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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Carnagge
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Posted - 2010.11.19 15:29:00 -
[181]
so just to clarify if the collateral isn't market value, steal it instead and sell it?
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REDNECKPRICECHECK
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Posted - 2010.11.19 16:15:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Hax Zoidberg
Originally by: corestwo
Originally by: Hax Zoidberg
Quote: Regretfully we are forced to remove 42 billion ISK as well as 4,3 million units of megacyte you received when you failed a courier contract issued by JitaTradeGoddess. This mecacyte was created out of thin air by a duplication exploit. Due to the potentially game-breaking amout involved, we have no option but to take this action. We sincerely apologize for this inconvenience.
It seems that not only is JitaTradeGoddess a moron, he's also an exploiter. There goes my ISKies.
So do CCP GMs regularly spell simple words like "amount" and words found in their own game such as "megacyte" incorrectly?
Go file a complaint with GM Nova then. He's the one who sent the message. In the title of the message he also misspelled 'characters' as 'charcaters'.
Go check EVE-Search for the image link that was removed, and read the subject line:
ISK Removed from your EVE Onliune charcaters
:F <--- FAIL smiley
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Rythm
Caldari True Power Team P0WER 0F TW0
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Posted - 2010.11.22 08:19:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Hax Zoidberg There goes my ISKies.
Number one. I have to try it myself.
AFK |
Zelot Blueice
XTC Cartel
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Posted - 2010.11.23 20:19:00 -
[184]
Hax, you have won eve. Would you mind giving me 500m? ____________________________________________ POS Management Proposal |
rain9441
Big Head Want Dolly
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Posted - 2010.11.23 20:44:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Zelot Blueice Hax, you have won eve. Would you mind giving me 500m?
Actually, he didn't win eve. Somewhere in between all the clutter lies about 5 relevent posts to the topic. Heres a quick summary.
1) Hax wins a huge hit on ganking a courier package 2) CCP takes away everything from Hax due to contents being illegally created. 3) Person who created contract comes forth saying contents were 'duped' and 'dupe method' was promptly given to CCP.
Honestly... I'm surprised this has fallen through the cracks. I'd expect a #$&*storm really.
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Cobalt Sixty
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2010.11.23 20:53:00 -
[186]
Originally by: JitaTradeGoddess - I find an exploit which causes an instability on the quantity of items concerned - I make an alt to try it - Not expecting this type of stuff to occur on server-side, I try various things on the items to be sure, hastily creating courier contracts with the said items - The first courier is sucessfully delivered in minutes, the others are accepted by Hax Zoidberg but not yet delivered - I decide to report the exploit after playing with it for a while, remembering how the previous starbase duping exploit went unnoticed for a year and had game-breaking consequences. Not being personally involved in RMT, the ISK/assets that could be gained this way were totally useless to me - Just as I report the exploit, I notice Hax Zoidberg naturally decided to fail the contracts as they contained ten times more items than I projected them to be - I report the exploit - The exploit is fixed by CCP developers in no time, and the assets generated this way are removed from respective accounts
And you did all this "testing" on the live server, not the test server
... As for your reactionary attempt to shutdown discussion of alternative (and equally plausible) theories regarding your own motives:
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Sam Typed
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Posted - 2010.11.24 00:41:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Sam Typed on 24/11/2010 00:42:08
Originally by: RAW23
It occurs to me, though, that there are some problems with this. Let's take your example of the loan contract and reverse it so that the loan is undercollateralised rather than overcollateralised. You put up your house as collateral for a loan and during the period of the loan the house falls in value to, say, 50% of the loan value. You then default on your loan. Isn't it the case that you still owe the bank the rest of the value of the loan? In this case it is not a straight swap is it?
This is known as Strategic Default as is becoming more common in today's economic climate.
Edit: much like with Strategic Cruisers, when the loan defaults you lose a random level of a skill in the Credit Rating category.
