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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Susung
Alt Anti-defamation League
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Posted - 2010.10.08 05:30:00 -
[1]
After the whole control tower duping mess CCP made changes intended to alter the fundamental nature of null sec. Dominion was supposed to usher in a new era where high end moon goo meant much less and large powerblocks would be controlled by the costs necessary with owning systems.
At first it seemed to be working. Many alliances rented space to smaller alliances and corps. A whole class system developed and null sec started to fill up.
But things had not truly changed. Moon goo stayed incredibly profitable even became more profitable. Wars are still fought from high end moon to high end moon renters are just an afterthought.
Perhaps I misunderstood the intent, but in my opinion moon goo still holds way to much sway on alliance behavior. The system needed a major overhaul and all it really got was a tune up. If an alliance can grow rich soley on their grasp of moons then they are going to continue to grab up as much as they can. It is really their only revenue stream.
Alliances need some structural choices that allow them to create revenue other than filling freighters with dyspro. These changes should also include safety measures to kill the whole angry A-HOLE dissolved my alliance syndrome.
Also moon mining needs to be drastically changed so that it is possible to actually over supply. High ends could deplete and reform somewhere else. I would even like to see high sec get to mine moons as well.
Susung
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Xialis
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2010.10.08 06:03:00 -
[2]
tl;dr Static stuff is boring, stir up the sand box
I agree with the idea that moons should deplete. 10/10 plexes were removed for the betterment of the game, and so should this static isk faucet.
In fact, using the exploration (plex, WHs, cosmic sigs etc) paradigm to redistribute moon minerals after they are depleted would do a great deal to improving the game. More dynamic PVE for those who want to explore and set up industrial infrastructure.
Which would lead to more holes in the Alliance security strategies and more oportunity to get some PVP started for fleets of all sizes. A small pirate force could disrupt a major source of income for an alliance, small alliances could find a lucky moon and get an influx of cash.
It would add instability to the t2 moon goo markets, stable markets are boring and unprofitable.
Also: Shouldn't this be in Ideas and discussions? (yeah, less audience there though)
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Vlodovich
Spectral Battalion
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Posted - 2010.10.09 13:56:00 -
[3]
I almost completely agree with this. I think moon mining should still be 0.3 sec and below, but a dinamic reassignment of moon minerals I can only see positive effects of and no negatives.
I don't think moons should deplete quickly, but maybe they could finally make use of the 'abundance' value of moon minerals, where moons with abundance of 1 deplete in two months, and abundance of 2 deplete in 4 months. This kind of timeframe would still allow for warfare to take a moon from someone, yet would allow for long enough for the people finding it to make a nice bit of money.
I think it would make for a more volatile landscape, and would help smaller alliances and corps to find some money for a couple of months to boost operations. Finally it would also make use of moon probes again, as theres no need now with websites like Eve Moon Maps, where you can easily find the location of any moon mineral in the game.
I reeeeeaaaallly want this to happen lol
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Ira Theos
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Posted - 2010.10.10 01:29:00 -
[4]
I argued in favor of these type of changes for years.... and then I found out about the pictures Sir Molle has of Hilmar in his possession. After that I just gave up.
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Schani Kratnorr
x13 IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.10 02:10:00 -
[5]
The real problem was and continues to be distribution.
In this thread - http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1207775/page/1 you can find a lot of the numbers and a lengthy discussion on almost every aspect of the T2 production chain. Some of the material is outdated, but most of it checks out.
In my view, the real problem is the rigid adherence to "types" of moons. Most moons produce one or two types of goo. For some reason moon types do not appear to be evenly distributed among various regions.
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Hanz Landou
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Posted - 2010.10.10 02:14:00 -
[6]
I fail to see how even distribution changed anything in this scenario. In the long term you're only creating more hubs for static wealth extraction. That's the entire problem the OP is pointing out. The immobile and easily defensible isk faucets are making 0.0 a complete wash for anyone wishing to come out as more than a pet residing in borderline wasteland space.
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.10.10 02:18:00 -
[7]
I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness - It's not "Play through a pre-set story, become stronger, do endgame". Gameplay is open ended, and you make your own story. Unless you're too afraid of 'pvp grief' to do anything relevant |
captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.10.10 02:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
Quoted for truth. -- I, for one, welcome the chance to open a bar I can decorate with the corpses of those I have slain. All hail Incarna. |
Hanz Landou
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Posted - 2010.10.10 03:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
So much truth...
