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ma perke
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.08.05 13:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
logoff camp is when you put a warp disrupting bubble in a system and logoff your gang on it at 0. you have a scout next system who tells you if a ship jumps, so when he jumps gang waits 5-10 seconds and log in. at the end gang lands on the bubble before the ship, tackles and kills him.
is that an intended game mechanics or an exploit?
I believe it is an exploit and I suggest that CCP introduces delay after login in which your ship flies for more than a minute before lands on the spot where it has logged off. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
274
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Posted - 2012.08.05 13:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
If you think it's an exploit, why not petition it under exploits and ask? You'll get an official answer a lot quicker (about a week) than you will on here (which is never).
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ma perke
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.08.05 13:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:If you think it's an exploit, why not petition it under exploits and ask? You'll get an official answer a lot quicker (about a week) than you will on here (which is never).
thanks for the idea, I did so lets see the response. |
Cellethen
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
12
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Posted - 2012.08.05 18:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
This is absolutely not an exploit. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
789
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Posted - 2012.08.05 19:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
Confirming that logging into the game is an exploit and will get you banned. |
ma perke
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.08.05 20:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
to clarify:
exploit is the fact that the time between login a character and making it visible to other people in local and this character being able to act is shorter than the time players in warp need to come out of warp in that particular system. Thus players in warp can not adjust their behavior to the new circumstances. The result is that a player loging in has an advantage to players already in game.
This develops as a practice and game model which is deconstructive and doesn't help developing the game, hence I thing it is exploit.
Game to my understanding is made to be played online, not offline. |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
160
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Posted - 2012.08.05 20:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
100% agree with OP - Remove local. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
601
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Posted - 2012.08.06 01:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Cellethen wrote:This is absolutely not an exploit.
QFT. You may not like it, but exploit it's not. But go ahead and get your official statement to that effect. |
Windorian
Leeole's Legion
38
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Posted - 2012.08.06 01:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
There's atleast a dozen threads on this subect already, but we can create another and bother the GM's with yet ANOTHER pointless petition, rather then use google to find your answer.
No, it's not now, nor has it ever been, considered an exploit.
It's a valid game tactic, and is failry well known/used. |
Pipa Porto
633
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Posted - 2012.08.06 08:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
ma perke wrote:to clarify:
exploit is the fact that the time between login a character and making it visible to other people in local and this character being able to act is shorter than the time players in warp need to come out of warp in that particular system. Thus players in warp can not adjust their behavior to the new circumstances. The result is that a player loging in has an advantage to players already in game.
This develops as a practice and game model which is deconstructive and doesn't help developing the game, hence I thing it is exploit.
Game to my understanding is made to be played online, not offline.
They were online when they killed you. So, it looks to me like they were playing online.
If you're worried about it, warp to a bounce no matter how empty the system appears. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
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March rabbit
R.I.P. Legion Red Alliance
238
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Posted - 2012.08.06 10:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
1st rule of 0.0: never warp directly. Use first opportunity to make lookup spots and use it ALWAYS.
problem solved |
eddie valvetino
Snuff Box
27
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Posted - 2012.08.06 12:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Windorian wrote:There's atleast a dozen threads on this subect already, but we can create another and bother the GM's with yet ANOTHER pointless petition, rather then use google to find your answer.
No, it's not now, nor has it ever been, considered an exploit.
It's a valid game tactic, and is failry well known/used.
Wrong
Logging in or logging off to get or avoid a fight is and has been an exploit and if you are caught you will be banned.
However CCP have also said many times in the past is is completed unpolicable and therefore ignored.
If they happen to see it happening, they will ban you. But there is a hardly a CCP employee or GM in every sysem in 0.0 is there? |
Megnamon
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
25
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Posted - 2012.08.06 13:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:1st rule of 0.0: never warp directly. Use first opportunity to make lookup spots and use it ALWAYS.
problem solved
THIS. Problem solved. Duh. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2122
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Posted - 2012.08.06 15:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
I use logon traps because they're a legal mechanic and they're effective. That said, I do think they're a bit OP: they're essentially a supercloak available to (almost) every ship, removing you from local and putting you a matter of seconds away from a location. Local can look perfectly safe, and then suddenly a hostile fleet appears on grid.
I understand that there needs to be a function for logging out (or being disconnected) while in space. I don't want to render people unable to defend themselves if they log in and find hostiles on grid. I'm thinking maybe a 30 second delay with a sort of gate cloak before someone returns from e-warp. Something that would only be a minor inconvenience UNLESS they were looking to pull a surprise gank. I'm sure a better solution could be found than that. Just the first thing that comes to mind.
