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scouty mcalterson
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Posted - 2010.11.13 03:24:00 -
[1]
Get rid of them, it's ridiculous that someone can get all the sales by bravely taking a price stance 0.01 isk cheaper than the next guy. If someone wants to take first position to get all sales on an item, they should have to make a significant price stance adjustment, say 5% cheaper than the current lowest.
People could match this price, and have their items sold at this price in queue fashion but if they want to move stuff RIGHT NOW! let them drop 5% to take the spot. I use the market a lot but would like to just throw stuff up at a price and continue to actually play the game, not have to fight 0.01 isk bots every 5 minutes if I want anything to sell.
I play 1k, 10k, 100k isk games but someone always undercuts that by 0.01 anyway until the market for an item is ruined for weeks. :P
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Shinsa Cortul
Amarr Futurus Validus
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Posted - 2010.11.13 04:10:00 -
[2]
One of the things that makes EVE so enjoyable for a bigger part of it's player base is that it's truly open to the player base as far as what is effected in the game. What your asking for is to take away the players ability to play the market as they want, while leaving the way you want intact.
I think that's a bit one sided. ____________ Strength through ingenuity, ingenuity through intelligence. |
Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.13 04:36:00 -
[3]
The only thing I don't like is that because the items are non-unique you can't see the buyer/seller, or control sales (in a place where you don't control who can dock). If you can look at someone who is consistently undercutting in a way you don't like, then you can opt to not buy from them. Or go kill them, or what have you.
That in itself could help lowsec out by having their markets be 'black' and not show the buyer or seller, allowing for more cutthroat practices but in a more dangerous area.
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Plasterboard
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Posted - 2010.11.13 04:43:00 -
[4]
I agree the 0.01 idk games can get stupid, and in many cases there is obvious botting. I'd suggest the time to change the price on an order be increased significantly from the current 5 mins. Maybe to an hour or two - this would also make the market more realistic.
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scouty mcalterson
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Posted - 2010.11.13 05:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Shinsa Cortul One of the things that makes EVE so enjoyable for a bigger part of it's player base is that it's truly open to the player base as far as what is effected in the game. What your asking for is to take away the players ability to play the market as they want, while leaving the way you want intact.
I think that's a bit one sided.
Let me get this straight, you think 0.01 isk games are truly enjoyable? I would intentionally pay a little extra to buy from a sell order that is a few days older than the 0.01 botters, because I'd rather that guy get my money. I can't even do this however, I will pay the higher price but the sale will go to the 0.01 isk bot at the lowest price anyway. Increasing the time between modifications wouldn't help much, the bots would have greater windows of sale time on you. You adjust your price, they adjust theirs in the next minute, they have lowest price for 14 minutes on you. Adjust yours again and same thing happens in 1 minute. The only solution is to make undercutting a significant price difference and not a single penny.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.13 05:25:00 -
[6]
Originally by: scouty mcalterson [ The only solution is to make undercutting a significant price difference and not a single penny.
Or make it so the buy/sell orders with the person's name appear instead of just item and price so you can vote with your money. Cause that's how capitalism works, and without information you can't vote properly, dernit.
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Flesh Slurper
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Posted - 2010.11.13 05:29:00 -
[7]
I don't mind them myself, in fact I use them to my advantage. If you time it right, you can pretty much keep your product right under someone else at all times. Sometimes I end up in "battles" with someone else and whoever wants their item sold the most/has more stamina to keep it up wins.
It's PVP - Market style.
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scouty mcalterson
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Posted - 2010.11.13 05:59:00 -
[8]
1. It's not pvp unless something explodes 2. Can you link me to the unlimited stamina bot you use?
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Flesh Slurper
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Posted - 2010.11.13 09:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: scouty mcalterson 1. It's not pvp unless something explodes 2. Can you link me to the unlimited stamina bot you use?
It is PVP, since obviously some people are exploding with anger that more dedicated sellers are willing to spend the time and isk to make sure their goods sell first.
You don't need unlimited stamina, you simply keep it above someone else until your stuff sells. No bot required. Or, you can just put stuff on the market and let it sell normally. I'm sure people may have *thought* I was a bot since I can play while I am at work and keep it up till the other person gives up if I really want to.
