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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 24 post(s) |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:16:00 -
[1381]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: Mayhem Mugu now please explain why the CSM thinks that those of us with max learning skills should get a nerf while everyone else gets buffed. (everyone gets the skill point repayment)
I for one don't. If you look at the Learning skills proposal on the wiki, you'll see that one suggestion was a slightly more extreme remap be allowed, which would bring the max training rate up to 2760 (vs 2772), as well as an extra remap, and compensation for the cost of the skillbooks.
When CCP discussed their plans with us, I restated those points of concern. However, CCP did not think that they could expand the proposal and still make their QA deadlines for the Xmas release, and I have no reason to believe they were being disingenuous.
Any change to the game is going to be considered a buff by some and a nerf by others; this is really no different. And as someone who has trained learning skills extensively on both my mains, I do not consider this to be a nerf to me -- it is just not as much of an obvious buff as other people are getting.
Note also that the items in the CSM proposal that would render the nerf to 5/5's miniscule (-12 sp/hr) can be added by CCP at a later date. I believe they should do so, I told them so, and I will continue to tell them so.
Dude, 2 problems.
If everyone else got a bigger buff than you, you got nerfed. If CCP boosts Drake damage 20% and boosts the damage of every other ship 50%, they just nerfed the Drake.
2nd, stop harping about the 72 SP/hr. It's a meaningless distraction. If anything, vets should want a LOWER cap, as it makes the SP they've already accumulated more valuable (imagine if the cap were 200 SP/hr, for instance.)
Enjoyed your interview on Lost in EVE. A little wishy-washy, but you had some great moments (especially your 'EVE is a unique game' speech.)
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Abramul
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:19:00 -
[1382]
I, for one, welcome our new attribute overlords.
Only real downside I can see this having is a sudden influx of people flying stuff they're inexperienced in. But that's an upside, too.
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Mioelnir
Minmatar Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:21:00 -
[1383]
Edited by: Mioelnir on 26/11/2010 19:24:08
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Note also that the items in the CSM proposal that would render the nerf to 5/5's miniscule (-12 sp/hr) can be added by CCP at a later date. I believe they should do so, I told them so, and I will continue to tell them so.
At which point $THEY will scream bloody hell for those 12pts just as loud as they do now for the 72pts. Not because they need to or want to, just because they can.
I have 5/5 learnings aswell, on multiple characters, for a grand total of nearly 26m SP learnings payout due with that patch. And I do not frakkin care. The most this slows a single skill down is +-39.5hours on the rank 16s (from 0 to full), and those take so long that you do not care anymore once you are halfway through the skill. Similarly, noone is going to keel over from the 630720 SP one can get less per year max.
@CCP: any chance you will code the 'remove skill entirely from character' as a feature for the GM toolchain? I'd like to get rid of a few aesthetically unpleasant ones for years now, but my petitions always get turned down because the tools do not support it... [Edit] Clarification: Does not have to make the SP redistributable, just sucking them away would be fine.
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Grendel Gefahrstoffe
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:26:00 -
[1384]
so...
lemme get this straight
i'm going to loose approximately 38 attribute points, you're going to give me 12 and i'm supposed to be in awe and happy about a 'gift'????
seriously now, you can perty it up all you want, but a savage screw in the butt is a screw in the butt
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d3vo
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:35:00 -
[1385]
iLike. nom nom nom |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:35:00 -
[1386]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2010 19:37:27
Originally by: Grendel Gefahrstoffe so...
lemme get this straight
i'm going to loose approximately 38 attribute points, you're going to give me 12 and i'm supposed to be in awe and happy about a 'gift'????
No. You're going to lose approximately 38 skill-based attribute points (or, more accurately I suspect, 40 skill levels), and they're going to give you 60 more base attribute points in exchange. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Takseen
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:37:00 -
[1387]
Originally by: Grendel Gefahrstoffe so...
lemme get this straight
i'm going to loose approximately 38 attribute points, you're going to give me 12 and i'm supposed to be in awe and happy about a 'gift'????
seriously now, you can perty it up all you want, but a savage screw in the butt is a screw in the butt
I thought learning skills were meant to weed out impatient people who don't read instructions carefully. The dev blog was perfectly clear to anyone who took the time to read it, I would have thought.
