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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2010.10.13 14:24:00 -
[1]
1. So what is this all about?
I enjoy trading here or there and at some point in the future I might be in need of a loan, which is not yet the case, as I happily fund myself for now. Without any loan record on MD forums and not really willing to disclose how I do earn in game ISK, getting a loan just in time might become some not too easy and time consuming job, if not impossible.
So I'm sitting here, thinking about ways to "grind my public trustworthiness" early on, starting from what is to be considered near zero.
What'd be ways to make you get convinced in my ability, my benevolence and my integrity for a reason? As this is what trust seems to be all about.
2. Yet another scam?
To start upfront: You could receive all of this as 100% scam attempt. I know it is not, you don't.
If you choose to participate, the FINANCIAL RISK will be as HIGH as you choose it to be on your side, there is no reason to have any doubt about it.
No participation equals no risk, participation equals risk of loosing it all. Why might you consider to participate nevertheless, what are your benefits?
I'll come to it on another posting, for now I'll happily receive flames and comments in advance! :-)
3. Personal risks of mine
On my side the risk will be to loose credibility towards my corp and alliance and having stamped "Lederstrumpf" as a scammer. I might not care about either of it. I do know that I do care not to have either happen, you don't.
I'd like you to look at me as if I would not be a corp nor alliance member, so don't give me any wrong credits for corp history or whatsoever. Treat me like a "newborn". My corp nor alliance memberships have nothing to do with this post.
To sum it up: Treat this as if there'd be NO PERSONAL RISK FOR ME. So right now you should be running, scared. Or curious how I will continue.
3. Ability
Without giving out a business model which could get audited I actively decide not to really work that "ability" parameter in a classical calculus-based trust way. For sure that's complicating things. Or isn't it? I'm asking myself right now:
Is there an experiment designed well enough that it can be seen as sufficient proof of ability by itself once it succeeds?
It will be up to each of you to answer that question for yourself.
4. Benevolence
The "benevolence" parameter is heavily being worked on by those guys "doubling your money" in Jita local. That's not me. To be honest: What I will offer (= participation in an experiment) will even be worse on paper than the Jita local scams:
I DO NOT PLAN TO PROMISE TO PAY INTEREST. But keep reading, as I'm getting to the intro end soon:
5. Intergrity
I consider myself to be a die-hard integer person who stands to his word, be it spoken or written.
I understand you may have any reason not to believe me. I'm German, if that helps. lol
What I want to achieve by means of the experiment is to grind what [MD Forum] public perceives as my personal integrity, so that more and more people over time can agree on rating me to be that VERY INTEGER person I consider myself to be. Integrity seems to be the most important single factor of trustworthiness to me. So if I manage to have my "public integrity value" increased over time, it might help getting a bigger loan for less interest lateron. Maybe without the need to disclose in detail business ideas.
Do you think I could succeed crafting an experiment people will be joining at a financial risk?
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Da Trader
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Posted - 2010.10.13 14:32:00 -
[2]
Collateral or 3rd party coverage is what you need.
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Valandril
Caldari Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2010.10.13 14:37:00 -
[3]
I see a long post without much substance. Was that what you were going for ?
Recruit me if you dare |
Lecherito
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Posted - 2010.10.13 15:43:00 -
[4]
Tu veux quoi?
-L
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente League of Gentlemen Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.10.13 15:55:00 -
[5]
Audit/3rd-party/collateral or gtfo.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
AtheistOfFail
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.10.13 15:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Audit/3rd-party/collateral or gtfo.
/me looks at his sig.
What was that you said?
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ForumWarrior
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.10.13 16:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lederstrumpf ...a die-hard integer person...VERY INTEGER person I consider myself to be.
English isn't your first language, I know, so a bit of advice - this word doesn't mean what you think it means. Better phraseology in both places would be "A person of die-hard integrity" and "person VERY FULL OF INTEGRITY"
An integer is a number.
Secondly - any hope of gaining a good reputation was immediately destroyed when you posted here that you were going to purposefully work at "grinding" a good reputation.
MD only allows you to purposefully "game the system" to gain a reputation if you call yourself an auditor, THEN post a public offering.
