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ThrashPower
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2010.11.04 20:45:00 -
[31]
nerf angel cartel combat agents or make missions probeable: dram prices skyrocket everyone wins :D
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Gibbo3771
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Posted - 2010.11.04 21:56:00 -
[32]
100mil for a vaga - 300 for a cynabal or 500 to make it even worth chosing over a vaga.
Dram 90mil - inties 10mil
See WHY they are the way they are? you get what you pay for. Plus dramiels DPS is mediocre at best lol
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lil Ghork
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Posted - 2010.11.04 22:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Gibbo3771 100mil for a vaga - 300 for a cynabal or 500 to make it even worth chosing over a vaga.
Dram 90mil - inties 10mil
See WHY they are the way they are? you get what you pay for. Plus dramiels DPS is mediocre at best lol
this would all be a good point if other pirate ships behaved the same way, So no dont just compare them to t2 ships, compare them to other faction ships as well
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.11.04 22:21:00 -
[34]
Originally by: lil Ghork
this would all be a good point if other pirate ships behaved the same way, So no dont just compare them to t2 ships, compare them to other faction ships as well
Comparing them to the pirate ships that are not completely broken and useless you mean?
Like Daredevil, Gila, Bhaalgorn, Vindicator? Seem to be pretty much in line tbh.
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Wrecker Red
Signal Seven
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Posted - 2010.11.04 23:01:00 -
[35]
I lulzed when I saw the Vindicator on a list of ships that aren't broken.
Seeing as Cartel ships ARE provably better than their t2 counterparts, a fact I wasn't aware of, I would say that all they need is a whack with a nerf bat. An incredibly careful whack to keep them useful, but a whack which none the less cause thousands of tears.
Tough love is tough, CCP.
========== WRECKER RED GONNA WRECK YO HEAD |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.04 23:02:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Wrecker Red Seeing as Cartel ships ARE provably better than their t2 counterparts, a fact I wasn't aware of, I would say that all they need is a whack with a nerf bat.
why? pirate ships are supposed to be superior to their T2 counterparts. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Kalana Eargon
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Posted - 2010.11.04 23:11:00 -
[37]
I think people overstate how powerful Angel ships actually are. This is what I would do if I were to "fix" Angel ships.
Dramiel: Needs a nerf, it should be getting 5km/s to 5.3km/s after putting on 2-3x NIS not 5km/s with just a T2 MWD. Also, I would get rid of the drone bay, it is already faster, has more base EHP, and the mid slots to fit dual-prop and a MSE. Not sure about this, but maybe an increase to tracking speed so you can fit artillery to fire from far away while tackling, while decreasing fitting rooms to leave an opening in the speed, tank, or dps/range forcing you to trade something for the other. Again, not to sure how to fix it or if that would even help, or cause more problems but I'm just thinking of ideas atm.
Cynabal: Ok, it's not that overpowered. Maybe decrease the drone bandwidth from 50 to 25... increase align time to a a bit over the median between the current Cynabal and Vagabond, perhaps a SLIGHT decrease in fitting room. It would have just slightly more speed than the Vagabond, 31% more EHP, less DPS by a slight amount, and a more comparable align time. Or maybe another idea would be to decrease the stock EHP a bit and increase dps slightly.
Machariel: Not really overpowered, it's fine atm. Maybe a tiny nerf if anything, but nothing too big.
I know someone is going to complain about me not comparing the Angel ships to other pirate faction ships... but the truth is there are some pretty nasty non-angel pirate ships out there. Plus, with the T2 ammo change supposedly coming other pirate ships may be useful, maybe still need a boost to make them just as good at their playing style as an Angel ship (nerfed Angel ship) is with it's playing style.
Am I totally off on this subject or not? Please leave constructive criticism.
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Kalana Eargon
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Posted - 2010.11.04 23:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Wrecker Red Seeing as Cartel ships ARE provably better than their t2 counterparts, a fact I wasn't aware of, I would say that all they need is a whack with a nerf bat.
why? pirate ships are supposed to be superior to their T2 counterparts.