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:45:00 -
[1388]
This is one of the best changes that CCP could make to Eve. It will greatly improve the marketability of the game, and as such greatly diminishes the pressure of the growing Microtransaction MMO market. Its been a long time coming, and its good to see CCP taking a moment to step back and make big meaningful changes.
I'm really looking forward to redistributing over 10M SP.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter - Blog got deleted when Evepress died - |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2010.11.26 19:57:00 -
[1389]
Edited by: Destination SkillQueue on 26/11/2010 19:58:25
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Grendel Gefahrstoffe so...
lemme get this straight
i'm going to loose approximately 38 attribute points, you're going to give me 12 and i'm supposed to be in awe and happy about a 'gift'????
seriously now, you can perty it up all you want, but a savage screw in the butt is a screw in the butt
I thought learning skills were meant to weed out impatient people who don't read instructions carefully. The dev blog was perfectly clear to anyone who took the time to read it, I would have thought.
Don't forget the uneducated and the immature. All of whom, based on this thread, somehow managed to bypass the learning skill filter and some of them even managed to train all the learning skills to maximum too. So much of for the argument of learning skills requiring intelligence to understand and utilize properly.
Based on this it seems like getting rid of learning skills was the right choice. CCP is just getting rid of a filter that wasn't working properly anyway and was instead filtering out people who enjoy fun and who want to actively play the game, instead of spinning a ship in a station while learning to learn skills.
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Swidgen
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:01:00 -
[1390]
Originally by: Ebisu Kami There was simply no reason not to train them. That is no diversity.
But plenty of people did not train them to 5. Both here and on other forums/blogs it seems most people are looking forward to redistributing about 2.5 mil SP. A distinct minority bothered to get them all up to 5, so there was a choice and that is diversity.
The reimbursement part doesn't bother me, it's fair enough. What bothers me is one of my advantages, i.e. I train more SP/hr than you, is now gone.
And since when do most players care about the noob experience? That argument cracks me up. |
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DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar Republic University
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:03:00 -
[1391]
My name is DeMichael Crimson and I do not support this CCP message.
More and more 'dumb' changes like this happening in this game constantly now which instead of making Eve better, is only making it more generic and not 'specialized'.
Reading this thread I see a lot of players saying they wasted time on training learning skills, if you decided to train them then it wasn't wasted time. Also funny how those players have just about trained up all the skills they wanted so it's a good move for them since they no longer need the learning skills. As for the new players, if they cant learn how to juggle or switch from learning skills to fitting/combat/ship skills and then back again, then they need to go to another game.
This game is turning into something I'm starting to detest and if the current way of thinking done by CCP continues, you'll probably start seeing more mature older vets let their accounts expire and will find that the majority of the 'NEW' player base is nothing more than a bunch of 13 year olds suffering from ADD who will quit this game within 1 year of playing.
I put in my time to train up learning skills which was supposed to be an advantage for long term older players. Why should a total green new player be able to train skills as quickly as me? WTF?
Attribute changes now? WTF?
Heh, I'm getting way too pi$$ed now to continue this reply thinking about all of the new Bullsh*t being rammed down our throats.
My name is DeMichael Crimson and I do not support this CCP message.
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Zaand Schtvaal
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:04:00 -
[1392]
Not that my opinion is ever going to be seen by anyone relegated to page 47, nor is it going to change anything since the update is already being implemented, but I feel like I need to get this off my chest.
I for one have to agree with the dissenters on this one. The whole appeal of EVE to many players is the complexity and level of commitment required. There is no such thing as a "casual" pilot. It's the running joke that EVE has a vertical learning curve and in my opinion it's necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff. I understand that CCP is a business and needs to bring in new customers to increase their profits, but I feel as if it is at the expense of the loyal veteran pilots.
Learning skills are not a requirement to play. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to queue them up. Personally when I started playing, I took the time to read the faq's and the forums and learned that they would help out drastically in the long run. So I trained some of the funner skills first, and then once I decided that EVE was worth a long term commitment, I took the time to max out learning skills. No, it wasn't any fun, but it was a long term investment and I am a better player now for it. I also spent a lot of very hard earned ISK early on in the game to purchase these skill books. Sure, a few tens of millions is not a lot to a seasoned pilot, but to someone who spent days grinding level 2's as a noob just to afford one book, it's a huge loss.