*tear*
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Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.10 11:32:00 -
[10]
I support this change.
Depletion of moon goo will allow the "Pay to Play" solv mechanic, implemented in Dominion, to finally have some teeth.
With the addition of PI, 0.0 alliances will have a nice source of income to transition to and will allow the Huge alliance blocks to slowly consolidate without too much undue stress.
I personally would love to see this idea pitched in the CSM assembly hall. unfortunately, it will never see the light of day if it does not have enough support from the community. I can guarantee that large alliance CSM members will not support it and try to bury it. (Got to love politics!)
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Elara Constantine
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Posted - 2010.10.10 11:54:00 -
[11]
Maybe, similarly to how PI works, CCP should allow moon harvesting in highsec, but instead of 100 units/hour make it 25. Things are better in nullsec, but why shouldn't moons be harvestable too?
Create a better balance. And yes, I concur that as PI is supposed to 'deplete' areas on a planet, make moons do the same, so you can't set up a perma isk faucet. A resource only has so much it can give before turning to dust...
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Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.10 12:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Elara Constantine Maybe, similarly to how PI works, CCP should allow moon harvesting in highsec, but instead of 100 units/hour make it 25. Things are better in nullsec, but why shouldn't moons be harvestable too?
Create a better balance. And yes, I concur that as PI is supposed to 'deplete' areas on a planet, make moons do the same, so you can't set up a perma isk faucet. A resource only has so much it can give before turning to dust...
I do not support having moon mining in high sec.
There needs to be benefits for people that take risks. If you allow moon mining in high sec you take away a benefit that has made low & null sec distinct from empire. I support the capitalist view of "High risk = High reward". What I do not support is "High risk = Guarantee high reward" as the system is now. Like in life, noting is guaranteed and I believe that moon goo should be rebalanced to reflect this philosophy!
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Susung
Alt Anti-defamation League
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Posted - 2010.10.11 18:57:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Zendoren I support this change.
Depletion of moon goo will allow the "Pay to Play" solv mechanic, implemented in Dominion, to finally have some teeth.
With the addition of PI, 0.0 alliances will have a nice source of income to transition to and will allow the Huge alliance blocks to slowly consolidate without too much undue stress.
I personally would love to see this idea pitched in the CSM assembly hall. unfortunately, it will never see the light of day if it does not have enough support from the community. I can guarantee that large alliance CSM members will not support it and try to bury it. (Got to love politics!)
That is why it has to be bundled with some other goodies for alliances to get other ways to make isk. Right now PI can only be done by the sov holding alliance but other than that they have no idea what is going on. Alliance dues are controlled by alliance officers without any in game tools to really help them. I am not sure what kind of control they have over income from stations but you need something the little guy can do to get anywhere near putting up an outpost.
Taxes only on bounties is a bit impotent really. Open up some other tax bases income tax, production taxes, automated dues payments. If members don't like your taxes then they leave to a lower tax lower benefit's alliance.
I can jump a freighter full of stuff out from Jita and make billions and neither my corp nor my alliance gets any benefit from it, but the guy who is ratting has to pay 10%
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Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.11 19:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Susung
Originally by: Zendoren I support this change.
Depletion of moon goo will allow the "Pay to Play" solv mechanic, implemented in Dominion, to finally have some teeth.
With the addition of PI, 0.0 alliances will have a nice source of income to transition to and will allow the Huge alliance blocks to slowly consolidate without too much undue stress.
I personally would love to see this idea pitched in the CSM assembly hall. unfortunately, it will never see the light of day if it does not have enough support from the community. I can guarantee that large alliance CSM members will not support it and try to bury it. (Got to love politics!)
That is why it has to be bundled with some other goodies for alliances to get other ways to make isk. Right now PI can only be done by the sov holding alliance but other than that they have no idea what is going on. Alliance dues are controlled by alliance officers without any in game tools to really help them. I am not sure what kind of control they have over income from stations but you need something the little guy can do to get anywhere near putting up an outpost.
Taxes only on bounties is a bit impotent really. Open up some other tax bases income tax, production taxes, automated dues payments. If members don't like your taxes then they leave to a lower tax lower benefit's alliance.