If you're planning for combat, you should have to commit your resources...NOT log out near a trap so that you can log in only when a sure win is presented to you. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
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Posted - 2012.08.06 16:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
eddie valvetino wrote:Windorian wrote:There's atleast a dozen threads on this subect already, but we can create another and bother the GM's with yet ANOTHER pointless petition, rather then use google to find your answer.
No, it's not now, nor has it ever been, considered an exploit.
It's a valid game tactic, and is failry well known/used. Wrong Logging in or logging off to get or avoid a fight is and has been an exploit and if you are caught you will be banned. However CCP have also said many times in the past is is completed unpolicable and therefore ignored. If they happen to see it happening, they will ban you. But there is a hardly a CCP employee or GM in every sysem in 0.0 is there?
Wrong. Logging into the game is never considered an exploit.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
2122
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Posted - 2012.08.06 16:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
eddie valvetino wrote:Logging in or logging off to get or avoid a fight is and has been an exploit and if you are caught you will be banned.
No. The logoffski would have been treated much differently if it was a bannable offense. Same with logon traps. They are used all the time and CCP ignores them completely. The Skunkworks is recruiting. -áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1540711#post1540711 |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
91
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Posted - 2012.08.06 16:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so). Rabble Rabble!! |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
259
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Posted - 2012.08.06 17:39:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so).
Its not an exploit. It would be absolutely ludicrous if connecting to the game could potentially be considered an exploit. Even if I openly admit to using logoffskis on the forums and have fraps video footage of me performing logoffskis with further comms documentation stating that i'm about to perform a logoffski, i'm not going to get banned.
The only time that logoffskis can be considered an exploit is if you abuse other game mechanics in the process. For example, there used to be a bug that allowed you to logoff while undocking from a station and then when you reconnected you would immediately appear on the undock without an emergency warp.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
93
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Posted - 2012.08.06 19:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quote:many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so). Rabble Rabble!! |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
36
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Posted - 2012.08.06 19:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:Xuixien wrote:It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so). Its not an exploit. It would be absolutely ludicrous if connecting to the game could potentially be considered an exploit. Even if I openly admit to using logoffskis on the forums and have fraps video footage of me performing logoffskis with further comms documentation stating that i'm about to perform a logoffski, i'm not going to get banned. The only time that logoffskis can be considered an exploit is if you abuse other game mechanics in the process. For example, there used to be a bug that allowed you to logoff while undocking from a station and then when you reconnected you would immediately appear on the undock without an emergency warp.
They aren't talking about a person logging into the game and you know it. They are talking about a GROUP of people, all of which logged off at same time, in same place, logging back in at exactly the same time, after dropping a mechanic in game to use (bubble). That doesn't 'accidentally' happen, nor does the timing for a disconnect happen like that situation happen more often than hitting the lottery does. ;)
Is it effective? Undeniably. Is it cheap play? lol hell yes. Is it considered an exploit? I believe technically yes. Is it enforceable? Almost utterly impossible (unless its one of the devs that happens to be the person you drop that trap on. Would be interesting to see what their reaction is then, lol).
Not much you can do about it, other than as stated above: Never warp directly, which I learned my 2nd day in 0.0, you never do anyway if at all possible. |
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Pipa Porto
633
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Posted - 2012.08.06 19:49:00 -
[21] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so).
If you think it's an exploit, find the ruling that says it is. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
93
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Posted - 2012.08.06 20:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Xuixien wrote:It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so). If you think it's an exploit, find the ruling that says it is.
Lots of things are bannable/considered exploits but not expressly written as such, and the only way you find out is warning/ban from a GM. Find where it's illegal to rename a can "you" and then scramble it to trick people into CONCORDing themselves. I bet you won't find it. But I bet you'll get banned if you run around doing it and people report you enough.
vOv Just one of those things. We are dealing with CCP, after all - they're not into the whole "SPACESHIP LAWYERS" thing.
Rabble Rabble!! |
Fairren
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.08.06 23:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
Was there ever dev explanation as to why this is supposedly hard to police? There is already some record of when people log in (i.e. "last online" in corp member list is possible), and there is obviously going to be a record of ships destroyed (kill mails). I don't get it. |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
93
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Posted - 2012.08.06 23:42:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fairren wrote:Was there ever dev explanation as to why this is supposedly hard to police? There is already some record of when people log in (i.e. "last online" in corp member list is possible), and there is obviously going to be a record of ships destroyed (kill mails). I don't get it.