Superior? Why would a ship that is 3-4x as expensive be superior? that's just stupid. Obviously people should be given an equally powerful ship after risking their lives as someone that was mining. This is needed for game balance amongst professions.
/sarcasm
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.04 23:45:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kalana Eargon
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Wrecker Red Seeing as Cartel ships ARE provably better than their t2 counterparts, a fact I wasn't aware of, I would say that all they need is a whack with a nerf bat.
why? pirate ships are supposed to be superior to their T2 counterparts.
Superior? Why would a ship that is 3-4x as expensive be superior? that's just stupid. Obviously people should be given an equally powerful ship after risking their lives as someone that was mining. This is needed for game balance amongst professions.
/sarcasm
sarcasm aside, CCP stated that the progression is pretty much T1 -> faction -> T2 -> pirate ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.04 23:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Grimpak sarcasm aside, CCP stated that the progression is pretty much T1 -> faction -> T2 -> pirate
So where does the Worm, Succubus and Phantasm fit in that Grand Scheme?
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Wrecker Red
Signal Seven
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Posted - 2010.11.04 23:56:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Grimpak sarcasm aside, CCP stated that the progression is pretty much T1 -> faction -> T2 -> pirate
And yet again I find things out. Having flown the Ashimmu and Phantasm myself, I would say they need a slight boost to be better than the Curse and whatever the Phantasm is outranking, and a large boost to be anywhere near on par with the Cynabal. Not sure on the status of other faction cruisers, but buffs where necessary should definitely be applied. Imbalance gives the game texture, but in small quantities, please. |
Mortuus
Minmatar Waiting for Palli Angry Dogs
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Posted - 2010.11.05 01:42:00 -
[42]
I'm sure you will find that speed is not all that useful of a combat bonus in things like 1v1 combat.
Where it really becomes annoying is when your 5 man gang can't snag that one ship. Sure he's not killing you either unless your guys are stupid, but it makes you angry and you come rage on the forums.
To fix, make reason to not blob and you'll see less of a dependence on speed as THE requirement on solo pvp ships.
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lil Ghork
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Posted - 2010.11.05 01:51:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: lil Ghork
this would all be a good point if other pirate ships behaved the same way, So no dont just compare them to t2 ships, compare them to other faction ships as well
Comparing them to the pirate ships that are not completely broken and useless you mean?
Like Daredevil, Gila, Bhaalgorn, Vindicator? Seem to be pretty much in line tbh.
Problem is generally with all the other pirate ships, at least all the ones that dont outclass t2, they should all be fixed so they do just that, asides from that the dramiel is ridiculisly op, add some mass to it, and a little mass to the cynabal and it should be fine
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.11.05 01:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: lil Ghork asides from that the dramiel is ridiculisly op
Heh, I take it you havent looked at the Daredevil yet?
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.05 01:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Grimpak sarcasm aside, CCP stated that the progression is pretty much T1 -> faction -> T2 -> pirate
So where does the Worm, Succubus and Phantasm fit in that Grand Scheme?
now, something has to suck, right? look at the eagle. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Asuka Smith
Gallente StarHunt
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Posted - 2010.11.05 02:05:00 -
[46]
I'll give the OP 3/10, blogspot quality; the "nerv this nerv that" poster was excellent however - Wait, this is a trolling competition right?
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Shailagh
WTB Somalians
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Posted - 2010.11.05 03:22:00 -
[47]
To those that mentioned price; isk is not a factor in balance. Idiots.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.05 03:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Grimpak now, something has to suck, right? look at the eagle.
I don't wanna, the DPS numbers and fitting hurt my eyes...
I like balence, and those ships don't have it, especially the Succubus, Phantasm is swingable but not as good as the ONI and Zealot. So much for Pirate being better.
As for the Eagle, they just made it suck to make me cry.
