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Sophal
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Posted - 2010.10.07 16:24:00 -
[1]
Serious question. Unless I'm doing something wrong, I can out tank and out DPS with a Rattlesnake (For Plex's or mission running) than a Raven Navy issue. So why the price hike on these ships?
Seems like the Rattlesnake has them beat by a long shot.
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Hyveres
Caldari Black Nova Corp IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.07 16:28:00 -
[2]
Supply & demand.
To get adequate DPS out of the Rattlesnake requires Gallente & Caldari BS 5 with T2 style droneskills.
Which is not too common among caldari pilots.
"Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
knobber Jobbler
Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2010.10.07 16:32:00 -
[3]
What he said. CNR's are easier to skill well for. Rattlesnakes need allot more SP to get the most out of them.
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NoNah
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Posted - 2010.10.07 16:37:00 -
[4]
I'd say you're doing something wrong then. The rattlesnake simply doesn't have the damage output of a CNR - and for the most part tank is rather irrelevant. That is, CNR easily got enough to survive, and it doesn't matter if you have 3 times what it takes to survive, you will still only survive. CNR will perform better for level 4's and that's where the VAST majority of both ships end up. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 353646
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Sophal
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Posted - 2010.10.07 16:48:00 -
[5]
Originally by: NoNah I'd say you're doing something wrong then. The rattlesnake simply doesn't have the damage output of a CNR - and for the most part tank is rather irrelevant. That is, CNR easily got enough to survive, and it doesn't matter if you have 3 times what it takes to survive, you will still only survive. CNR will perform better for level 4's and that's where the VAST majority of both ships end up.
Right but I'm talking about Plex's or Anoms in 0.0
And I don't know about you, but throwing a setup on EFT shows that a Rattlesnake can match the DPS of a Raven (Or get darn close)
But I understand the SP requirements.
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.10.07 16:53:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sophal
Right but I'm talking about Plex's or Anoms in 0.0
And I don't know about you, but throwing a setup on EFT shows that a Rattlesnake can match the DPS of a Raven (Or get darn close)
But I understand the SP requirements.
But isn't that setup drone based? I very much doubt that without drones, the DPS of the Rattlesnake matches the Navy Raven. It's more likely the drones that make it equal. If so, what kind of drones? Ogre 2s, Sentry 2s? Remember you may already have those skills, but they do take time for other people. Myself, not having T2 Heavy or Sentry drone skills, a Rattlesnake would take a while to pilot and even longer to field well. A Navy Raven, the only thing holding me back is isk, and well, the fact that I don't really need one for what I do.
I'm betting I'm like alot of peopls. The Navy Raven is just more popular because it's easier to fit, more accessible to all, and works well enough. Heck, considring it's easier to get a navy raven I would think vs a Rattlesnake, I think that alone should indicate that the demand for them is extremely high if the price is much higher than the rattlesnake.
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gfldex
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Posted - 2010.10.07 16:56:00 -
[7]
You get 3x as much LP in 0.0 .
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Lady Ayeipsia
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Posted - 2010.10.07 17:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: gfldex You get 3x as much LP in 0.0 .
True, but if you get your faction standing high enough in faction warfare, you get a 2 run copy of the Navy Raven Blueprint, plus the added LP from those missions, which I believe is higher with less risk associated with 0.0 and all the people who never venture out into low sec or nul, yet still mission like crazy.
In other words, I still think it would be easier to get a Navy Raven LP wise than a Rattlesnake for most people.
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Culmen
Caldari Blood Phage Syndicate Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2010.10.07 17:10:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Lady Ayeipsia
Originally by: gfldex You get 3x as much LP in 0.0 .
True, but if you get your faction standing high enough in faction warfare, you get a 2 run copy of the Navy Raven Blueprint, plus the added LP from those missions, which I believe is higher with less risk associated with 0.0 and all the people who never venture out into low sec or nul, yet still mission like crazy.
In other words, I still think it would be easier to get a Navy Raven LP wise than a Rattlesnake for most people.