Lately though I don't even bother fighting with people. I only move my orders if someone puts up a huge order that the volume cant get past in a reasonable time frame. Sometimes I will put up sell orders for higher than the low sell, or buy orders for lower than the high buy, because I know they will get filled.
If someone 0.1s you a lot, you can always buy 1 unit of it and see who they are and wardec them or suicide gank them, etc. lol.
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Shinsa Cortul
Amarr Futurus Validus
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Posted - 2010.11.14 19:23:00 -
[10]
I'm not saying I enjoy it, but some people don't enjoy being suicide ganked either. So maybe that should be taken away all together too?
You're asking that something be changed so that you don't have to deal with it. What about building up a strategy against it, or beating them at thier own game.
____________ Strength through ingenuity, ingenuity through intelligence. |
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MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.14 19:36:00 -
[11]
What I'd like to see changed is being able to, as a consumer, choose who NOT to buy from. In other words, I don't want CCP to nerf the 0.01 isk wars. But I'd like to have the choice not to buy from players engaging in it.
As it is now, choosing to buy from another seller not only means that the lowest seller gets the transaction, but he gets it at the price the higher seller is selling for. So there really is no way for players discouraging it.
Grief a PVP'er. Run a mission today! |
Shinsa Cortul
Amarr Futurus Validus
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Posted - 2010.11.14 19:40:00 -
[12]
That wouldn't be a bad thing to impliment. At least being able to see who the buyer/seller is. Then you could get active about it and out market them.
There's plenty of ways to do it too. You find someone undercutting you too often, find out where they're getting thier goods from and apply some pressure... ____________ Strength through ingenuity, ingenuity through intelligence. |
Typhado3
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.14 20:19:00 -
[13]
Originally by: MatrixSkye Mk2 What I'd like to see changed is being able to, as a consumer, choose who NOT to buy from. In other words, I don't want CCP to nerf the 0.01 isk wars. But I'd like to have the choice not to buy from players engaging in it.
As it is now, choosing to buy from another seller not only means that the lowest seller gets the transaction, but he gets it at the price the higher seller is selling for. So there really is no way for players discouraging it.
This I strongly support
Would also help if you wanna find out who put up a buy/sell order. ------------------------------ God is an afk cloaker |
Torothanax
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Posted - 2010.11.15 02:39:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Torothanax on 15/11/2010 02:40:13
Originally by: Plasterboard I agree the 0.01 idk games can get stupid, and in many cases there is obvious botting. I'd suggest the time to change the price on an order be increased significantly from the current 5 mins. Maybe to an hour or two - this would also make the market more realistic.
This one here would help ---^
Or better yet, you can modify a sell order once every 12 hours. There's really no reason anyone needs to modify thier prices any more often then that unless they are playing .01 isk games. You could throw in the %5 or more price change to get around the wait time if needed.
It'd also be nice to see who owns each buy order. Make it a skill if need be, or bride someone like a locator agent to find out. It'd be nice to boycot certain people on the market, or find out who they are so you can take more direct measures to beat them on the market.
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Mr Minnah
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.16 22:36:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Mr Minnah on 16/11/2010 22:36:29 I agree, 0.01 isk games are stupid and it's just another form of grinding - market style. In the end, I spend so little time doing the smart part of trading: figuring which items to buy, when/where to buy/sell/produce etc and so much time doing these 0.01 isk games that I feel I'm being defeated by carpal tunnel syndrome.
Here's one idea: not remove 0.01 isk games, but make them automatic. That is, you could put an advanced buy order, with the option of always being 0.01 isk above the next highest order up to a specified price. Say: two bidders in the market, one posts a price of 450, another a price of 500, the buy orders end up as 450 and 450.01. Then you would spend more time trying to figure out what is the highest price you'd be willing to pay, instead of just mechanically changing prices all the time.
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riverini
Gallente Reliables Inc Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2010.11.16 23:31:00 -
[16]
Originally by: scouty mcalterson Get rid of them, it's ridiculous that someone can get all the sales by bravely taking a price stance 0.01 isk cheaper than the next guy. If someone wants to take first position to get all sales on an item, they should have to make a significant price stance adjustment, say 5% cheaper than the current lowest.
