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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.15 06:38:00 -
[1]
Comment seeking time on random idea of the day. Simple Mode on. Railgun = 'Sniper' weapon 'Sniper' weapon = Hit hard, Slow Firing, Not good hit short range Rails no do this. Change rail do this.
Pro - A purpose for rails, functional sniper weapon. PvP usage of railboats up. Group PvE usability up. Cons - Possible conflicting purpose with artillery. Solo ratting suffers.
Possible solution, or terribad idea?
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Rakivic
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2010.11.15 07:19:00 -
[2]
So basically to turn rail guns into an artillery type weapon ie. low rate-of-fire, high salvo damage.
Sounds fine to me because right now rails suck and need something dome with them.
Signed
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Misanthra
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Posted - 2010.11.15 07:35:00 -
[3]
decent tradeoff...I'd buy it.
Better than the spitballs we fire out now.
Solo ratting wont suffer though, who rats with rails lol. rokh ratters need a dose of more pain to make them realize its just wrong.., gallente ships just wake up rats to bring them in range of the drones lol.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.15 07:55:00 -
[4]
+1 from me. Sig ---
Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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davet517
M. Corp Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2010.11.15 10:52:00 -
[5]
If you do that you might just as well eliminate rails as a weapon system and let Caldari and Gallante use Arty.
The better solution would probably be to give a boost to the scan res of Gallante and Caldari sniper boats, so that, basically they could lock a target and get two volleys off in the time it would take a Mini BS to lock and volley once.
Nodoby is flying sniper Caldari and Gallente boats anymore because of the threat of AHAC gangs being warped on top of them, since they aren't as agile as Tempests and can't alpha strike and then GTFO like a Tempest can.
If you gave Galante and Caldari a scan res boost it would help them be more effective against AHACs in general, so you wouldn't have to change the weapons system to be just like Arties. It would also give players a reason to fly these ships again. They are seldom seen in fleets right now.
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Lemmy Kravitz
Minmatar Rebirth.
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Posted - 2010.11.15 11:02:00 -
[6]
meh, I say my solution is best. Keep rails the same.
Change Caldari boats to allow locks past 250km on their own, do not allow this bonus for boats with ECM bonus
Gallant gets same thing, but not for boats with Drone bonus. ------------------------------------------------- "Vae Victis" -Brennus |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.11.15 11:27:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha ..Possible solution, or terribad idea?
I would go with terribad since the "solution" is identical to what was done to artillery.
With the significant tracking and range bonuses available on hybrid ships, an alpha solution would make them far too powerful .. just look what the lowly Tempest is able to do even in fall-off, rails having 25%+ more optimal would be monstrous.
Alpha is covered by artillery. What we need to find out is which of beams or rails should be the low-alpha/high-dps and which should be the mid-point.
My take: Designing rails to be the mid-point would be advantageous due to ammo concerns which means that RoF/cap/DmgMod of beams should be tweaked to make more room in "the tables" for rails.
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.11.15 13:37:00 -
[8]
Sorry, all the cool features like faster locking and alpha damage have been given to Minmatar ships and Minmatar weapons systems.
Hybrids are supposed to be a combination (hence, hybrids) of all the bad features of Projectiles and Lasers (10 sec reload, ridiculous fitting requirements, limited damage type, poor optimal and poor falloff).
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Daedalus II
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Posted - 2010.11.15 14:39:00 -
[9]
Given that railguns both require ammo, and use approx half as much cap as a laser do, shouldn't a typical railgun do around the damage of 1 artillery + 0.5 laser? Ie increase the damage output of them a bit.
If we give scores (between 1 and 3) to volley damage, range and over time damage to even out weapon systems we could have it this way to distinguish different weapon systems: Artillery: high volley (3), long range (3), medium damage over time (2) = 8 Lasers: medium volley (2), medium range (2), high damage over time (3) = 7 Railguns: low volley (1), long range (3), high damage over time (3) = 7 Missiles: high volley (3), long range (3), medium damage over time (2) = 8
Currently rails have medium damage over time, which results in the lowest score of all weapon systems, giving it high damage over time at least brings it up a notch. Railguns would thus be fast cycling weapons with low damage each cycle but able to cram out more cycles than even a laser.
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Exploited Engineer
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Posted - 2010.11.15 18:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha Possible solution, or terribad idea?
