway, the poor don't get poorer, so there's no 'problem' that requires a solution. There are plenty of opportunities for those who are poor to rise up out of the trap with some brain power or luck, that's all that's needed, and its present.
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Estel Arador
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:47:00 -
[9]
I'm sure making everyone equally rich will be the solution.
Free universal jumpclone service: 10.000 users! |
Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar Eighty Joule Brewery
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:50:00 -
[10]
The only part of this that is really a problem is how ridiculously overpowered supercarriers are and how easily they let you convert an isk advantage into a pvp advantage.
TLDR: nerf SCs.
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Countesss
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:58:00 -
[11]
If there was ever a server restart wiping all assets and money. I can guarantee a year or 2 down the line, the same rich players from before the restart would still become the rich players a year later.
It's about knowledge, taking opportunities when they arise(not lack of opportunities), and busting your behind to get there.
Try it. If you're a poor ******, find a rich guy. Start 2 new characters and compare who will have more isk a year own the line. You'll see the guy who was rich before will be rich again.
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Imperator Principes
Minmatar SSGS Marketing and Analysis
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Posted - 2010.10.05 16:58:00 -
[12]
Confirming I am a poor person who is getting richer.
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Victor Michaelle
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:00:00 -
[13]
I don't think the Eve economy is more unfair than real life. RP whise, sure, but not among players. Quite the opposite.
In Eve, it is relatively easy for a poor person to work him/herself up to middle class. There are no unavoidable traps such as house loans like there is irl, so all the work you do is pure income. That is unless you count plex as a mandatory way to fuel your account, but you really shouldn't.
The rich gets richer, sure. You also make a fairly good argument for why the semi-rich would get less rich. But no, I don't think the poor is getting any poorer.
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Jovialmadness
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:05:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jovialmadness on 05/10/2010 17:06:25
Originally by: Marshiro Wealth and income inequality is growing in Eve, and I would say it is growing at a far faster rate then real life. While the vast majority of Eve players are making money with their labor and often have a hard time keeping up with plex and combat losses, the "savers" expands their income potential endlessly and laughs at numbers that a "spaceship flyer" or new player can generate.
Recently I've stumbled up on this thread: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1384666
And what does it represent? Some 15+b/month of pure passive income. Now, the captial involved is some 500b to 1t+, which isn't small, but such capital stock can not be grinded or labored up in any reasonable amounts of time, it must come from heavily captial leveraged income sources. At things like 15+b/month, plus other income, it is not unimagineable that such operations can completely fill most captial intensive niches after running a few more years, given that the field does not expand massively in that time and generate absurd rich amongst the rich.
Now, many of MD wouldn't care if a few individuals combined control the assets exceeding the bottom 80% of players and have incomes exceeding the bottom 40% combined, but I'm not so sure if this is a good thing. For all the talk about blobbing, the truth is that the bottom is growing more and more functionally irrelevant ever since the supercap era, and can only be more so as cap lines expand in number and function. Supers are far more captial intensive than labor, and with finite grid load limits, impossible to counter with cheap junk. Is there much that is more discouraging then knowing the you are relatively useless in generating income or showing up on the combat grid?
Broken captial markets means skillful newcomers can not access capital, and the existence of solely a fixed value tax (plex) means the rich are almost completely not taxed makes the eve world even more unfair to labor then real life.
What should be done about this?
I am finding it difficult that you could write that massive thing yet still are unable to grasp that its your thinking that is broke and not eve.
Feel free to reply to this at your liesure so we can discuss why you think a vindicator and mothership should be in everyones garage.
Hugs n' kisses
Jovial |
Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:10:00 -
[15]
Um... how much wealth do you need? Between 4 accounts that my friends and I have, we manage a large POS, make plenty of ISK in manufacturing, and can still have the POS run cost free through 1.5 days of ice mining and the PI work of one character. We make a decent amount of ISK each week, and well, this has been accomplished in 9 months of playing. So really, why is it so hard to work your way up?
Yeah, we canĘt compete with a super cap production alliance, but we do pretty well given the time put in. It helps fund PvP and other goof off activities in EVE and seems to be going well. So really, why do you feel something must be done? Given time, we could work up to capital production of our own. Heck, we did make our own Orca. So really, why do you feel itĘs not possible to work your way up to such a grand goal and why do you feel that something has to be done? It seems like if you work at it, you can accomplish any goal in this game given time, which is as it should be.
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Julian Koll
The Kollektive
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:14:00 -
[16]
is it this time of the week again?