I am the only one in the game that likes the Moa hull
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.05 09:47:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: Grimpak now, something has to suck, right? look at the eagle.
I don't wanna, the DPS numbers and fitting hurt my eyes...
I like balence, and those ships don't have it, especially the Succubus, Phantasm is swingable but not as good as the ONI and Zealot. So much for Pirate being better.
As for the Eagle, they just made it suck to make me cry.
I am the only one in the game that likes the Moa hull
yeah I know what you mean, I was just trollin'
yes, balance should be had. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
lil Ghork
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Posted - 2010.11.05 12:05:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: lil Ghork asides from that the dramiel is ridiculisly op
Heh, I take it you havent looked at the Daredevil yet?
i take it that you havn't looked at the worm, cruor and succubus yet?
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.11.05 12:23:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 05/11/2010 12:25:30
Originally by: lil Ghork
Quote:
Heh, I take it you havent looked at the Daredevil yet?
i take it that you havn't looked at the worm, cruor and succubus yet?
Let me quote myself here...
Quote: Comparing them to the pirate ships that are not completely broken and useless you mean?
I bolded the parts that describe the worm, cruor and succubus pretty good.
As far as worm goes, I've already bought a few cheap ones for the day the rocket boost arrives.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.05 13:07:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 05/11/2010 13:11:57
Originally by: Shailagh To those that mentioned price; isk is not a factor in balance. Idiots.
This. "Better than T2" should not mean "20-30% better than T2 in every way that matters."
The incredible ease of skilling for the ships is what balances out the price. Otherwise even more FOTM chasers would be hopping in the ships, like when Cynabals were only 20-30mil more than Vagabonds. Pirate ships should not be one-month-crosstrain pwnmobiles for the rich.
If the Cynabal were slightly more agile than the Vagabond, were it slightly easier to fit, it might be balanced. Instead it takes these two things to ridiculous proportions, adds a spare mid on top of it, and double the drone bay.
The only people I see defending the ships are the ones afraid to lose their new toy.
ED: I might add, I have perfect skills for all Angel ships. And I hate them.
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Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation The Chamber of Commerce
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Posted - 2010.11.05 15:45:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Seriously Bored The only people I see defending the ships are the ones afraid to lose their new toy.
well, you either have them in this state (altho dram's dronebay is debatable), or they aren't simply worth it.
noone would fly a pirate ship that isn't better than an existing T2 hull. Remember how things where before they boosted them? noone would fly a dram, nor a daredevil, nor a cynabal, because they simply weren't worth it.
and not defending the ships, just trying to get some sanity to the debate instead of the people that say that it's all fine (it isn't) and the people screaming "MURDER! KILL THEM!" (not needed), because when CCP decides to intervene, they would probably "rebalance" the ships in a way that they wouldn't become that FOTM because they would suck so bad, people would drop them and go "**** it". ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Plocsk
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Posted - 2010.11.05 16:09:00 -
[54]
Dramiel is a strange one because before it was made into what it is now, there was no Frigate with that sort of speed and the ability to dual-prop. It created it's own niche, and doesn't really have a direct competitor. The closest thing is probably the Taranis, which has neither the speed or the EHP to compete. The Taranis costs only 20% what the Dramiel does, however. I don't believe the Dramiel should be able to out-tank and out-gank the other pirate ships as it is capable of doing at the moment though. The Angel ships don't have that characteristic for their cruiser and battleship sized hulls. As it stands the only surefire way to kill a Dramiel 1v1 is with a Daredevil.
Cynabal is a direct competitor of the Vagabond. Cynabal is fine - the extra EHP it has over the Vagabond is mostly in its armor and hull, and its resist profile is crap compared to the Vagabond. The CPU of the Cynabal is restraining like the powergrid on the Vagabond, it has CPU issues with many fits. Their DPS is pretty much the same, assuming the Cynabal isn't using Medium Drones (which is something only an EFTard would do). All things considered, the advantages of the Cynabal over the Vagabond boil down to a flight of light ECM drones, 40% greater agility, and some extra scanres. These are nice bonuses, but the Cynabal costs more than twice as much, so nice bonuses are only to be expected.