Now it feels as if CCP is spiting all of us loyal customers who were smart and patient in the past, just to hand the game over to new players on a silver platter. I welcome newcomers, but if they don't learn the dedication required to play and enjoy EVE early on, then it does neither us nor them any good.
EVE is very much a niche game, with a specific target player base. It is not like any other game on the market, both in originality and complexity, and that's why we play it. I am proud to play a game with such a selective crowd, and know that it is better than any other dime-a-dozen MMO. I was also proud every time I saw those level 5 grey boxes across the board in my learning tab because of the sacrifices that I made for them and because I knew that I was a better pod pilot for it.
I love EVE, and I still think that CCP is one of the best game developers that I have ever seen with one of the best development teams. I understand that to keep the game competitive it must be upgraded and modified; but doing so at the expense of dumbing it down is not the way to go about it. Embrace your fringe status and relish in it.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Spikes Chop Shop
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:07:00 -
[1393]
Originally by: Swidgen ...
And since when do most players care about the noob experience? That argument cracks me up.
not caring about noob experience makes you lonely and helpless when you get old. not good. ________________________________ : Forum Bore 'Em : Foamy The Squirrel - [jedi handwave] "There is no spoon." |
Elizabeth Mellon
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:13:00 -
[1394]
Not refunding people for purchased skill books is basically theft. As the blog entry points out - the decision to not refund OR reimburse for these books will cost Eve players 16 TRILLION ISK.
This is ISK that players have EARNED.
I don't find it acceptable for players, including me, to lose 16 TRILLION ISK. Thats equivalent to 40 THOUSAND PLEXES @ 400 MILL ISK.
Or to put it another way - 600,000 EUROS OF PLAYER MONEY.
This 'development' represents PAY DAY for CCP.
Not acceptable. And very disrespectful - especially to older players for whom some skillbooks cost MORE than a single PLEX!
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Dmoney3788
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:17:00 -
[1395]
Originally by: Zaand Schtvaal
Learning skills are not a requirement to play. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to queue them up.
This is true. However, most people with half a brain realized that training skills faster than the current speed was desired. I guess if diversity means "introduce annoying **** to make the game seem complex" then I'm glad that axing the learning skills will make the game less diverse.
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Zsel Gant
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:18:00 -
[1396]
Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon Not refunding people for purchased skill books is basically theft.
Posting stupid comments like that is basically eating babies. Yay Hyperbole!
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:19:00 -
[1397]
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson If everyone else got a bigger buff than you, you got nerfed. If CCP boosts Drake damage 20% and boosts the damage of every other ship 50%, they just nerfed the Drake.
This is a very human response. We all tend to get very upset when we get something, but someone else gets more, even if everyone is better off than they were before. There are some wonderful psych experiments that explore this.
I don't agree, however, that the example you give is equivalent. What is effectively being equalized here is the rate of improvement of characters, but note that after this change, for two characters of the same age, the one that trained the learning skills will be ahead of the one who didn't, and will remain ahead -- he just won't continue to increase his lead.
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson Enjoyed your interview on Lost in EVE. A little wishy-washy, but you had some great moments (especially your 'EVE is a unique game' speech.)
While I have strong opinions about a lot of things, I try to take the time to explain my reasoning in detail, as well as the counter-arguments. I think it's more effective than basically saying "Jayne, you ignorant sl*t", although perhaps not as much fun for me, or for the listener (or for Jayne).
But yes, EVE is a unique game. It is the only online game worthy of my time.
Originally by: Mioelnir At which point $THEY will scream bloody hell for those 12pts just as loud as they do now for the 72pts. Not because they need to or want to, just because they can.
Perhaps so, but I have an obligation as a CSM to advocate for the players. This means trying to get everyone the best possible deal on this and other changes to the game -- and making sure that the concerns of minorities are properly considered.
Confessions of a Noob Starship Politician The most expensive free trip to Iceland you'll ever win!
