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Junkie Babe
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:09:00 -
[1]
This seems like a really strange bonus to apply to a pve ship using large lasers,
Even the shortest ranges pulses will shoot many times the webifiers range.
It's borderline useless in longer ranged missions and even in short ranged missions almost everything will be dead before it gets that close.
And since Marauders have such weak sensors and aren't used in pvp, I can't see a reason for that bonus.
Was it introduced as a nerf or has it always been so?
Thank you
Regards Junkie babe |
Aamrr
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:13:00 -
[2]
Kronos has the same issue. I'm personally of the opinion that their web bonus should be swapped for the Bhaalgorn style web bonus, but there's probably a good reason why they didn't go that route.
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Niclas Solo
Amarr Love n Peace Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:21:00 -
[3]
You only really need the web when a ship is inside the web range, outside that range you normally track good enough to hit them. You can also get faction web and have a loki in fleet with links then you get up to 24km range, really nice :)
But for missions i don't see much use of that web, maybe it would help a little against angels?
But whoever told you they are not used/bad in pvp, don't listen to him again he have no clue what he is talking about. Weak sensor is the last thing you worry about when you kill stuff since it's not much harder for a falcon to jam a geddon then it's to jam a paladin.
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
I build my own rigs so they are free.
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Junkie Babe
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:27:00 -
[4]
It's just what I read on the forums and additionally lack of people posting pvp fits for them not that I'd need a fit though, I kinda learned how to fit ships in my time,
But wouldn't a range or tracking bonus be more applicable ?
Thank you
Regards Junkie babe |
Khan Dok
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:43:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Khan Dok on 22/11/2010 16:45:07 I take it that the developer(s) gave it a thought and asked; what is the weak points of large beams and rails. And concluded it was close range tracking. So to make the "perfect" PvE ship they decided to adress this weakness and came up with bonus to webs.
They kinda made a problem that was small into something big I think. Shooting sparrows with cannons more or less. Given that drones has always easilly been able to handle close range, it is a redundant bonus.
So giving these two marauders a damage bonus to small and medium drones would have been the better solution. Strengthening the tool that is the tool people use.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:43:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Junkie Babe But wouldn't a range or tracking bonus be more applicable ?
I totally agree. The Golem and Vargur make good use of all of their bonuses, and I think a switching the Pally/Kronos to a range web bonus would make more sense.
But then again, I think the Kronos needs a rework to be more Dominix-like (drone bonus, larger drone bay, etc.) since the Vindy has all but replaced the Kronos for PVP applications.
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Niclas Solo
Amarr Love n Peace Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Junkie Babe
But wouldn't a range or tracking bonus be more applicable ?
Yes that would be better for PVE for sure, but it would kill them as PVP ships.
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
I build my own rigs so they are free.
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Maeltstome
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.22 16:58:00 -
[8]
T2 frigs then cruisers just made a mockery of their t1 counter-parts. T2 BC's continued this trend with the ability to tank muliple targets for long period and deal enough damage to break even the most hardcore of battleship tanks.
With every t2 ship beig unoquivovally better than its t1 counter-part, CCP had the problem that t2 battleships where going to be literally nuclear bombs in comparison to every other sub-cap ship class. So they made them long-range PVE machines that where **** for PVP. And the Black-Ops PVP BS where made to be hit-and-run mobility ships rather than ships that could actually fight better than their t1 versions.
It's also the reason t3 sucks massive b*lls. T3 should be alot better than it is, but right now its just 1 ship hull capable of doing multiple different roles that a t2 one can do, but maybe a litle better in 1 area. With a few exceptions T3 is a big waist of money (in that the gallente dont have an ishtar t3 setup and the loki is incapable of out-performing a vagabond). The exceptions are roughly 1 setup per race/hull that makes them an incredible tank or do some insane DPS by sacrificing a ton of other area's.