People could match this price, and have their items sold at this price in queue fashion but if they want to move stuff RIGHT NOW! let them drop 5% to take the spot. I use the market a lot but would like to just throw stuff up at a price and continue to actually play the game, not have to fight 0.01 isk bots every 5 minutes if I want anything to sell.
I play 1k, 10k, 100k isk games but someone always undercuts that by 0.01 anyway until the market for an item is ruined for weeks. :P
Lol dude, get a grip, what i do with these vermin basically i get a little bit worked up when ppl undercut me for a faction, so i just drop the pricey low and if they keep doing it all i do is to go down to jita+hauling cost (YOU WANNA F*CK WITH ME B|TCH!!!!???? UHHH!!!??? WHO IS THE MOTHERF*CKER NOW!!!! GO F*CK A GOAT!!! U GOT ALOT OF OTHER **** I CAN SELL FOR PROFIT!!!) and then i snap my fingers... (ask my corpchat mates about my market pv
it usually get that "f*ck off!" message sent loud and clear!
German Giggles riverini
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2010.11.16 23:42:00 -
[17]
Not sure how I feel about .01 ISK games. I do a lot of trade, and do from time to time get my ire up on someone who is setting a floor or ceiling with .01 ISK games, other wise, I don't care so much, the order will fill sooner or later.
However, perhaps some sort of less visible market would work a little better. Maybe something that allows Ask, Bid, Stop, Limit and Market Orders. On the back end, older orders would fill first, FIFO Order.
Individual Fill/Kill orders could be visible if the person wished it so, but would need to have some limits on size, such as no smaller than 5% or larger than 10% of the previous day's volume.
The Real Space Initiative - V6 (Forum Link)
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Anton Cyldragen
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Posted - 2010.11.17 03:32:00 -
[18]
bob barker would be proud of the cheap undercutting
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AtheistOfFail
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.17 04:58:00 -
[19]
Play the 0.01isk with me? I'll drop the price by 50 ISK the first time and 100 the second time. I have enough stock of the stuff i usually trade to crash a pretty big market
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Elysa Xarin
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Posted - 2010.11.17 08:32:00 -
[20]
Step 1) Drop price by 10-20-30% on a small amount
Step 2) Let them 0.1 isk you
Step 3) Buy their stock
Step 4) Profit
OP is ******ed. Traders operate on a 5-10% margin at best, most of the time. So your solution is to make trading unprofitable so you don't have to choose between fighting the market or selling for a few % lower? (Buy order).
GTFO. |
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Telvani
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Posted - 2010.11.17 09:12:00 -
[21]
I think a lot of people think removing the 0.01 isk game would let their stuff sell instantly, in reality profits from trading would just make a massive nose dive.
There is nothing to stop you undercutting by more than 0.01isk, the reason people play these games is for big profits, if your not willing to sacrifice profits join the game, if you are then drop the price till they dont sell.
0.01 isking isnt the only option, but unless you understand why your are doing anything other than it its probably the best option. e.g. If something is selling at inflated price, dropping by a small amount wont stop people 0.01isking you, it'll just cut profits.
0.01ISKers don't annoy me at all, if they have the patience let them play, what annoys me is noobs who cut their profits and everyone elses just out of stupidity not any form of planned manipulation. |
Nuts Nougat
Perkone
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Posted - 2010.11.17 09:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: scouty mcalterson I play 1k, 10k, 100k isk games but someone always undercuts that by 0.01 anyway until the market for an item is ruined for weeks. :P
So, what you're saying is you ruin an item price, someone undercuts you anyway, and you don't buy them out for profits, but instead let the item price just drop?
Well done sir. I'd call you names but I don't think there are any good enough.
0.01 games are fine. Remove 0.01 games and people will cry about 0.1 1 10 100 1000 or whatever games just the same. Only thing you will notice is: 1) Smart people making even more money from market. 2) You making even less money from market. ---
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Telvani
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Posted - 2010.11.17 15:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: scouty mcalterson I play 1k, 10k, 100k isk games but someone always undercuts that by 0.01 anyway until the market for an item is ruined for weeks. :P
So, what you're saying is you ruin an item price, someone undercuts you anyway, and you don't buy them out for profits, but instead let the item price just drop?