I'd rather suggest making railguns the long-range weapons that prefers DPS over alpha. Kind of like arty, just in reverse.
To do that, I'd start with giving Caldari railboats (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh) a +5% ROF bonus per ship skill level.
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Nova Fox
Gallente Novafox Shipyards
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Posted - 2010.11.15 18:43:00 -
[11]
i rather keep my sustained bombarding option. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 1SEPT10
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.15 19:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Exploited Engineer
I'd rather suggest making railguns the long-range weapons that prefers DPS over alpha. Kind of like arty, just in reverse.
To do that, I'd start with giving Caldari railboats (Merlin, Moa, Ferox, Rokh) a +5% ROF bonus per ship skill level.
Are rails not supposed to be HYBRIDS? By the definition of hybrid they should be a happy medium between energy and projectile, not inferior to both. Rails SHOULD have the second best alpha, second best dps, and the second best tracking. Not the WORST ON ALL OF THE ABOVE. Them having the longest range is fine with me. That at least gives them a sense of uniqueness.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.11.15 21:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kai Yuen Are rails not supposed to be HYBRIDS? By the definition of hybrid they should be a happy medium between energy and projectile...
Pretty sure "hybrids" refer to the SciFi term, part energy-weapon/part slug-thrower and not where/what they are supposed to be in relation to the other weapon systems.
We can place them anywhere we damn well please in relation to lasers/projectiles as long as it balanced, useful and caters to gameplay
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.15 21:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Pretty sure "hybrids" refer to the SciFi term, part energy-weapon/part slug-thrower and not where/what they are supposed to be in relation to the other weapon systems.
We can place them anywhere we damn well please in relation to lasers/projectiles as long as it balanced, useful and caters to gameplay
That's a load of bull****. The scientific name for a rail gun is rail gun. "Hybrids" are a name exclusive to EVE and they refer to the fact that the weapon is both energy and projectile based. They use cap, but not as much as lasers. They were intended to be in between the two, but that was long before both energy and projectile weapons got a lot of love, not to mention the web nerf. Hybrids have been left out. They're supposed to be in between. That's why they were called HYBRIDS and that's the ONLY reason they were called hybrids. Second best tracking, second best alpha, second best DPS. That was the way it was originally and the way it needs to be again.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.15 23:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: davet517 Edited by: davet517 on 15/11/2010 11:02:06
If you do that you might just as well eliminate rails as a weapon system and let Caldari and Gallante use Arty.
The better solution would probably be to give a boost to the scan res of Gallante and Caldari sniper boats, along with maybe boosting rail tracking a bit, so that, basically they could lock a target and get two volleys off in the time it would take a Mini BS to lock and volley once, and hit a moving target harder than Arties do.
Nodoby is flying sniper Caldari and Gallente boats anymore because of the threat of AHAC gangs being warped on top of them, since they aren't as agile as Tempests and can't alpha strike and then GTFO like a Tempest can.
If you gave Galante and Caldari a scan res boost along with maybe boosting the tracking of rails some it would help them be more effective against AHACs in general, so you wouldn't have to change the weapons system to be just like Arties. It would also give players a reason to fly these ships again. They are seldom seen in fleets right now.
Yeah that sounds cooler then alpha. Sig ---
Quote: Originally by Oveur: High security empire space is supposed to be quite safe. ... That's the whole point of high security.
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.15 23:35:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Originally by: davet517 Edited by: davet517 on 15/11/2010 11:02:06
If you do that you might just as well eliminate rails as a weapon system and let Caldari and Gallante use Arty.
The better solution would probably be to give a boost to the scan res of Gallante and Caldari sniper boats, along with maybe boosting rail tracking a bit, so that, basically they could lock a target and get two volleys off in the time it would take a Mini BS to lock and volley once, and hit a moving target harder than Arties do.
Nodoby is flying sniper Caldari and Gallente boats anymore because of the threat of AHAC gangs being warped on top of them, since they aren't as agile as Tempests and can't alpha strike and then GTFO like a Tempest can.
If you gave Galante and Caldari a scan res boost along with maybe boosting the tracking of rails some it would help them be more effective against AHACs in general, so you wouldn't have to change the weapons system to be just like Arties. It would also give players a reason to fly these ships again. They are seldom seen in fleets right now.
Yeah that sounds cooler then alpha.