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Nikolai Kondratiev
Jita's Secure Credit and Assets Management
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:19:00 -
[17]
So not everyone is running in sets of T12 epic armor sets and able to do/build anything ingame as good as everyone else. So what ? _ Mining Crystal BPOs Angel Ships |
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Grendell Is it because I'm Amarrian?
Isn't it always?? Lower life forms striving to be the TRUE power of New Eden! Since they where not blessed by the maker and chosen to be Amarrian they slander us at every chance! While we may not be able to crush our enemies with Technology, we'll simply destroy them with our Financial Prowess! Buy up their Technology and obliterate them with their own weapons why willingly sold to us just so they could get a taste what it means to be Amarrian!
Amarr for Life |
Rich Aurillia
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:35:00 -
[19]
Raise taxes, EVE run healthcare - make the fatcats pay!!!!!
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Marshiro
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:36:00 -
[20]
The problem is the power of snowballing wealth and the resulting power that comes from it. This does not form a problem on a individual level, but also organizational level. (but that is for CAOD)
You know, it is very disturbing to think: "The best way for me to become 'useful at pvp' " is to save up enough isk to fuel trade/passive income to generate billions fast. That way, you maximize your "combat power per hour" by throwing more isk onto grid. It is certainly much, much less fun than spending time on EFT, figuring out tactics and working with people to work out a smooth battle plans. No, if you don't care about KB efficiency then the best strategy is to sit in a station moving your billions.
Its a far cry from the combat pilots that I've seen which tell me "go do rvb, go do fw and lose 500 rifters so you know what you are doing in small gangs....etc" when you know you can throw caps at the sovereignty problem (assuming you even care about it) and none of those guys can do much to you since they'll have to spend hours to get their HAC back up to speed. I think it is disturbing enough that I'd self destruct my BC to get back to highsec because "flying it 50 jumps across null is such a chore." (while those guys can spend hours just to kill a BC)
Originally by: Grendell But just like anybody else with that sort of wealth, it was started from nothing and grinded up to what it is now.
Anybody can do it with enough determination and hard work.
Wealth generates income. 1.5T at 100m/hr of sanctums is some 15,000 hours of work, or 10 hours a day, every day, for FOUR YEARS. Needless to say, the claims that such wealth comes from mere "hard work" is absurd. Your isk/hr probably have to break 500m/hr to be with the relm of sanity and I suspect it breaks 1b/hr in reality.
Passive income is EXPONENTIAL, and it is very disturbing.
That said, that kind of wealth does not come from nothing, and you have my respect for the dedication, persistence, restraint and intelligence in expanding that pool of wealth while others have failed. That said, once the wealth is made it just keeps on growing.
Originally by: Business Classy Anyway, the poor don't get poorer, so there's no 'problem' that requires a solution. There are plenty of opportunities for those who are poor to rise up out of the trap with some brain power or luck, that's all that's needed, and its present.
The poor can't catch up without spending more time then someone that starts early, as it is a moving target. Every day you wake up grendal's wallet increase by 700m or more, and if you aren't making more than that, you will never catch up. Even if you are building a captial stock of your own, unless your own rate of return on captial exceeds his (by order of magnitude), you will never catch up. For example, you can never catch up using the T2bpo strategy unless you have comparable isk to begin with. Even if you build your own stuff at 2x~3x return on captial, you'd still need >500b to be closing the gap while he buys more and more T2bpo in the mean time.
----- It is disturbing that in an old alliance of mine, of some 500 characters (probably around 300 active players) can be stomped by a single multiboxing player in the "wealthy" part of eve.
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Arkanor
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:41:00 -
[21]
Originally by: SencneS
Originally by: Grendell Is it because I'm Amarrian?
Isn't it always?? Lower life forms striving to be the TRUE power of New Eden! Since they where not blessed by the maker and chosen to be Amarrian they slander us at every chance! While we may not be able to crush our enemies with Technology, we'll simply destroy them with our Financial Prowess! Buy up their Technology and obliterate them with their own weapons why willingly sold to us just so they could get a taste what it means to be Amarrian!
As a proud Gallentean I will gladly sell you blasters and proceed to obliterate you from outside your new 15cm optimal range.
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Gogo Yeung
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:41:00 -
[22]
Poor people are only good to fuel my jump freighter.
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Brian Ballsack
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:42:00 -
[23]
Just buy some Plex with real money like most of the rich people do.
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:54:00 -
[24]
Quote: You know, it is very disturbing to think: "The best way for me to become 'useful at pvp' " is to save up enough isk to fuel trade/passive income to generate billions fast. That way, you maximize your "combat power per hour" by throwing more isk onto grid. It is certainly much, much less fun than spending time on EFT, figuring out tactics and working with people to work out a smooth battle plans. No, if you don't care about KB efficiency then the best strategy is to sit in a station moving your billions.