But you don't run plexes that drop CNR blueprints. 0.0 Guristas plexes sometimes drop Rattlesnake BPs and you can get then from LPs as well.
and further more why do i even need a sig? |
Trebor Whettam
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Posted - 2010.10.07 17:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sophal
Originally by: NoNah I'd say you're doing something wrong then. The rattlesnake simply doesn't have the damage output of a CNR - and for the most part tank is rather irrelevant. That is, CNR easily got enough to survive, and it doesn't matter if you have 3 times what it takes to survive, you will still only survive. CNR will perform better for level 4's and that's where the VAST majority of both ships end up.
Right but I'm talking about Plex's or Anoms in 0.0
And I don't know about you, but throwing a setup on EFT shows that a Rattlesnake can match the DPS of a Raven (Or get darn close)
But I understand the SP requirements.
If EFT dps was what mattered for missions, everyone would doing their L4s in blaster fit Vindicators. The CNR is demonstrably faster running level fours because of its ability to apply a high level of dps to any ship (except elite frigs, which are for drones) at any range. Since level four missions are the most popular use of faction battleships by a landslide, they dictate the demand. That's why the CNR is so much more popular, even more than the SP requirements.
I suspect that the bargain basement price of Rattlesnakes these days is mostly due to the removal of high-sec L5 missions. It has lost its niche, and I'm sure the supply was bolstered by former L5 mission runners selling off their now unneeded ships.
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Cat o'Ninetails
Caldari Rancer Defence League Eternal Ascension
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Posted - 2010.10.07 17:41:00 -
[11]
i found my rattlesnake blueprint
stupid guristas leaving all their stuff lying around and why do they carry the blueprints anyway what good is a blueprint on a already built ship lol
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EVE Garden |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.10.07 17:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Trebor Whettam If EFT dps was what mattered for missions, everyone would doing their L4s in blaster fit Vindicators. The CNR is demonstrably faster running level fours because of its ability to apply a high level of dps to any ship (except elite frigs, which are for drones) at any range.
^^ This. It may look good on paper, but compared to cruise missiles (or even torps), that drone DPS is highly situational. It's only that high against large, thermal-weak targets at short range ù a situation you rarely face. A CNR can apply rat-specific damage to almost every target across its entire range band.
Reconfigure your Rattler to fight kinetic-weak targets at 60km range, and see what it looks likeà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2010.10.07 18:48:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Grytok on 07/10/2010 18:52:40
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Trebor Whettam If EFT dps was what mattered for missions, everyone would doing their L4s in blaster fit Vindicators. The CNR is demonstrably faster running level fours because of its ability to apply a high level of dps to any ship (except elite frigs, which are for drones) at any range.
^^ This. It may look good on paper, but compared to cruise missiles (or even torps), that drone DPS is highly situational. It's only that high against large, thermal-weak targets at short range ù a situation you rarely face. A CNR can apply rat-specific damage to almost every target across its entire range band.
Reconfigure your Rattler to fight kinetic-weak targets at 60km range, and see what it looks likeà
@ 60km Range:
CNR: 7x CN Cruise Launcher (Wrath Cruise Missile) + 1x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 546 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x CN Cruise Launcher /Wrath Cruise Missile) + 2x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 552 DPS
Reconfiguration doesn't change anything. DPS of both ships is exactly the same. Additionally, EFT doesn't show alpha-damage for Drones which is 1350 for 5x Warden II, so add them to the Rattlesnake and even the alpha of both ships is identical.
Furthermore the Rattlesnake has 1 medium and 1 low-slot advantage over the CNR, and an additional 25% Shieldresistances. This way you can field the same tank as the CNR but have more spareslots for Omni Tracking Links, BCUs and Targetpainters.
Rattlesnake wins hands down, if you've got maximum skills for Drones and Gallente BS LvL 5 in addition to the Shield and Missile Skills you need for the CNR.
Additionally, the Sentry-Drones hit instantly without the missile flight times.