--- ôThere is a powerful tension in our relationship to technology. We are excited by egalitarianism and anonymity, but we constantly fight for our identity.ö |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.10.13 16:35:00 -
[8]
Originally by: ForumWarrior
MD only allows you to purposefully "game the system" to gain a reputation if you call yourself an auditor, THEN post a public offering.
SELECT COUNT(*) FROM MyPublicOfferings;
Query returned 0 row(s)
Maybe the OP should try another route. Otherwise a world of hurt awaits him. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente League of Gentlemen Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.10.13 16:36:00 -
[9]
VV: <3
You should play Retro again sometime.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.10.13 16:43:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane VV: <3
You should play Retro again sometime.
Finally some good content in an otherwise re*arded thread.
Did you play it too? Those were good times. - Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente League of Gentlemen Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.10.13 16:48:00 -
[11]
I played.
I'm Loktai.
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
ForumWarrior
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.10.13 17:00:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
SELECT COUNT(*) FROM MyPublicOfferings;
Query returned 0 row(s)
Maybe the OP should try another route. Otherwise a world of hurt awaits him.
Every post is not about you. When I'm obliquely referencing you, I'll talk about people who take MD roleplay to the level of gimp-in-a-box creepy.
Aside from which, didn't you consider launching a public investment, to be based upon the reputation you assiduously ground out to be an auditor?
I grant I may be misremembering, but I seem to recall you angsting away in a masturbatory post about being un-audit-able yourself, since auditors couldn't be trusted with your proprietary client information.
--- ôThere is a powerful tension in our relationship to technology. We are excited by egalitarianism and anonymity, but we constantly fight for our identity.ö |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2010.10.13 17:25:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 13/10/2010 17:29:05
Quote:
Every post is not about you
I'd love it was not. But when there's only 1 left in this job, who do you think to call in cause when mentioning the category?
Quote:
Aside from which, didn't you consider launching a public investment, to be based upon the reputation you assiduously ground out to be an auditor?
No. Plus you assume I should Believe In The Reputation God which I don't. I don't give a frack about if I have rep or not, if you think I have it or not etc.
It's really simple and it works like in my research BP service: people hand me their BPOs of whatever value, I research / copy them, give them back the BPO and the byproducts.
That's it! The day they don't believe in me or find I am too expensive, they will say goodbye, it's that simple.
I hope it's due to continued efforts of mine to work at my best, if this is "Grinding Reputation" then join it. Do Something. Don't Talk Only. I really don't know how to explain it better, there's so many people in MD who just DO things and people just give them jobs to do.
I have yet to see a Cista2 or a Raw23 or a Block Ulx <CBA to list more> talking about grinding rep, do you?
Quote:
I grant I may be misremembering, but I seem to recall you angsting away in a masturbatory post about being un-audit-able yourself, since auditors couldn't be trusted with your proprietary client information
I brought the odd scenario to public attention because I wanted to see if someone had ideas about dealing with that. Returning to facts: still 0 public investments started.
If I'll ever decide to make one, I'll see what *the Investors* want off me. If we can get to a deal, then it'll start. Else it won't. Straight, isn't it?
Maybe if YOU and the recurring others stopped their masturbatory "MUST GRIND REP" fail-ideas and thought in the same straight way, then everything would be easier.
Example: if the OP did not post this thread he'd be able to get unaudited and uncollateralized small loans, maybe a nice start with Cista2's IPOs lite and who knows else. But no, you / he start(s) writing this and now people WILL break your / his balls about yourself / himself and demand you who knows what insurance now.
- Auditing & consulting
When looking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h + http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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ForumWarrior
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2010.10.13 17:59:00 -
[14]
I seem to remember English isn't your first language, either, so I'll try to be clearer - the "suggestion" of becoming an auditor to grind rep wasn't meant seriously, it was a mockery of the MD mores in relation to "grinding rep."
--- ôThere is a powerful tension in our relationship to technology. We are excited by egalitarianism and anonymity, but we constantly fight for our identity.ö |
egola
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Posted - 2010.10.13 17:59:00 -
[15]
so whats different between this and the "psychological experiments" we see on jita local?