No, it doesn't. Chipping the paint off of your enemy is useless, regardless of what range and how accurately you can do it. Rails have the least DPS and the smallest alpha. Tracking won't save them. Yes, they need more tracking, but they need more than just tracking. That'll just chip paint off accurately. I don't want to chip paint. I want to make pretty blue explosions of people OTHER THAN myself. Fix them to be the medium between projectile and energy like they were meant to be.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.16 00:36:00 -
[17]
I hadn't had too much experience with arty's so I assumed that the range factor was handled by higher tracking. Looking at the stats proved this untrue, so taking the idea I suggested in combination with increasing artillery tracking would be my final proposal. Yes, you have two weapon systems with similar damage profiles, but then considering the range and tracking differences they would fill two different roles. Uniqueness of role + ease of implementation was my main focus.
I do consider the range vs tracking scale enough to differentiate from artillery, unlike some comments made. It's like the difference between a sniper and grenade launcher in your typical FPS. They tend to do similar damage (AoE aside, and with some having higher launcher damage but lower RoF ((see Halo))), but it is considerably easier to hit with a launcher. The numbers seem similar but no one is calling a sniper and launcher the same weapon.
TL;DR - Suggestion edited to either equal alpha and dps of rail/arty with arty receiving tracking bonus to combat rail optimal, or rail being modified to 2nd highest alpha with slightly higher DPS than arty.
Range and tracking differentiation is enough to make a weapon unique imo, so it is not the same as just switching Gal and Cal to arty bonuses.
Appreciate the commenting, it's actually been useful.
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McEivalley
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2010.11.16 00:45:00 -
[18]
There is a solution to this, it's called increasing ROF. ATM rails are the most useless LR weapons in the game. Just because blasters are so bad they are used as a medium range weapons on megas, due to megas damage bonuses. For all intents and purposes, 1400 artys are preferable (especially in mid ranges with tracking enhanced ammo) and that's without mentioning tachyons.
But tbqfh, LR weapons are obsolete until on grid warp range is increased to a minimum of 200km. As long as you can warp 150km you can basically reallocate yourself almost anywhere on the grid with decent probers in your fleet, which means sniping is a worthless idea fleets. There is no point in changing anything baout them as long as you can warp through their optimal and right up their throats in less time it takes the fleet to lock their primary.
Editing your watchlist |
Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.16 00:55:00 -
[19]
Originally by: McEivalley There is a solution to this, it's called increasing ROF. ATM rails are the most useless LR weapons in the game. Just because blasters are so bad they are used as a medium range weapons on megas, due to megas damage bonuses. For all intents and purposes, 1400 artys are preferable (especially in mid ranges with tracking enhanced ammo) and that's without mentioning tachyons.
But tbqfh, LR weapons are obsolete until on grid warp range is increased to a minimum of 200km. As long as you can warp 150km you can basically reallocate yourself almost anywhere on the grid with decent probers in your fleet, which means sniping is a worthless idea fleets. There is no point in changing anything baout them as long as you can warp through their optimal and right up their throats in less time it takes the fleet to lock their primary.
That's untrue for Minmitar. Tempests and Machs make fantastic snipers. Excellent align time, insanely high alpha, and high sub-warp speed makes them perfect for the role. Probe me out? I'll be in warp before you exit warp, no matter how short your warp is. Gallente is the exact opposite. Loooooooong align time, ponderously slow top speed, armor tank for added mass, which means slower acceleration, and an alpha that isn't even worth mentioning. Throw tracking nightmares on top of that and they aren't even a player in the sniper fleet. Train Minmatar and projectiles and fly Angel like everyone else.
Rails need a complete work over to make them usable on the slow ass ships they've been put on. There's nothing wrong with being slow, but you have to have an advantage that faster ships don't. Gallente have none. There's nothing good about Gallente vs Minmatar. Capless, highly variable range, extremely high alpha, and decent tracking weapons vs dirt. The whole hybrids system needs a rework. It has to make sense to put that weapon system on Gallente.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.16 01:18:00 -
[20]
I see alot of 'Rails need a whole rework' but what does that even mean? I agree the ongrid warp is an issue for snipers, but that's another thread entirely.
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.16 01:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha I see alot of 'Rails need a whole rework' but what does that even mean? I agree the ongrid warp is an issue for snipers, but that's another thread entirely.