The CNR gains an advantage only by using Torps.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.10.07 18:55:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Tippia on 07/10/2010 18:57:41
Originally by: Grytok @ 60km Range:
CNR: 7x CN Cruise Launcher (Wrath Cruise Missile) + 1x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 546 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x CN Cruise Launcher /Wrath Cruise Missile) + 2x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 552 DPS
Reconfiguration doesn't change anything. DPS of both ships is exactly the same.
1. Horrible setups. 2. Those wardens have trouble hitting most targets.
Quote: Rattlesnake has 1 medium and 1 low-slot advantage over the CNR, and an additional 25% Shieldresistances. This way you can field the same tank as the CNR but have more spareslots for Omni Tracking Links, BCUs and Targetpainters.
Yes. Omnilinks. Plural. So you're already down one slot from what the CNR has. Then there's the drone rigs, so you're down one of those slots, leaving you with only two for the missile rigs (oh, and you've blown a large part of your calibration, so you're out of luck fitting anything worthwile).
Quote: Rattlesnake wins hands down,
àexcept in practice since it can't apply that DPS for the above reasons. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2010.10.07 18:58:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Grytok on 07/10/2010 18:59:27 You can fit the Rattlesnake exactly like the CNR and have a free medium-slot for an Omni Tracking Link and an additional low-slot for another BCU or whatever.
And Wardens with a single Tracking Link hit everything at 60km, frigs and dessies are one-hits at this range. At this range there's basically no transversal to speak of.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.10.07 19:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Grytok You can fit the Rattlesnake exactly like the CNR and have a free medium-slot for an Omni Tracking Link and an additional low-slot for another BCU or whatever.
And Wardens with a single Tracking Link hit everything at 60km, frigs and dessies are one-hits at this range. At this range there's basically no transversal to speak of.
àbut your missiles will not, so you're still not getting the full DPS out of the ship, unlike the CNR.
And, again, you don't have nearly the flexibility of in terms of picking your damage type and/or using it across the entire engagement range.
As mentioned, the CNR is demonstrably faster because it can actually apply its paper DPS; the Rattler cannot. It's not a bad ship, but it doesn't quite reach as that level. It's a good step up from the Domi, though. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar Eighty Joule Brewery
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Posted - 2010.10.07 19:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Grytok
@ 60km Range:
CNR: 7x CN Cruise Launcher (Wrath Cruise Missile) + 1x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 546 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x CN Cruise Launcher /Wrath Cruise Missile) + 2x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 552 DPS
Why the hell would anyone fly a CNR that can't use T2 ammo and has only one BCU?
The problem here is that you don't know how to fit your ships.
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Grytok
KL0NKRIEGER
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Posted - 2010.10.07 19:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Vidar Kentoran
Originally by: Grytok
@ 60km Range:
CNR: 7x CN Cruise Launcher (Wrath Cruise Missile) + 1x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 546 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x CN Cruise Launcher /Wrath Cruise Missile) + 2x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 552 DPS
Why the hell would anyone fly a CNR that can't use T2 ammo and has only one BCU?
The problem here is that you don't know how to fit your ships.
CN Launchers deal more DPS due to a higher RoF then Tech 2 Launchers, or are you going to tell me, that you're using Tech 2 Missiles in Missions?
And for the BCUs.... I tend to fit for permatank rather then peak-tank, so you can fit at most 2 BCUs for the CNR and 3 for the Rattlesnake, the DPS of the CNR isn't that much bigger either.
And another reason why the Rattlesnake is superior, the Drones kill the targets themselves, while I watch TV. I take that into consideration when grinding missions, as minor time-advantages for the fully damage fitted CNR become even more void, when I can't go AFK inbetween.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2010.10.07 20:02:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grytok ...or are you going to tell me, that you're using Tech 2 Missiles in Missions?
If you are smart you do.
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Orion GUardian
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.08 08:17:00 -
[20]
Its the old "Drones vs Missiles" question for missions...it was Raven vs Dominix years ago so...whats the point?