The Machariel is like the Dramiel in that it created it's own niche - there was no viable nano-BS until the Machariel was introduced. The Machariel shows some pretty nice figures in EFT, but tracking can be a major issue, EHP is rather low, and it costs nearly a billion isk. It's a pretty balanced ship in my opinion, and possibly even needs a buff rather than a nerf.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2010.11.05 16:51:00 -
[55]
I don't think the speed nerf went far enough
We need to mandate all ships in the game go 100m/s and 150m/s with a propulsion mod.
That would make eve more fun for me, and all these mean angel cartel ships will stop pwning me because I suck and can't kill them.
As soon as CCP nerfs these ships i'll be sure to start another thread updating everyone on which ships i'm impotent against in pvp so they can nerf those too
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.05 17:08:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Originally by: lil Ghork
this would all be a good point if other pirate ships behaved the same way, So no dont just compare them to t2 ships, compare them to other faction ships as well
Comparing them to the pirate ships that are not completely broken and useless you mean?
Like Daredevil, Gila, Bhaalgorn, Vindicator? Seem to be pretty much in line tbh.
Gila and vindi don't belong on this list.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.11.05 17:39:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Comparing them to the pirate ships that are not completely broken and useless you mean?
Like Daredevil, Gila, Bhaalgorn, Vindicator? Seem to be pretty much in line tbh.
Gila and vindi don't belong on this list.
Vindicator might be up for debate, I'll give you that as I dont intend to open a gallente / hybrid derail here.
Gila on the other hand outclasses its counterpart the Ishtar to an extend that you could actually remove Ishtar from the game tbh. Especially since its cheap as chips to boot.
I dont personally see the price difference to Cynabal justified and kept flying Vagabond over it, but Gila versus Ishtar is a no-brainer really. For PVP that is, PVE I couldnt care less.
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Leksi Bar'zuk
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Posted - 2010.11.05 17:44:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Gila versus Ishtar is a no-brainer really. For PVP that is, PVE I couldnt care less.
Erhm... i'd not use either one in pvp. I don't care to dispute the fact the gila is or isn't better than an ishtar. My point is neither ship is on the same plane as the baalghorn, mach, cynabal, or dram.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2010.11.05 19:04:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk
Erhm... i'd not use either one in pvp.
Well, then dont judge a ship you dont fly?
Originally by: Leksi Bar'zuk
My point is neither ship is on the same plane as the baalghorn, mach, cynabal, or dram.
Well, Mach and Bhaalgorn are a class of their own really with no direct t2 class competitors, so thats a moot point.
Gila however does outclass its t2 counterpart even more than the Cynabal does, while the price difference is a lot less.
As far as frigs go, Daredevil is pretty much the undisputed top dog, the only reason for the dramiel to be more popular is the fact that cowardice is a virtue in todays EVE where a solo frigate gets regularly blobbed to hell and back.
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lil Ghork
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Posted - 2010.11.05 19:05:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 05/11/2010 12:25:30
Originally by: lil Ghork
Quote:
Heh, I take it you havent looked at the Daredevil yet?
i take it that you havn't looked at the worm, cruor and succubus yet?
Let me quote myself here...
Quote: Comparing them to the pirate ships that are not completely broken and useless you mean?
I bolded the parts that describe the worm, cruor and succubus pretty good.
As far as worm goes, I've already bought a few cheap ones for the day the rocket boost arrives.
well if you read what i wrote earlier
Quote: Problem is generally with all the other pirate ships, at least all the ones that dont outclass t2
you'd know that i'm more interested in fixing the broken ones, and yes dramiel needs a slight mass increase, it is TOO OP compared to everything else, daredevil is a damn nice ship but it isn't broken in the same way dramiel is
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