I can jump a freighter full of stuff out from Jita and make billions and neither my corp nor my alliance gets any benefit from it, but the guy who is ratting has to pay 10%
I totally agree with you! There needs to be an in game mechanism to allow corporations to charge taxes on personal market transactions and contracts based on corporate level standings. If nothing else, CCP needs to allow player corporations to create invoices (I.E. bills), just like NPCs do for office rentals, to other corporations/individuals so that complex transactions can have paper-trails in game thus allowing people to build trust.
My suggestion is to build an invoicing system (much like the contract system is but without requiring items) that is tied to a feedback system. (much like amazon or ebay has theirs) Once you complete a transaction and a invoice is closed, the buyer can rate the sellers performance and it can be publicly seen.
However, this is a bit off topic for a moon goo discussions so I will save it for a rainy day!
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2010.10.11 22:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: Susung
Originally by: Zendoren I support this change.
Depletion of moon goo will allow the "Pay to Play" solv mechanic, implemented in Dominion, to finally have some teeth.
With the addition of PI, 0.0 alliances will have a nice source of income to transition to and will allow the Huge alliance blocks to slowly consolidate without too much undue stress.
I personally would love to see this idea pitched in the CSM assembly hall. unfortunately, it will never see the light of day if it does not have enough support from the community. I can guarantee that large alliance CSM members will not support it and try to bury it. (Got to love politics!)
That is why it has to be bundled with some other goodies for alliances to get other ways to make isk. Right now PI can only be done by the sov holding alliance but other than that they have no idea what is going on. Alliance dues are controlled by alliance officers without any in game tools to really help them. I am not sure what kind of control they have over income from stations but you need something the little guy can do to get anywhere near putting up an outpost.
Taxes only on bounties is a bit impotent really. Open up some other tax bases income tax, production taxes, automated dues payments. If members don't like your taxes then they leave to a lower tax lower benefit's alliance.
I can jump a freighter full of stuff out from Jita and make billions and neither my corp nor my alliance gets any benefit from it, but the guy who is ratting has to pay 10%
I totally agree with you! There needs to be an in game mechanism to allow corporations to charge taxes on personal market transactions and contracts based on corporate level standings. If nothing else, CCP needs to allow player corporations to create invoices (I.E. bills), just like NPCs do for office rentals, to other corporations/individuals so that complex transactions can have paper-trails in game thus allowing people to build trust.
My suggestion is to build an invoicing system (much like the contract system is but without requiring items) that is tied to a feedback system. (much like amazon or ebay has theirs) Once you complete a transaction and a invoice is closed, the buyer can rate the sellers performance and it can be publicly seen.
However, this is a bit off topic for a moon goo discussions so I will save it for a rainy day!
Better yet, don't do a feedback system, make a collections system where you can sell bad debt to debt collectors which basically just war decs the other party until they close the invoice
Originally by: captain foivos Who would recruit someone named Barakkus?
Wait a minute...
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Narffy
SP4RTANS Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.12 00:24:00 -
[16]
Depleting Moon Goo: It already sucks nuts setting up and ripping down a tower. I'd rather mine or do PI than suffer through moving towers around every 2 to 4 months and I'd quit EVE before going back to mining. I don't have any moons.
Taxing Market transactions / contracts: This is easy to circumvent. Simply give your stuff to an out of corp alt and trade with that alt.
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Horrus Khrosian
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Posted - 2010.10.12 00:35:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
This... This should be printed off several thousand times and mailed to CCP.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.10.12 00:38:00 -
[18]
TBH the best solution would be to have alternate sources for moon goo - either PI, asteroids, or even "gas" mining.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter Blog
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Aessoroz
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Posted - 2010.10.12 01:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH the best solution would be to have alternate sources for moon goo - either PI, asteroids, or even "gas" mining.
-Liang
Shove it into low sec only and we got a deal.
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Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.12 07:52:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Aessoroz
Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH the best solution would be to have alternate sources for moon goo - either PI, asteroids, or even "gas" mining.
-Liang
Shove it into low sec only and we got a deal.
I'll go for that!
About the taxes: the system is not there to make them pay taxes but instead allow them a system to contribute to taxes.... Any CEO knows that you aren't going to make anyone do anything unless they want to.
About feedback system: you can bio mass your char in 24 hrs or stop playing the game on their mains and play with their alts. Selling bad debt to collection agencies will not work. Feedback system is the best way to go. However, selling of kill rights is another story!
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Psychotic Maniac
Caldari Head Shrinkers
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Posted - 2010.10.12 08:52:00 -
[21]
carebears fighting over moon rights in high sec. even though the moon is gonna be out of resources soon...UMM NO!!!