Ops Question: Why is CNR more expensive than Rattlesnake: Supply and Demand (was answered)
Why is that so? Most likely: Rattlesnkae needs double the skills to be as effective for Missioning. regardless if its 5% better or worse in the end, having to train a 2nd BS and Heavy/Sentry Drones T2 (Raven is better of with 5 Mediums imho) is a huge block for newer Missionrunners. And once you have your Mission CNR pimped up with T2 rigs and Faction gear, most people are reluctant to change, which minimizes the demand for Rattlesnakes even more.
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CCP Applebabe
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Posted - 2010.10.08 10:00:00 -
[21]
Moved from General Discussion.
Applebabe Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online Contact us |
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Sjugar
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Posted - 2010.10.08 11:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Grytok .... CNR: 7x CN Cruise Launcher (Wrath Cruise Missile) + 1x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 546 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x CN Cruise Launcher /Wrath Cruise Missile) + 2x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 552 DPS
I can't help but must bite.
First, I fly my CNR with 3 and not 1 BCU, so then it becomes something like this: CNR: 7x CN Cruise Launcher (Wrath Cruise Missile) + 3x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 706 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x CN Cruise Launcher /Wrath Cruise Missile) + 4x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 599 DPS
See where this is going? Also I use T2 launchers and T2 ammo. It makes completion of my beloved anonms so much faster that it really pays of even if T2 ammo is more expensive. CNR: 7x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Devastator Fury Cruise Missile) + 3x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 846 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Devastator Fury Cruise Missile) + 4x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 663 DPS
This is more of a picture how a lot of people actually fly their CNR. A 200 dps difference is nothing to sniff about. (Although it's probably is bad setup for a Rattlesnake.)
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Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE H E L I C O N
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Posted - 2010.10.08 12:18:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Grytok CN Launchers deal more DPS due to a higher RoF then Tech 2 Launchers, or are you going to tell me, that you're using Tech 2 Missiles in Missions?
And for the BCUs.... I tend to fit for permatank rather then peak-tank, so you can fit at most 2 BCUs for the CNR and 3 for the Rattlesnake, the DPS of the CNR isn't that much bigger either.
T2 cruise launchers + Wrath fury > CN launchers + T1 wrath. Also 4 CN BCUs + Damage control will still allow you to fit a permatank.
Seriously, learn how to fit your ships properly. -- Eventus stultorum magister. |
Lexxxii
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Posted - 2010.10.08 13:06:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lexxxii on 08/10/2010 13:10:14
Originally by: Sjugar
Originally by: Grytok .... CNR: 7x CN Cruise Launcher (Wrath Cruise Missile) + 1x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 546 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x CN Cruise Launcher /Wrath Cruise Missile) + 2x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 552 DPS
I can't help but must bite.
First, I fly my CNR with 3 and not 1 BCU, so then it becomes something like this: CNR: 7x CN Cruise Launcher (Wrath Cruise Missile) + 3x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 706 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x CN Cruise Launcher /Wrath Cruise Missile) + 4x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 599 DPS
See where this is going? Also I use T2 launchers and T2 ammo. It makes completion of my beloved anonms so much faster that it really pays of even if T2 ammo is more expensive. CNR: 7x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Devastator Fury Cruise Missile) + 3x CN BCU / 3x Warden II = 846 DPS Rattlesnake: 4x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Devastator Fury Cruise Missile) + 4x CN BCU / 5x Warden II = 663 DPS
This is more of a picture how a lot of people actually fly their CNR. A 200 dps difference is nothing to sniff about. (Although it's probably is bad setup for a Rattlesnake.)
This....
I use T2 launcers and T2 ammo. Anyone who runs missions in a CNR with 1 BCU should give up the game now.
As previously said, learn how to fit a this ship before making uninformed comparisons.
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Sjugar
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Posted - 2010.10.08 13:35:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Sjugar on 08/10/2010 13:38:49
Originally by: Lexxxii ... This....
I use T2 launcers and T2 ammo. Anyone who runs missions in a CNR with 1 BCU should give up the game now.
As previously said, learn how to fit a this ship before making uninformed comparisons.
And I haven't even started yet about the Torp CNR which, while being situational but given the right situation can really obliterate a rattlesnakes damage.
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