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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Ruareve
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
72
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Posted - 2012.08.08 18:24:00 -
[361] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Atum wrote:CCP Tallest wrote:The Hulk has enough space to bring 1 set of tech II crystals in his mining lasers plus 4 spare sets of crystals. On average, this should allow you to mine 1 type of ore for at least 25 hours or 5 types of ore for at least 5 hours each. Assuming a "set" equals three, and should last approximately five hours, have I always just had really ****** luck with crystals, or has their volatility been reduced? If the former, I'd appreciate having my undocumented luck stat re-rolled. If the latter, I'm still quite displeased with not being able to carry a set of everything, but at least I won't need five of each crystal anymore. And there's still a metric fsckton of other comments made by myself and others that need addressing............. At risk of sounding like a broken record: CCP Tallest you are sounding like a paper theory crafter warrior than someone who actually put the theory to use. Breaking down crystals into how long they last just does not work, rock types vary in size and length of time to mine. Used crystals last much less longer than the stated 5 hours. In reality your numbers are a crock, so you are forcing us to break up our mining cycles to change out crystals, whether you have to head to a pos/dockup or arrange someone to deliver them to you.. Counting the set loaded in the lasers is false as well, as you can't load ammo while docked, so in reality, the selection of crystals to load up before heading out is 4 sets without spares. Is that the intention of this change, for people to just say the hell with T2 lasers and mine less?
Pretty sure you can load ammo while docked, just drag and drop onto the laser and the crystal is loaded.
The Hulk is designed as a fleet miner, so there should always be support ships available. As for the "whose crystal is it" thing just have the orca toss in some medium containers and label them to avoid confusion.
The problem is the Hulk can either be the highest output miner and have a pitiful tank so that dessie's can gank them, or you drop below the other barges output but fit a tank. The Hulk will continue to be nothing but a free kill in high sec with the current EHP and design.
Yet another blog about Eve- http://ruar-eve.blogspot.com/ |
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CCP Tallest
C C P C C P Alliance
300
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Posted - 2012.08.08 18:51:00 -
[362] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something. my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield. a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min. **** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap. with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers. You are correct in this. I was using Orca bonuses when clearly the Rorqual bonus is superior. I have updated the blog to include both sets of numbers. |
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Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
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Posted - 2012.08.08 19:02:00 -
[363] - Quote
I know you can't put 2 of the new rigs on at the same time, but was it possible to install one of each type onto the same ship? Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
marly cortez
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
7
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Posted - 2012.08.08 20:28:00 -
[364] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:I know you can't put 2 of the new rigs on at the same time, but was it possible to install one of each type onto the same ship?
You cant put two Ice rigs on but you can put a medium ice harvester accelerator 1 (Only type available)
Plus A Med Processor Overclocking Unit giving you a 7.1% boost to CPU,
Add in an EE 605 slot 6 implant and you should have enough CPU to fit a reasonable tank to the hulk for almost all Null sec spawns given good skills.
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Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
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Posted - 2012.08.08 20:44:00 -
[365] - Quote
I meant that 2 rigs being one ice and one mercoxit rig. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
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Posted - 2012.08.08 20:51:00 -
[366] - Quote
theyre both 250 calibration so no. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
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Posted - 2012.08.08 21:09:00 -
[367] - Quote
Sigras wrote:theyre both 250 calibration so no.
Dastardly, was hoping we could of went from 3 different dedicated mining ships to 2 dedicated mining ship types. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
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Posted - 2012.08.08 21:11:00 -
[368] - Quote
how so? you still only need two ships since there is no rig that helps ore mining. you have one for ore/mercoxit and one for ore/ice |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
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Posted - 2012.08.08 21:49:00 -
[369] - Quote
One question I just thought of:
Are the invention requirements for the mining barges going to be changed? because as it stands, its quite a bit harder to invent a hulk than skiff. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
395
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Posted - 2012.08.08 22:01:00 -
[370] - Quote
CCP Tallest wrote:Dave stark wrote:corestwo wrote:My "math" is looking at a maxed out rorqual boosted Hulk in EFT and seeing that it gets 2857m3/minute in yield. 2857m3 x 60 minutes is 171,420m3 per hour, which means 1,171,420 units of veld per hour, which is in line with what the blog says after accounting for the fact that I didn't bother to plug implants into the miner profile in EFT.