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My Postman
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Posted - 2010.10.12 10:29:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Zendoren
Originally by: Elara Constantine Maybe, similarly to how PI works, CCP should allow moon harvesting in highsec, but instead of 100 units/hour make it 25. Things are better in nullsec, but why shouldn't moons be harvestable too?
Create a better balance. And yes, I concur that as PI is supposed to 'deplete' areas on a planet, make moons do the same, so you can't set up a perma isk faucet. A resource only has so much it can give before turning to dust...
I do not support having moon mining in high sec.
There needs to be benefits for people that take risks. If you allow moon mining in high sec you take away a benefit that has made low & null sec distinct from empire. I support the capitalist view of "High risk = High reward". What I do not support is "High risk = Guarantee high reward" as the system is now. Like in life, noting is guaranteed and I believe that moon goo should be rebalanced to reflect this philosophy!
Gold moon goo has two sides.
Now it¦s an instant and sure income for powerblocks (only). Imo thats a bad thing and has to be changed, some way or the other.
If "gold mine moons" appear in highsec (while depleting when "outmined"), you have to set POS, therefor you need to be in player corp and can be wardecced. It might not be so save as you think.
Anyway, this way or the other, atm there is no sort of competition for gold moon goo, it¦s a "special" income for powerblocks only, and that¦s not a good thing imo.
Just thinking.
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wizard87
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Posted - 2010.10.12 10:48:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
And again. CCP response to this truth please?
Sov is now a Tax on players. And like with all taxes it barely affects the mega-rich and penalizes those less well off/smaller groups. Is that what 0.0 should be about? Dominion was junk.
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Dr Karsun
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.12 10:58:00 -
[24]
I don't see what is the problem here in your opinion.
Moon mining requires a lot of isk for a start. Even the simplest complex reactions (sounds strange, doesn't it) require a lot of work to set up, alter to maintain and most of all - defend. Thanks to the moon minerals not being depletable you don't have the PI problem where most people who don't have the time to log 4 times a day to make the miner work again can't really make any reasonable profit per month on it.
Thanks to moon minerals not being depletable big alliances hold them, fight over them, but the space somewhere in between which is considered less value is not a problem of the big alliances and you have room for smaller ones. Conflict zones are widely known, who wants to - avoids them.
Now IF you make mineral change dynami - apart from having no real sense as quantities of minerals dug up out of moons are so small in cubic meters that they should last a life time... Would cause one thing for sure - obliteration of all small and most mid-sized alliance in 0.0. Big alliances would just be huge killing blobs rolling threw space killing poses and entire systems to get the high-end moons from targets. The TARGETS may not even know that they are targets untill DT and when suddenly it comes out a small alliance has 3-4 technetium moons in one system or a few system. At that moment they can either run for it and clear their poses as fast as possible, or wait a day or two untill NC or SC comes and kills them because they got the moon.
Making moon mineral random generator would not only kill the pos business for all small and mid alliances, but also destroy all positive changes of the last expansions.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.12 11:02:00 -
[25]
What ever happeend to wromhole moons oh and those comets with moon goo that were promised, guess they got dumped along teh way eh
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Khanaris Asgarth
Eternium Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.12 11:09:00 -
[26]
I like the idea of it depleting. But instead of the moon being empty. Make it when the amount of moon minerals is depleted. Have it randomly generate a new moon mineral in its place. So incomes fluctuate and it encourages people to keep scanning moons for new deposits when they refresh. Sometimes giving common cheap materials but with the chance for a really expensive high earning materials now and then. With slim chances in lowsec of them cropping up and in large amounts. Increasing the chances in nullsec systems of all types but with better chances in the better negative rating regions.
Deposits could range from a few weeks worth of mining with a large tower to a few months. Making it well worth the effort. But eliminating it as a static income. This would also encourage more territorial fighting ( null and lowsec ) as well as spread the wealth to those willing to put in the time and effort. Whilst also meaning that you can take your chances once the current supply runs out to see what the next load of moon minerals will be. Or pack up and find the next big seam.
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Gewrixlera
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Posted - 2010.10.12 16:36:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Gewrixlera on 12/10/2010 16:40:19
Originally by: wizard87
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
And again. CCP response to this truth please?