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2010.10.13 18:36:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lederstrumpf . . . I . . . I . . . I . . . myself . . . I . . . I'm . . . my . . . my . . . my . . . my . . . I . . . I'll . . . I'll . . . mine . . . my . . . my . . . "Lederstrumpf" . . . I . . . I . . . I . . . I'd . . . me . . . I . . . me . . . me . . . My . . . ME . . . I . . . I . . . I'm . . . myself . . . me . . . I . . . I . . . I'm . . . I . . . myself . . . I . . . me . . . I'm . . . I . . . my . . . me . . . I . . . me . . . I . . . I . . . ?
In any sales pitch, "you" should be the most important word.
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Loki Vengeance
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Posted - 2010.10.13 18:38:00 -
[17]
Originally by: egola so whats different between this and the "psychological experiments" we see on jita local?
The difference is that some of the "psychological experiments" have a microscopically small chance of being legitimate. From what I've read thus far, this does not.
If I were prone to paranoia, I'd say this was a new Bad Bobby alt trying to play on nightmare mode. |
Companion Qube
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Posted - 2010.10.13 19:45:00 -
[18]
Originally by: egola so whats different between this and the "psychological experiments" we see on jita local?
This one's in MD local.
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2010.10.14 00:24:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 14/10/2010 00:26:34
Originally by: ForumWarrior
Originally by: Lederstrumpf ...a die-hard integer person...VERY INTEGER person I consider myself to be.
English isn't your first language, I know, so a bit of advice - this word doesn't mean what you think it means. Better phraseology in both places would be "A person of die-hard integrity" and "person VERY FULL OF INTEGRITY"
Thanks for sorting this out.
Originally by: ForumWarrior
MD only allows you to purposefully "game the system" to gain a reputation if you call yourself an auditor, THEN post a public offering.
The general underlying question is whether it's possible to gain reputation of being recognized as trustworthy to handle a (un)specific amount of ISK starting from "scratch". If I've missed any rules about what's allowed in here I'm sorry.
I'm quite convinced at some point in the beginning some level of trust must come out of "the void", or there will be no (growing) trust relationship possible at all. The fact there's existing third party options and options to throw in some valuable collateral is due to the fact the "common money lending system" in Eve in fact has evolved quite a bit since the introduction of Eve. If I'd use some third party service or deposit some collateral then I'd be the one doing the first step by trusting the third party. Nothing wrong with that, maybe it's the only way things will work out these days.
I'm well aware it's quite some "agressive" move to instead ask whether one can gain trust even though one does choose not to be the first in terms of handing out money. And for sure it does not really make sense to participate unless there's something you can gain in return on the giving side.
So what could be a non-monetary reward for the giving side, which would make participating in such an experiment worth it? Does such a non-monetary type of reward exist at all? I'm very well aware that immediate return of monetary interest is the most common reward type when it comes to loans & lending.
Some of us might have given some newbie players some millions here or there without asking for collateral. What's the reward of such behavior? Receiving some gratitude? Feeling good? Expecting them not to bite the feeding hand once they grow big? So I'm pretty convinced there is non monetary reward types, too.
It might be absolutely unattractive for a settled player to strive for non monetary rewards, as he might have all he needs, having himself properly embedded in some already existing social network.
But is that the case for everybody?
One could argue that the least thing to expect from a person receiving money without getting asked a question is some level of gratitude. Gratitude which might pay off some day. Gratitude which might not be there at all.
"The chance to gain some gratitude for a chance to loose all money put on the table?"
Mathematically this kind of stuff would not really compute, would it?
But I'm pretty convinced it really can make sense for some - for both parties being involved.
And about the term "grinding a reputation" -- I try to do that on quite a daily base by offering plenty of stuff for cheaper than what's available on contract. I think I must not be ashamed of that behavior. So no, I'm not ashamed of laying open of wanting to improve what is being perceived as public trustworthiness of my person, pushing that topic into your faces and digging thru the replies I get.
It for sure might sum up to me getting nothing trying to walk this route. We'll see how things will evolve. Thanks for replying!