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JitaTradeGoddess
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Posted - 2010.11.24 16:21:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: JitaTradeGoddess - I find an exploit which causes an instability on the quantity of items concerned - I make an alt to try it - Not expecting this type of stuff to occur on server-side, I try various things on the items to be sure, hastily creating courier contracts with the said items - The first courier is sucessfully delivered in minutes, the others are accepted by Hax Zoidberg but not yet delivered - I decide to report the exploit after playing with it for a while, remembering how the previous starbase duping exploit went unnoticed for a year and had game-breaking consequences. Not being personally involved in RMT, the ISK/assets that could be gained this way were totally useless to me - Just as I report the exploit, I notice Hax Zoidberg naturally decided to fail the contracts as they contained ten times more items than I projected them to be - I report the exploit - The exploit is fixed by CCP developers in no time, and the assets generated this way are removed from respective accounts
And you did all this "testing" on the live server, not the test server
... As for your reactionary attempt to shutdown discussion of alternative (and equally plausible) theories regarding your own motives:
I do not remember saying I did any "testing." In fact if you re-read, I decided to report the exploit after "playing" with it for a while. The circumstances that led to this decision are those of respect and conscience, and definitely not the fear of my account being banned, cause it is worthless. However, I am open to the discussion of my motives, in fact the thread contains so many unrelated posts that it has lost its point.
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trader XI
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Posted - 2010.11.24 23:21:00 -
[189]
JitaGoddess:
Don't feed the troll. The FACT you are still posting and have an active account speaks for itself. Ignore the tin-foil hat crowd. |
Chell Charon
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Posted - 2010.12.19 14:38:00 -
[190]
mr.Hax well done, remember to petition for that 4b back.
On the matter of cargo delivery MD discussion.
a Courier contract with below 100% collateral is in fact: 1. Bad business practice. 2. Bad faith negotiation for misrepresenting: A) Risk involved in moving the cargo. (Even courier contracts can be scanned c/d ) B) Value of service provided by the courier.
In the end this part of misrepresentation is intended to scam the service provider.
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Maria Yumeno
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Posted - 2010.12.19 16:47:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Chell Charon mr.Hax well done, remember to petition for that 4b back.
On the matter of cargo delivery MD discussion.
a Courier contract with below 100% collateral is in fact: 1. Bad business practice. 2. Bad faith negotiation for misrepresenting: A) Risk involved in moving the cargo. (Even courier contracts can be scanned c/d ) B) Value of service provided by the courier.
In the end this part of misrepresentation is intended to scam the service provider.
He only created the contract in order to test the exploit. He had only invested 1bn isk in the product and so the collateral was apt. If he were to set callateral at billions of isk.. it would not have been accepted and so he would not have been able to test this.
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Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Horrible Labs SRS.
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Posted - 2010.12.19 17:56:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Caldariftw123
Originally by: Thrasymachus TheSophist
Consider: If the offeror was simply relying on trust (the violation of which underlies your ethical obligation) why have any collateral requirement at all? The use of the de minimus collateral was not intended to protect the offeror (6% protection?) but rather to deceive the potential haulers.
To believe it is 'deceiving potential haulers' implies that the hauler is buying the good somehow, when in fact they are being paid to ship it to somewhere. Deceiving about it's value is entirely irrelevant when all you are doing is hauling it, the only time it would be considered actually deceiving is if you intend to steal it if you think it's worth more than the collateral penalty would cost you.
I'd like to point out (as an on-again, off-again hauler) that deceiving potential haulers on value of goods IS relevant to the hauler, as no hauler wants to be worth ganking in highsec. The megacyte contracts are clearly worth hauling out the gank squad for, and as such, even legitimate haulers such as myself would be forced to fail it rather than risk our freighters.
And in the end, the reason I would take Thrasymachus's overall view that this is different from MD scamming is that there are multiple reasons to fail a contract; this person happens to have mentioned one, but you can also be ganked and therefore forced to a failure (which may or may not show up on a killboard).
not sure if that was mentioned yet, as I'm still on page 3...
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Doug RedMan
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Posted - 2010.12.23 21:03:00 -
[193]
The bottom line is this:
If the Contract creater doesnt make sure his collateral is high enough to cover the items then he = idiot
That is why it is there!
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Otto3d
Caldari Aerospace Corporation
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Posted - 2010.12.24 03:03:00 -
[194]
Unless my math is wrong (that or I misread the picture), but 5M of megacyte, sold at 2800 does not equal to 64 Billion, it equals to 14 Billion. (5mil x 2.8k=14B)
But good find though, you should try your hand in the lotter in real life, or casino... Mind sharing me some of those funds? I will be your best friend for a day :D "I came, I saw, I conquer." - Julius Caesar |
svetlana
Constellation Guard
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Posted - 2010.12.24 08:40:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Otto3d Unless my math is wrong (that or I misread the picture), but 5M of megacyte, sold at 2800 does not equal to 64 Billion, it equals to 14 Billion. (5mil x 2.8k=14B) ...
there is more than one can of 5m megacyte in that picture.