Sov is now a Tax on players. And like with all taxes it barely affects the mega-rich and penalizes those less well off/smaller groups. Is that what 0.0 should be about? Dominion was junk.
Bah. Have you actually done both types of sov warfare?
Option 1 (Pre-Dominion): Bash dozens of towers, then station per system to take possession of said system. Days (weeks!) of tower bashing PER SYSTEM
Option 2 (Dominion): Anchor SBU, Attack Station, Attack iHub, rinse. repeat. rinse. repeat. Attack TCU. Claim system. I've been in the "new" sov warfare now for about a month - under the old system my alliance would be lucky to have a couple systems owned, rather than a vast swath of 0.0 - easier to claim -or- defend (but requires caps to make it timely).
Oh, and on topic - moon goo needs help? Yes. Moon goo in hisec? No way never bad idea. More moon goo in other forms in losec? Sure, sounds like a viable risk/reward situation, esp. if that other form is mutable or mobile, like gas clouds or grav exploration sites, and mineable with deep core miners maybe...
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Miagi Sans
Amarr PURgE-Corp PURgE Alliance
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Posted - 2010.10.12 19:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
+1.....many small alliances feel the same as you. we were promised an opportunity to get a chance to move into null...we did...for about a month until the large alliances got their stuff together, then its went back to business as usual
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Dusenman
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.12 19:50:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Miagi Sans
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
+1.....many small alliances feel the same as you. we were promised an opportunity to get a chance to move into null...we did...for about a month until the large alliances got their stuff together, then its went back to business as usual
I support the idea of small alliances being able to take and hold sov, but it doesn't seems like it is going to work out any time soon(TM).
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Syn Callibri
Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse
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Posted - 2010.10.12 20:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Xialis tl;dr Static stuff is boring, stir up the sand box...
All that does is uncover all of the cat-turds (aka. moar whines) hiding under the sand.
Syn Callibri Commander - Fleet Ops [21EL] Keeper of the Blood Pact
"Fortis quod Fidelis ut Terminus" |
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dankness420
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Posted - 2010.10.12 20:49:00 -
[31]
one of the problems is that there is just no demand for the massive amount of R4s and R8s being mined. there also is barely any demand for some of the R16s and R32s.
CCP should introduce more activities in order to use up some of these products which are produced in a greater supply then we could ever hope to use.
Add more stuff like T2 probes and probe launchers, drone modules, capital (and named) t2 modules, etc.
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Zeke Mobius
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Posted - 2010.10.12 20:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: dankness420 one of the problems is that there is just no demand for the massive amount of R4s and R8s being mined. there also is barely any demand for some of the R16s and R32s.
CCP should introduce more activities in order to use up some of these products which are produced in a greater supply then we could ever hope to use.
Add more stuff like T2 probes and probe launchers, drone modules, capital (and named) t2 modules, etc.
you have seen what happens when ccp tries to add something to eve or even try to FIX IT for that matter...
and you ramble off a list of what you would like them to screw up next?
sheesh you really do belong in eve...
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Tom Sasaki
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Posted - 2010.10.12 20:53:00 -
[33]
You are aware that the only kind of moons to provide a substantial income are in the north and owned by one coalition of alliances?
The rest will barely earn you more than 1 dedicated ratter at 10% tax per month.
For the rest of 0.0 you actually need to have renters/ratters or find other ways to profit from your space.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
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Posted - 2010.10.12 21:03:00 -
[34]
I've never belonged to a major (or anything but tiny) alliance but I don't begrudge people who manage to finagle hundreds of fellow internet nerds into providing security for them while they make tens or hundreds of billions of ISK.
There should be SOMETHING in nullsec worth fighting over and if alliance drones don't insist on their share, well, too bad.
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Susung
Alt Anti-defamation League
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Posted - 2010.10.13 03:01:00 -
[35]
I don't mean tech and dyspro in high sec by any means, the moons in high sec are already seeded with good old normal stuff, as it should be. That one item seems to be a sticking point for alot of people it was only an after thought, that is becoming a distraction.
Small alliances getting steamrolled over a high end moon would happen but they would take some work to find. Moon surveying takes time and is god awfull boring, some systems got a GOB of moons I don't envy that job.
You could increase the number of possible items on each moon and spread the high ends out a bit more. Plus it would give ccp better market control than they have now. There is really no reason an alliance renting 1 null sec system shouldnt be able to at least build their racial t2 plates.
