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KazekoYsera
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Posted - 2010.11.04 10:32:00 -
[1]
(No, I didn't fall for this, I think it's just a really dumb scam since it uses such obscure mechanics to present false information. Buy orders presented to the user need to be valid or need to have some way to determine validity.)
1) Don't show buy orders in the market info that will fail. 2) Tada.
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Flapkonijn
BLACK LIGHTNING MINING CREW
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Posted - 2010.11.04 12:18:00 -
[2]
Sorry don't wanna flame But... Check the price check before selling something. If you don't check and lose isk you didn't check properly.
EvE is cold and hard deal with it...
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Aerilis
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.11.04 12:23:00 -
[3]
No the problem with this scam is that there is no concrete way to tell it is a scam. Sure it's not very likely that someone wants to buy 50x some obscure T2 rig at 50m a pop, but that's not the point. For every other contract scam etc., all you have to do is read and the scam is quickly revealed. People trust in the game and it's mechanics, and in this case the game mechanics are telling a flat out lie. That's the problem.
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Flapkonijn
BLACK LIGHTNING MINING CREW
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Posted - 2010.11.04 12:28:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Flapkonijn on 04/11/2010 12:30:05
Originally by: Aerilis People trust in the game and it's mechanics, and in this case the game mechanics are telling a flat out lie. That's the problem.
I agree completly with this but it's been so long in game it's part of life now. CCP has made huge improvements over the years. So i do feel it should leave some movement for scammers to keep you paying attention when buying and selling. I made a few bil isk a week back in 2004 - 2005 with scams because it was so easy. But after i grew up and became a good citizen i stopped scamming and move on.
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Shandir
Minmatar Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.11.04 16:08:00 -
[5]
The way you can tell it's a scam is the fact that you have to buy a product at hugely over it's market value. One quick glance at the market history of the item, voila, it's a scam. Recently saw what I suspected to be this scam in Jita, looked at the market history, confirmed, left it be. It's not as obvious as "Selling CNR for 100m ISK" attached to a 100m ISK buy contract, but it's not invisible, by any means. I'm not sure if it needs a nerf, because the Margin Trading seems to be a hugely unintended side-effect of the skill's purpose, in a similar manner to Loan Contact scams - it may be sufficiently bad design that it counts as exploitative. But then again, this is EVE and they do love the emergent gameplay.
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mchief117
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Posted - 2010.11.04 16:13:00 -
[6]
for those of you who dont know how this scam works heres how
say im a scamer looking for some isk, i aquire say 500 units of a 1.5M isk implant at there general price , i then put up a buy order for 500 of that implant offering 3M isk per unit using margin trading i only have to put up a small amount of the 1.5B isk that it would cost i then clean out my isk account by transfering it to some other account leaving my current accont at 0 isk.
i then transfer my 500 units to various other accounts an put them up on the market for 2-2.5M isk a unit.
Then comes jony every day who notices my by order an that there are suffeceant units avalable on the open market to fufill it , he buy the 500 units up ( at a profit of 1-1.5 M isk a unit to the scamer) gathers them up an heas to the station where the buy orer is place. how ever upon trying to complete said order the system finds not enough isk in the buyers account and the order is canceled leaving jony with 500 units of over price implant.
another thing is that since no items are actualy stolen a lot of CCP replys to this have been its a working game mechanic, one that has no counter
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Jayne Rayne
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Posted - 2010.11.06 02:25:00 -
[7]
How about buy orders are automatically canceled as soon as the buyer cannot afford to purchase the minumum buy amount setup in the buy order. From what I understand, the purpose of the skill is so that you can setup a large buy order without the full starting capital so that you can resell what you buy and will have all of the money as they buy order fills. This would continue to follow the intended game mechanics and save people grief.
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Pankas Carter
Chaos Theory Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.06 02:54:00 -
[8]
I think a decent compromise would be to implent some kind of penalty for "bouncing" an order like that. Perhaps a temporary "debuff" to the trade skills that govern how many orders can be active, and/or the skill that governs the escrow amount? Perhaps keep a rolling 7-day count of offenses, and scale up the debuff strength and duration based on this counter. This means that, one time - OK, a couple hours with -1 to the skill. Do it several times in a week... and now you're in trouble - 14 days with effectively no skill.