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Nakkano
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Posted - 2010.12.24 14:35:00 -
[196]
The owner of the courier contract has a responsibility to set adequate collateral for his goods. Neglecting to do so, intentionally or not, is just as bad as breaking open the goods. It puts the hauler at risk of being ganked for which they will never be reimbursed.
Now because this is a game, and because failing courier contracts has no impact on being able to accept public contracts later on, there is no moral obligation to complete the courier contract, it's a simple profit vs. loss choice that our friend Hax here was so talented at making.
I would even say there is no such thing as "theft" in this scenario, because there are safeguards put in place to prevent it. Intentionally failing the delivery would be no different than say, finding a Machariel on public contracts and buying it for 15 ISK. Both are cases of capitalizing on the naiveness of another person. But this is something they set themselves up for, it's not a predatory activity like scamming.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.01.10 18:09:00 -
[197]
It's an interesting issue (whether it's unethical to deliberately fail an undercollateralized public courier contract or not.) I can see both sides. But I come down on the side that says the terms of the contract (if public) are the entirety of the agreement (there are no hidden or implicit terms.) Hence what a courier contract really means is:
1. I have some stuff. It's worth X (or less) to me. If it's worth more than X to you, you can buy it from me for X.
2. If you don't want to buy it from me for X, it will be worth Y more to me if it were at Z station instead of where it is now. Bring it there.
No ethics involved. The deciding factors for me are who originated the contract and its public nature. A scam is always originated/offered by the scammer. If someone else ignorantly offers the general public something at horribly unfavorable terms to himself, you aren't a scammer by accepting his offer, ever.
Of course, I could be wrong. I often am.
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Lothar Krellum
Minmatar Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.01.11 12:58:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Darius III This Guy.... He is the one that duped me as I plotted to kill him for the collateral in this thread:
WELL PLAYED HAX
Ahaha. The iskies you tried to scam from him just seems to be a bit smaller in scale now heh Darius? Well played Hax.
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Drago Nace
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Posted - 2011.01.11 20:38:00 -
[199]
Originally by: JitaTradeGoddess
Originally by: Cobalt Sixty
Originally by: JitaTradeGoddess - I find an exploit which causes an instability on the quantity of items concerned - I make an alt to try it - Not expecting this type of stuff to occur on server-side, I try various things on the items to be sure, hastily creating courier contracts with the said items - The first courier is sucessfully delivered in minutes, the others are accepted by Hax Zoidberg but not yet delivered - I decide to report the exploit after playing with it for a while, remembering how the previous starbase duping exploit went unnoticed for a year and had game-breaking consequences. Not being personally involved in RMT, the ISK/assets that could be gained this way were totally useless to me - Just as I report the exploit, I notice Hax Zoidberg naturally decided to fail the contracts as they contained ten times more items than I projected them to be - I report the exploit - The exploit is fixed by CCP developers in no time, and the assets generated this way are removed from respective accounts
And you did all this "testing" on the live server, not the test server
... As for your reactionary attempt to shutdown discussion of alternative (and equally plausible) theories regarding your own motives:
I do not remember saying I did any "testing." In fact if you re-read, I decided to report the exploit after "playing" with it for a while. The circumstances that led to this decision are those of respect and conscience, and definitely not the fear of my account being banned, cause it is worthless. However, I am open to the discussion of my motives, in fact the thread contains so many unrelated posts that it has lost its point.
Just a quick question... What would be a logical paraphrase of the this quote: "I try various things on the items"? (as underlined and bolded above) I would inject that testing is indeed a logical paraphrase of that quote. So yeah, while the word "testing" was not used... a phrase that any logical person would come to that conclusion was indeed used.
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Gee Rifter
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Posted - 2011.01.11 23:00:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Gee Rifter on 11/01/2011 23:00:23 .
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.01.12 04:17:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Gabriel Virtus
The existence of such remedies is ancient and is built upon pre-existing ethical considerations. It is not wrong because of the legal remedies, it is independently wrong and the legal remedies are a societal construct to attempt to right these wrongs.... Absent a legal remedy, actions such as stealing and murder would still be unethical. ... There doesnÆt need to be a remedy in order for something to be ethically wrong.
...
tl;dr It is a scam. Whether or not there is a remedy in EVE is entirely irrelevant to the ethical dilemma posed. There is no remedy for absolutely anything that happens in the game, I would hope no one would argue that the absence of a remedy makes any action taken ethical.