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2010.10.14 01:00:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 14/10/2010 01:04:18
Originally by: egola so whats different between this and the "psychological experiments" we see on jita local?
a) I know my intent is not to steal. You can only guess.
b) I'm neither begging nor posting scam stuff. You might perceive it in a different way.
c) My character is older than just some weeks. Less than a year might "not be enough" either, I know.
d) For now I'm not trying to "sell" anything in here. I'm more like talking to myself in public instead. If things might become interesting for money giving side I hopefully might notice.
e) I'm putting a bit more effort into this than spamming just a copy & paste job pointing at some random bio.
"What you are trying is impossible!" - Maybe it is. But why shouldn't I try to find out what's possible in a sandbox?
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2010.10.14 01:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Loki Vengeance If I were prone to paranoia, I'd say this was a new Bad Bobby alt trying to play on nightmare mode.
Unfortunately there's no IDDQD easter egg in Eve. ;-)
For sure I could be called an idiot for arguing like I do right after BB's scam "hit Eve".
On the other hand: If I manage to "survive" this and manage to turn it into something prosperous for both parties involved, it could be the best time to have this thread started. So no, I don't feel a need to wait for people to have forgotten about Bobby. It's a bit like "might there be light in the darkness?"...
And most of all: I know "opportunity" isn't spelled "oppertunity". Bad Bobby obviously does not. Who's Gimboid, btw.? http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1377488/page/1#1
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Drab Cane
Carbenadium Industries
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Posted - 2010.10.14 03:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Lederstrumpf
Do you think I could succeed crafting an experiment people will be joining at a financial risk?
Yes.
Has been done, is probably happening now. -----------------------------------------------
- Who Dares, Wins
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Kulan Reyla
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Posted - 2010.10.14 03:08:00 -
[23]
Luvnstrumpf.
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egola
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Posted - 2010.10.14 03:35:00 -
[24]
Edited by: egola on 14/10/2010 03:39:09 Leder, the problem with posting a thread like this is that it's perceived as less of a possibility of a venture and more of "whos leg do i have to hump for a glass of martini around here?" we all know people gotta start somewhere but having a thread dedicated to saying "i'm starting here" is hardly the solution
now i admit, i don't have much if any name around here. i've only been posting for couple of months, participated in one or two ventures at most so far and haven't started my own so i get your situation but even I know that ultimately the ONLY way to really see if you got a "trustable" name around here or anywhere really is to actually start a new venture (or something old like a station-trading loan) and see how quick it gets shot down.
if not operate some other non-profit projects around and if people bite on it, don't go stealing their stuff and i'm quite sure a reputation'll get built rather quickly. theres MANY sources but the worse one to start off is by TELLING us that the risk is as high as our fear let it choose to be.
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Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2010.10.14 03:44:00 -
[25]
Originally by: egola Leder, the problem with posting a thread like this is that it's perceived as less of a possibility of a venture and more of "whos leg do i have to hump for a glass of martini around here?"
I bet you could screw up a wet dream.
"who's leg do you have to hump to get a dry martini around here?"
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egola
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Posted - 2010.10.14 03:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
Originally by: egola Leder, the problem with posting a thread like this is that it's perceived as less of a possibility of a venture and more of "whos leg do i have to hump for a glass of martini around here?"
I bet you could screw up a wet dream.
"who's leg do you have to hump to get a dry martini around here?"
argggh i'e failed my FG ways and yea i have =( woke up before the good part
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Jan VanRijkdom
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Posted - 2010.10.14 04:10:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Loki Vengeance
If I were prone to paranoia, I'd say this was a new Bad Bobby alt trying to play on nightmare mode.
This
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World Director
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Posted - 2010.10.14 04:17:00 -
[28]
Inb4 "It was all social experiment"
I'll take my ISK elsewhere
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Nathan Jameson
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Posted - 2010.10.14 04:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lecherito Tu veux quoi?
-L
cette
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eliaja
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Posted - 2010.10.14 05:17:00 -
[30]
dear God you guys are brutal but yeah this is not a great way to kick things off. shouldnt you have a plan or at least a sketch of one? anyways wishing you Gods speed on your venture.
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