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Hemerson
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:23:00 -
[1398]
Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon Not refunding people for purchased skill books is basically theft. As the blog entry points out - the decision to not refund OR reimburse for these books will cost Eve players 16 TRILLION ISK.
This is ISK that players have EARNED.
I don't find it acceptable for players, including me, to lose 16 TRILLION ISK. Thats equivalent to 40 THOUSAND PLEXES @ 400 MILL ISK.
Or to put it another way - 600,000 EUROS OF PLAYER MONEY.
This 'development' represents PAY DAY for CCP.
Not acceptable. And very disrespectful - especially to older players for whom some skillbooks cost MORE than a single PLEX!
Originally by: Zaand Schtvaal ... Learning skills are not a requirement to play. No one held a gun to your head and forced you to queue them up. ...
CCP realy need think about this. I am feeling VERY frustrated right now.
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Pyro Ninja
Gallente Global Gang Bangers Two Inch Terror
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:24:00 -
[1399]
Vote HERE to see how eve feels about the new change
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Grendel Gefahrstoffe
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:30:00 -
[1400]
Edited by: Grendel Gefahrstoffe on 26/11/2010 20:31:08 Vote here to see what EVE thinks about reinbursing the isk paid for injected and or trained learning skills
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Shiddy Smell
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:41:00 -
[1401]
Edited by: Shiddy Smell on 26/11/2010 20:42:38 For everyone crying about their lost 72SP/hour, simply apply 72 of your reimbursed SP to your current skill plan every hour, or 1,728 every day, this way the stated grace period of 8.5 years will stand. This also applies to the people saying "what if you apply the SP to your current plan, then your circumstances change, altering your plan?". Adding them all to skills in one fell swoop makes YOU one of the "instant gratification" crowd. Alternatively, stop playing EvE like it's a job.
EDIT: Fat fingers.
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Dmoney3788
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:45:00 -
[1402]
Originally by: Pyro Ninja Vote HERE to see how eve feels about the new change
lol 93 Yes 11 no so far
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:46:00 -
[1403]
Originally by: Shiddy Smell Edited by: Shiddy Smell on 26/11/2010 20:42:38 For everyone crying about their lost 72SP/hour, simply apply 72 of your reimbursed SP to your current skill plan every hour, or 1,728 every day, this way the stated grace period of 8.5 years will stand. This also applies to the people saying "what if you apply the SP to your current plan, then your circumstances change, altering your plan?". Adding them all to skills in one fell swoop makes YOU one of the "instant gratification" crowd. Alternatively, stop playing EvE like it's a job.
EDIT: Fat fingers.
+1
This decision stinks, but not for the reason the 72 SP/hr crowd is mewling about it.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:47:00 -
[1404]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2010 20:51:51
Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon Not refunding people for purchased skill books is basically theft. As the blog entry points out - the decision to not refund OR reimburse for these books will cost Eve players 16 TRILLION ISK.
This is ISK that players have EARNED.
How have they earned it? How is it stolen? People got what they wanted from those ISKies. They no longer exist in the economy because they have served their purpose and been flushed out of the system. Their value replacement have been inserted and used according to purpose.
It doesn't cost players anything, because there is nothing left that holds that value. It has all been cycled through the system and, if anything, people are already being given what they paid for through the SP reimbursement and attribute addition.
Oh, and no: PLEX don't work that way, so no player money was lost or stolen either.
Originally by: Lliabron EVE is sandbox game. Please stop telling me how shoult I play it.
I'm not ù I'm simply telling you that the (meta)gameplay you've invented for yourself is nothing that the game provides, so you can't blame it or the developers for changes that mess up with your personal externally invented and tacked-on ideas.
Quote: Total skillpoints has no meaning to me.
Then this change won't matter, and "being competitive" has nothing to do with what other people gain in the patch. Your training at the same speed as they do makes no difference because you can still catch up and thus become competitive in terms of in-game performance. The only thing you'll have problem competing with is total SP. The only "competitive advantage" you lose in the switch-over is the ability to accrue total SP faster than some ù all other advantages still (as always) come down to the balancing act between specialisation and generalisation.