After all, think if it from the escrow-provider's perspective - you are abusing their trust, and so you should suffer some kind of ramification of that. --
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Elizabeth Norn
Tax Evasion Haven
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Posted - 2010.11.06 02:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Pankas Carter I think a decent compromise would be to implent some kind of penalty for "bouncing" an order like that. Perhaps a temporary "debuff" to the trade skills that govern how many orders can be active, and/or the skill that governs the escrow amount? Perhaps keep a rolling 7-day count of offenses, and scale up the debuff strength and duration based on this counter. This means that, one time - OK, a couple hours with -1 to the skill. Do it several times in a week... and now you're in trouble - 14 days with effectively no skill.
After all, think if it from the escrow-provider's perspective - you are abusing their trust, and so you should suffer some kind of ramification of that.
This is not WOW. This is not WOW. This is not WOW.
The reason margin trading exists is so that you can utilize some of the capital invested into large, perhaps slow moving, buy orders until you feel the ISK can't be put to better use. Yes it is being misused. No it shouldn't be changed. I do think you should grow some balls, grey matter and then use them together.
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Pankas Carter
Chaos Theory Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.06 03:22:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pankas Carter on 06/11/2010 03:25:15
Originally by: Elizabeth Norn
This is not WOW. This is not WOW. This is not WOW.
The reason margin trading exists is so that you can utilize some of the capital invested into large, perhaps slow moving, buy orders until you feel the ISK can't be put to better use. Yes it is being misused. No it shouldn't be changed. I do think you should grow some balls, grey matter and then use them together.
How the hell does this idea have anything to do with WOW? Furthermore, how the hell does my idea impact your statement of it's purpose at all? I don't see any incompatibility.
As well, what the hell happens when you bounce a check? You get penalized... usually a fee. Do it enough, and the penalties get steeper. Why this doesn't happen in EVE, I just don't understand. --
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Geddings
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Posted - 2010.11.06 04:33:00 -
[11]
oh yes i totally agree this is what happend to me.
but basicially i have a new rule of thumb. I hover over any buy order that seems good and make sure there is no mininum requirement. sad to say but if the price seems too good to be true and it has a requirement. it is not legit.
my solution? like contracts, make buy orders requiring a minimum have the funds be put up front. this would stop the scams.
oh well i made my loss back however so its one of those things that you have happen once and will never happen again hopefully!
its a shame the market itself can be easily set up to scam players but i guess you just have to be careful!
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.11.06 06:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: mchief117 for those of you who dont know how this scam works heres how
say im a scamer looking for some isk, i aquire say 500 units of a 1.5M isk implant at there general price , i then put up a buy order for 500 of that implant offering 3M isk per unit using margin trading i only have to put up a small amount of the 1.5B isk that it would cost i then clean out my isk account by transfering it to some other account leaving my current accont at 0 isk.
i then transfer my 500 units to various other accounts an put them up on the market for 2-2.5M isk a unit.
Then comes jony every day who notices my by order an that there are suffeceant units avalable on the open market to fufill it , he buy the 500 units up ( at a profit of 1-1.5 M isk a unit to the scamer) gathers them up an heas to the station where the buy orer is place. how ever upon trying to complete said order the system finds not enough isk in the buyers account and the order is canceled leaving jony with 500 units of over price implant.
another thing is that since no items are actualy stolen a lot of CCP replys to this have been its a working game mechanic, one that has no counter
I'd actually never heard of this scam before and I've been playing a while. One more way multi accounting breaks the game I guess.
The solution seems fairly simple to me. If someone has a buy order up and then doesn't have the isk to cover it, put them in the hole for the full amount. Should be enough penalty to deter the behavior.
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Space Pinata
Amarr Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2010.11.06 08:51:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Space Pinata on 06/11/2010 08:53:53
Quote: my solution? like contracts, make buy orders requiring a minimum have the funds be put up front. this would stop the scams.
So your solution to a few morons getting scammed is to remove a valid mechanic which traders have been using for years?
I'm a legit trader. I make extensive use of margin trading. I do not scam with it.
You don't see me asking someone to nerf weapon upgrades because I ****ed up and got suicide ganked and omg tech1 damage upgrades are so powerful waaah...
tl;dr: I saw this. I got excited. I thought the order was suspicious, so I checked the price history. Concluded it was a clever scam. The reason I can make isk is that I don't throw all my money into every 'too good to be true' deal.