You very either drastically misinterpreted his position or very deliberately avoided it. In no way do your responses reflect upon what he actually said. Furthermore, I question your assertion that it is independently wrong to deliberately fail a courier contract in Eve. This is Eve - a cruel, harsh, dangerous world... where capitalism has run amok and where this kind of behavior isn't simply tolerated.... its encouraged.
For this situation, the normative social rules and laws are in perfect agreement. This was not theft... it was simply smart business.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Jieka Olipia
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Posted - 2011.01.12 06:48:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Jieka Olipia on 12/01/2011 06:53:11 you guys are stupid. This is obviously fake. Look up info on jita unlimited and such. More likely dude has a alt with dough.
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Jarheed
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Posted - 2011.01.12 17:34:00 -
[203]
This thread is still going??
As it is, let's look at the problem from a different perspective. Imagine in RL you want to ship some very expensive goods from 1 end of the country to the other. Do you: A. Padlock the items to a lamp post with a note saying "To whom it may concern, please drop ú/$/Ç XXX with the bank as a collateral and he'll give you the key to all my stuff. Once you deliver it to location YYY then I'll give you back the collateral. If you don't turn up I keep the collateral."
or
B. Find a reputable haulage\courier company with verifiable credentials and hire them to move your goods for you personally?
In Eve, If you choose option A then you are creating public courier contracts where you have absolutely no control over who handles your goods. You are taking a big risk and if you don't cover the value of your goods fully and lose them well it's just tough really, you leave stuff on the street you have no control at all over who picks it up.
If you choose option B then you have selected an individual or corp whom you have reliable information that leads you to trust them with your goods. This may be a dedicated corp with a long history, a friendly character that you have built a rapport with and can trust and you create a private contract with the person YOU have chosen. Obviously there is still risk involved, however that risk is greatly reduced.
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Kharylien
Gallente Masked Rider Project
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Posted - 2011.01.13 03:34:00 -
[204]
There's another point people appear to be missing.
When you set up a courier contract you do, in face, consent to the possibility of losing the goods in exchange for the collateral, for one simple reason:
Your courier might get ganked.
No "unethical" behaviour on their part, they just might be unable to complete the contract. If your contract is under-collateralised, you're going to lose out badly.
I've failed some courier contracts in my time, for one reason or another. I've not made massive profit off doing so, because in one case I felt sorry for the guy and gave him his stuff back, and in other cases it was stuff I really wanted to have and so I've kept it. (I got an Interbus Shuttle for 5k and a Zephyr for 1k, for example. They are in my hangar and they're going to stay there FOREVER.)
Oddly, I've had exactly one person contact me in anger. And dude was VERY VERY ANGRY. The cargo of his that I didn't get around to delivering?
Five civilian mining drones.
For this he sent me infuriated e-mails - which started before the contract time was up, I believe, and were the primary reason I failed the contract on purpose - and put a "private bounty" of one hundred thousand isk on my head. (So far uncollected. I regret, somewhat, not accepting the invitation to fleet up with his corpmate just after that happened - I suspect it could have ended hilariously and with CONCORD intervention.)
I suspect the guy who put 5k isk collateral on an Interbus shuttle just headdesked privately to himself.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.13 07:31:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 13/01/2011 07:31:43 Simple, you should always examin your cargo
this is why.
or to put it another way, if he had accepted a 60bil cargo with a 120 mil payoutn on 4 Bil colateral and flown through a suicide gank camp. . .
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Ayaska Shran
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Posted - 2011.01.13 08:52:00 -
[206]
It is funny that people are still posting about mindless drivel when the point of the thread is:
There is/was currently a way to duplicate items, generating vast amounts of ISK, in a game primarily about economy.
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Roland Massatari
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Posted - 2011.01.15 02:41:00 -
[207]
You good sir are the bane and worse nightmare of all honest contract couriers and would be cheapskate's of the contract arena. I salute you. |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.01.17 21:38:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Steve Thomas on 17/01/2011 21:41:03
Originally by: Ayaska Shran It is funny that people are still posting about mindless drivel when the point of the thread is:
There is/was currently a way to duplicate items, generating vast amounts of ISK, in a game primarily about economy.
no
my point was to always examin your cargo.
and on top of that know what your Origin and destination realy are.
in this case reguardless of the cargo being duped, had he flown through a scanner trap and been blown at the next gate he would have still been out the 4 Billion escro because the cargo would have still shown as being what it was on scanner.
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