So, assuming the information posted in the blog here is accurate, things don't change. If sisi has different information, then perhaps its running a slightly older version than what is going to push to live or something. my maths has gone wrong somewhere, i've got 104.0625 second cycles with rorq bonuses, somehow i'm just getting more yield. a hulk with... t2 strips + t2 crystals, astrogeology, mining, mining barges, exhumers all at V, then 2x mlus and both the 5% highwall and the michi implant i'm getting 1961.03...m3 per cycle per strip, giving me 3392m3 per min. **** knows, it's too late at night for me to be messing with this crap. with orca bonuses it's 2898.5.. m3/cycle, giving 173,911m3 which is closer to dev blog numbers. You are correct in this. I was using Orca bonuses when clearly the Rorqual bonus is superior. I have updated the blog to include both sets of numbers.
good to know i managed to puzzle it out correctly. thanks for the confirmation. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
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Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
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Posted - 2012.08.08 22:11:00 -
[371] - Quote
Sigras wrote:how so? you still only need two ships since there is no rig that helps ore mining. you have one for ore/mercoxit and one for ore/ice
One hulk requires cargo rigs so I can carry spare crystals. Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
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Posted - 2012.08.08 22:30:00 -
[372] - Quote
because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time? |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp.
397
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Posted - 2012.08.08 22:35:00 -
[373] - Quote
pro tip; stop putting cargo rigs on your hulk, it was a bad idea before, however now it's just pure ******* ********. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 22:47:00 -
[374] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:pro tip; stop putting cargo rigs on your hulk, it was a bad idea before, however now it's just pure ******* ********.
QFT
A cargo-maxed Hulk was always a failfit. It's just more so now.
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Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
4
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Posted - 2012.08.08 23:43:00 -
[375] - Quote
I mine in 0.0 and I am not happy with cargo holds for the hulk... Empire dwellers could care less cause they only normally get 4 roid types. The added need to micro manage for 0.0 pilots is beyond annoying, and pointless. More so for those that multi-box. |
Jake Rivers
Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
97
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Posted - 2012.08.09 00:11:00 -
[376] - Quote
Sigras wrote:because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time?
Since I have 10 hulks, I have no need to buy extra's, just working out setups for my 3 mining toons.
I do like my crystal options (so maybe I am stubborn, old, cranky and set in my ways), so 3 hulks are rigged for cargo, 3 will be rigged for tank/mercoxit and 3 for ice/tank.
It may turn out that I just end up using the mercoxit ship for most ore mining, but when I have to hit multiple rocks, the cargo rigs are going to be the way to go I think.
Some have had cargo rigs in the past, others I never had a real need to fit for tank, as the rats get dealt with in a timely fashion.
So I am changing some of the macs for tank and the skiffs not sure if I will use them but will play with them a bit, cause they certainly are beasts now.
Senex Legio Recruiter Team |
Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
17
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Posted - 2012.08.09 00:17:00 -
[377] - Quote
Jake Rivers wrote:Sigras wrote:because one cargo rig isnt enough for you? assuming you're mining in a hulk which is what youve been whining about all this time, each cargo rig will allow you to fit one extra set of crystals . . . is it really worth buying another ship so you can mine one additional type of ore at a time? Since I have 10 hulks, I have no need to buy extra's, just working out setups for my 3 mining toons. I do like my crystal options (so maybe I am stubborn, old, cranky and set in my ways), so 3 hulks are rigged for cargo, 3 will be rigged for tank/mercoxit and 3 for ice/tank. It may turn out that I just end up using the mercoxit ship for most ore mining, but when I have to hit multiple rocks, the cargo rigs are going to be the way to go I think. Some have had cargo rigs in the past, others I never had a real need to fit for tank, as the rats get dealt with in a timely fashion. So I am changing some of the macs for tank and the skiffs not sure if I will use them but will play with them a bit, cause they certainly are beasts now.
They are forcing players to take compromise that reduced yield and that's not how it should be. You should be able to rig for tank or for mercoxit yield and not be forced to rig for cargo to eek out enough space for a few more sets of crystals. You should not be forced into considering going to a skiff and take a 20% reduction in overall yield just to deal with the situation either.
Hulks can still fit a faction\deep space tank and perma-tank any NPC spawn out there including drones. Unless you are mining in empire that is all you will ever need. |
Artemus Dak
RED SUN RISING
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:47:00 -
[378] - Quote
Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless. They were bought to increase ore amount capability, not to make more cargo space. And of course they can't be removed without destroying them. The amount of ore I can haul with my Hulk is half of what it was before ! But I have lots of cargo space I don't need. |
Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
17
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Posted - 2012.08.09 00:50:00 -
[379] - Quote
Artemus Dak wrote:Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless. They were bought to increase ore amount capability, not to make more cargo space. And of course they can't be removed without destroying them. The amount of ore I can haul with my Hulk is half of what it was before ! But I have lots of cargo space I don't need.