A gradient increase in cost to alliances who hold multiple systems or a distance/cost system where it is cheaper to hold within your own "home" constellation wouldn't bother me at all either.
As far as cheating on taxes that is always gonna be possible no way to make somebody be honest, you can boot deadbeats tho
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CCP Spitfire
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Posted - 2010.10.13 11:05:00 -
[36]
Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'.
Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online |
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.14 00:06:00 -
[37]
comets should have been put in and farmable would have made things less reliant on poses whcih are still useful as research, combat staging posts and the like. Guess ccp didnt think ot if with comets u would find what u needed and farm it the supply and demand would take care of itself but instead they pandered to 00 allainces, left low sec alone nerfed it a bit
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Biotronics Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2010.10.14 01:19:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
So true.
That's what you get for trying to reinvent the wheel instead of tweaking and making some intelligent changes. The new system wasn't thought through entirely. Yes, it's now easier for small alliances to get into 0.0. As pets, meatshields, renters if you prefer that term. But it's not easier to hold it. The whole issue has been underestimated, and then people tried to solve two issues at once. One being dull and awkward 0.0 sov warfare. The other being small alliances vs. big power blocks. The latter is simply a matter of logistics. If it's that easy and .. convenient to eradicate an opponent off the map, then you'll do it. The only real defense for small alliances would be expenditure. Too much expenditure for a small fish => no mopping up.
But instead someone thought that 'making room' would be sufficient.. ^^ Yeah, right. Well, perhapps it has never been the plan to enable small alliances to gain a foothold in 0.0. Who knows.
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Balance is power, guard hide it well
"Ceterum censeo Polycarbonem esse delendam" |
zcar300
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.10.14 21:16:00 -
[39]
My problem with moon mining is that all the good moons are taken. Ever try looking for a tech moon? From what I found there are a couple alliances that control all of them.
And it takes forever to scan all the moons in a region.
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Fournone
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Posted - 2010.10.15 02:39:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Aessoroz
Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH the best solution would be to have alternate sources for moon goo - either PI, asteroids, or even "gas" mining.
-Liang
Shove it into low sec only and we got a deal.
I'm in.
Originally by: Vaal Erit I don't think CCP delivered on a single promise with the 'revamped' 0.0 Dominion sov system. Moving Sov from multiple towers to one huge tower with more reinforcement towers and moving the dyspro gold mines to tech gold mines didn't do squat. Most disappointing expansion of all time imo.
Almost a full year since dominion is out and we have the same giant power blocks taking up >90% of 0.0 space in the same locations, but don't worry guys we have sansa pve motherships coming!
/end bitterness
/me sheds tear.
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Susung
Alt Anti-defamation League
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Posted - 2010.10.15 20:27:00 -
[41]
The reason for holding space is the same as it has always been moon goo. Not defensibility or quality. Upgrading is nice for members but it does little to help an alliance.
Until the system is changed to add more revenue streams for alliances and their big moon teet is taken away that is not gonna change.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2010.10.15 22:33:00 -
[42]
:2cents:
They drive conflict this is true, and technetium is in the fairly strong grip of a stable coalition source and group of investors trading on margins and creating bubbles which rarely get burst. In general, we want to add more chaos and variation to the system and it's long overdue, even implementing seasonality to supply rates so many things are naturally dynamic (talking about the many things we seed through mechanics) as generally variation or chaos in the system simply makes it way more interesting overall.
It would definitely be good to add a dynamic source of moon goo to the static source and there has been many ideas in the past we have each of us talked about before such as comets for example. The addition of spherical harmonics does open up a few avenues for creating 3D resource distributions within an object.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.15 22:41:00 -
[43]
Edited by: darius mclever on 15/10/2010 22:42:58
Originally by: CCP Chronotis :2cents:
They drive conflict this is true, and technetium is in the fairly strong grip of a stable coalition source and group of investors trading on margins and creating bubbles which rarely get burst. In general, we want to add more chaos and variation to the system and it's long overdue, even implementing seasonality to supply rates so many things are naturally dynamic (talking about the many things we seed through mechanics) as generally variation or chaos in the system simply makes it way more interesting overall.
It would definitely be good to add a dynamic source of moon goo to the static source and there has been many ideas in the past we have each of us talked about before such as comets for example. The addition of spherical harmonics does open up a few avenues for creating 3D resource distributions within an object.