What you're doing is essentially the same as someone who collects black ships and considers having more of those a sign of being a better black-collector than others, and then complain when CCP decide to reskin a couple of ships so that your collection is no longer optimal (or even, oh the horror, tainted by green ships!). Have CCP screwed you over? No ù they've improved the graphical design and look of the game. You screwed yourself by inventing and competing in a metagame that makes zero difference in the game itself, and which CCP doesn't know about (or care about for that same reason) and thus will not take into consideration when making their improvements. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:50:00 -
[1405]
Originally by: Dmoney3788
Originally by: Pyro Ninja Vote HERE to see how eve feels about the new change
lol 93 Yes 11 no so far
As a sometimes-entertaining griefing blogger once wisely said: 'Always bet on stupid.'
I don't doubt that if CCP just announced that 'Everyone's getting 10M SP for free!' it would be wildly popular too.
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Elizabeth Mellon
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:52:00 -
[1406]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2010 20:48:43
Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon Not refunding people for purchased skill books is basically theft. As the blog entry points out - the decision to not refund OR reimburse for these books will cost Eve players 16 TRILLION ISK.
This is ISK that players have EARNED.
How have they earned it? How is it stolen? People got what they wanted from those ISKies. They no longer exist in the economy because they have served their purpose and been flushed out of the system. Their value replacement have been inserted and used according to purpose.
It doesn't cost players anything, because there is nothing left that holds that value. It has all been cycled through the system and, if anything, people are already being given what they paid for through the SP reimbursement and attribute addition.
Originally by: Lliabron EVE is sandbox game. Please stop telling me how shoult I play it.
I'm not ù I'm simply telling you that the (meta)gameplay you've invented for yourself is nothing that the game provides, so you can't blame it or the developers for changes that mess up with your personal externally invented and tacked-on ideas.
Quote: Total skillpoints has no meaning to me.
Then this change won't matter, and "being competitive" has nothing to do with what other people gain in the patch. Your training at the same speed as they do makes no difference because you can still catch up and thus become competitive in terms of in-game performance. The only thing you'll have problem competing with is total SP. The only "competitive advantage" you lose in the switch-over is the ability to accrue total SP faster than some ù all other advantages still (as always) come down to the balancing act between specialisation and generalisation.
What you're doing is essentially the same as someone who collects black ships and considers having more of those a sign of being a better black-collector than others, and then complain when CCP design to reskin a couple of ships so that your collection is no longer optimal (or even, oh the horror, tainted by green ships!). Have CCP screwed you over? No ù they've improved the graphical design and look of the game. You screwed yourself by inventing and competing in a metagame that makes zero difference in the game itself, and which CCP doesn't know about (or care about for that same reason) and thus will not take into consideration when making their improvements.
The value isnt GONE - if I were to sell my character - those skillbooks would have their original VALUE. God.
Why don't eve players stand up for themselves? CCP isnt going to give you free ISK for being a brown-nosed idiot.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
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Posted - 2010.11.26 20:57:00 -
[1407]
Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon Why don't eve players stand up for themselves? CCP isnt going to give you free ISK for being a brown-nosed idiot.
Hey now, it works for Chribba.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2010.11.26 21:01:00 -
[1408]
Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2010 21:02:11
Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon The value isnt GONE - if I were to sell my character - those skillbooks would have their original VALUE. God.
It's gone ù at least its in-game ISK value, so no ISK should be added in-game to compensate for it. It was gone the moment you injected the skillbooks, at which point they had served their purpose. It then turned into SP (and AP) ù points that you are now given back.
If you want to sell your character, price it accordingly, and you'll get your value back.
Oh, and I don't need "free ISK" from CCP ù that's why I'm not asking for it. Why do you need it, and why do you think that asking for something that will wreak havoc with the economy is the way to get it? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Hemerson
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.11.26 21:04:00 -
[1409]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 26/11/2010 20:51:51 How have they earned it? How is it stolen? People got what they wanted from those ISKies. They no longer exist in the economy because they have served their purpose and been flushed out of the system. Their value replacement have been inserted and used according to purpose...
U are the living prove that we should keep the learning sklills. So people like u will play some thing else, like trancendence
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Shawshanke
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Posted - 2010.11.26 21:05:00 -
[1410]
Originally by: Pyro Ninja Vote HERE to see how eve feels about the new change
104 yes 11 no
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