So yea, T2 BS wont perform very well because they came pre-nerfed, and their bonuses are some half-baked attempt to make them look appealing but they dont really perform in real situations. Similar to T3 ships having a few different modules that let you choose from good stats/fitting with some useless bonus, like -25% to sig radius - or really abd stats/fitting/slots witha good bonus, like +25% to powergrid (and not enough slots to really abuse that extra PG).
So yea, it was a nerf of sorts, it's just always been nerfed from conception. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:21:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Maeltstome loki is incapable of out-performing a vagabond
Sure it is. The Loki can be better at solo work than a Vaga, better at sniping than a Munnin, and miles ahead of the Claymore at boosting. It just takes more player skill, thought, and isk than most people want to invest in a ship that could go explodey.
Quote: So yea, it was a nerf of sorts, it's just always been nerfed from conception.
The people who use them are plenty happy with the Vargur and Golem. The Paladin could just use a more useful bonus than the web one it has, but the Kronos goes completely against the Gallente PVE method.
For everything you'd want to do in PVP with a Marauder, there's a faction/pirate ship that does it better for the same price, though.
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:27:00 -
[10]
The web bonus was very cool since it was 99% before QR. You could kill even the frigs that get close with the guns, so you didn't need to swap drones in the end and could kill the annoying trigger frigs in WC without stage aggro.
The 90% web is still bread and butter for the Kronos because it reduces the window where you have tracking issues to 15-20km instead of 0-20km. I rarely used it on the Pala at all since, yeah stuff tends to die before it comes in range most of the time and the mission rats in amarr space are less close range. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Niclas Solo
Amarr Love n Peace Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Maeltstome
It's also the reason t3 sucks massive b*lls. T3 should be alot better than it is...
Let me guess, you love to fly T3 but you suck at it so you need the price to come down? if not learn to fly.
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
I build my own rigs so they are free.
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Junkie Babe
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:43:00 -
[12]
How viable are they for PVP in particular the paladin that I fly?
Thank you
Regards Junkie babe |
Aeo IV
Amarr Oneironautics Research Institute
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:48:00 -
[13]
I wasn't here when they introduced Marauders, but reading their description, I cannot help but wonder if they weren't intended to be just good, solo, pvp or small gang ships. The sensor strength was designed to be a weak point so they wouldn't be impossibly powerful.
However, game play for pvp has shifted away from solo or small gang pvp systems for the most part, and it's rendered the Marauder in a role it was never truly intended to fill.
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:53:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Seriously Bored on 22/11/2010 17:54:56
Originally by: Aeo IV However, game play for pvp has shifted away from solo or small gang pvp systems for the most part, and it's rendered the Marauder in a role it was never truly intended to fill.
Not to keep camping this thread but...the tractor bonus that every marauder gets clearly points to it being intended for PVE. Devs have also flat out stated that they were surprised and delighted to find people PVPing in Kronoses. They wouldn't have been surprised if it were intended for that.
ED: I might also add, I'm pretty sure whoever got the job of writing ship descriptions half-assed it. Just read the first sentence of the Drake's description.
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Maeltstome
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.22 17:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Niclas Solo
Originally by: Maeltstome
It's also the reason t3 sucks massive b*lls. T3 should be alot better than it is...
Let me guess, you love to fly T3 but you suck at it so you need the price to come down? if not learn to fly.
No i dont fly t3. I look at the price, look at the performance then buy 4 batleships instead and have more fun and do better.
I flew T2 cruisers because they where more agile/faster or had specific roles that made them preferable to flyin another ship. T3's lack of roles and inability to really shine in 1 particular area makes me no want to fly them. Id rather not fly 400mil worth of ship when i can buy t2 that will perform comaparably. Or fly a bigger T1 that will out-perform it.
btw, the loki can perform similarly to the vagabond: Similar EHP, Similar Speed, Similar Falloff, Simillar DPS (Similar = -/+ 10% in most cases) and has the only advantage that it can do this while having a longer range webifier on it.
in comparison the Vaga has huge EHP/DPS/Speed/Fitting/Resists/drone bay compared to the stabber. Which is mre to the point, T3 isnt bad, it jsut doesnt perform as well as it should. If price wasnt and issue, we'd all take T3 for the 10%-15% performance increase, but thats not how eve works. Ships have to justify how hard they are to market, otherwise you can fly T2 with faction fittings and get the same performance for the same price.