Why not combine the technology you create for PI with moon mining? so moons have different layers of stones. so once you burned through a layer of e.g. technetium, you might get a layer of caesium or even veldspar.
with scanning and repositioning the mining spot on the moon, you can put it back on your most desired material.
that would even take out the passive out of moon mining to some degree.
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Elzon1
Caldari Shadow Boys Corp Without Remorse.
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Posted - 2010.10.17 02:10:00 -
[44]
Originally by: darius mclever Edited by: darius mclever on 15/10/2010 22:42:58
Originally by: CCP Chronotis :2cents:
They drive conflict this is true, and technetium is in the fairly strong grip of a stable coalition source and group of investors trading on margins and creating bubbles which rarely get burst. In general, we want to add more chaos and variation to the system and it's long overdue, even implementing seasonality to supply rates so many things are naturally dynamic (talking about the many things we seed through mechanics) as generally variation or chaos in the system simply makes it way more interesting overall.
It would definitely be good to add a dynamic source of moon goo to the static source and there has been many ideas in the past we have each of us talked about before such as comets for example. The addition of spherical harmonics does open up a few avenues for creating 3D resource distributions within an object.
Why not combine the technology you create for PI with moon mining? so moons have different layers of stones. so once you burned through a layer of e.g. technetium, you might get a layer of caesium or even veldspar.
with scanning and repositioning the mining spot on the moon, you can put it back on your most desired material.
that would even take out the passive out of moon mining to some degree.
Why not combine comets and 3d resource redistribution?
One, you now have the resource "out there" (comets) and not "right there" (moons). So, that immediately requires scanning and an acitve player. With the 3d resource distribution you can use a new type of mining module (would you use a miner II to mine moon goo?) and maybe have it moving inside the comet (rotating) so that it requires an active human player (harder to macro/bot)to mine. I would also say to keep the more valuable stuff in the actual comet requiring the new mining system and the other stuff can just be the "ejaculate" for us to scoop up
Also, don't have the comets disappear, just have them moving from system to system while replenishing it's valuable moon goo Give the comets actual names too (like the Hale-Bopp) so its a little more epic. Maybe put a new addition to the ihub's that is a long distance tracking beam that gives a better chance of having a comet come to your system. This creates two ways of getting moon goo... using the ihub (passive)... and chasing them down (active).
Just my ":2cents:"
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.10.17 02:47:00 -
[45]
sure comet mining is fine too, but i think putting some more activity into the moon mining part cant harm either. imagine you come back after a few weeks and notice that your moon miner mined veldspar for the last 2 weeks because you forgot to reposition it.
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Elzon1
Caldari Shadow Boys Corp Without Remorse.
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Posted - 2010.10.17 04:33:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Elzon1 on 17/10/2010 04:35:05
Originally by: darius mclever sure comet mining is fine too, but i think putting some more activity into the moon mining part cant harm either. imagine you come back after a few weeks and notice that your moon miner mined veldspar for the last 2 weeks because you forgot to reposition it.
POS's were really setup as a passive game mechanic in the beginning. Such variations actually could harm the market for moon minerals overall due to their being a limited supply from the very beginning. If you have variation without it possibly being able to add more minerals during the process then you can only hurt the supply of moon goo which causes a price hike which can be monopolized upon by creating a permanent bubble.
If both comets and the suggested moon mechanic were added at the same time where is your baseline supply to make a stable price? Moons should serve as the stabilizing market force so that things don't get too crazy. Moon minerals are needed to produce t2 ships as was well as t2 modules, think about what effects such a destabilization could cause. The market probably couldn't handle such variability and worst of all the little guys would feel the effects of this more than the big alliances would so this really wouldn't level the playing field at all.
However, just adding comets with more moon goo to be randomly harvested can only increase the supply of moon goo on the market as well as cause the prices to drop. Comets can cause market fluctuations, but the general trend will be for prices to drop which helps the little people and cuts the big alliance's passive profits. The big alliances could always blob the comets of course, but that could cause massive losses on both sides while no mining gets done because of lag
I hope comets could be added soon (was shown in 2009 CCP presents) so that prices can drop. The way things are going t1 prices are going through the floor while t2 prices get pinned to moon mineral supply and the invention process. Its either the moon mineral supply must increase or the invention system must be reworked/replaced. (I still don't understand why we can't just take a module/ship and a few bpc's and end up making a bpo... patents shouldn't exist in eve!)
Summary: Moon variation... probably not. Comets... yes.