You screwed up. And you want to throw a wrench in every traders ability to play just so you don't get burned for trying to be selfish? Pitiful. |
mchief117
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Posted - 2010.11.06 17:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Space Pinata
Quote: my solution? like contracts, make buy orders requiring a minimum have the funds be put up front. this would stop the scams.
So your solution to a few morons getting scammed is to remove a valid mechanic which traders have been using for years?
I'm a legit trader. I make extensive use of margin trading. I do not scam with it.
You don't see me asking someone to nerf weapon upgrades because I ****ed up and got suicide ganked and omg tech1 damage upgrades are so powerful waaah...
tl;dr: I saw this. I got excited. I thought the order was suspicious, so I checked the price history. Concluded it was a clever scam. The reason I can make isk is that I don't throw all my money into every 'too good to be true' deal.
You screwed up. And you want to throw a wrench in every traders ability to play just so you don't get burned for trying to be selfish? Pitiful.
in regards to Torothanax the going in the hole idea wont work cause the scamers will just make new accounts, and im not sure if you can delete a char with a negative ballance.
inregards to Space Pinata what are you talking about, Should you not Be using this type of scam then these ideas wont harm you. I dont see placing a margine order with out the isk to back it up as being a "Legit" mechanic ,if you want to buy an item but want some liqued isk just in case something comes up sure use market trading, but the moment you dont have enought for the order it should come down.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.11.07 19:09:00 -
[15]
I never said it was completely bullet proof, just simple and a deterent. There are steps they could take to make give the penalty more sting.
Make margin trading untrainable on trial accounts. Lock the wallets on all characters on the account if any are in the hole. As you said, make negetive balance character's undeleteable (if they aren't now). At least then anyone using this would lose an account.
I realize 300k skill points or whatever isn't much of a loss. They could always up the rank on the skill or reduce the effectiveness per level. I don't really like either.
I don't really like having in game mechanics monitored heavily by ccp staff, but they could also flag accounts that go in the hole this way for review and possible banning. Along with any other involved accounts.
I think the first couple of measures would probably be plenty. In nearly 5 years of play (I do play the market) I've never seen this scam. It really can't be that profitable or it'd have caught on more by now I'd think.
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World Director
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Posted - 2010.11.08 05:02:00 -
[16]
omg look guys it's FREE MONEY
/must sell... |
cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.11.08 07:22:00 -
[17]
I have an EVEN easier way to fix margin trading:
1. In the buy order list it as a MARGIN BUY, instead of buy.
buy orders with cash will say "buy" buy orders on margin will say "margin"
TADA!
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Nasty Techniq
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Posted - 2010.11.08 13:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: cyndrogen I have an EVEN easier way to fix margin trading:
1. In the buy order list it as a MARGIN BUY, instead of buy.
buy orders with cash will say "buy" buy orders on margin will say "margin"
TADA!
Thing is as soon as you get the skill it will always say margin however much isk you have because even if you have more than the amount you need a margin amount is taken at first...
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Amon Tyr
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Posted - 2010.11.08 19:19:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Amon Tyr on 08/11/2010 19:20:56 Actually, there could be a button when creating a buy order to choose between regular buy or margin buy. Regular buy button would deduct the amount instantly.
Edit: TADA
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.11.09 00:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nasty Techniq
Thing is as soon as you get the skill it will always say margin however much isk you have because even if you have more than the amount you need a margin amount is taken at first...
However when you look at BUY orders in your market window, there will be TWO separate windows, one which displays BUY only orders from other players and one that displays MARGIN from other players.
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TheBooky
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Posted - 2010.11.09 13:28:00 -
[21]
Here is the most logical way of fixing this. If margin buying is to allow people to setup many buy orders at low cost.
If someone tries to complete a buy order and the owner does not have enough money to cover it concord or the trade commission or whatever will buy the item and the placer of the buy order can not make another buy order until they buy the item back from the trade commission/concord. This will make it so that the people who legitimately put up buy orders can continue to put them and make money but the scammers must pay the order regardless.