And the main thing i hear from people regarding T3 in a pvp sense it: "yea they're mostly ****, except the proteus, its like a mini megathron"
Then they go and buy a megathron instead. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Aeo IV
Amarr Oneironautics Research Institute
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Posted - 2010.11.22 18:17:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
Not to keep camping this thread but...the tractor bonus that every marauder gets clearly points to it being intended for PVE. Devs have also flat out stated that they were surprised and delighted to find people PVPing in Kronoses. They wouldn't have been surprised if it were intended for that.
They're devs, they're born surprised :P
Quote:
ED: I might also add, I'm pretty sure whoever got the job of writing ship descriptions half-assed it. Just read the first sentence of the Drake's description.
I wish they weren't.
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Niclas Solo
Amarr Love n Peace Snatch Victory
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Posted - 2010.11.22 18:25:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Maeltstome
Originally by: Niclas Solo
Originally by: Maeltstome
It's also the reason t3 sucks massive b*lls. T3 should be alot better than it is...
Let me guess, you love to fly T3 but you suck at it so you need the price to come down? if not learn to fly.
No i dont fly t3. I look at the price
That would explain it.
Loki is not a vaga with web bonus and it shouldn't be fit like one or used like one. web bonus is so much stronger then you seem to think, i guess EFT doesnt show it all?
Originally by: Thorian Baalnorn
I build my own rigs so they are free.
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r00fles
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Posted - 2010.11.22 18:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Maeltstome
And the main thing i hear from people regarding T3 in a pvp sense it: "yea they're mostly ****, except the proteus, its like a mini megathron"
Wrong. T3's are not 'mostly ****'. Loki makes a awesome webifier platform in fleets. As for Tengu and Legion go watch Endless Subversion's Drake 3.0.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.22 18:39:00 -
[19]
I had planned to buy a Paladin for pvp, since I love putting my money where my mouth is... but then they buffed the Bhaalgorn.
Oh yeah.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Junkie Babe
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Posted - 2010.11.22 18:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Aeo IV I wasn't here when they introduced Marauders, but reading their description, I cannot help but wonder if they weren't intended to be just good, solo, pvp or small gang ships. The sensor strength was designed to be a weak point so they wouldn't be impossibly powerful.
However, game play for pvp has shifted away from solo or small gang pvp systems for the most part, and it's rendered the Marauder in a role it was never truly intended to fill.
How would they be impossibly overpowered if they had decent sensors.
EVE in general is baised towards smaller ships even though they have less buffer and dps the increased lock time bigger ships have vs them often allows them to get under guns before lock and many can safely orbit outside of nuet range plus thier smaller sig radius makes them much harder to hit.
So I don't really see why Bs's can't have a t2 as good as frigs/cruisers/bc's etc
Thank you
Regards Junkie babe |
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King Rothgar
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:12:00 -
[21]
Edited by: King Rothgar on 22/11/2010 19:13:02 I used to run lvl4's with a paladin and on that paladin I had dual fed navy webs. Overloaded (and you can overload them practically all day), they reach to 18km. It's rather handy when using tachyons and they don't cost anything to repair either. Targets that are far away get insta-popped, those that spawn right next to you get webbed to 5m/s and also insta-pop. It's often an unused bonus though. Not sure why as it's epically powerful. That said, I too would actually prefer the bhaalgorn style range bonus on them. It's also a shame it has no real pvp usage. It has less tank than an abaddon/armageddon and has such pathetic sensor strength that you'd practically get perma jammed by a single batch of EC-300's. But it seems CCP really hates the idea of true T2 BS's since the BO's are in a very similar situation (inferior in every possible way to a t1 BS, even if you put a cloak on said t1 BS).
