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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:20:00 -
[1]
As everyone and their Warrior II knows, learning skills are potentially a nearly 6 million sp investment. That can take awhile. I know, I did it (yes even for Charisma).
The actual proposal is to remove all learning skills (with appropriate sp reimbursements) with the notable exception of the skill actually named 'Learning'.
Learning is a 1x multiplier skill that boosts attributes 2% per level.
The new proposed Learning skill might be moved to Social, but the important thing is to change the bonus to 20% and the multiplier to 2x (the sp reimbursement would be forced to cover this change before it could be spent elsewhere).
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Shandir
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:31:00 -
[2]
So, in effect, reduce the (potentially - not all at once, nor always trained this high) 6m investment to an (almost certain, probably mostly invested at the same time) 0.5m investment?
Changing it from being 2-3 months maximum (correct me if I'm wrong) to 10-15 days.
I like it.
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Biocross
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:47:00 -
[3]
Supported. Covers the "But its a choice!" crowd, and gets rid of a terrible system that only serves as a terrible barrier of entry to the game.
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Black Dranzer
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Posted - 2010.11.22 19:49:00 -
[4]
It's a "lesser of two evils" solution.. I'll support it on the grounds that it's better than what we've got, but I still believe we can do better.
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.11.22 20:01:00 -
[5]
Does your proposal include adjusting everyone's attributes +10, or lowering everyone's attributes when the skills are removed?
Support as long as everyone gets the same attributes as training the current learnings. Making training slower than it is now is not an option. |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.22 20:13:00 -
[6]
The exact value of the change per level might not be precise, but this is what it would effectively do:
10 (base attribute) + 10 (specific attribute learning skills) * 1.1 (old 'Learning' skill) = 22
And the change would make it:
10 (base) * 2 (new 'Learning' skill) = 20
So maybe 22-25%?
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Gallians
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Posted - 2010.11.22 20:25:00 -
[7]
Yeah it would have to be tuned to end up at the same overall speed or a bit faster but it seems like a good compromise. Supported.
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Shin Dari
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Posted - 2010.11.22 21:06:00 -
[8]
I see nothing wrong with this, and it makes people really think about choosing their attributes.
I support this.
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Ariz Black
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Posted - 2010.11.22 21:17:00 -
[9]
You all missed the fact that learning also boosts attribute gains from implants. So now my +5's will be +10's? That's balanced!
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.22 21:24:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ariz Black You all missed the fact that learning also boosts attribute gains from implants. So now my +5's will be +10's? That's balanced!
Current: (10 + 10 + 5)1.1= 27.5
Proposal: (10 +5)2= 30
Maybe that would be a good compromise in favor of a 20% bonus, implantless would lose a little, implanteds would gain a little. Either way it decreases overall the current issue in favor of more short term gains.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Ariz Black
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Posted - 2010.11.22 21:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Ariz Black You all missed the fact that learning also boosts attribute gains from implants. So now my +5's will be +10's? That's balanced!
Current: (10 + 10 + 5)1.1= 27.5
Proposal: (10 +5)2= 30
Maybe that would be a good compromise in favor of a 20% bonus, implantless would lose a little, implanteds would gain a little. Either way it decreases overall the current issue in favor of more short term gains.
You're still not getting it, but since you're quick with the numbers. Tell me the current SP gain per minute gap between a person with +2's and a person with +5's, and then the SP gap between the same with the 20% boost.
This is important because many pvp folk use LG implant sets (there are no HG versions for many sets) so are forced to have +2, whereas carebears in hisec have +5's all the time and don't care. Even if you don't use pirate implants you can't afford to continually replace +5's or maybe even +4's if you pvp.
This is just a boost to highsec and a nerf to nullsec, nothing more.
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Mishkaii
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Posted - 2010.11.22 21:53:00 -
[12]
Supported, the current system has to go.
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Diomedes Calypso
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Posted - 2010.11.22 22:05:00 -
[13]
I've always argued in favor of retaining the learning skills because I do think that after 4-4 they are a real choice in terms of pie now or more pie later.
However, the emotions of others must be taken into account and clearly many gamers are min/maxers and would have way too much angst from "wasting" potential learning rates that won't reach a break even for 6 months or more...
...well I'll stop.
I've been won over to the concept that anything that puts off new players from getting past the first few weeks or months of play, and all of these threads have convinced me that there is a sizable percentage of new players who get fairly put off by the skills.
I've always thought that the fees for the level 2 books were far far too high, and even moved towars thinking that plyers should start at 4 - 3
But I've come to realize that some nebishes just wouldn't see that its more important to get into a battle cruiser or interecepter a few weeks earlier to start having more fun instead of going up to 5-4 right off and losing maybe a week or so in the first 6 months while in better ships, and taking on the higher levels after you're sure you like the game. The notion of purposely taking a less efficient route just is too appalling to them.