Wait to remove them. CCP is making changes to ship fits that when done may allow you to unfit rigs. Read the UI changes talked about in the CSM minutes. Changes posted in there are scheduled for winter expansion. |
Uthgaard
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 00:51:00 -
[380] - Quote
One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk. While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality. As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine. There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that. However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); the lack several demographics of new miners entering the mining profession. Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE. |
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Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
17
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Posted - 2012.08.09 00:53:00 -
[381] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk. While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality. As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine. There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that. However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); the lack several demographics of new miners entering the mining profession. Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE.
The Covetor yield has doubled and the cost to replace the loss compared to the income increase is what makes getting ganked truly trivial. If that is too much then drop down to a retriever where the cost of replacement is many times less but the drop in yield is only minor.
Just remember, any tom **** and harry can build those barges with very little skill, some bpc's, and a few million isk in zydrine and megacyte bought off the market. If you build replacement ships for yourself then the replacement cost drops from 24 million down to next to nothing where the insurance payout can probably pay for the high end minerals that you can't mine yourself. They almost replace themselves. |
Uthgaard
The Scope Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.08.09 00:57:00 -
[382] - Quote
Perhaps you noticed the mention of ivory towers. Thank you for illustrating my point flawlessly. Attempt to stop bleating your 'shoulds' long enough to consider the difference between the intent and the impact.
One would not expect to take down an obelisk in a single velator in high sec. Nor should hulks and other barges be at that same level of relative risk. |
Chaos Transcension
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.08.09 01:12:00 -
[383] - Quote
It takes me over 2000m3 currently to comfortably hold a batch of every t2 crystal, 250m3 at half-batch with only 4 crystals and now I have to rely on somebody else to hold for me? Meaning now they gotta bump their big ass rorqual or orca up between me and the speckles of ore in the hidden belts to give me different crystals? I could not see many capital indy pilots bumping their ships up in a belt to trade crystals with 10-30 pilots. That is why they have a tractor beam that goes 80km instead.
So I guess as I see it, you are encouraging everyone to mine smaller amounts, afk longer, and know they can survive a small gank attempt with a passive tank? at least hi-sec miners can go back to afk-mining in their tanks! Yay! You're bringing back the botters almost!
And in the end, at least something is done for the most shafted backbone of EVE Online.
Now alls we need is a new hidden belt to spawn up in 0.0 systems that are sov level 4 or 5 that are slam packed with dense veldspar and Massive Scordite as far as the eye can load.
AAAAaaaaand as long as my hulks can tank about the same hits from npc spawns, I'll be happy, I don't want to warp my guys out just cause one or two rats aggros them. |
Mos7Wan7ed
Gladiators of Rage Intrepid Crossing
17
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 01:15:00 -
[384] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:Perhaps you noticed the mention of ivory towers. Thank you for illustrating my point flawlessly. Attempt to stop bleating your 'shoulds' long enough to consider the difference between the intent and the impact.
One would not expect to take down an obelisk in a single velator in high sec. Nor should hulks and other barges be at that same level of relative risk.
Barges are Tech 1 cruise class ship hulls and at that level they have EHP similar to other ships in that size and Tech level. They should be easy to gank.
Tech 2 hulls normally have more default ehp, higher resistances, more fitting slots for tank, and more fitting resources (CPU \ Powergrid \ Capacitor). |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 01:33:00 -
[385] - Quote
Chaos Transcension wrote:It takes me over 2000m3 currently to comfortably hold a batch of every t2 crystal, 250m3 at half-batch with only 4 crystals and now I have to rely on somebody else to hold for me? Meaning now they gotta bump their big ass rorqual or orca up between me and the speckles of ore in the hidden belts to give me different crystals? I could not see many capital indy pilots bumping their ships up in a belt to trade crystals with 10-30 pilots. That is why they have a tractor beam that goes 80km instead.
So I guess as I see it, you are encouraging everyone to mine smaller amounts, afk longer, and know they can survive a small gank attempt with a passive tank? at least hi-sec miners can go back to afk-mining in their tanks! Yay! You're bringing back the botters almost!
And in the end, at least something is done for the most shafted backbone of EVE Online.
Now alls we need is a new hidden belt to spawn up in 0.0 systems that are sov level 4 or 5 that are slam packed with dense veldspar and Massive Scordite as far as the eye can load.
AAAAaaaaand as long as my hulks can tank about the same hits from npc spawns, I'll be happy, I don't want to warp my guys out just cause one or two rats aggros them.
Holy Christ, the whining.
You know what you get to replace your cargo-maxed tissue-paper Hulk that could be ganked by a rookie frig?
You get a Retriever that can hold an entire jetcan full of ore, has a big enough cargo bay to carry two full sets of T2 crystals for every hisec ore you'd probably ever encounter, get yield within shouting distance of a Hulk (with 3 MLU's in the lows), and do it all for 20 million ISK or so. (EDIT: You also get a respectable amount of EHP.) Or you can spend more on a Mackinaw, and gain a pimpmobile hisec mining machine.
