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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2010.11.13 15:06:00 -
[1]
TL;DR they have low PG and bad DPS, they are broken, fix them
Longer version: At first let me define what I mean when I say that some ship is broken. If ship A is made for specific role and it is bad for that role, therefore no one likes to fly it, then itĘs broken.
Most (if not all) caldari gunboats are dedicated snipers. They receive bonuses for range, unlikely to other races, they do bad DPS as a compensation. This concept looks nice on paper, maybe when bunch of guys were creating eve they thought that itĘs an awesome idea, but.. itĘs not. Whole line of ships is broken by this wrong assumption. For some reason CCP thinks that having extra range is such a huge advantage that itĘs worth to sacrifice .. everything else! Caldari gunboats shoot further than other ships from the same class, but they are very slow, have limited PG, bad drone bay, bad dpsą
Take moa as an example and compare it with rupture. Moa is unable to fit full rack of 250-s while rupture can fit 720mm guns and still has power for 10mn AB. Rupture does more dps, is faster, has decent drone bay, can choose damage types etc.. Only advantage Moa has is range.
Same goes with ferox, eagle, vulture. Only rokh is ok. ItĘs not popular because of shield, but this is another topic really.
So what is suggested fix? Moa: 1.needs PG enough to fit 5 250mm railguns WITHOUT any kind of powergrid boosting module 2.needs 25 m^3 drone bay
Ferox: 1.it also needs PG boost. Not as badly as moa, but still. 2.DPS of ferox is miserable, 6 gun slots is not a huge upgrade from moaĘs 5 slots. Ferox really needs 7 turret slots (like brutix) or 8 high slots (like cyclone)
Eagle: 1.To keep eagle in par with other sniper HAC-s, it needs PG enough to fit full rack of 250mm rails and MWD. All other sniper HACs can do that, why canĘt eagle? Munin can even fit 2 heavy missile launchers together with mwd. Eagle actually has only 3 effective low slots, as long as a 1 low is always occupied with RCU. 2.Well, thatĘs pretty much it. Eagle may easily become OP due to itĘs huge range.
Vulture 1.Seriously why would someone snipe in a command ship? There is no point in giving to vulture 2 range bonuses. Swap one of them with rof/damage bonus.
Rokh is fine, but it will shine if railguns get fixed. And why does it have only 50m^3 drone bay? Apoc is also a dedicated sniper but it has 75ą
In addition to that I need to say that All caldari and gallente ships are affected by broken hybrids. For caldari, railgun fix is particularly important. Rails really need damage modifier boost. This simple modification would make them actually usable.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.11.13 18:31:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Tub Chil TL;DR they have low PG and bad DPS, they are broken, fix them
Signed.
Also, add another turret slot to the Merlin. Right now, it looks like it was designed by a Minmatar saboteur who wanted to force all Caldari gunboat pilots to waste some time training missile skills, while at the same time omitting any flexibility.
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Alara IonStorm
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.13 18:39:00 -
[3]
Double Signed
-- I am now on a Crusade to Fix the Omen!
For Great Justice!
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Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.13 19:13:00 -
[4]
Nope. CaldaTi are fine as they are, no need to dumb down the game even more by moving towards even less variety. Don't like Caldari gunships? Don't fly them, that easy.
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GIGAR
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.13 19:37:00 -
[5]
Edited by: GIGAR on 13/11/2010 19:45:39
Originally by: Dlardrageth waaaah don't let other races combat my OP lasers, waaah
Immature jokes aside, I wouldn't mind if the whole thing got a little (a lot) love.
------------ The story of the Sansha Nation:
1) Sansha: "Well, I found a way to pwn everything, but it's not very ethical :/" 2) The 4 Empires: *Cries like babies and goes to war, 4vs1* |
Tub Chil
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Posted - 2010.11.13 19:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dlardrageth Nope. CaldaTi are fine as they are, no need to dumb down the game even more by moving towards even less variety. Don't like Caldari gunships? Don't fly them, that easy.
1) you should explain why they are "fine" 2) bad ships don't ad variety to eve 3) I don't fly them. actually.. very few people do.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.13 21:22:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dlardrageth Nope. CaldaTi are fine as they are, no need to dumb down the game even more by moving towards even less variety. Don't like Caldari gunships? Don't fly them, that easy.
Incessant anti-caldari whine detected.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.13 22:16:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dlardrageth Nope. CaldaTi are fine as they are, no need to dumb down the game even more by moving towards even less variety. Don't like Caldari gunships? Don't fly them, that easy.