Find patch notes where they buffed projectiles. THAT'S what we mean.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.16 01:40:00 -
[22]
Simple searches only turned up changes before dominion with ammo changes and artillery alpha. They're already modifying T2 ammo for Incursion, so what is left in the overhaul you're proposing, assuming I found the thing you are mentioning.
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.16 02:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha Simple searches only turned up changes before dominion with ammo changes and artillery alpha. They're already modifying T2 ammo for Incursion, so what is left in the overhaul you're proposing, assuming I found the thing you are mentioning.
Again with the "well maybe t2 ammo will save them" when every other weapon type in the game functions just fine with faction ammo. Why would t2 ammo suddenly be the great white hope hybrids have been looking for? Everyone who doesn't use hybrids, i.e. you, is hoping that some unaffiliated buff will somehow make them balanced again. That's just pure ignorance. What do I suggest?
Blasters: More range, more fall off, better tracking. They should have second longest range, second longest falloff, and the second best tracking of the 3 gunnery weapon systems.
Rail Guns: More tracking, more DPS, more Alpha. They should have the second highest alpha, the second highest DPS, and the second highest tracking of the 3 gunnery weapon systems.
They are called "hybrids" after all. It's not a stretch to think they should be a happy medium between projectiles and energy weapons. In fact, before both projectiles AND energy weapons got a buff that was the way it was. Now we've augmented 2 weapon types and left one to rot. Blasters have the shortest range AND the shortest fall off of the close range weapon types, yet are fit on the slowest ships around. Rail guns have the lowest alpha, the lowest dps, AND the lowest tracking of the long range weapon types. Are we seeing a pattern here? There's no clear advantage to using hybrids. Either they're out of range, you chip their paint, or you just plain can't hit them. I don't necessarily want them to be the best at anything, but I DEFINITELY don't want them to be the worst at EVERYTHING.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.16 02:58:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 16/11/2010 03:04:27 I didn't say T2 ammo would save them. I was wondering what your complete overhaul was, beyond one or two stat changes and ammunition changes. Altering them to middle ground or changing them to my idea is nothing more than a number tweak with different usages as an outcome. Throw the faction ammo on top of the T2 ammo change and what is left in the 'complete overhaul' argument?
Not trying to be a ****, I just don't see what else is needed and you haven't presented anything but a variance of the weapon stat changes and "Fix faction ammo too".
Edit - And I don't agree so much with the 'hybrid' meaning a hybrid of statistics. All the other weapons are named for the type of ammunition used, not their statistics. It is a stretch to assume that hybrids are somehow special in that regard. I think the middle of the road option for rails is a much more boring option than altering them to a true 'sniper' weapon. It likely requires more tweaks than just that (like the 150k warp issue), but some role they are good at would be a far cry better than "They're a middling weapon with a range advantage".
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.16 03:43:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Kai Yuen on 16/11/2010 03:46:08 Edited by: Kai Yuen on 16/11/2010 03:45:43 Edited by: Kai Yuen on 16/11/2010 03:45:14
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 16/11/2010 03:13:36 Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 16/11/2010 03:07:36 Edited by: Kabaal S''sylistha on 16/11/2010 03:04:27 I didn't say T2 ammo would save them. I was wondering what your complete overhaul was, beyond one or two stat changes and ammunition changes. Altering them to middle ground or changing them to my idea is nothing more than a number tweak with different usages as an outcome. Throw the faction ammo on top of the T2 ammo change and what is left in the 'complete overhaul' argument?
Not trying to be a ****, I just don't see what else is needed and you haven't presented anything but a variance of the weapon stat changes and "Fix faction ammo too".
Edit - And I don't agree so much with the 'hybrid' meaning a hybrid of statistics. All the other weapons are named for the type of ammunition used, not their statistics. It is a stretch to assume that hybrids are somehow special in that regard. I think the middle of the road option for rails is a much more boring option than altering them to a true 'sniper' weapon, though my middle ground compromise with you would be sacrificing a bit of tracking for a bit more alpha to your suggestion for rails. It likely requires more tweaks than just either of those (like the 150k warp issue), but some role they are good at would be a far cry better than current. Edit edit - And I also didn't say leave blasters to rot. I just don't have any proposed solution for them and I expect someone who uses them to offer it up. And 1.3m missiles, 600k gunnery. Assumptions suck.
And a third edit since by your previous reactions I think you need things spelled out a bit more.