And yet you're complaining. |
Zeruma
Krannon of Sherwood Carthage Empires
5
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 01:44:00 -
[386] - Quote
I really love the new retriever/mack, its stupid easy to mine forever now |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 03:08:00 -
[387] - Quote
Uthgaard wrote:One needs to consider the point at which a change goes from tuning and balance, and crosses over into the realm of different design. The amount of tank on a barge has typically been an irrelevant factor in the decision to steal a ship's ore. In particular this is less of a factor when the ship is no longer capable of holding more than a single cycle. Simply put, no one attacks a barge for isk. While the decision to reduce the tank available on certain ships may have been made with certain intended results, the consequences of that decision have not been carefully evaluated. Barges are now being suicide ganked in high sec for no purpose other than their destruction, since the cost of doing so has been reduced to the point of triviality. As I said initially, this becomes a design change when the allure of mining in high sec (low, steady, relatively low risk income) is altered to the extent that an individual who had invested in the skills to pursue that goal based on those factors will regret that decision, and newcomers with that goal in mind would not choose to mine. There is never any shortage of trolls who prefer to prance around ivory towers with holier-than-thou mocking tones, telling individuals the idealistic 'shoulds'. They should expect this, they should do that. However fine these statements sound while being trumpeted out of the ivory towers, they are limited to theory. In practice, this will lead to the abandonment of mining as a profession by many who were hit by the unforeseen consequences of the balancing (that was an effective role redesign); and the lack of new miners entering the mining profession. Ultimately this will have a butterfly effect and result in a dramatic increase in ore prices, and the cancellation of accounts of those who are now skeptical of investing considerable time and money into future goals in EVE. While an interesting point of view, you're acting as though the hulk is the only mining barge and there are no alternatives.
Im not going to tell you what you should do, but einstein defined insanity as trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results |
Tao Shaile
Vault205 Holding NanoTex NCore Legion
5
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Posted - 2012.08.09 04:54:00 -
[388] - Quote
I don't like the changes at all.
I thought there where too much mining barges already in game with different approaches to use them (3 beginner barges, Highsec mining (Hulk), Ice mining (Mac), deep space mining (Skiff))
Now soon we get some more mining barges.CCP I think is working on them. I have no idea there will be 1, 2 or 3 different models and I have no idea they have other or smilar mining roles we already got with the existing barges. I am afraid this will not be the case but it just adds to the mining barge mess.
Instead I would have liked to see:
Mining barge 1, mining barge 2, mining barge 3
#1 is for beginners #2 is for advanced miners basicaly for highsec mining ops #3 is maybe one of the new barges for Highsec mining, team, ice mining, 0sec, deep space mining
With this solution and as far I care you could get the Procurer, Skiff, Retriever and maybe even the Hulk to the junk yard.
Leave the Covetor for beginners (or introduce a smaller version for the new mining barge to come) Take the Mac for advanced miners (Ore & Ice) Get the newly already announce mining ship to come as a replacement for the Hulk
Orca and Rorqual Support:
Orca and Rorqual should both get a boost for team mining ops (cargo, speed) and Rorqual should be allowed in Highsec
I am afraid as far the options are now with the new rebalancing of the barges it will not get my main character back to the game as a subscriber.
Not yet.
Keep trying CCP! We Step On Puppies
The FIRST evecrimes database! Before you hit "accept" to hire someone, check this out: http://www.evecrimes.simworkx.com |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
282
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 05:15:00 -
[389] - Quote
Artemus Dak wrote:Regarding the mining barge changes The millions of isk spent on "cargo optimization rigs" are now useless. Yeah, too bad. Fortunately for me, I actually put shield rigs on my pre-Inferno mining barges and now get even more benefit from them. :) |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
282
|
Posted - 2012.08.09 05:42:00 -
[390] - Quote
I quickly refit a Procurer today and managed to get it to just over 60K HP (according to the in-game fitting window), with a balanced resist profile, cap stable, and without using ASBs (or cap boosters). I used T1 shield rigs and T2 modules - no faction, deadspace, nor officer junk. Not too shabby of a tank, eh? Esp. considering that I opted to leave a survey scanner in the mids.
With regards to productivity, the single ship-bonused Strip Miner I does a bit more than 2,400 m3 (no, I don't have perfect mining skills, implants, nor fleet bonuses), and the ore bay holds 12,000 m3.
Keep in mind, this is the T1 mining barge, not the T2 exhumer. And, formerly, the most useless ship in the game.
Still gankable? Possibly, but certainly not worth losing a Tornado. T1 mining barges don't drop Intact Armor Plates. |
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