Because that would require :effort:. Rabble Rabble!! |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
260
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Posted - 2012.08.07 01:17:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zyella Stormborn wrote:Pinky Feldman wrote:Xuixien wrote:It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so). Its not an exploit. It would be absolutely ludicrous if connecting to the game could potentially be considered an exploit. Even if I openly admit to using logoffskis on the forums and have fraps video footage of me performing logoffskis with further comms documentation stating that i'm about to perform a logoffski, i'm not going to get banned. The only time that logoffskis can be considered an exploit is if you abuse other game mechanics in the process. For example, there used to be a bug that allowed you to logoff while undocking from a station and then when you reconnected you would immediately appear on the undock without an emergency warp. They aren't talking about a person logging into the game and you know it. They are talking about a GROUP of people, all of which logged off at same time, in same place, logging back in at exactly the same time, after dropping a mechanic in game to use (bubble). That doesn't 'accidentally' happen, nor does the timing for a disconnect happen like that situation happen more often than hitting the lottery does. ;) Is it effective? Undeniably. Is it cheap play? lol hell yes. Is it considered an exploit? I believe technically yes. Is it enforceable? Almost utterly impossible (unless its one of the devs that happens to be the person you drop that trap on. Would be interesting to see what their reaction is then, lol). Not much you can do about it, other than as stated above: Never warp directly, which I learned my 2nd day in 0.0, you never do anyway if at all possible.
The bubble situation the OP mentioned is fair play and no different than a logoffski on a gate since you still have your e-warp upon login. I can guarantee you as someone who knows people who consistently skirt the edges of whats allowable within the game, that simple group logoffskis aren't going to get you banned even if you go around parading openly that you do it. I know people who regularly get petitioned for doing logoffskis, where its quite clear what they're doing, and they've never once even gotten a GM warning. The point is, connecting to the game is never considered an exploit.
Is it cheesy? Yes. Does it upset people? Yes. Does it get kills? Yes. Is it an exploit that will get you banned? No. Worst case scenario if it is proven and admitted what you're doing you'll get a warning first, so its hardly an issue.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Pipa Porto
635
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Posted - 2012.08.07 01:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:Xuixien wrote:It actually is considered an exploit, but many people mistakenly believe it's not due to the fact that it is rarely enforced (due to the difficulty in doing so). If you think it's an exploit, find the ruling that says it is. Lots of things are bannable/considered exploits but not expressly written as such, and the only way you find out is warning/ban from a GM. Find where it's illegal to rename a can "you" and then scramble it to trick people into CONCORDing themselves. I bet you won't find it. But I bet you'll get banned if you run around doing it and people report you enough. vOv Just one of those things. We are dealing with CCP, after all - they're not into the whole "SPACESHIP LAWYERS" thing.
Renaming cans isn't an exploit. They did change the way notifications were formatted, though.
If you think it's an exploit, petition and get a ruling from a GM that says that logging into the game is considered an exploit.
I see no reason to believe that logging into the game is or ever was classified as an exploit. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
260
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Posted - 2012.08.07 01:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Fairren wrote:Was there ever dev explanation as to why this is supposedly hard to police? There is already some record of when people log in (i.e. "last online" in corp member list is possible), and there is obviously going to be a record of ships destroyed (kill mails). I don't get it.
Because not only is it difficult to prove, its not uncommon for the gankee to think they got logoffski'd when they actually didn't because it never occurs to them the enemy gang could have been hiding in a side system or in a wormhole. I got accused of logoffskis a lot when I was in empire, when in reality most of the time it was having good eyes and being able to properly judge gate distances and timing.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
93
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Posted - 2012.08.07 01:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
I like how Pinky says that logoffskis aren't illegal because people she knows use the tactic without repercussions...
... but then a couple of posts later proceeds to explain why they aren't being banned, and the reason is because it's hard to police, not because it's actually legal.
Don't you ever change Pinky. Not never. Rabble Rabble!! |
Xuixien
Rifterlings Ushra'Khan
93
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Posted - 2012.08.07 01:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:I see no reason to believe that logging into the game is or ever was classified as an exploit.
Facts > rhetoric. mmkay? Rabble Rabble!! |
Pipa Porto
635
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Posted - 2012.08.07 01:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Xuixien wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:I see no reason to believe that logging into the game is or ever was classified as an exploit. Facts > rhetoric. mmkay?
Agreed, so post Facts then. Where have you seen any official indication that it's an exploit. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
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