Well done sir. I'd call you names but I don't think there are any good enough.
0.01 games are fine. Remove 0.01 games and people will cry about 0.1 1 10 100 1000 or whatever games just the same. Only thing you will notice is: 1) Smart people making even more money from market. 2) You making even less money from market.
This is basically what I meant but worded better. You are bad at trading. |
Reddx Panther
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Posted - 2010.11.17 15:50:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Reddx Panther on 17/11/2010 15:49:52 Your suggestion wouldn't help, the guys with more ISK and time will still **** you from both sides market-wise.
Your problem is that you're ready so sell or buy an item to a lower/higher price than the current market order model forces you to specify.
So what you should be asking for is for Limit/Stop order types, which would significantly reduce the amount of time you'd need to invest into micromanaging your orders.
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Mr Minnah
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.21 02:26:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mr Minnah on 21/11/2010 02:29:32 Here are some of the problems I see with 0.01 games:
-It's menial and uninteresting. There are plenty of other menial activities in EVE so there's no need for one more.
-It makes prices move slowly. This favors the traders themselves, but at the expense of nontraders. As a missioner, one would like to simply sell their stuff to the highest buy order, so they lose a lot if by any reason the prices dropped recently and there's a 0.01 isk war going at 20% of normal market prices.
-It puts an unnecessary load on the market servers. If placing orders required more thought and care you would spend more time in one item instead of quickly going through many items, each time downloading market data.
-It favors bots. As anything that requires little thought, it's best done by a tireless bot then a carpal tunnel syndrome prone human.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.21 02:35:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 21/11/2010 02:35:46 I stand by what I said earlier. You can't control the prices people charge, but taking out the anonymity adds 'brand' value to at least your sales, with low sec stations being 'black' markets (read: anonymous orders) and null sec stations being at the decision of the holder.
Similar to the idea of high sec as Walmart and Kmart, low sec as pawn shops, and null sec as the mom n pop shops (which might be fronts for the mafia)
Edited some wording.
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Mr Minnah
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.21 02:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Elysa Xarin Step 1) Drop price by 10-20-30% on a small amount
Step 2) Let them 0.1 isk you
Step 3) Buy their stock
Step 4) Profit
OP is ******ed. Traders operate on a 5-10% margin at best, most of the time. So your solution is to make trading unprofitable so you don't have to choose between fighting the market or selling for a few % lower? (Buy order).
GTFO.
Unless you're facing someone stupid, or a stupid bot, this does not work. The reason is that if you undercut by too much, whoever is competing with you will just buy you out, the same way you plan to do (that is, if a bona fide customer doesn't do that first). If you don't undercut by enough to make it profitable to buy that order, the 0.01 iskers will just undercut you. And then, by definition, if you do buy their order, you just made them happy and did a bad deal.
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Mr Minnah
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.11.21 02:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 21/11/2010 02:35:46 I stand by what I said earlier. You can't control the prices people charge, but taking out the anonymity adds 'brand' value to at least your sales, with low sec stations being 'black' markets (read: anonymous orders) and null sec stations being at the decision of the holder.
Similar to the idea of high sec as Walmart and Kmart, low sec as pawn shops, and null sec as the mom n pop shops (which might be fronts for the mafia)
Edited some wording.
I see no serious harm in removing anonymity, but I don't see this getting rid of 0.01 isk games. Some people might decide to buy from someone else because of their honest business practices and whatever, but I guess most trade will still be from people buying from the cheapest sell order and selling to the highest buy order.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.21 02:59:00 -
[29]
It's a combination of things, mostly more control of your business and more 'open and fair' systems that are regulated. So if you don't want people from alliance X buying you could change it, or if person you don't like is in alliance Z you can make an informed decision if you want to give them isk or not. The ability to see the people undercutting is mostly just a bonus.
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Salpad
Caldari Carebears with Attitude
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Posted - 2010.11.23 05:08:00 -
[30]
Originally by: scouty mcalterson I play 1k, 10k, 100k isk games but someone always undercuts that by 0.01 anyway until the market for an item is ruined for weeks. :P
When the cost p/u is much less than 100 ISK, sometimes even less than 5 ISK, the 0.01 game is a necessity.
-- Salpad |
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