My changes actually move the weapon type into a competitive position from the total blunder it is right now. It's way more than just a few stat changes, but clearly you need things spelled out for you a little better.
Edit: And yes they were meant to be in between energy and projectiles. As I already stated, before the energy and projectile buffs that was the case. This predates even the nano and web nerfs. Why should we suddenly sacrifice tracking that we don't have for alpha that should already be ours. Your middle ground isn't a middle ground. It's just make our lamest stat lamer while pretending you're buffing us.
Edit: And I DO use blasters and I HAVE offered a solution up. Kthx.
And a third edit since by your previous reactions I think you need things spelled out a bit more.
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Kabaal S'sylistha
Caldari The Technomages Comrades-Of-Two
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Posted - 2010.11.16 04:09:00 -
[26]
Your changes *are* a number change. You're not saying suddenly "hybrid shots make them cry, slowing them down" which would be something other than a number change. I just don't understand this 'complete overhaul' cry when ALL you are suggesting is number changes to the guns and ammo. If you had an actual response to this, I was willing to listen but instead you want to cry about it and fail at insults. I argue, but I argue respectfully until you cross the line of douchebaggery. It's a lesson you learn as an adult.
Your first edit is something approaching an actual argument. Your second is continuing in response to the perceived insults (I didn't offer a blaster suggestion because *I* don't have one nor do I have a comment on yours), and the third is flattery.
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Crazy KSK
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Posted - 2010.11.16 04:11:00 -
[27]
rails should be the weapon system with the highest dps and the highest range because they have the drawback of ammo and cap
as it stands now beams have the highest dps and the best tracking and are able to best damage at all ranges due to being able to instantly switch out crystals on top of that it doesn't use ammo so it can fire for ever on a cap stable ship without the need to reload
and artillery has the highest volley damage and does not use cap
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Markus Reese
Caldari Lorentzian Expeditionaries
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:09:00 -
[28]
Well, unless I am missing the math, but longer range does add up to more damage. For example, back to the rokh. You can use high damage ammo out to extreme ranges. So even though the gun itself is lower damage, the ability to use the higher damage ammo would offset it?
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Kvo Vadis
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Posted - 2010.11.16 05:52:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Markus Reese Well, unless I am missing the math, but longer range does add up to more damage. For example, back to the rokh. You can use high damage ammo out to extreme ranges. So even though the gun itself is lower damage, the ability to use the higher damage ammo would offset it?
Advantage is not so big if you replace T2 long ammo by faction ammo
theoretical Rokh (All V, 8xRails 425 II, no DM, no TE/TC) Spike L - 194+30km 194DPS/1336 Volley Caldari Navy Lead L - 108+30km 223DPS/1536 Volley Caldari Navy Iridium L - 130+30km 195DPS/1344 Volley
"theoretical" Maelstrom (All V, 1400mm Howitzer II, no DM, no TE/TC) Tremor L - 108+44km 239DPS/5184 Volley
"theoretical" Abaddon (All V, Tachyon II, no DM, no TE/TC) Aurora L - 119+25km 304DPS/2732 Volley
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Kai Yuen
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Posted - 2010.11.16 07:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha Your changes *are* a number change. You're not saying suddenly "hybrid shots make them cry, slowing them down" which would be something other than a number change. I just don't understand this 'complete overhaul' cry when ALL you are suggesting is number changes to the guns and ammo. If you had an actual response to this, I was willing to listen but instead you want to cry about it and fail at insults. I argue, but I argue respectfully until you cross the line of douchebaggery. It's a lesson you learn as an adult.
Right, throw in a pretty new graphic and it will be exactly the same "overhaul" as projectiles got. Numbers are where it matters. DPS, Optimal, Falloff, Tracking, and Alpha. The rest is just fluff. You make drastic changes and its an overhaul. Your entire argument is nothing but semantics. Not a very "adult" thing to do.
Originally by: Kabaal S'sylistha
Your first edit is something approaching an actual argument. Your second is continuing in response to the perceived insults (I didn't offer a blaster suggestion because *I* don't have one nor do I have a comment on yours), and the third is flattery.
Let's go back to your previous post. Your first edit was something approaching an argument, right up until you started the semantics bull****, which wasn't really an argument at all. You had to think of something to argue about. Your second edit was just sheer ignorance, since I had just given you suggestions on the subject of blasters as someone who uses blasters. And the third was flattery.
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