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NurseBob
Gallente DARK ADAMA
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Posted - 2010.11.09 13:46:00 -
[22]
if you dont read the contract before buying/selling then im sorry but you just lost ya isk!
not a scammer btw :) ____________________________________ You know your an eve adict when you total your car because your insurance is about to expire... |
Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.11.11 04:28:00 -
[23]
Originally by: NurseBob if you dont read the contract before buying/selling then im sorry but you just lost ya isk!
not a scammer btw :)
If you dont read the thread before posting then you don't belong on the forums.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.11 04:36:00 -
[24]
A simple % based fine would be enough if the buy order fails. Enough to make misusing the mechanic unprofitable. Sig ---
Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.11.11 04:42:00 -
[25]
It's not a contract scam.
And by the time the person being scammed gets to the point of selling the items he's bought up, the damage is already done, so a warning wouldn't help.
A fine would work IF the scammer cared about the account. Right now there's doesnt seem to be much reason to not just recycle the character or abandon the account.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.11 11:24:00 -
[26]
Ah so market scam?
Then simply color code the buy order, lets say red, to indicate the buyer can't afford to pay the order out.
The fine would work if the % was high enough. The guy doesn't get isk he's offering on the final buy order he gets the profit from the stuff he sells to the guy trying to make a profit off it.
So say the total buy order is 1 billion. He's selling the items to complete his buy order for 500 million. A 50% fine of the total buy order will net him 0% profit.
Even a 25% fine would be nice. I could run around collecting the items he needs in another region, complete his order and bam just cost him 250 million isk. Sig ---
Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.11 11:26:00 -
[27]
have t2 rigs on market and ignore contracts or do as i do check evemon and jita price history for the rigs first or just invent them
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cyndrogen
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Posted - 2010.11.11 18:22:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Torothanax
Originally by: NurseBob if you dont read the contract before buying/selling then im sorry but you just lost ya isk!
not a scammer btw :)
If you dont read the thread before posting then you don't belong on the forums.
You are talking to a droid man, a BOT! He's not even real!
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TheBooky
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Posted - 2010.11.12 13:37:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona Ah so market scam?
Then simply color code the buy order, lets say red, to indicate the buyer can't afford to pay the order out.
The fine would work if the % was high enough. The guy doesn't get isk he's offering on the final buy order he gets the profit from the stuff he sells to the guy trying to make a profit off it.
So say the total buy order is 1 billion. He's selling the items to complete his buy order for 500 million. A 50% fine of the total buy order will net him 0% profit.
Even a 25% fine would be nice. I could run around collecting the items he needs in another region, complete his order and bam just cost him 250 million isk.
A fine would not work as he already has 0 isk. The only way to fix this is to make characters with negative isk not deletable and for the order to go through anyways but put the person in negative isk or make it so the trade commission pays out the buy order and the character with said trade commission fine can not be deleted until payed. I see no reason a legitimate trader would have any offence to having to pay for an item they wanted anyways before they can buy again or making it so there characters can not be deleted until its paid. What use would a normal trader have for deleting his character.
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Illectroculus Defined
Chooch Inc. Twilight Federation
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Posted - 2010.12.18 00:47:00 -
[30]
The problem is, even if the character is undeletable it's still exploitable to multiply the money on an account. I mean say I take my 10billion isk, I create a buddy account, train it up, buy a plex to activate it and then in a quiet corner of lowsec I create a margin trading order using donated money from my main so I can make 20billion. Then, do the same for character slot 2 and get myself 40billion. slot 3 and get 80.
No any solution cannot involve creating isk, even though it would be nice to have traders risk getting into debt.
Ideally, the market interface should be smart enough to hide orders which could not be completed, but, this would probably add a whole bunch of extra activity, every time a user's wallet changed all the orders they placed would have to have their status updated, this would be a mess.
So, my suggestion is that the amount required in escrow should at minimum equal the buy price multiplied by the minimum volume.
So, if you put up a buy order where the minimum volume matches the total buy then you have to put the full order value into escrow, regardless of your margin trading skill. On the other hand if you put up a ginormous order for nocxium with a min-volume of 1 then you're fine and you only need to cover whatever percentage the margin trading skill lets you get away with.
Now, when the orders get used there's a guarantee that the minimum buy volume is covered, so if someone has collected enough stuff to fill this they're going to be able to sell it. When sell orders are filled the money is taken from the wallet, if there's not enough money in the wallet then the order gets cancelled after the sale is complete.
On top of this I'd like to see standings hits given to anyone who runs out of money to fill an order, since standings will affect the brokers fees and taxes this would make it marginally more expensive if you habitually fail to pay your bills.
Vote Illectro for CSM5! Supporting the New Generation of Eve Players |
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