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Maeltstome
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2010.11.22 22:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Niclas Solo *Quotes only partial statements to make himself look more right*
That explains it
Your right, those few words do explain it. It's amazing how missing out words in a sentence changes their meaning. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Target Painter
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Posted - 2010.11.23 12:12:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Maeltstome btw, the loki can perform similarly to the vagabond: Similar EHP, Similar Speed, Similar Falloff, Simillar DPS (Similar = -/+ 10% in most cases) and has the only advantage that it can do this while having a longer range webifier on it.
I like how you take one relatively narrow role, try to pigeonhole the Loki into it, then throw your hands up when the Vagabond is a better Vagabond than a Loki. Stop the presses, wake up the president, news at 11. The Loki does a lot better being a superior version of the Cane (in any role), the booster Claymore, the gank Huginn/Rapier, the arty Muninn and probably a few others I haven't tried.
Quote: Which is mre to the point, T3 isnt bad, it jsut doesnt perform as well as it should. If price wasnt and issue, we'd all take T3 for the 10%-15% performance increase, but thats not how eve works. Ships have to justify how hard they are to market, otherwise you can fly T2 with faction fittings and get the same performance for the same price.
T1 invuln (25% resists): Under 50K isk. T2 invuln (30% resists): Around 1M isk. CN Invuln (37.5% resists): 400M isk. Estamel's Mod Invuln (50% resists): 15-20B isk.
Dimishing returns. For every extra percent of performance, you are paying exponentially more, whether you're talking about modules or ships. For some, the price justifies the cost. If you're broke, just fly cost-effective ships.
Quote: And the main thing i hear from people regarding T3 in a pvp sense it: "yea they're mostly ****, except the proteus, its like a mini megathron"
Then they go and buy a megathron instead.
LOL. Just LOL.
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fuxinos
Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2010.11.23 12:21:00 -
[24]
Edited by: fuxinos on 23/11/2010 12:21:17 Even worse, every Marauder has more capacitor capacity then its T1 version, except the Paladin.
Even with a 5% to capacitor capacity bonus, it has still less capacitor capacity then a Apocalypse.
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Enduros
Desard's Nation Cha0s Theory
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Posted - 2010.11.23 13:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 23/11/2010 12:21:17 Even worse, every Marauder has more capacitor capacity then its T1 version, except the Paladin.
Even with a 5% to capacitor capacity bonus, it has still less capacitor capacity then a Apocalypse.
It also runs 4 guns, instead of 8 - This one time, at gate camp, I shot a shuttle... |
Ogogov
Gallente Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2010.11.23 14:06:00 -
[26]
I, too, have never understood the useless web bonus on these ships.
on the Vindicator, it makes more sense as the ship is geared for PvP (well, only for those with more money than sense..)
But encouraging blaster use for a mission boat is idiotic.
And the Paladin has no issues with applying damage at range so why even have a web at all instead of something more useful?
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Templar Dane
Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2010.11.23 19:11:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Enduros
Originally by: fuxinos Edited by: fuxinos on 23/11/2010 12:21:17 Even worse, every Marauder has more capacitor capacity then its T1 version, except the Paladin.
Even with a 5% to capacitor capacity bonus, it has still less capacitor capacity then a Apocalypse.
It also runs 4 guns, instead of 8
Apoc also has a cap usage bonus. So, they use the same amount of cap to fire their guns.
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Enduros
Desard's Nation Cha0s Theory
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Posted - 2010.11.23 19:20:00 -
[28]
Here's the full story
Back in the day before the nano-nerf, webs were -90% instead of -50% we got now. Just FYI for those that don't. Back then a single web on the kronos would let you hit frigs with rails at 2km orbit. When the webs were changed, the bonus wasn't looked at.
This is also why people cry so much about large blasters and tracking. With 90% webs there was such no problem. - This one time, at gate camp, I shot a shuttle... |
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