So marketing trumps the lesson that fun in this game isn't about relative skill points
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.22 23:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ariz Black
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Ariz Black You all missed the fact that learning also boosts attribute gains from implants. So now my +5's will be +10's? That's balanced!
Current: (10 + 10 + 5)1.1= 27.5
Proposal: (10 +5)2= 30
Maybe that would be a good compromise in favor of a 20% bonus, implantless would lose a little, implanteds would gain a little. Either way it decreases overall the current issue in favor of more short term gains.
You're still not getting it, but since you're quick with the numbers. Tell me the current SP gain per minute gap between a person with +2's and a person with +5's, and then the SP gap between the same with the 20% boost.
This is important because many pvp folk use LG implant sets (there are no HG versions for many sets) so are forced to have +2, whereas carebears in hisec have +5's all the time and don't care. Even if you don't use pirate implants you can't afford to continually replace +5's or maybe even +4's if you pvp.
This is just a boost to highsec and a nerf to nullsec, nothing more.
That is a problem wih implants, not Learning skills. Maybe someone should make a Prop about it.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Hannah Uni
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Posted - 2010.11.22 23:53:00 -
[15]
I support
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Corina Jarr
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Posted - 2010.11.23 05:47:00 -
[16]
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would support this (with some tweaking of the % and implants).
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Seamus Donohue
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Posted - 2010.11.23 08:57:00 -
[17]
Supported in principle.
Alternate proposal:
1) "Learning", the skill, remains unchanged: it stays at a 2% bonus per level and remains a Rank 1 skill. 2) The other 10 skills in the Learning category are removed and any skillpoints invested are reimbursed. 3) A new skill called "Self Improvement" is introduced (the name of the skill is tentative; what we call it is unimportant).
Self Improvement (x1) SOCT advanced mental training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. Training in this skill allows a student to develop almost superhuman mental qualities. 2 point bonus to all attributes per skill level.
The overall effect on skilltraining is thus almost unchanged while still reducing the number of ranks in the Learning category from 21 to 2. I note that Anubis Xian's original proposal also reduces the number of ranks in the Learning category from 21 to 2. This alternate proposal should address concerns that Anubis Xian's original proposal is a HighSec buff or NullSec nerf because of the effect of implants. __________________________________________________ Survivor of Teskanen, fan of John Rourke. |
Jai Di
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Posted - 2010.11.23 09:32:00 -
[18]
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Xynthiar
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Posted - 2010.11.23 11:46:00 -
[19]
Anything that gets rid of the current system... |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.23 16:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Seamus Donohue Supported in principle.
Alternate proposal:
1) "Learning", the skill, remains unchanged: it stays at a 2% bonus per level and remains a Rank 1 skill. 2) The other 10 skills in the Learning category are removed and any skillpoints invested are reimbursed. 3) A new skill called "Self Improvement" is introduced (the name of the skill is tentative; what we call it is unimportant).
Self Improvement (x1) SOCT advanced mental training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. Training in this skill allows a student to develop almost superhuman mental qualities. 2 point bonus to all attributes per skill level.
The overall effect on skilltraining is thus almost unchanged while still reducing the number of ranks in the Learning category from 21 to 2. I note that Anubis Xian's original proposal also reduces the number of ranks in the Learning category from 21 to 2. This alternate proposal should address concerns that Anubis Xian's original proposal is a HighSec buff or NullSec nerf because of the effect of implants.
That does sound like a better solution. Keeping the dynamic the same seems to be the critical issue.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Doctero
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2010.11.23 20:59:00 -
[21]
Nice.
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Skanthra
Bath and Body Works Bed Bath and Beyond
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Posted - 2010.11.23 21:42:00 -
[22]
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James Marlow
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Posted - 2010.11.23 21:50:00 -
[23]
Edited by: James Marlow on 23/11/2010 21:51:11
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Seamus Donohue Supported in principle.
Alternate proposal:
1) "Learning", the skill, remains unchanged: it stays at a 2% bonus per level and remains a Rank 1 skill. 2) The other 10 skills in the Learning category are removed and any skillpoints invested are reimbursed. 3) A new skill called "Self Improvement" is introduced (the name of the skill is tentative; what we call it is unimportant).
Self Improvement (x1) SOCT advanced mental training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. Training in this skill allows a student to develop almost superhuman mental qualities. 2 point bonus to all attributes per skill level.