That makes less sense than a penny.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Lykouleon
Trust Doesn't Rust
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Posted - 2010.11.13 23:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Anubis Xian That makes less sense than a penny.
...I see what you did there
Quote: Lord Makk > Our pilots are masochist buttjockey
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CharmingButIrrational
Roswell Project Victimz
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Posted - 2010.11.14 00:22:00 -
[10]
just give them lasers?
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Hugo Syrus
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Posted - 2010.11.14 04:18:00 -
[11]
it's impossible to find any use for most Caldari gunboats.. except Eagle and Rokh
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Fohacidal
SPORADIC MOVEMENT
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Posted - 2010.11.14 05:54:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Fohacidal on 14/11/2010 05:54:31 I approve
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Aiwha
101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2010.11.14 06:41:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Aiwha on 14/11/2010 06:41:23
Originally by: Hugo Syrus it's impossible to find any use for most Caldari gunboats.. except Eagle and Rokh
My Ferox wants a word with you.
But it wants a small PG buff even more. Supported.
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Gullible
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.11.14 06:50:00 -
[14]
Edited by: captain foivos on 14/11/2010 06:49:56 I think most of these problems would be solved if rails didn't suck so hard, but at the same time I'm a pretty much pure Caldari pilot on one of my accounts and it's a terrible problem that we have 1 missile battleship, 1 missile battlecruiser, 1 missile cruiser, and however many frigates it is that use missiles, and Caldari's the missile-centric race. And the hybrid ships that the Caldari do have are pretty pathetic.
Edit: forgot to click support the first time around.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.14 08:23:00 -
[15]
Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 14/11/2010 08:23:24 The real problem with Caldari Gunboats is that hybrids are easily the worst weapon systems in Eve.
edit: And lack of powergrid.
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captain foivos
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Posted - 2010.11.14 08:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 14/11/2010 08:23:24 The real problem with Caldari Gunboats is that hybrids are easily the worst weapon systems in Eve.
edit: And lack of powergrid.
Pretty much this.
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Dlardrageth
ANZAC ALLIANCE IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.14 13:54:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tub Chil
Originally by: Dlardrageth Nope. CaldaTi are fine as they are, no need to dumb down the game even more by moving towards even less variety. Don't like Caldari gunships? Don't fly them, that easy.
1) you should explain why they are "fine" 2) bad ships don't ad variety to eve 3) I don't fly them. actually.. very few people do.
Towards 1) - Because they still sell in quantities and if they were totally broken they wouldn't. Take a look at market logs in Jita e.g. Apart from this rather simplistic answer... Bonuses and role is "Working as Intended", the main issue is really the general problem with hybrid weapons systems, not the ships itself. Have to agree there with the Goonie a couple posts prior.
Towards 2) - That may be your opinion. Alas, before you can prove that ALL Caldari gunboats are in fact "bad" and it is not more of a weapons system issue, that is a non-argument. Apart from even a terrible ship adding variety, just not the one you would prefer. "Varitey" is by no means tied to quality or performance, sorry.
Towards 3) - So all the sales of their hulls are solely for reprocessing and insurance fraud? I don't think so...
TL:DR - Terrible idea tweaking Caldari gunboats to compensate for issues with hybrid guns. Best way to throw the whole balance even more out of the window. How about you focus more energy on rebalancing hybrids instead?
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souhyeahright
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Posted - 2010.11.14 15:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Dlardrageth TL:DR - Terrible idea tweaking Caldari gunboats to compensate for issues with hybrid guns. Best way to throw the whole balance even more out of the window. How about you focus more energy on rebalancing hybrids instead?
Even if medium/large hybrids were super awesome, most Caldari gunboats would still be crippled and near-unfittable.
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Soporo
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Posted - 2010.11.14 16:25:00 -
[19]
Quote: Even if medium/large hybrids were super awesome, most Caldari gunboats would still be crippled and near-unfittable.
This. Bad tracking, bad dps, uses cap, uses ammo, extremely onerous fitting requirement weapon system plus low grid ships = fail.
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Jacob Stov
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Posted - 2010.11.15 01:06:00 -
[20]
Yes, many Caldari gunboats need more powergrid.
I don't know if Caldari railboats really need more turrets or dronebay. They are obviously designed for sniping.