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Susung
Alt Anti-defamation League
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Posted - 2010.10.18 13:45:00 -
[47]
Quote: POS's were really setup as a passive game mechanic in the beginning. Such variations actually could harm the market for moon minerals overall due to their being a limited supply from the very beginning
Harming the market for moon minerals? How do you harm the market? Certainly it would fluctuate as seen by the pos fuel\PI relationship. I don't call that harming. I call that making it dynamic, giving it legitimacy. Remember in this little world we do have gods and they do pay attention. CCP would have better control over the market not worse in the long run.
Quote: If both comets and the suggested moon mechanic were added at the same time where is your baseline
Your baseline is a set in stone number. The number it has been for the last six years or so.
Quote: The market probably couldn't handle such variability and worst of all the little guys would feel the effects of this more than the big alliances would so this really wouldn't level the playing field at all.
Fear marketing I hate it. The market in eve isn't by any means weak it's strength is its flexibility. People would make isk, people would lose isk, big or small it would matter how well they predicted changes. Not in how big their arse was and how many moons it could perma-suck
Quote: adding comets with more moon goo to be randomly harvested can only increase the supply of moon goo on the market as well as cause the prices to drop.
I agree. With an ever growing playerbase and a static supply it will cause inflation. I don't think the T2 market is particularly inflated now however.
As long as you have static supply there will be a floor, its no different really than NPC shuttles. Heck make high ends like ore every moon has a little some have more and all deplete. That would be a frightening change But it would be player control over supply something CCP preaches.
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Kenpachi Viktor
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2010.10.25 14:18:00 -
[48]
more alchemy options should help too
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.10.26 06:03:00 -
[49]
I've been saying the same for years as well. CCP is rather stubborn and likes to adhere to thier... well whatever you wanna call some of thier really jacked up notions.
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Elzon1
Caldari Shadow Boys Corp Without Remorse.
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Posted - 2010.10.26 08:09:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Elzon1 on 26/10/2010 08:13:32 Edited by: Elzon1 on 26/10/2010 08:12:22
Quote: Harming the market for moon minerals? How do you harm the market? Certainly it would fluctuate as seen by the pos fuel\PI relationship. I don't call that harming. I call that making it dynamic, giving it legitimacy. Remember in this little world we do have gods and they do pay attention. CCP would have better control over the market not worse in the long run.
With moon minerals there is a limited supply with a fairly strong demand. Lets say the supply falls temporarily... then the price would rise. Now lets say after a considerable rise in prices occur that the supply comes back to meet demand, but not more What does that mean? Permanently higher prices for moon minerals, without any way to lower the prices except to supply more moon goo... which doesn't exist
Do you now see how "certain organizations" created a permanent bubble in moon goo prices?
Quote: Your baseline is a set in stone number. The number it has been for the last six years or so.
Are you confusing this with mineral base prices due to insurance? I don't think moon minerals have a price floor/ceiling enforced by npc's or am I missing something?
What I meant by baseline was a stable moon goo output, which would not exist if moons were made variable. As described earlier (and even with comets in the mix) supply could drop causing a price increase. Then, the supply could once again stabalize, but with a much higher price that could be enforced by certain people hogging the supply... if possible
Quote: Fear marketing I hate it
But, it brought such nice things
Quote: The market in eve isn't by any means weak it's strength is its flexibility.
Not with moon goo its not
Quote: People would make isk
The big alliances only
Quote: people would lose isk
People who regularly but tech 2 ships and mods
Quote: big or small it would matter how well they predicted changes
Yeah, but for those who knew it was coming will only get a small window to increase their isk and thats it... just a small opening Of course for those who rose those prices will be able to know when the market jumps so they can invest and they will be pulling in a massive passive revenue stream, the little guys just can't get access to this today.
Quote: Not in how big their arse was and how many moons it could perma-suck
In reality, thats all that matter nowadays
Quote: As long as you have static supply there will be a floor
Thats the point I was trying to make
Quote: its no different really than NPC shuttles
That really is a strech of the imagination my friend
Quote: Heck make high ends like ore every moon has a little some have more and all deplete
Not a bad idea, just make sure you have to scan for every little piece of moon goo so as to slow macros/botters. Perhaps also make a new fast cycling module with very low yield for ninja sucking someone's high end moon goo
Quote: That would be a frightening change
I for one, welcome the moon goo ninjas
Quote:
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