The overall effect on skilltraining is thus almost unchanged while still reducing the number of ranks in the Learning category from 21 to 2. I note that Anubis Xian's original proposal also reduces the number of ranks in the Learning category from 21 to 2. This alternate proposal should address concerns that Anubis Xian's original proposal is a HighSec buff or NullSec nerf because of the effect of implants.
That does sound like a better solution. Keeping the dynamic the same seems to be the critical issue.
Here's my only contention; doesn't it seem a little overpowered to have a total of ten attribute points allocated for training a skill that's only a 1x multiplier? I say make it at least a 4x. There might be an objection here since one of the main issues people raise with the learning skills is that they take time, but here's my thought. Making it a 4x multiplier makes leveling to IV not convenient, per se, but certainly doable, and level V a good chunk of time sacrificed for the advantages gained. This is more appropriate, I feel, since 1. with a single skill as powerful as this, it should take some time to max it out, 2. It is still considerably less time than training all the learning skills currently in existence, and 3. only those who really wanted it would have maxed skills. I understand leveling the playing field, but time-intensive skills exist for a reason: the game would be a lot less fun if everyone could specialize in everything, and likewise I think something as important as the most advanced level of a learning skill should be reserved for those who work for it.
Thoughts?
Edit: Forgot to support topic
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Tyslas
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Posted - 2010.11.24 00:04:00 -
[24]
Or leave Learning, but remove all the attribute skills and replace them with a "Study" skill that adds 2 to each attribute per level.
Supporting the overall idea none the less.
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Tray LiSans
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Posted - 2010.11.24 02:04:00 -
[25]
Supported, learning skills have been a barrier to entry for a lot of people I tried to get into the game. |
Whaddahell
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Posted - 2010.11.24 04:16:00 -
[26]
Hell yeah.. This is one of the first learning skill proposals that actually makes sense.
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Kilgarth
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Posted - 2010.11.24 04:19:00 -
[27]
Yes
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Gallion
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Posted - 2010.11.24 05:09:00 -
[28]
I Likes. Side Suggestion why not jus have some new 2-attribute Skills books.
Ie book that would give 2% more to Willpower and Intelligence per Level? ( i know their is only 5 attributes, but swing with me here)
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Cid SilverWing
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Posted - 2010.11.24 13:13:00 -
[29]
Supported!
Remodelling "Learning" to a +20% learning speed per level skill is most appropriate and, as mathemathically proven here, boosts training time moar.
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Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2010.11.24 15:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: James Marlow Edited by: James Marlow on 23/11/2010 21:51:11
Originally by: Anubis Xian
Originally by: Seamus Donohue Supported in principle.
Alternate proposal:
1) "Learning", the skill, remains unchanged: it stays at a 2% bonus per level and remains a Rank 1 skill. 2) The other 10 skills in the Learning category are removed and any skillpoints invested are reimbursed. 3) A new skill called "Self Improvement" is introduced (the name of the skill is tentative; what we call it is unimportant).
Self Improvement (x1) SOCT advanced mental training. While this training obviously is of great value to anyone, the most impressive results are achieved by students with great latent potential. Training in this skill allows a student to develop almost superhuman mental qualities. 2 point bonus to all attributes per skill level.
The overall effect on skilltraining is thus almost unchanged while still reducing the number of ranks in the Learning category from 21 to 2. I note that Anubis Xian's original proposal also reduces the number of ranks in the Learning category from 21 to 2. This alternate proposal should address concerns that Anubis Xian's original proposal is a HighSec buff or NullSec nerf because of the effect of implants.
That does sound like a better solution. Keeping the dynamic the same seems to be the critical issue.
Here's my only contention; doesn't it seem a little overpowered to have a total of ten attribute points allocated for training a skill that's only a 1x multiplier? I say make it at least a 4x. There might be an objection here since one of the main issues people raise with the learning skills is that they take time, but here's my thought. Making it a 4x multiplier makes leveling to IV not convenient, per se, but certainly doable, and level V a good chunk of time sacrificed for the advantages gained. This is more appropriate, I feel, since 1. with a single skill as powerful as this, it should take some time to max it out, 2. It is still considerably less time than training all the learning skills currently in existence, and 3. only those who really wanted it would have maxed skills. I understand leveling the playing field, but time-intensive skills exist for a reason: the game would be a lot less fun if everyone could specialize in everything, and likewise I think something as important as the most advanced level of a learning skill should be reserved for those who work for it.
Thoughts?
Edit: Forgot to support topic
I think any solution is going to seem extreme to those of us with 6m sp in Learning, but to address your concern and the better idea put forward:
Keep 'Learning' as is, but add two skills: Basic Self Improvement (+1 to all attribs, 1x) and Advanced Self Improvement. (+1 to all attribs, 2x, and reqs BSI lvl 4 and Learning lvl 4.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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