I'm fine with the fact that Caldari railboats do less damage at point blank then other races' ships. But they should deal competetive damage at typical fleet ranges. For example the Rokh should reach 170 km with CN thorium with a sniper fit to compete damage wise with T2 ammo of other races' damage bonused ships. So, yes pls more range for Caldari T1 and a different secondary bonus for Caldari T2.
A plain buff to Railguns will probably make Gallente ships more interesting, but certainly not Caldari railboats.
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Rip Minner
Gallente ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2010.11.15 02:20:00 -
[21]
No not supported.
1. We need to rebalance Hybirds as a hole first before you work on ships.
2. Stop crying about PG on Shield ships. You get Higher CPU lower PG. Armor ships get Higher PG lower CPU thats the way it is.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2010.11.15 02:43:00 -
[22]
Caldari pilot with 1,000 SP in missiles signing in. ___________
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Aralyn Cormallen
Wraith.Wing Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2010.11.15 13:57:00 -
[23]
I want to love my Ferox, I really do.
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Nischara
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Posted - 2010.11.15 14:55:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Nischara on 15/11/2010 14:57:37
Originally by: Rip Minner No not supported.
1. We need to rebalance Hybirds as a hole first before you work on ships.
2. Stop crying about PG on Shield ships. You get Higher CPU lower PG. Armor ships get Higher PG lower CPU thats the way it is.
saved me the trouble of typing that :D and dont get me started on galente ships lacking fittings (hyperion, brutix, try EFT-ing those with active tank for which they are designed)
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matthiastee
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Posted - 2010.11.15 15:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Nischara Edited by: Nischara on 15/11/2010 14:57:37
Originally by: Rip Minner No not supported.
1. We need to rebalance Hybirds as a hole first before you work on ships.
2. Stop crying about PG on Shield ships. You get Higher CPU lower PG. Armor ships get Higher PG lower CPU thats the way it is.
saved me the trouble of typing that :D and dont get me started on galente ships lacking fittings (hyperion, brutix, try EFT-ing those with active tank for which they are designed)
[Brutix, New Setup 1] Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
[Hyperion, New Setup 1] Large Armor Repairer II Large Armor Repairer II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Quad LiF Fueled I Booster Rockets Warp Scrambler II Stasis Webifier II
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L Electron Blaster Cannon II, Antimatter Charge L
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Ogre II x3 Hammerhead II x2 derp
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matthiastee
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Posted - 2010.11.15 15:21:00 -
[26]
oops accidently put trimarks on the brutix
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FlameGlow
Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.15 20:26:00 -
[27]
Edited by: FlameGlow on 15/11/2010 20:26:54
Originally by: Nischara
2. Stop crying about PG on Shield ships. You get Higher CPU lower PG. Armor ships get Higher PG lower CPU thats the way it is.
unfortunately CPU/PG on ferox, eagle and moa look to be balanced as if they should fit missiles, on typical 250mm rail fit there is free CPU and PG is 15-20% overused
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Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.15 20:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hugo Syrus it's impossible to find any use for most Caldari gunboats.. except Eagle and Rokh
What's the use for an Eagle?
"Utterly pitiful dps at long range" doesn't count.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2010.11.15 21:34:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Scatim Helicon
Originally by: Hugo Syrus it's impossible to find any use for most Caldari gunboats.. except Eagle and Rokh
What's the use for an Eagle?
"Utterly pitiful dps at long range" doesn't count.
The Eagle's ugly hull scares bullets away. It is really ugly and lacking compared to other sniper HACs (but that has more to do with hybrids than the ship itself).
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Nischara
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Posted - 2010.11.16 03:20:00 -
[30]
Originally by: matthiastee
..... ship fittings .....
that brutix has 370dps, almost as much as a good t1 cruiser and that on 1,5km range, that's just around 200 dps at 4km, which is as close as you are going to can get in an armor riged BC, and that's if youre lucky, 6km dps around 100 so a maybe 200dps brutix, with a active tank of 400 .. i didnt say it's impossible to fit, i said it lacks fittings because a fit like that sucks..... compared to anything
i'm not going to look at the hyperion numbers, but the same thing applies, only with that you wont be able to hit anything, ever, because of large blaster tracking
all caldari ships can fit a rack of the smallest railguns, no problem, and youre trying to support this thread by fitting the smallest blasters to prove a point?
my point still stands hybrids need fixing first, then issues about ships should be raised, because now there's no problem with caldari gunboats, there's a problem with hybrids and all ships using them (except maybe mega)
i do also apologize to everyone for the OT
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