This is a foolish statement. If you want to be useful at PvP, don't be just another grunt. Get into a specific role and be the best you can at it. Many Nul sec corps happily have full ship replacement programs for Logi support ships, Interdictors, and HICs. Others happily pay for well trained scouts who can quickly probe down a target or effectively spy on enemy assets.
Your assumption is that the only value you can add is by throwing another super cap on the field. Yes, they do help. Yes, they form the backbone of many engagements, butą wellą go fly with a nice bomber wing. 20 bombers can cause a heck of a lot of damage and donĘt require anywhere near the training time or isk that a super cap does.
Also, you seem to be focusing only on nul sec warfare. Ample mercenary and other groups make fun, productive, livings running nothing but hi sec wars. Again, a good skilled Logi pilot, or even in that case, one more skilled battleship helps out.
So really, why do you feel that super caps are the only way to be useful at PvP? Perhaps you should spend less time babbling on the forums and more time asking what ways you can be better at PvP without a super cap.
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Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
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Posted - 2010.10.05 17:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Marshiro
Originally by: Grendell But just like anybody else with that sort of wealth, it was started from nothing and grinded up to what it is now.
Anybody can do it with enough determination and hard work.
Wealth generates income. 1.5T at 100m/hr of sanctums is some 15,000 hours of work, or 10 hours a day, every day, for FOUR YEARS. Needless to say, the claims that such wealth comes from mere "hard work" is absurd. Your isk/hr probably have to break 500m/hr to be with the relm of sanity and I suspect it breaks 1b/hr in reality.
Passive income is EXPONENTIAL, and it is very disturbing.
That said, that kind of wealth does not come from nothing, and you have my respect for the dedication, persistence, restraint and intelligence in expanding that pool of wealth while others have failed. That said, once the wealth is made it just keeps on growing.
.
I've been playing since 2003. We had no battleship npc's, we had no sanctums, we had no battleships. Making isk in today's eve is in my opinion far too easy.
Making a Trillion isk a year is really not that hard, nor does it require an obscene amount of capital. While it all may seem exponential to you, the truth is the more capital you have to work with, chances are your efficiency to putting it to work will diminish.
As far as your concerns about closing gaps between the rich and poor, you'd be surprised to know that most of the rich don't really grind as hard as they did to get there. Personally I haven't actively grinded for isk in over a year. I may catch an opportunity here and there, but it's hardly active income.
There are endless opportunities out there to make huge amounts of isk with little amount of capital. Some of the fastest and most profitable returns come from relatively small capital investments.
When "I feel like it" I make about 500-600m isk an hour. With about 2-3b capital. Using your example of a 10 hour grind a day, it would take a year to get to about 1.8T.
Hardly something hard to do. All it is is research, work, and patience. You don't need crazy amounts of capital to make a lot of isk.
Grendell ♥
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:19:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 05/10/2010 18:21:30 My roommate is poor because whenever he has spare money, he buys faction frigates and loses them, and he doesn't like to do stuff that makes ISK
I mean, he's poor because EVE is broken and it's impossible for him to make money. Fix it CCP!
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Londo Cebb
Official Market Discussions Troll
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Marshiro Making Isk is hard. PVP is hard. Why are you all so much better at this game then me?
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Betty Boom
Caldari SPECTRE Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.10.05 18:29:00 -
[28]
If you would take all assets of the world and give every human the same part. And this happend on New Year 2011. You can be sure, that 20 Minutes after new year you have the first 5 % rich and 20% poor.
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Phoebe Halliwel
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Marshiro Is there much that is more discouraging then knowing the you are relatively useless in generating income or showing up on the combat grid?
That's a pretty sad attitude to have
Maybe you should just take a break for a while or approach the game from a fresh angle? There's a tone underlying those comments that reminds me of people who are burned out and are debating quitting.
It shouldn't be entirely about having massive amounts of ISK or being a pro pvper, unless those are really what you enjoy. Might sound a bit trite but the most fun you will have in game is with the people you play it with. Including the ones you play against.
It's pretty difficult to remove that element of competition in order to create a level playing field. I'd interpret your comments to suggest a bad experience with nullsec pvp, and some resentment at not being able to catch long term players up in terms of ISK. If you don't like the idea of capital ships online, which many people have issues with, don't play that game. There's plenty of other pvp playstyles available. If you think ISK making on a large scale is too time consuming, don't do it. I'm really not sure why what anyone else has in assets or in their wallet should significantly impact the enjoyment you derive from playing this game.
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Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
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Posted - 2010.10.05 19:11:00 -
[30]
Phoebe you have mail! Grendell ♥
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